Rank Your California IM Residency Programs

[profunda]

The topic of tiers such as ucsf vs duke vs mass gen have been beatened to death. What are your opinions on other IM residency programs (how good, what tier, and how competitive for admissions) in california such as cedars sin, harbor, UCLA VA, ucd, ucsd, uci, usc, ca pac, st marys, santa clara valley, etc? how would you rank the california residencies based on tier and admission difficulty?

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[kenfused]

I'd probably put the UCs in rough order:
UCSF, UCLA, UCD, UCSD, UCI

for County programs:
Harbor-UCLA, Santa Clara, Olive View-UCLA

Other
Cedars Sinai, then the rest in no particular order.

It all depends on what you are looking for, and where in CA you want to be.

 

[Mustafa]

i've heard many say...

1) UCSF
2) Stanford
3) UCLA

 

[profunda]

mustafa, i and many heard these three ranked over and over again (actually i heard stanford hosp and ucla med center are at the same level).
my original question was to stay away from those three and take a look at residency programs OTHER THAN THESE 3.
kenfused, nice analysis. but how would you rank them without breaking them into 3 categories, but all together in 1 category? and how come you didnt discuss any affiliates (such as ucsf-fresno) and usc (and its affiliates)?

Originally posted by Mustafa
i've heard many say...

1) UCSF
2) Stanford
3) UCLA

 

[chichi]

From our internal medicine chair, he broke the academic programs down into three catagories:

UCSF
UCLA
Stanford

then

UCSD
UC Davis

then

USC
UC Irvine

I don't think he mentioned Harbor though it seems to have a good reputation on these forums at least.

I wouldn't mind going to any of the above. What's freaking all us CA people out is that we're constantly being told how hard it is to match into CA programs. Basically we were told (by the same guy who made this list) that by applying to CA you have to settle for a program that is one tier below where you would match nationally. Not encouraging news, really. I wonder if it's just med student paranoia making this worse or if it really IS that hard.

Would love to hear the perspective of some people who doing their IM res right now in CA. Thanks guys.

 

[scrub monkey]

from my faculty advisor and from the grapevine.

for academic programs
tops
ucsf and stanford - my advisor told me that i'd have to be in the top 1-2% of my class to get into these programs
ucla med center

mid
ucsd
ucd
uci (not so strong academically)

bottom
usc - supposed to be a bit of a zoo. lots of hands-on experience. lots of autonomy.
loma linda

as for community programs
tops: cedars-sinai, ucla-harbor, and santa clara valley med

overall, it seems like getting into a california program is reasonable for us med grads. lots of community programs. getting into a good academic program is not easy.

i've talked to a number of foreign med grads, and they don't think they'd even have a chance at california programs.

it seems that folks determined to go to california are willing to settle for 2nd rate programs if needed, when they could go to
much better programs out of state.

 

[bariume]

All of what has been said above is true. California is a very competitive place. However, aside from the big names, there are strong IM programs that are often overlooked. Such are: (in no order)

UCLA-VA Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System
Cedars Sinai
(the above two are rumored to have made a contract to combine - which would make it probably one of the largest and best programs in Southern California)
UCLA-Olive View
Scripps Clinic
Scripps Mercy
Santa Barbara Cottage
Santa Clara Valley
Kaiser Permanente

THe UCLA system IM programs are especially strong because there is so much inner rotation between the hospitals that you get a wide range of clinical exposure.

 

[gimmedog]

Highland in Oakland is known for being open to foreign grads and DO's. You get to live in the Bay Area and see an amazingly diverse population of patients. Ths faculty are all UCSF clinical faculty, and the people are really nice.

 

[profunda]

i can see how ucsf might require top 1-2%, but stanford? what makes "it" so great?

also, i swear i hear everything requires 1-2% top of class, like opthamology, derm, orthoped in general, mass gen anaesthesiology, hopkins general surgery, mayo ENT, etc etc list goes on. Isnt there only 2-3 people who are 1-2% top of their class? How is there enough 1-2% students in this country to fill all these positions that only take 1-2% top of class???

Originally posted by scrub monkey
from my faculty advisor and from the grapevine.

for academic programs
tops
ucsf and stanford - my advisor told me that i'd have to be in the top 1-2% of my class to get into these programs
ucla med center

mid
ucsd
ucd
uci (not so strong academically)

bottom
usc - supposed to be a bit of a zoo. lots of hands-on experience. lots of autonomy.
loma linda

as for community programs
tops: cedars-sinai, ucla-harbor, and santa clara valley med

overall, it seems like getting into a california program is reasonable for us med grads. lots of community programs. getting into a good academic program is not easy.

i've talked to a number of foreign med grads, and they don't think they'd even have a chance at california programs.

it seems that folks determined to go to california are willing to settle for 2nd rate programs if needed, when they could go to
much better programs out of state.

 

[scaredapplicant]

if you are considering the West Coast... don't forget WA and OR.... UW medicine program is actually ranked higher than UCLA and Stanford. OHSU's medicine program is also very strong... here are the ranks according to most PDs

1. UCSF
2. UW (ranked #6 in IM and #1 in primary care in the country)
3. UCLA
4. Stanford
5. OHSU (some people think OHSU has a stronger program that Stanford... but Stanford is a bigger name)
6. UCSD
7. Scripps Clinic La Jolla
8. UCLA Harbor and Cedar Sinai
9.UCLA-Oliveview
10. UCI

 

[scaredapplicant]

i forgot about UCD (it would be after Harborview/Cedar) and USC would be after (Oliveview)

 

[Renovar]

I would rank it like this:

UCSF
UW
Stanford
UCLA
UCSD
OHSU
USC
Harbour
UCD
Cedar
LaJolla
Santa Clara
UCSF Fresno
UCI
Kaiser

 

[profunda]

Harbor over UCD and Cedar, UCSF-Fresno over UCI, I dont think that's an accurate ranking. Not trying to be a prick, just disagreeing with that placement.

Originally posted by Renovar
I would rank it like this:

UCSF
UW
Stanford
UCLA
UCSD
OHSU
USC
Harbour
UCD
Cedar
LaJolla
Santa Clara
UCSF Fresno
UCI
Kaiser

 

[Renovar]

Originally posted by profunda
Harbor over UCD and Cedar, UCSF-Fresno over UCI, I dont think that's an accurate ranking. Not trying to be a prick, just disagreeing with that placement.

Well no, you are right it's not by quality of the program, but rather it's probabily more based on the "desirability" of the program based on how past seniors from my schools would rank them (this taking into consideration rep, location, and the program's nature etc).

The only reason to exactly rank a program by academic reputation alone (rather than a multitude of factors) from an applicant's perspective is having it as a gauge of competitiveness of its graduates to obtain good fellowship spots. With that said, you cant really rank one above another but rather putting them in groups. To me, the impression I got is that Harbor and UCD and Cedar are about the same in terms of pure academic reputation, so I use the popularity of the location and the popularity of the program as tie breakers, that's all.

 

[scaredapplicant]

yeah, UCI maybe desirable location wise (i love Newport Beach area) but the program is really not considered to be very good.... the Long Beach VA (one of their primary hospitals) is probably one of the worst VAs structurally.... very depressing... their fellowship placement is poor... most people seem to stay there for fellowship... they have not placed anyone in any top notch programs in areas like GI and Cards... they dont even advertise where they place their residents... (atypical for any big name program).... if u really desire that to be in So Cal and dont really care about fellowship, UCI would be a decent place to go...

 

[profunda]

Hi. Thank you for this discussion.

I was told cedars is more reputable at placing fellows, since it has more support from both ucla and mount sinai for research and strong "academic" faculties, compared to ucd and a county hospital like harbor. did i get wrong info?

although uci might not be good at placing fellows, ranking it below ucsf-fresno is a big far-fetched, no? i heard both the quality of medical/residency education and academic research at ucsf-fresno are horrible.

Originally posted by Renovar
Well no, you are right it's not by quality of the program, but rather it's probabily more based on the "desirability" of the program based on how past seniors from my schools would rank them (this taking into consideration rep, location, and the program's nature etc).

The only reason to exactly rank a program by academic reputation alone (rather than a multitude of factors) from an applicant's perspective is having it as a gauge of competitiveness of its graduates to obtain good fellowship spots. With that said, you cant really rank one above another but rather putting them in groups. To me, the impression I got is that Harbor and UCD and Cedar are about the same in terms of pure academic reputation, so I use the popularity of the location and the popularity of the program as tie breakers, that's all.

 

[emerson]

I heard from the past 4th years at my school that UCLA-Oliveview was very popular last year with many interviewees going back for second looks, but isn't it in danger of closing down? Anybody heard anything about this program and it's financial status?

I'm also interested in learning more about the other UCLA-affiliates (wla-va, harbor-ucla, cedars, etc). How close are their "affliliations" with UCLA and which ones are the more solid/respected programs? Also, how competitive are they?

 

[P Diddy]

Originally posted by scaredapplicant
i

1. UCSF
2. UW (ranked #6 in IM and #1 in primary care in the country)
3. UCLA
4. Stanford

interesting that you would rank UCLA above Stanford when UCLA didn't even fill last year (26/32).

I don't believe the 1% statistic either. While I had to rank in the top 1-2% of my class to be considered at Stanford, that's probably because I went to a lower tier med school. If I'd gone to Harvard/Hopkins etc, for med school, class rank would not have mattered as much.

Think of it this way - with multiple residents coming from Harvard etc at a given residency program, how could all of them have been in the 1-2 % of their class, even if ALL the top students applied to the same internal medicine program? Now realize that many of the top students at a given med school applied outside internal medicine, and the hypothesis explodes.

 

[profunda]

1000 viewed this thread. there's gotta be more response than this. there seems to be some ambiguity/disagreement in here. can we get more responses so we know what's true and what's not?

 

[Renovar]

Yea, as if it really matters. It really all comes down to whether you prefer SF vs LA vs anywhere else in SoCal, except top 4 or 5, the middle of the pack is pretty much interchangeable. One would go to a program over another because they have personal preferance of the place or the city.

 

[daphilster]

The top 1-2% for CA IM is crazy talk! That's only 4 people assumming you have a class of 200. How ridiculous. The top scorers at my school i would guestimate get 270-280 on step 1.

Assumming you guys are in a CA med school, have u guys actually seen match lists from UCs, Stanford, etc? There are people pouring into these medicine residencies... may not be top tier in CA, but its still somewhere in cali.. my friend is at UCSD & has always been a slacker and is about in the middle of his class. he's not even sweating where he's going to match.

 

[Seawolf]

Can anyone tell me more about the following programs and what is needed to get into one of them.....thanks.

Scripps Mercy
Scripps Clinic
UCSF Fresno

 

[profunda]

Does anyone know or care?

Originally posted by Seawolf
Can anyone tell me more about the following programs and what is needed to get into one of them.....thanks.

Scripps Mercy
Scripps Clinic
UCSF Fresno

 

[unregistered]

Is it that hard to match UCLA-main (not harbor)... i heard they didn't match last year b/c they have a rep for being a hard-a$$ program

 

[Renovar]

Originally posted by unregistered
Is it that hard to match UCLA-main (not harbor)... i heard they didn't match last year b/c they have a rep for being a hard-a$$ program

Yes, UCLA medical center is considered top notch program, and yes competition to match there is raging considering it is one of the most popular places for people to apply to.

They did not fill last year because of their PD whom I heard is #$%#@ and turned off a lot of candidates. They got more than 2k applications, but ranked too few candidates last year. Yes they are hardass, but so are many other first class programs (ie. Hopkins) that is very competitive.

 

[Skrubz]

I've heard a couple of you mention Fresno both positively and negatively. Could you guys expound on your opinions? If it helps, I'm looking at the program from the perspective of a prelim, not a categorical.

 

[chicamedica]

I'm interested in the UCLA-Olive View IM/EM combined program, with the intent on going on to do a fellowship (possibly cards and/or CCM). I suppose my question is, since this would be a community program, would that put me at a disadvantage wrt obtaining a cards fellowship as compared to having done such a residency at an academic program?

 

[Renovar]

Originally posted by chicamedica
I'm interested in the UCLA-Olive View IM/EM combined program, with the intent on going on to do a fellowship (possibly cards and/or CCM). I suppose my question is, since this would be a community program, would that put me at a disadvantage wrt obtaining a cards fellowship as compared to having done such a residency at an academic program?

Answer is yes. If you are set on a competitive fellowship like cards, you will need as much exposure and contact as you can to academic faculty of that particular specialty, and a combined IM/EM wont help you either.

 

[bariume]

Originally posted by chicamedica
I'm interested in the UCLA-Olive View IM/EM combined program, with the intent on going on to do a fellowship (possibly cards and/or CCM). I suppose my question is, since this would be a community program, would that put me at a disadvantage wrt obtaining a cards fellowship as compared to having done such a residency at an academic program?

I wasn't aware that a person in IM/EM could apply for subspecialty in cardiology. I had always figured you had to be straight IM to do that. But more power to you if this is possible.

However, I tend to take the opposing viewpoint from Renovar. Doing this program will give you the unusual advantage of being exposed to faculty at both Olive view and also UCLA CHS. You must remember that fellowship positions are decided not only by the faculty at the big hospital, but also by the faculty at outlying hospitals, especially since there are UCLA cardiology positions that are delegated to the Oliveview program. Additionally, Oliveview tends to have a more benign internship year than CHS, (meaning less on-call months) which gives you valuable time to get publications out in your internship year. If you were at the main hospital I can tell you for sure that you are going to be very hard pressed for time to do anything outside your residency training.

 

[chicamedica]

thanks for your replies, bariume and renovar--your viewpoints are both really helpful. Since residents of the IM/EM combined progs end up with both IM and EM board certifications, I think that doing a fellowship after IM/EM would be just as possible as after straight IM, wouldn't it? Well I know for a fact that CCM can definitely be done. Cards maybe isn't so popular with the IM/EM crowd since it's a longer fellowship and perhaps not so relevant to EM (although I think it's very relevant. well, maybe not relevant enough to do 3 more years). Anyways, I'm not sure that I want to do cards necessarily, but I just wanted to know, in case I do decide I love cards enough, that I would have a shot if I were to do the UCLA olive view prog.

Thanks guys.

 

[PalCareGrl]

Hi,

I'm in the midst of my second year at NSUCOM (a DO program in South Florida) and I'm trying to decide whether I should take the USMLE as well as the COMLEX next spring.

I am planning on applying to allopathic IM programs out west (CA, AZ, and NV). Do any of you know which programs accept COMLEX or if any of them require USMLE scores only (it is rumored that some programs won't consider DOs unless they take the USMLE). I'm trying to get some insight to help with my decision. I'm especially interested in programs in the San Diego area (UCSD, Scipps Mercy, and Green) and San Fran (UCSF,etc...)

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

THanks! PCG

 

[Lara]

I'm only MS2, but SD and SF should be popular and hence competitive programs - so I wouldn't limit myself by not taking the USMLE. It's also likely that a number of programs which "accept" the COMLEX would still in practice prefer an applicant with the USMLE. That's my two cents anyway.

 

[Moon]

I'm applying to most CA programs and this is what i got from my research
1. If you want to do fellowship or want to do academic medine, i would rank
tier 1: UCSF, Stanford, UCLA
tier 2: UCD, UCSD
tier 2.5: UCI
tier 3: USC, loma linda

2. For community based
tier 1: Stanford affi (Santa clara, Kaiser Santa clara), UCLA system (Cedar, Harbor, VA, Kaiser sunset), Script
tier 2: UCSF aff (St mary, Cal Pac, Kaiser Oakland, Highland, except Fresno), White Memorial,
Tier 3: no affiliation places and in the middle of nowhere (Kern, San Joaquin, UCSF fresno)

How do i compare tier 1 of community with tier 3 of academic? I guess it depends on what you want to do, where you want to be tortured the next 3 yrs. I would pick tier 1 community over tier 3 academic

 

[Renovar]

Originally posted by PalCareGrl
Hi,

I'm in the midst of my second year at NSUCOM (a DO program in South Florida) and I'm trying to decide whether I should take the USMLE as well as the COMLEX next spring.

I am planning on applying to allopathic IM programs out west (CA, AZ, and NV). Do any of you know which programs accept COMLEX or if any of them require USMLE scores only (it is rumored that some programs won't consider DOs unless they take the USMLE). I'm trying to get some insight to help with my decision. I'm especially interested in programs in the San Diego area (UCSD, Scipps Mercy, and Green) and San Fran (UCSF,etc...)

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

THanks! PCG

I would definitely take the USMLE's simply because it's california. While I dont expect AZ and NV programs to be too much problem with COMLEX alone, some of these high-end cali programs like UCSD and UCSF are definitely some of the most competitive places to match. If you want to go to one of those programs, not only do you have to take the USMLE, your bet is to do well (at least above national average, if not 230+) to get an interview. With the number of applications they get every year, there is absolutely no need to limit yourself any further than you have to.

 

[DilaudidOnTheRocksPlease]

Anyone interviewed at Santa Clara Valley Medical Center and USC recently? Debating whether to cancel my SCVMC and keep USC. Want to go into GI fellowship. Thanks!

 

[gutonc]

Dude...SRSLY? You necrobumped an 11 year old thread on your first post when there's a perfectly good "Program Specific Questions" thread right up there?