**rant** about the application process and the MCAT itself

[the_fella]

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[The_Sunny_Doc]

It's awful. They make a boatload of money from applicants, most of whom don't even get in! I've racked up $6,000 in CC debt (after 2 cycles), and that excludes MCAT, pre-med related expenses, business casual clothing, and flying to an interview. If you have to support yourself and can't live with your parents and eat for free, I can't even imagine how rough that must be. It's totally unfair.

Maybe someone here has ideas for you. I'm interested in hearing them as well.

 

[the_fella]

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[el_duderino]

Isn't this what FAP is for?

 

[the_fella]

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[buffdoc]

Idk if this is strictly the right place for this, so if it's not, feel free to move it.

AAMC and AACOMAS both like to say they encourage minority and underrepresented applicants to apply. Yet they go out of their way to put every possible obstacle in our way. The MCAT costs $250, which is crazy. This can be reduced to $100, which is still outrageous. My income is significantly below the Federal Poverty Level, so $100 is a significant amount of money for me. It's also virtually impossible to obtain (legally, at least) quality MCAT prep materials without having to pay a ridiculous sum. Then on top of that every school has an application fee. Someone is getting rich from this, and it ain't me. The medical industry cares only about the Benjamins. This seems like a coordinated action to keep the riffraff and the filthy poor people out of the medical profession. It's just so frustrating at times.

I'm a little confused...you have a bachelor's degree and you are living below the poverty level?

I was working when studying for the MCAT, and used cheap, self-study methods for it. And I did pretty well - it can be done.

There are a variety of financing methods, however I would only recommend this if you are confident that you will do well. There is no sense in forking out the money just to see how well you will do on the exam.

I also only applied to one school which saved $$$, but first you just need to focus on the MCAT.

 

[the_fella]

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[buffdoc]

My BA (and MA) was in German, which as it turns out is a useless degree. A BA isn't a guarantee of income. Did you know that many adjunct professors (most of whom have a PhD) qualify for food stamps? I was also lied to by a number of people in the department, but I digress. How much did you make when studying for the MCAT? My yearly income is less than $2,000. With the fee reduction, they actually allow you to apply to several schools for free, but that doesn't cover the secondaries.

I find that hard to believe. Do you live in the U.S.? When I was studying for the MCAT I was an engineer, and working with plenty of people with foreign degrees who were working with H1-B visas. If your BA won't cut it for a U.S. job, it won't cut it for a medical school application either.

You could make more than $2000 just by working at Mc Donald's.

 

[Old&InTheWay]

My BA (and MA) was in German, which as it turns out is a useless degree. A BA isn't a guarantee of income. Did you know that many adjunct professors (most of whom have a PhD) qualify for food stamps? I was also lied to by a number of people in the department, but I digress. How much did you make when studying for the MCAT? My yearly income is less than $2,000. With the fee reduction, they actually allow you to apply to several schools for free, but that doesn't cover the secondaries.

Many (most?) schools waive secondary fees from people who qualify for FAP. You still have to cover travel expenses to attend interviews, buy a suit, etc., but to not have to pay any application fees should allow you to apply broadly and save several thousand dollars.

Also, I will be really surprised if your claim that many adjunct professors qualify for food stamps is true (unless they are single parents of 6 or 7 kids). In my state, a single person cannot gross more than $15-16k/year in income to be eligible.

 

[Zelda840]

I honestly feel your pain. Each step of the process is another financial road block. I also live below the poverty line, and I think it's one of those things that people will never really understand until they've been there. It's not just the things you have to purchase, but also the time lost from work for volunteering, etc. I got old versions of mcat prep books from goodwill. FAP helped a ton (most schools will waive the secondary fee for those of us with FAP). But yeah.....I read the interview attire threads and see people posting ads for $200 shoes and it does get a bit depressing at times. My mom bought my suit for me and I felt horrible that she had to spend $200 TOTAL. I've been so fortunate to get interviews to two schools in my own city, but I had to use all of my savings plus borrow some money for my one OOS interview. I honestly don't know how I'll get to another one should the opportunity present itself, much less how I'd be able to move. I just keep putting one foot in front of the other and trying to have faith that I'll somehow make it through. Good luck to you, and try not to let the finances wear you down. There is a bright side. In both of the interviews I've had so far, they've mentioned how admirable it is that I've overcome so many obstacles to come this far. It's not every day that a high school drop out on welfare makes it to medical school, but I believe that it's possible.

 

[MinnesotaMrs]

The library has some great and even new MCAT books for all subjects (in my area at least) and if they don't you can recommend they order it for the library. As for the money thing now's the time to get a retail part time job if only for a month or two to cover the excess expenses- Costco in particular pays great and is hiring now. If that is not an option, you could try selling old books or what have you on Amazon.

 

[MSmentor018]

I help a lot of people and I am going to have to call bulls$%t on your post

2000/yr doesn't sound right. so you only make $40/wk. do you mean 2000/mo?
unemployment pays $190-348/wk http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/05/12/unemployment-benefits-best-worst-states/
7.25/hr minimum wage job x 40 hrs/wk x 52 wk is almost 14,000 and this without overtime.
panhandeling makes 30,000/yr. http://www.best-reviewer.com/how-much-money-does-panhandler-make-3244.htm#.VHNO08lYptU
you have a masters, you're having trouble finding a job? how about translating for a business? teaching high school? general substitute teaching?
paper route, mowing lawns? the lawn service charges $60/mo and takes him <30 min
I seriously doubt a college professor is doing the stamps unless there's a ton of kids and ex wife involved. avg salary is $80,000 or so
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Professor,_Postsecondary_/_Higher_Education/Salary
maybe you gotta move and change your cost of living

minority and underrepresented has nothing to do with this early portion of the process. it's about $$$
the application process blows. yes it's all about money. there's no doubt about that. the entire thing is a weeding out process but one that you have to do. i always hate seeing students get rolled but it sounds like your frustrated at the overall process and haven't even started the process. if you want to be a physician you got to get over yourself and these hurdles. this is nothing compared to the medical 4 yr med school mountain and residency you'll be climbing

there's a entire set of mcat books on amazon for $36 incl shipping (and looks new) and it took me .08 seconds on google.
that's not ridiculous at all, have you even tried looking?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1609786122/ref=sr_1_2_twi_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1416843114&sr=8-2&keywords=mcat books

 

[QofQuimica]

Dude(tte), time to get off SDN and get a job; that's what most of the rest of us who weren't independently wealthy did. There's no reason why you can't work at least part time while studying for the MCAT. Yeah, you need a few months to study part time, but it's not necessary to put the rest of your entire life on hold for the MCAT. Agree with whomever suggested that you look into interpreting, tutoring or teaching German if taking a retail type of job is beneath you. Also agree that it is not necessary to spend a lot of money on prep materials. You can get everything you need (legally) used or at your local library.

Unfortunately, medical training also doesn't get cheaper or easier the further you go. The MCAT is by far the cheapest test you'll take for the rest of your medical career. USMLE fees are even more outrageous, and right now taking my specialty boards is costing me more than you currently earn in an entire year. These fees are a fact of life. You have to make peace with paying the exhorbitant price of admission if you want to be a physician. :-/

 

[DoctressM]

So yeah I am poor too.
I got FAP and applied to 19 schools but my stats are very low and have gotten rejections so far, and two schools on hold. No interviews.

The money thing was the worst while taking pre-med classes because working 35 hours a week plus attending lectures, recitation, labs, plus put in the time to study, plus if you live independently take care of house/food/partner.
I got FAP, which waived 15 of the schools. Paid for the other four.
NO mcat course, got some second hand books, used the library ones, downloaded PDF practice tests from websites, collected them from friends, etc.
THERE ARE WAYS you just gotta be creative and such

26k in debt at this point. May have to do a MS if I dont get in this round because at least I will have a degree instead of taking more undergrad courses. I did my undergrad, then took non-degree pre-med courses because made up my mind kinda late. It has been a long road.
Now I am sitting here waiting to see if something happens. Hoping for the best. Making plan B to preapre for the worst.

Wished I had more clinical experience but I CANNOT volunteer more since I have to work. I tried getting jobs at Doctors office. They pay around $5 below what I was making tutoring. Cannot justify the drop when I got bills to pay.

This is my rant.

Rant over.

 

[Goro]

Work, save your money, and then apply.

Armed Forces are a great way of getting scholarship money, as in GI Bill. Plus, Adcoms have a soft spot for vets.

Contrary to popular belief, tuition and application fees are chump change to medical schools (well, to MD schools). Any well funded department will make more money in indirects from R01's than can be had by a class of 150 paying $50K/year.

One more tip: barista at Starbucks!

On the flip side, I do know adjunct faculty who can't land a tenure track spot and have become "freeway flyers". They only get paid ~ $3K/ class, and so in a bad year only make ~$15-18K.

But a degree in German should be worth something to the airlines, the State Dep't, the CIA, and companies with business in Germany.

Idk if this is strictly the right place for this, so if it's not, feel free to move it.

AAMC and AACOMAS both like to say they encourage minority and underrepresented applicants to apply. Yet they go out of their way to put every possible obstacle in our way. The MCAT costs $250, which is crazy. This can be reduced to $100, which is still outrageous. My income is significantly below the Federal Poverty Level, so $100 is a significant amount of money for me. It's also virtually impossible to obtain (legally, at least) quality MCAT prep materials without having to pay a ridiculous sum. Then on top of that every school has an application fee. Someone is getting rich from this, and it ain't me. The medical industry cares only about the Benjamins. This seems like a coordinated action to keep the riffraff and the filthy poor people out of the medical profession. It's just so frustrating at times.

 

[BHB2008]

It's awful. They make a boatload of money from applicants, most of whom don't even get in!l.

Most applicants do get in somewhere.

Increase revenue, decrease expenses. Only way to do it. Hang in there!

 

[AlteredScale]

One more tip: barista at Starbucks!

Xmas season is a great time to apply, stores always need additional baristas willing to pick up hours.

Also, drive thru stores are much more fast paced but will make time go by very fast! -fellow ex-barista/supervisor

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

Most applicants do get in somewhere.

Increase revenue, decrease expenses. Only way to do it. Hang in there!

That's reassuring! I thought I read that 60% of applicants don't get accepted to any school.

 

[BHB2008]

Of all students applying to both MD and DO programs, 55% are accepted somewhere. Source: AACOM.

http://www.aacom.org/reports-programs-initiatives/aacom-reports/applicants

It's buried in one of those reports, but I've seen it twice.

 

[jl lin]

I'm a little confused...you have a bachelor's degree and you are living below the poverty level?

I was working when studying for the MCAT, and used cheap, self-study methods for it. And I did pretty well - it can be done.

There are a variety of financing methods, however I would only recommend this if you are confident that you will do well. There is no sense in forking out the money just to see how well you will do on the exam.

I also only applied to one school which saved $$$, but first you just need to focus on the MCAT.

You applied to one medical school? Were you in a PB w/ direct linkage? Also, how long ago did you apply?

MCAT is changing. Some people are projecting that in some ways it may be easier b/c they are putting social sciences on it. I don't think it will go down as easier. If anything, I think it will be more thinking-application-intensive. We'll see; but certainly not counting on passing by way of what would be mere science recognition. Biochem will probably be huge comparatively.
Scoring will be different, and we'll see what that looks like after the first official crew has suffered through it.

Thing is, things change. So much is nothing like it was 7, 10, or more years ago.

Either way OP, do what you can to get a job. You can do something while getting certified as a school teacher. There are sales jobs that are glad for anyone with a bachelor's degree.
I guess I am curious as to why you majored in German in the first place--I mean, unless you had a lot of family money, and you just wanted to take something that you thought you'd like?

Apparently, given your initial complaint, I'd say that wasn't the issue, so why did you major in German--as opposed to say just minor in it?

 

[the_fella]

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[the_fella]

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[the_fella]

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[the_fella]

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[Dr.Sticks]

Of all students applying to both MD and DO programs, 55% are accepted somewhere. Source: AACOM.

http://www.aacom.org/reports-programs-initiatives/aacom-reports/applicants

It's buried in one of those reports, but I've seen it twice.

That's not bad at all! Hell, I wonder how many of those rejected are plain crazy people, people with no clinical experience, shadow hours, low grades, etc.. Of course you have people with good mcat and gpa rejected too, not saying it doesn't happen.

As for the OP, well I don't understand how the fact it is expensive specifically targets minorities. Does it put the poor students at a disadvantage? Certainly
But yeah dude, it is what it is I guess.. If you're broke you will have to rely on lots of scholarships, and loans.
This is why I don't really believe in taking gap years, it's best to get done with your education when you parents still support you.
Then again most of us don't habe rich parents, I don't lol.

 

[ehwhatsupdoc]

My job is very part time (I only work two days per week). Your salary data is for a tenured or tenure track professor. My state requires that substitutes be licensed. http://education.ohio.gov/Topics/Teaching/Educator-Licensure/Audiences/Substitute-Licensure

Also: http://www.salon.com/2014/09/21/pro..._the_shocking_true_story_of_academia_in_2014/

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/17/pro..._it_is_time_to_talk_seriously_about_adjuncts/

http://adjunctcrisis.com/2014/09/22...-the-shocking-true-story-of-academia-in-2014/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kate-quick/professor-working-poor_b_4645217.html

and http://www.npr.org/2012/05/15/152751116/why-so-many-ph-d-s-are-on-food-stamps

I definitely understand the sense of unfairness when it comes to the whole medical school process. The avg parental income of Medical School matriculants is over $110,000, which is more than twice the average income of American households. Clearly medicine today is for the upper-class and elites, not the middle-class and working poor. It's funny the biggest need for physicians is in underserved areas, places where the privileged would never set foot in. There aren't enough programs to help enable a large number of applicants from middle to lower socioeconomic status to be competitive enough to make it into medical school. Yes there is a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality that will help go a long way for those who can't afford it or don't have the same preparation, but it's pretty hard to compete with kids who can afford multiple mcat prep courses, tutoring, post baccs, SMPs all paid for by mom and dad. If I were you, utilize any free resources you can find. Look at online lectures like found on Khan Academy (which has free lectures specific to the 2015 MCAT) also look for free prep books on a file sharing site, you could possibly even get free exams there (I'm pretty sure downloading such files isn't illegal, but uploading is).

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

I definitely understand the sense of unfairness when it comes to the whole medical school process. The avg parental income of Medical School matriculants is over $110,000, which is more than twice the average income of American households. Clearly medicine today is for the upper-class and elites, not the middle-class and working poor. It's funny the biggest need for physicians is in underserved areas, places where the privileged would never set foot in. There aren't enough programs to help enable a large number of applicants from middle to lower socioeconomic status to be competitive enough to make it into medical school. Yes there is a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" mentality that will help go a long way for those who can't afford it or don't have the same preparation, but it's pretty hard to compete with kids who can afford multiple mcat prep courses, tutoring, post baccs, SMPs all paid for by mom and dad. If I were you, utilize any free resources you can find. Look at online lectures like found on Khan Academy (which has free lectures specific to the 2015 MCAT) also look for free prep books on a file sharing site, you could possibly even get free exams there (I'm pretty sure downloading such files isn't illegal, but uploading is).

That's an eye opener! It underscores why FAP and other initiatives are important tools for diversifying the entering class of med schools.

 

[BHB2008]

Yes, and I think 'ehwhatsupdoc' hit the nail on the head! Medical licensing and healthcare is regulated by the government, which enables institutions to produce doctors. These institutions are often explicitly tasked with and created to provide healthcare to underserved populations. This is why socioeconomic and ethnic backgrounds are so important. Similar to schools recruiting rural students for rural healthcare programs, it is reasonable to believe that people from a particular community are more likely to serve that community. Rarely do you see an ORM student complaining about racial/socioeconomic admission preference keeping him or her back from serving poor ethnic populations. Health education isn't tasked with the goal of securing a privileged future for those raised in privilege. Not emphasizing socioeconomic factors in the admissions process would surely undermine many medical schools stated mission policies.

 

[journalistdoingscience]

Sorry, this may sound harsh but I find it difficult to have a lot of sympathy. You work two days a week? Maybe you should look into getting a second job. There's absolutely no reason to be making less than $2K a year unless you are disabled and cannot work (and then you would be eligible for governmental disability benefits). I had to work all through high school and college and have had to fully support myself for years and it's absolutely doable. I have a B.S. in Journalism but work at a large academic medical center doing research. I got started in a lab during my post-bac where I made $10/hour and babysat part-time to pay my rent WHILE still taking classes. I've also served at restaurants and worked freelance journo gigs to make money. I'm very lucky now to have a full-time research position but it took me a long time to get here and it was a lot of hard work. You need to exhaust all of your options to find something that will pay you enough to live on. It's not impossible. Nannying jobs through an agency pay up to 35K (sometimes more!) a year in some cities and you can find them through any number of free websites. Check out your school's job board for research position listings. I got my first job in a lab just by applying to everything I could find and then emailing people like crazy. Get your resume up on LinkedIn and try connecting with people. This isn't the time to sit back and bemoan your situation, I agree that it sucks but you don't have to teach, there are so many things you can do just by virtue of the fact that you have a Bachelor's. You need to get out there and find yourself a better situation.

 

[xffan624]

The foreign service process takes a long time. Time that I need to devote to the MCAT. I am also fundamentally opposed to the military. I refuse to have any part of an organization whose primary purpose is to kill others.

Said by someone who has no idea what the military actually does.

Regardless OP, continue b!tching about how broke you are while trying to take the MCAT and applying to medical school on $2K a year.

Just a word of warning, should you actually make it through medical school and see patients some of whom will probably be veterans. Don't imply that you think they're professional killers, you'll only be demonstrating your ignorance and they probably wouldn't accept your treatment recommendations.

 

[the_fella]

REDACTED by orders of wholeheartedly

 

[jl lin]

Yes, and I think 'ehwhatsupdoc' hit the nail on the head! Medical licensing and healthcare is regulated by the government, which enables institutions to produce doctors. These institutions are often explicitly tasked with and created to provide healthcare to underserved populations. This is why socioeconomic and ethnic backgrounds are so important. Similar to schools recruiting rural students for rural healthcare programs, it is reasonable to believe that people from a particular community are more likely to serve that community. Rarely do you see an ORM student complaining about racial/socioeconomic admission preference keeping him or her back from serving poor ethnic populations. Health education isn't tasked with the goal of securing a privileged future for those raised in privilege. Not emphasizing socioeconomic factors in the admissions process would surely undermine many medical schools stated mission policies.

Solid points.

 

[jl lin]

I never once said everyone in the military is a killer. They are merely part of an organization whose primary purpose is to kill others. They may not directly kill people, but they are still supporting an organization that does. Much like not everyone working at the NSA violates the Constitution, but the NSA as an organization seems to do so as a rule.

Sorry. The military's main purpose is to defend and serve. As the Marine Corp says re: their purpose: "Defending our nation at home. Protecting her interests abroad." They are the SEMPER FIDELIS. That's beyond honorable. A good marine has the heart of a servant, and that requires courage. In fact, service, great service, will at some point/s require courage.

Servants don't want to kill. If I had to defend my family, I would not want to kill, but I would be willing to die to defend them.
Any organization has to be ready to defend--starting with the smallest organization, and that is the family unit.

At any rate, the situation with procuring certification is tough. I know about working in an adjunct position, and I would have loved to make even what you sharing in doing it; b/c it was such a joy for me. I make more as an RN than working as adjunct. Mostly, I did it for the joy of doing it and working w/ students. Also, as adjunct, you don't always get paid for all your prep time as a teacher.

Can you look into getting a scribe position? What about working as a Pt Care Tech in a ED? There is a lot to see in a busy ED. What about working as a teacher's assistant? You are overqualified, but it's a job, and you'd be helping people. There are middle and HS students that struggle with English, and there are assistants that can help with these students for pay or that work as volunteers. Many people move into positions after volunteering.

 

[MSmentor018]

My job is very part time (I only work two days per week).

many, many students, myself included work/volunteer/study for endless hours pre med. that's part of the sweat of getting in
our scribes make $20/hr. a college educated person like yourself would be perfect for the gig. my scribe just got his acceptance letter yesterday. he works full time, school, has a roommate to off set the bills. pretty standard story
during intern yr, we pulled 230 hrs in the ER per mo, plus 20 for lecture. surgeons notoriously do >80 hr/wk for months on end. plus have to study for boards, we had monthly test, the usual specialty reading, family kids, life.....etc. what do you do with the rest of your time??? there's gotta be ways to improve your outlook and get you on track. you have 1 thing that a lot of us don't have anymore, the luxury of time. so use it wisely

 

[the_fella]

REDACTED by orders of wholeheartedly

 

[journalistdoingscience]

What is a scribe and how does one get a job like that?

Google is your friend, dude or dudette. Seriously, get off SDN and do some research!!!

 

[xffan624]

I never once said everyone in the military is a killer. They are merely part of an organization whose primary purpose is to kill others. They may not directly kill people, but they are still supporting an organization that does. Much like not everyone working at the NSA violates the Constitution, but the NSA as an organization seems to do so as a rule.

Once again, your ignorance is showing. The primary purpose of the military is to defend the nation. Congress and the president decide how and where we do that. Newsflash: It doesn't always involve killing people.

 

[WaterPog]

...our scribes make $20/hr....

Where are you that scribes are making $20/hr? I spent the last 2 years working as a scribe and while the agency charged $20+/hr the scribe only saw half of that. I was making $16/hr for the 2nd half of my time there only because the contractor pulled out and I was able to work directly for the provider group.

That being said, even $10/hr would be a big step up for OP and scribing has been one of the best experiences I've had as a pre-med and a frequent talking point during my interviews. I push it hard to everyone who asks me for pre-med advice and would love to see it become a "requirement" in place of standard shadowing because it is such a deeper and tighter interaction with the physician(s); you get a much more meaningful view of what it's like to actually work as a physician than with shadowing.

 

[MSmentor018]

Where are you that scribes are making $20/hr? I spent the last 2 years working as a scribe and while the agency charged $20+/hr the scribe only saw half of that. I was making $16/hr for the 2nd half of my time there only because the contractor pulled out and I was able to work directly for the provider group.

That being said, even $10/hr would be a big step up for OP and scribing has been one of the best experiences I've had as a pre-med and a frequent talking point during my interviews. I push it hard to everyone who asks me for pre-med advice and would love to see it become a "requirement" in place of standard shadowing because it is such a deeper and tighter interaction with the physician(s); you get a much more meaningful view of what it's like to actually work as a physician than with shadowing.

I stand corrected, you 're right. that's what the company charges me, I think last night they said they start at $10-12 dep on experience and the lead scribe gets more?
undercutting the company and going direct....strong work!
the two companies we use here are MSA and scribeamerica. google and you'll see them
absolutely you learn a ton more scribing than shadowing. I call out all my assessments and teach just like if they're students. the patients like that too.

 

[the_fella]

REDACTED by orders of wholeheartedly

 

[jl lin]

And how do they defend the nation? By invading (innocent) countries and killing others. Iraq has nothing to do with defending the US. Nor did Vietnam. The last war that had anything to do with "defending us" was WWII. If you could manage to stop bending over backwards to lick the troops' balls, you might be able to see reality. Btw, I never said 100% of their mission involves killing people. I just said that's their primary purpose. By way of analogy: my car's primary purpose is getting me places. It's also used for hauling cargo, but hauling cargo is very little of what it does. The troops' primary purpose is killing others, but that's certainly not all they do. I never said it is.

Holy cow. I don't even know where to begin with your response. It's NOT their purpose; it's a consequence of the function of the true purpose/s. You have a very oversimplified understanding of history and defense utilization and services. Planet earth and its inhabitants do not live and function within a utopia. As such, defense utilization is necessary. You wouldn't be living in a free republic w/o it. And there is no way in this imperfect planet to maintain freedom w/o it. If that were so, world peace would be a piece of cake; since we would be living in a utopia. All of human history and current history incontrovertibly and regularly demonstrates this. There is no such thing as a utopia under the current constructs of this planet. Get over that. Just like, under the current constructs of this planet and its inhabitants, disease will never be completed obliterated. That is the sad reality under which we currently live.

 

[MrLogan13]

And how do they defend the nation? By invading (innocent) countries and killing others. Iraq has nothing to do with defending the US. Nor did Vietnam. The last war that had anything to do with "defending us" was WWII. If you could manage to stop bending over backwards to lick the troops' balls, you might be able to see reality. Btw, I never said 100% of their mission involves killing people. I just said that's their primary purpose. By way of analogy: my car's primary purpose is getting me places. It's also used for hauling cargo, but hauling cargo is very little of what it does. The troops' primary purpose is killing others, but that's certainly not all they do. I never said it is.

This is an overly simplistic worldview as nothing in life is purely black and white.

There's no doubt that serving in the Armed Forces can and does involve armed conflict, killing itself is not the primary mission of the Armed Forces. Rather, it is consequence of their primary mission: defending the country AND its interests. Just like your car analogy, anything else that may happen while carrying out that primary purpose is secondary. The deterrence of force is usually enough.

I am weary of such overly broad generalizations. I was a medic and my primary mission was force health protection. Anything else was secondary to that.

 

[Promethean]

Yes, applying to medical schools, taking the MCAT, interviews, the whole process... it is expensive, especially for people who are not from upper middle class or higher backgrounds. Yes, people with money do experience privilege with regard to the admissions process. I say the following as kindly as is humanly possible: Get over it.

Part of being a doctor is being able to find solutions to difficult problems, not just the ones on your physics exams, but in your life and those of your patients. You have to be willing to do a little more than is reasonable or even normal sometimes. You have to have the attitude that you can find a way, and then you have to set about doing it. No one is owed the opportunity to become a physician. The accommodations provided in the form of fee waivers and reductions are an attempt to ensure that the opportunity is within the reach of as many as possible who would dare to pursue it, while still requiring effort on the part of the candidates.

There are plenty of free or very low cost MCAT materials. There are endless ways to earn a few extra hundred dollars for the application and interview process. I'm not foolish enough to believe that jobs are easy for everyone to get, but a person who is willing to work can find ways to make money. Shovel snow, mow some yards, clean some houses. It will take you longer and be harder to pull yourself up by your bootstraps than someone who was born to privilege. So, what? There is nothing to do about it but to either give up hope or else step up and do what it takes to change your fate. This isn't to say that the world shouldn't be more fair, just to acknowledge that it isn't... so, make the best of it anyway.

 

[oldanddone]

chin up OP.

1. economic disadvantage: all that is published on it in terms of medicine says you are in an uphill battle, and that hopefully not in just lipservice, you are wanted to join the community of medicine for your experience and likely your dedication to give back to poor communities. there's been some great leads for possible jobs in the thread, and of course some 'bootstraps' advice and even discounting/disbelieving the realities of poverty (how much you make, how much a prof can make). i hope some of the leads for making some dollars pan out. preparing for mcat is so important, and of course a prep course makes that a lot easier, but some mentoring from folks who have been through the prep course, and some old materials and some questionable practice tests will hopefully do the trick to give you a sense of what practice scores you are getting and how to optimize them. take heed of the 'bootstraps' and disbelief comments that you have received too. these comments point to the predominant culture in medicine. do not openly question it, or stand out as different from it as much as possible while you are going through the process, as the tall poppies are sure to be mowed down as violently as any military organization will train to take out whatever it deems needs to be eliminated. which brings me to point 2, or the derailed point along the way.

2. it's ok to be against violence and military. particularly if you have learned/trained in ways of being or thinking that oppose such a thing. i'm thinking of the italian anarchist feminists opposing the rest of the anarchists who felt violence was inevitable as a way to progress ideals. there are non-violent positions in this world. i think it seems disingenuous to say that a military complex does not focus on ability to be violent and triumph through violence. remember though the history of how non-violent positions go down when they are 'honoured'. the way 'conscientious objectors' were treated in world war two was just deplorable. keep that in mind when you enter medical culture which would be conservative leaning and therefore generally supportive of military. as well, conservative culture (i.e. wasp or white anglo saxon protestant culture of professionals no matter what their race or religion or ethnicity) is generally supportive of not showing opposition too strongly. if you stand up for being anti-military, you are a tall poppy again, and expect to get machine-gunned. for holding a generally different viewpoint, or even any viewpoint too strongly.

3. taking personal responsibility is huge in medicine. to the point where as a discipline and culture it is very hard to take in concepts of systemic oppression, or environmental pressures/inequalities. so any analysis you have of systemic oppression will make you a tall poppy. when you talk of misfortunes, don't blame at all, because if you blame at all, it needs to be yourself, in this system of taking full ownership. so don't blame the german profs for your misfortune. it goes against this engrained idea of taking full ownership and responsibility. even if they totally did lie to you about prospects. in medical culture it is up to each person to scramble and talk to others, build their networks of people they can ask for the scoop on how things work, so as to be able to be prepared without having to ask. there are some books that help like '100 mistakes not to make on the wards' that teaches some of the culture that may not be engrained in you from coming from a medical family where parents were docs (like many in med classes) or not getting along so well with the cliques of med school because of subtle class differences and therefore not being cued in as quickly. some of the comments you have read here talk to that kind of ability to research the 'real life' issues of how to arrange yourself with little means. this is actually part of medical culture that says no shirking personal responsibility (even at the cost of being blind to social/environmental inequality).

4. find places you will get nurturing only, not necessarily mixed with negativity. there are folks in medicine who get you and where you're at..you've read some of those too. possibly consider creating a 'stitch n bitch' (the name of a knitting group in med school that was designed to blow off steam in a safe space) amongst folks who get you. there are articles out there too that talk of the unfairness in medicine. those are sometimes helpful to find, knowing that others can see through the whole damn thing too.

chin tucked down, collar turned up and shoulder into the wind!

 

[the_fella]

"Holy cow. I don't even know where to begin with your response. It's NOT their purpose; it's a consequence of the function of the true purpose/s. You have a very oversimplified understanding of history and defense utilization and services. Planet earth and its inhabitants do not live and function within a utopia. As such, defense utilization is necessary. You wouldn't be living in a free republic w/o it. And there is no way in this imperfect planet to maintain freedom w/o it. If that were so, world peace would be a piece of cake; since we would be living in a utopia. All of human history and current history incontrovertibly and regularly demonstrates this. There is no such thing as a utopia under the current constructs of this planet. Get over that. Just like, under the current constructs of this planet and its inhabitants, disease will never be completed obliterated. That is the sad reality under which we currently live."

I'd respond to this, but the "tone" would probably not be approved by wholeheartedly, so I must leave it alone.

 

[jl lin]

"Holy cow. I don't even know where to begin with your response. It's NOT their purpose; it's a consequence of the function of the true purpose/s. You have a very oversimplified understanding of history and defense utilization and services. Planet earth and its inhabitants do not live and function within a utopia. As such, defense utilization is necessary. You wouldn't be living in a free republic w/o it. And there is no way in this imperfect planet to maintain freedom w/o it. If that were so, world peace would be a piece of cake; since we would be living in a utopia. All of human history and current history incontrovertibly and regularly demonstrates this. There is no such thing as a utopia under the current constructs of this planet. Get over that. Just like, under the current constructs of this planet and its inhabitants, disease will never be completed obliterated. That is the sad reality under which we currently live."

I'd respond to this, but the "tone" would probably not be approved by wholeheartedly, so I must leave it alone.

Whatever. One of the best sentences ever: "Reality is your friend."

You didn't start off by stating that you are a Quaker or some other kind of pacifist. Your wording was problematic. As pointed out by others and me, you put an unfair spin on military service. Was this deliberate?

At any rate, about your original post, well, you were given some good advice. It's up to you what you do with it.
I feel like the tone of your initial post seemed a tad whiney--like you were being victimized somehow. This is going to make things tough for you as you strive to move forward in medicine. If anything will smack the whiney whimpers out of a person other than the military, it is medicine and healthcare--especially when you get up into the core heat of it. In general, I have found military people often do well in medicine and the healthcare fields. Learn to adapt to this kind of structure, b/c by and large, that is terrain in which you may be heading. Being more avant-garde in medicine is the exception and NOT the rule.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Dude(tte), time to get off SDN and get a job; that's what most of the rest of us who weren't independently wealthy did. There's no reason why you can't work at least part time while studying for the MCAT. Yeah, you need a few months to study part time, but it's not necessary to put the rest of your entire life on hold for the MCAT. Agree with whomever suggested that you look into interpreting, tutoring or teaching German if taking a retail type of job is beneath you. Also agree that it is not necessary to spend a lot of money on prep materials. You can get everything you need (legally) used or at your local library.

Unfortunately, medical training also doesn't get cheaper or easier the further you go. The MCAT is by far the cheapest test you'll take for the rest of your medical career. USMLE fees are even more outrageous, and right now taking my specialty boards is costing me more than you currently earn in an entire year. These fees are a fact of life. You have to make peace with paying the exhorbitant price of admission if you want to be a physician. :-/

Wow, I didn't realize those tests were that expensive!

 

[QofQuimica]

Wow, I didn't realize those tests were that expensive!

That doesn't even include my prep materials, which were hand-me-downs, or my travel expenses. Altogether it's going to cost ~$4000-$5000 from start to finish for me to get board certified. You can see why I have a strong incentive to pass the first time.

 

[oldanddone]

even with residency salaries being a healthy 50K, and attending incomes being over 100K, I get that there is reason to complain about a 5K enterprise. Not only is it 5K which is a big pricetag, but with loan repayments and such these days, it might not even be as manageable as it might seem with the better money coming in. but it's manageable, definitely more manageable and less hopeless as those pre-med days of income of less than 10K in a year with a graduate degree and a job market that was terrible and student loans constantly being deferred. It just does not compare. Medicine has been a blessing in terms of not having to worry about money.

 

[oldanddone]

OP, you clearly marked the post a *rant*, that you were blowing off steam, and well-deserved, to struggle with policies that pay lip-service to diversity but then don't truly acknowledge the hurdles. believe me there are some who work on these issues who are well aware of the hypocrisy of this situation, deans of equity, people involved in the bridging programmes that are available at some schools and such, and academics writing articles, who do try to work on it. these folks have opinions and develop academia that supports your comment on seeing the duality there and being rightly frustrated.

I didn't see anything in what you wrote that would be deserving of change/erasure.

What you said about poverty, about the military, were all fairly common viewpoints.
I was surprised that you were getting such a hassle for stating that you do not agree with the military - many people don't! The question was asked what you would do with patients who are the military, and the same could be asked of those who are very promilitary who come across pacifist patients. I think we all agree that we express personal opinions on sdn, but we become patient-centred for patients. we do things like be anonymous on sdn so that our personal pov doesn't affect our ability to remain neutral and patient-centred for patients.

And others on the thread were a little forceful with their own views that could seem classist and were not too helpful to a person who is saying they are ranting d/t struggling with classism and feeling down about it.

At any rate, it was your choice to erase the posts. I find that interesting, from the perspective of you having become silenced around issues of class. I am just at this point writing up research that started during med school on not coming from advantage and being in medicine, now that I am finished residency. Seeing the dynamics on sdn has been energizing for me as I take up this writeup task, as it often shows the mainstream ideology in medicine in a way that is unvarnished, as the forum is anonymous. there are the vitriolic 'debates' about affirmative action, and a consistent silencing of talking about experiences of classism.

the anonymity has also served well over the years around making the application process more transparent. as a person who does not have the right 'cultural capital' (circle of friends who are insiders in terms of knowing the application process), an anonymous board helped immensely in learning the ins and outs of how to get into medical school, even when i didn't come from a family of doctors or a circle of friends who had insider knowledge. the american boards (sdn) are particularly helpful just by the sheer numbers participating.

anonymous boards can be invaluable in terms of resource sharing. i remember being on a waitlist in canada, and our message board on a canadian server, as a group, was able to figure out how to determine the order of the waitlist, whether it was moving, and to predict when/whether we would get a call. we even as a group figured out that there were more seats in the class about to be announced by the govt, and contacted the govt to ask them to announce/release the seats in time for that application cycle - some of us were accepted to the states, and would have had to start in july only to find out by august that they were accepted at home with lower tuition (50K vs 10K). there is real power in these boards, for people from disadvantage. there's also a resinscription of the norms of medical culture.

op, pm me sometime. I think i might start gathering a group of the folks who might want to create an 'off-forum' email list to share info and experiences and frustrations.