Rant: Nurses

[Goro]

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Lol... You never know; you might need to use some of it in your last rotation.

That's med school for you. 3+3 and another 3+ years residency would have been more than enough, but for some reason they add another 2 bogus years to it.

@Goro When was the Flexner report again? Do you think that thing is still applicable after... wait... 100 years?

About 1915. Parts of it are still applicable, but the medical world has moved on from 1915. For example, does the average doctor need to know what a histo-pathology slide looks like?

 

[Lawpy]

Yeah, yeah, but I don't view the gap between various o chem courses as the same as the gap between majors. I've taken science courses at CC, UMass Boston, BU, and Harvard Extension and while there is definitely a gradient, again, some of those majors are essentially vanity projects by whimsical faculty which contain no content beyond the understanding of a middle schooler. Of course the MCAT is more standardized, but the flip side of the argument is that you're talking years of sGPA data versus a single test that doesn't penalize guessing, which introduces a modest degree of randomness in another way.

But yeah, I obviously wouldn't worry about the lib arts student with a 526. Either way, I'm fine with disagreeing.

It requires test taking skills and strong intuition to guess accurately and score high on the MCAT. Test taking skills/intuition/innate intelligence etc. are what makes it difficult and rare for people to score high on the MCAT, and these factors counter any randomness involved. However, GPA is affected by a lot of variability and is much easier to game (e.g. go to an easy undergrad with rampant grade inflation/easy professors and get a high GPA quickly).

I'm sure schools are aware of the MCAT being a single, one-day test... but so are the Step exams, shelf exams, boards, licensing exams etc. The situational factors encountered on test day are readily minimized with solid practice.

 

[bioboy23]

give me 10 physics courses in place of 1 Orgo Chem.

Aw hell naw. I loved orgo. It is so interesting how different brains work

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Organic chemistry is the foundation of medicine.

Nah, anatomy is. You have to know what something is before you can know what it does (Physiology) and you need those two before you figure out what is going wrong (pathology).

If orgo is the "bench press" for premed, then what is biochem?

The squat, and I would say Anatomy and Physiology is the deadlift.

I doubt I’ll ever need to use the MCAT in med school but here we are

Biochem and hormones, those are pretty high yield medical topics that I saw a decent amount of on the MCAT.

 

[CloverBale]

Biochem and hormones, those are pretty high yield medical topics that I saw a decent amount of on the MCAT.

haha it was a joke..cuss why would I need the mcat ( a test) in med school you know 😛?

 

[Welshman]

If orgo is the "bench press" for premed, then what is biochem?

Yeah, yeah, but I don't view the gap between various o chem courses as the same as the gap between majors. I've taken science courses at CC, UMass Boston, BU, and Harvard Extension and while there is definitely a gradient, again, some of those majors are essentially vanity projects by whimsical faculty which contain no content beyond the understanding of a middle schooler. Of course the MCAT is more standardized, but the flip side of the argument is that you're talking years of sGPA data versus a single test that doesn't penalize guessing, which introduces a modest degree of randomness in another way.

But yeah, I obviously wouldn't worry about the lib arts student with a 526. Either way, I'm fine with disagreeing.


I was more taking a shot at "(anything) studies", but my point isn't that those majors are for dumb people. It's that graduating with them doesn't prove much about what you're working with one way or the other. You proved yourself on the mcat, and presumably, in your prereqs.

Shout out to BU grade deflation

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

Orgo is like the clean and jerk in this analogy - Can it help you in your endeavors later on? Yeah, to some degree, but there are other courses/exercises which are much higher yield with much lower risk (joint damage/premed GPA nuking).

 

[Disciple of Sattar]

I like ochem

 

[Verity]

Nurses in the schools in my state DO take organic chemistry to an intense and condensed degree. It's definitely a weeder course to see how much and how quickly they can shove vast amounts of information into their noggin. Granted, they never cover mechanisms/arrow push, but they do cover reactions. It's called Nursing Chemistry, and it includes general chemistry, organic chemistry, and biochemsitry over the course of one semester. At least at my uni, the course was 5 credit hours and met every day but Friday and went through a fair amount of information at an incredibly fast pace.

 

[Oh_Gee]

I was a nursing a student and then obviously went pre-med. You don't need organic for nursing, it is outside of the scope of a lot of what they're required to know. More emphasis is placed on anatomy/physiology and the years of clinical courses.

i know that was probs a typo but it was still funny to read lol

 

[deomnibusdubitandum]

Should Nursing school revise there requirements?

I'd suggest adding a requirement on understanding the difference between there and their as well. Just kidding.... mostly

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

I know this isn't what you're intending to talk about, but "liberal arts students" can be science majors. We just also have to learn how to read, write, and speak well. I think what you're trying to refer to is humanities and social science majors.

Yep, you're right. Excuse my lack of specificity.

 

[Kr#36]

You guys are crazy, o chem and physics were my two favorite science courses.

 

[getdown]

If orgo is the "bench press" for premed, then what is biochem?

the mindf**k

P.S. I hated physics and ochem

 

[HomeSkool]

I'm convinced that while Ochem and physics are to a large degree weed-out courses, they are also very useful in teaching one how to reason through difficult concepts. Medical school taught me how to think about medicine. Undergrad taught me how to think.

My boss between undergrad and med school said, "Your degree doesn't tell me what you know. It tells me the level at which you're able to learn." The man has a PhD in mol bio. I learned more mol bio that year than I even thought possible.

 

[857770]

It is true that the rigor depends on the college/university. Where I am the private universities grade all homework. They even let students whom are averaging C and below write papers on any topic in physics. So, it is very rare that a student will get below a B grade. Obviously, these students won't have a good grasp of the material unless they do a lot of learning on their own.

 

[ciestar]

i know that was probs a typo but it was still funny to read lol

I typo literally everything. 😛

 

[Whale2018]

I wasn’t expecting some negativity toward my rant. I should have been more informed that nurses should at least take a survey of organic chemistry. I’ve known having a basic background will help nurses have a good foundation instead of wasting doctors their time.

 

[Dochopeful13]

I wasn’t expecting some negativity toward my rant. I should have been more informed that nurses should at least take a survey of organic chemistry. I’ve known having a basic background will help nurses have a good foundation instead of wasting doctors their time.

Dude first why do you even care what pre reqs nurses take. Second how is not knowing how to push arrows causing nurses to waste a doctor's time?

 

[Oso]

I should have been more informed that nurses should at least take a survey of organic chemistry. I’ve known having a basic background will help nurses have a good foundation instead of wasting doctors their time.

how about instead of nurses taking orgo, you take a grammar class?

 

[Dochopeful13]

how about instead of nurses taking orgo, you take a grammar class?

This made my day hahaha

 

[W19]

I wasn’t expecting some negativity toward my rant. I should have been more informed that nurses should at least take a survey of organic chemistry. I’ve known having a basic background will help nurses have a good foundation instead of wasting doctors their time.

Not all... I didn't

 

[VincentAdultman]

The squat, and I would say Anatomy and Physiology is the deadlift.

You even lift bro?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You even lift bro?

Every morning like clockwork. Gotta show those ortho bros what’s up 😉

 

[bioboy23]

Second how is not knowing how to push arrows causing nurses to waste a doctor's time?

You don't arrow push in the wards? Smh you must go to a Carib school

 

[dr_kateb]

I passed organic chemistry 1, silly.

Soooo a C-?

Back to the original question... because they’re not trying to be doctors...? You know the ones that actually do the diagnosing and curing for the most part? How’s this even a question?

I never understood the fuss about organic either. I liked it better than general chem by a lot.

 

[Dochopeful13]

You don't arrow push in the wards? Smh you must go to a Carib school

Haha touché. Is it me or are there a lot of big egos in this forum? I have noticed some people still in undergrad who really do think they are God's gift to medicine. I am an older career changer and my experience in the real world is no one really cares about these pissing contests. You go to work to pay the bills and have some semblance of life. Besides that who cares. Just my two cents.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Haha touché. Is it me or are there a lot of big egos in this forum? I have noticed some people still in undergrad who really do think they are God's gift to medicine. I am an older career changer and my experience in the real world is no one really cares about these pissing contests. You go to work to pay the bills and have some semblance of life. Besides that who cares. Just my two cents.

That’s part of growing up: realizing you’re just part of a larger team/community, and there will always be someone as or more important than you.

 

[Blanky]

Nurses in the schools in my state DO take organic chemistry to an intense and condensed degree. It's definitely a weeder course to see how much and how quickly they can shove vast amounts of information into their noggin. Granted, they never cover mechanisms/arrow push, but they do cover reactions. It's called Nursing Chemistry, and it includes general chemistry, organic chemistry, and biochemsitry over the course of one semester. At least at my uni, the course was 5 credit hours and met every day but Friday and went through a fair amount of information at an incredibly fast pace.

Lol. I took Chemistry for Nursing before I started the Gen chem/orgo/ biochem and they are not comparable.

 

[bioboy23]

Haha touché. Is it me or are there a lot of big egos in this forum? I have noticed some people still in undergrad who really do think they are God's gift to medicine. I am an older career changer and my experience in the real world is no one really cares about these pissing contests. You go to work to pay the bills and have some semblance of life. Besides that who cares. Just my two cents.

That’s part of growing up: realizing you’re just part of a larger team/community, and there will always be someone as or more important than you.

I agree with matt9:35. I’m not here to say I’m the most mature person ever but I think it’s usually just a maturity issue. I have found the same thing to be true in my classes and it is very frustrating. Luckily, it seems like the good guys actually make it through to med-schools at a higher rate.

 

[Whale2018]

Soooo a C-?

Back to the original question... because they’re not trying to be doctors...? You know the ones that actually do the diagnosing and curing for the most part? How’s this even a question?

I never understood the fuss about organic either. I liked it better than general chem by a lot.

Does it really matter? I got a C+.

 

[de Ribas]

I make $26/hr and my night time intensivist said he makes $225/hr.

You are not paid enough. In my state minimum paid for RN out of college is 30/hr.

Plus you have to remember, most nurses do overtime and pick up shifts and do doubles.

NPs earn on average 100K while PCPs earn around 200-220K

So, yes, it is around 3x

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You are not paid enough. In my state minimum paid for RN out of college is 30/hr.

Plus you have to remember, most nurses do overtime and pick up shifts and do doubles.

NPs earn on average 100K while PCPs earn around 200-220K

So, yes, it is around 3x

For sure. My wife made $45/hr at her last job as a clinical RN. She makes $30 now, but she’s doing chart review.

 

[dr_kateb]

Does it really matter? I got a C+.

I don’t know... how does the fact that prenursing students don’t have to take organic chemistry have to do with you having to take it because of differing career paths?

And it matters because I bet if you got an A this thread would not exist.

 

[Thienyl15]

How come they have a free pass for not taking organic chemistry? Every pre-med has to? How come they don’t? The only class that weeds them out is anatomy and physiology. Should Nursing school revise there requirements? Organic chemistry is the foundation of medicine. Without organic, we be hopeless

Boy, I’m glad we have your vast body of premed knowledge to help improve nursing education in the US. Whatever would we do without your decades of experience in clinical practice and medical education.

 

[ljkeeper]

You are not paid enough. In my state minimum paid for RN out of college is 30/hr.

Plus you have to remember, most nurses do overtime and pick up shifts and do doubles.

NPs earn on average 100K while PCPs earn around 200-220K

So, yes, it is around 3x

30 is not a typical starting wage in the Midwest for a new grad nurse. I make around 25/hr and saying that most nurses pick up shifts and do doubles is not really that true, some do but not the majority. And the fact that they may be working extra hours does not mean that theyre making close to 3x less. If I make 50k this year which is highly unlikely it would not be close to 3x less than a PCP. Obviously it all depends on the location but lets not exaggerate nursing pay.

 

[de Ribas]

30 is not a typical starting wage in the Midwest for a new grad nurse. I make around 25/hr and saying that most nurses pick up shifts and do doubles is not really that true, some do but not the majority. And the fact that they may be working extra hours does not mean that theyre making close to 3x less. If I make 50k this year which is highly unlikely it would not be close to 3x less than a PCP. Obviously it all depends on the location but lets not exaggerate nursing pay.

average national RN salary is 71K

 

[calivianya]

average national RN salary is 71K

Yep, including people that have been nurses for 30 years and those practicing in the Bay Area of California making north of $60/hr.

Doesn't mean it's anywhere close to what most RNs make, especially in non-union states.

 

[de Ribas]

Yep, including people that have been nurses for 30 years and those practicing in the Bay Area of California making north of $60/hr.

Doesn't mean it's anywhere close to what most RNs make, especially in non-union states.

I see the picture. It's sad then that there are places where RNs are paid less or around 20/hr. Here, we have CNAs start at 15-16/hr. I am from Midwest.

 

[Lucca]

Yep, including people that have been nurses for 30 years and those practicing in the Bay Area of California making north of $60/hr.

Doesn't mean it's anywhere close to what most RNs make, especially in non-union states.

Aye. My partner is an RN in a non union state, new grad started at 22/hr.

 

[Blanky]

Thats usually the first 1-2 years and then it will either stay low or you can move to a different hospital and get $30

 

[dr_kateb]

^Jesus Christ you guys will argue about anything. Point is doctors make a lot more than nurses, so if you like that money you’re going to have to do more to earn it, which includes organic chemistry.

 

[deleted862527]

The real Organic Chemistry course(s) are not required for Nursing School simply because the content in the course does not (in anyway shape, or form) contribute to Nursing practice, theory, and education. Nursing School applicants do have to (pre-requisite courses vary upon Nursing School to Nursing School) but generally, it is common for them to have to take General Chemistry and Organic Chemistry; however, these courses are "watered down" and less complex than the original pre-med science courses. To put it blunt: Nurses do not need Chemistry for their practice unless they are covering simple concepts (acids + bases, etc.). However, Physician's have a much more detailed and thorough understanding of biological sciences because this serves as a very important foundation towards treating the disease and practicing medicine----not Nursing.

 

[frosted2]

I graduate in a few months and not once during med school did I need organic chemistry

SO happy to hear this 😍

... what about physics? Haha

 

[NYCdude]

I just wanna know why we gotta take physics lmao.

You'll know when you take cardiovascular/pulmonary/renal physiology.

 

[el_duderino]

Concepts of pressure, velocity, acceleration, flow, force, and leverage are concepts you need to understand for physiology.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Having some knowledge of physics is helpful in ortho as well.

 

[AsianPersuasion]

I find it so hard to believe that some RNs are making $22/hr. I'm working every other Saturday while in med school as a nurse doing hospice home visit, especially just to do an admission, that's $100 right there. Other rounding visits I'm based at $50/hr and if I'm called to pronounced etc or out of scheduled visit, those are $75 per visit. On a good stable 8 hr day, I'm getting 4 visits with 1 admission and that's $300 before taxes.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I find it so hard to believe that some RNs are making $22/hr. I'm working every other Saturday while in med school as a nurse doing hospice home visit, especially just to do an admission, that's $100 right there. Other rounding visits I'm based at $50/hr and if I'm called to pronounced etc or out of scheduled visit, those are $75 per visit. On a good stable 8 hr day, I'm getting 4 visits with 1 admission and that's $300 before taxes.

That’s nice?

 

[bioboy23]

Having some knowledge of physics is helpful in ortho as well.

F=ma=smash bone