Research for PICU fellowships

[picuboo]

PGY-3 peds resident at a low-to-midtier academic Northeast peds program applying to PICU. Colleague had mentioned that a publication is more impressive to PICU programs than a presentation (maybe because they’ve been virtual past 1.5 years)… any truth to this?
I’d love to know what to emphasize in interviews if they ask me about my research.

Also, how much research experience is too little for PICU (I’ve heard that PICU as a career is not as research-heavy as NICU or cardiology)?
I feel like my single publication (review article in PubMed) and single [virtual] presentation (case report) are somewhat lackluster for my application.

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[Pg394]

PGY-3 peds resident at a low-to-midtier academic Northeast peds program applying to PICU. Colleague had mentioned that a publication is more impressive to PICU programs than a presentation (maybe because they’ve been virtual past 1.5 years)… any truth to this?
I’d love to know what to emphasize in interviews if they ask me about my research.

Also, how much research experience is too little for PICU (I’ve heard that PICU as a career is not as research-heavy as NICU or cardiology)?
I feel like my single publication (review article in PubMed) and single [virtual] presentation (case report) are somewhat lackluster for my application.

I have zero publications and presentations so my application is not even lackluster, it just lacks 😅

I've been told by attendings and fellows from various areas of the country that along with talking about your research it’s also important to talk about what sort of research you’d like to do and where you see it going. So maybe if you feel like your application is lackluster emphasize why you would like to do and how you’re going to do it? I’m sorry if this isn’t much help.

 

[Natremia]

I have zero publications and presentations so my application is not even lackluster, it just lacks 😅

I've been told by attendings and fellows from various areas of the country that along with talking about your research it’s also important to talk about what sort of research you’d like to do and where you see it going. So maybe if you feel like your application is lackluster emphasize why you would like to do and how you’re going to do it? I’m sorry if this isn’t much help.

Very interesting. So, no research at all? If you don’t mind me asking! My brother is applying picu right now and having a rough go so I’m curious about others outcomes.

 

[Pg394]

Very interesting. So, no research at all? If you don’t mind me asking! My brother is applying picu right now and having a rough go so I’m curious about others outcomes.

I will let you know how this goes (after I don't match ). In all seriousness, all I've seen and heard about this cycle is that everyone's having a rough go, compared to last year (I knew someone who had 28ish interviews last year, IMG, carribean grad, 2 publications, not sure about presentation or scores and matched). This cycle (for my PHM and PEM friends as well) seem to be rough, the only people I know who have interviews in the teens and 20s are ped heme/onc and some adult fellowships :/
If your brother wants to message me on here, I'm new so I'm not sure how that works, feel free. I'm not sure if I'll be much help but if he wants to feel better about his application

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Posters/abstracts are always rated less than publications. The pure fact is that publications are peer-reviewed (typically) and poster/abstracts are not (typically).

PICU is kinda an interesting beast. Very much like PEM actually. It is one of the more competitive matches, yet its is probably one of the least academic from a research standpoint (again like PEM... I suppose PHM will be in there too at some point, but its too new to know). Most PICU trainees do "research" as a scholarly activity, but either go into academics and don't do any research (or do some modified form like QI) or go into private practice. Thus, a majority of trainees go on to pursue just clinical practice in one form or another. They are worker bees. However, fellowship is not structured to make just worker bees. That is true for all AAP fellowship by the way. So, more than half of the PICU training is dedicated to doing something else. Learning a niche, a new non-clinical skillset, etc. But many programs don't have the infrastructure or resources to make the most of that time useful. Augmented by the fact that many of the faculty and mentors of such projects, are themselves, worker bees, it just makes more worker bees. Of course, most hiring institutions on the back end, don't want to just hire a warm body, but that is what most systems produce, and so it becomes a competition for the warmest of warm bodies, ie. the one with a niche that they may or may not pursue. Anyway, I could drone on and on about this, but needless to say, PICU fellowship tries to attract people with the most academic records, only to produce people with the least. It's like the Orthopedics of the general match. It's quite the conundrum.

Aside from that digression, from a strictly applicant standpoint, publications > posters AND if you get an interview, have a career plan so you don't give the impression that half of the training is going to be an utter waste of time (even if statistically speaking, it will be).

 

[omgitsang]

Of course, most hiring institutions on the back end, don't want to just hire a warm body, but that is what most systems produce, and so it becomes a competition for the warmest of warm bodies, ie. the one with a niche that they may or may not pursue.

Sort of off topic but in reference to the above, should we be giving program reputation/prestige more weight with fellowship decisions going forward? Given how the job market the last couple years hasn't been great I'm wondering if not going to a "name brand" place will make one a less attractive warm body. Is it competitive enough that it's worth going to the "fancy" place that's not the best fit just to better ensure a future job?

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Sort of off topic but in reference to the above, should we be giving program reputation/prestige more weight with fellowship decisions going forward? Given how the job market the last couple years hasn't been great I'm wondering if not going to a "name brand" place will make one a less attractive warm body. Is it competitive enough that it's worth going to the "fancy" place that's not the best fit just to better ensure a future job?

Nobody cares where you did fellowship. Jobs are all about who you know and what skill set besides listening with a stethoscope you can provide. Well, all of that and timing…

 

[GoSpursGo]

Nobody cares where you did fellowship. Jobs are all about who you know and what skill set besides listening with a stethoscope you can provide. Well, all of that and timing…

Well, but getting to know the right people often has to do with what institution you're from and who your mentors are. So while theoretically you could get to meet influential people by walking up to them cold at a conference and striking up a conversation, people coming from a prestigious program wind up with an inherent leg up because of who their mentors are.

At the same time... keep in mind that a lot of the time, those "name brand" places are going to try and get you to stick around for a couple of years as an instructor. This also can eventually help you out, as you're going to look a lot shinier with a year or two of ACTUALLY being an attending under your belt compared to people who are just graduating fellows, and to your second point it also allows you to wait to move when the time is right... but you have to think about whether you really want to be in that location for 4+ years.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Well, but getting to know the right people often has to do with what institution you're from and who your mentors are. So while theoretically you could get to meet influential people by walking up to them cold at a conference and striking up a conversation, people coming from a prestigious program wind up with an inherent leg up because of who their mentors are.

At the same time... keep in mind that a lot of the time, those "name brand" places are going to try and get you to stick around for a couple of years as an instructor. This also can eventually help you out, as you're going to look a lot shinier with a year or two of ACTUALLY being an attending under your belt compared to people who are just graduating fellows, and to your second point it also allows you to wait to move when the time is right... but you have to think about whether you really want to be in that location for 4+ years.

Yeah, that instructor model is uncommon and nearly unheard in the PICU world. And having mentors and faculty call people is helpful, but it doesn't really matter what their personal prestige is. It literally only matters if they have a direct personal connection. For instance, we have interviewed candidates from top 5 institutions in the US News rankings (for whatever that is worth) for a faculty position, but they didn't get the job because they had nothing to offer that the next person didn't as well. Likewise, I had some attendings I knew well call up someone they knew well when I was looking for a physician-scientist position about a decade ago. I got an interview, but the job position never really materialized (ie, there ended up being no funding for the FTE).

As for internal hires, they are usually because they've already vetted you and know you won't become an utter headache after the fact. Of course, if there's no need for the FTE, they don't sink the budget just to keep you cause they like you.