Risks of Not Reporting an Institutional Action

[deleted1147967]

Hi, I am applying for the application cycle next year and had a question regarding institutional action. I graduated from college 2 years ago and also finished a Master's grad school program (510, 3.78 cGPA/3.63 sGPA).

During college my sophomore year, I was reported for academic dishonesty in my organic chemistry class, which caused me to receive an F and be suspended for a quarter. I was told by the college staff that any records of suspension and probation shall be erased exactly 2 years after I graduated. Since I am applying next May and it has already been 2 years, I am facing a serious dilemma between self-morality and wanting to get into medical school.

Should I apply without reporting my suspension as an IA? I am very worried because even if I report it, I know my chances of being accepted are really low. I have read various stories and received live advice from people who said that having an IA is already a red flag, but one as large as this would most definitely make my chances almost 0% (some med schools apparently filter out IA applicants on the spot).

If I do not report it as an IA, I face the risk of med schools finding out on their own. From how I see it, both paths give a similar risk because either I have a lower acceptance rate or face the lifelong fear of being caught during my med school years if accepted.

If anyone has been in this situation or knows someone or can just give advice, please let me know what I should do because I feel like this is something 5 years ago now that I don't ever want to define who I am, and I don't want med schools immediately looking down on me for such a stigmatizing label.

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[GoSpursGo]

This is not a question of self-morality. The AMCAS instructions are very clear:

Institutional Action: Medical schools need to know if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment, require you to withdraw, or does not appear on your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition.

Your odds if you report likely depend on exactly what you did. But if you don't report and it comes out during your application or post-acceptance checks, you absolutely would be rejected and/or have any acceptances revoked on the spot as you will have proved you did not learn from your first episode of being dishonest.

I would never, ever ever lie about an IA. You have reasonable stats and with sufficient time and demonstration of growth and remorse, you can probably get in (even if that is not this year). If you rush, try to hide the past, and get caught, your medical career is certainly over.

 

[Dantes]

Request your disciplinary and official transcript and see exactly what they say first. You were suspended for academic dishonesty though? Sounds pretty serious

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

If I were to see an F on an otherwise unremarkable transcript, I would immediately think you got caught cheating. What are you going to say if a likeminded adcom asks you straight up if you cheated?

Big Hoss

 

[DOCOC15]

I am facing a serious dilemma between self-morality and wanting to get into medical school.

Kind of sounds like the dilemma you had when deciding to cheat.. what did you learn from that experience?

 

[GoSpursGo]

I also have to point out, your school just said that "any records of suspension and probation" would be removed. That is not the same thing as them saying that your records won't have a record of an IA, just that they won't say that you were suspended and/or put on probation.

It is sort of immaterial, since it is clear that you should report. But even if you were inclined not to report I think there is a very high likelihood that something in your file would give you away.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I’ve shared this before when others have contemplated digging themselves into a deeper hole, but here’s a cautionary tale about not being upfront about past “indiscretions.”

Rutgers Disciplinary Action Disclosure

Does anyone have any experience with the RSDM disciplinary action disclosure during the whole interview process? I guess I had something on my record that I didn't disclose because no action was taken, and I didn't want to risk self incrimination if it wasn't necessary. The only reason I even...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Big Hoss

 

[deleted1147967]

Request your disciplinary and official transcript and see exactly what they say first. You were suspended for academic dishonesty though? Sounds pretty serious

I requested it and just got my official transcript yesterday. There is no mention of suspension, probation, or IA in the transcript. The only parts that show are the suspended quarter saying "withdrawn" and the F from the class.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I requested it and just got my official transcript yesterday. There is no mention of suspension, probation, or IA in the transcript. The only parts that show are the suspended quarter saying "withdrawn" and the F from the class.

I will highlight one more time that it seems like you are NOT weighing right vs. wrong, but rather whether or not you think you will get caught. This is precisely the line of thinking that got you into this problem in the first place. There is a clear right course of action and a clear wrong course of action.

Good luck.

 

[deleted1147967]

The next thing I planned on doing was asking my student discipline office for my disciplinary record. I think this will help finalize my decision.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

The next thing I planned on doing was asking my student discipline office for my disciplinary record. I think this will help finalize my decision.

Big Hoss

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

They can retroactively take your MD if they find out

Imagine having 400k in debt and no degree

 

[RangerBob]

I agree with the above--aside from what's right being right, that F is going to need to be explained one way or the other, as well as the quarter out of school. So if you don't disclose it, you're going to have to lie about it when they ask what happened at the interview.

Lying to an interviewer is even worse than omitting mention of the IA in the first place.

Don't be the student whose acceptance (or worse--MD/DO) gets rescinded.

 

[deleted1147967]

I want to be very blunt about this. Until I find someone who has been in the exact same situation as me (suspension, academic misconduct) and been accepted into a med school, I will start reconsidering checking the IA box. This is a tough situation to be in because I can own up to my mistake and have many med schools simply not care because of my high-level IA; or I can take a risk by not checking the box and being seen like a normal applicant as long as I am not caught.

 

[Helpful Troll]

I want to be very blunt about this. Until I find someone who has been in the exact same situation as me (suspension, academic misconduct) and been accepted into a med school, I will start reconsidering checking the IA box. This is a tough situation to be in because I can own up to my mistake and have many med schools simply not care because of my high-level IA; or I can take a risk by not checking the box and being seen like a normal applicant as long as I am not caught.

Wow... you just don't get it.

 

[Moko]

Spoiler: Original Post

Hi, I am applying for the application cycle next year and had a question regarding institutional action. I graduated from college 2 years ago and also finished a Master's grad school program (510, 3.78 cGPA/3.63 sGPA).

During college my sophomore year, I was reported for academic dishonesty in my organic chemistry class, which caused me to receive an F and be suspended for a quarter. I was told by the college staff that any records of suspension and probation shall be erased exactly 2 years after I graduated. Since I am applying next May and it has already been 2 years, I am facing a serious dilemma between self-morality and wanting to get into medical school.

Should I apply without reporting my suspension as an IA? I am very worried because even if I report it, I know my chances of being accepted are really low. I have read various stories and received live advice from people who said that having an IA is already a red flag, but one as large as this would most definitely make my chances almost 0% (some med schools apparently filter out IA applicants on the spot).

If I do not report it as an IA, I face the risk of med schools finding out on their own. From how I see it, both paths give a similar risk because either I have a lower acceptance rate or face the lifelong fear of being caught during my med school years if accepted.

If anyone has been in this situation or knows someone or can just give advice, please let me know what I should do because I feel like this is something 5 years ago now that I don't ever want to define who I am, and I don't want med schools immediately looking down on me for such a stigmatizing label.

I want to be very blunt about this. Until I find someone who has been in the exact same situation as me (suspension, academic misconduct) and been accepted into a med school, I will start reconsidering checking the IA box. This is a tough situation to be in because I can own up to my mistake and have many med schools simply not care because of my high-level IA; or I can take a risk by not checking the box and being seen like a normal applicant as long as I am not caught.

There are anecdotal reports of applicants getting in despite having a checkered history, whether it be academic misconduct or even a felony. In each of those cases, there was time separating the incident and application (the amount of time commiserate to the severity of the violation), and growth from the incident to show that they were no longer the same person who cheated/broke the law years ago.

To be equally blunt: dishonest applicants don't suddenly become honest doctors, especially when the stakes only get higher as you move through medical training and practice. You have clearly not learned from your suspension/probation, and if you continue down this path without change, your complete lack of integrity will end up putting yourself, and more importantly, others at significant risk of harm. For both of your sakes, I hope you either learn from your mistake or are never in a position to hurt them. Just my thoughts.

 

[Lifeblood_20]

So you cheated in Orgo and now you are going to cheat your way into med school. Got it. I hope you learn somewhere that dishonesty is unacceptable and no patients will be harmed because of you.

 

[LunaOri]

The fact that you are even considering not disclosing (despite being advised otherwise by multiple experienced people) says there is a problem with your moral compass, which is not something we want to see in a future physician.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I want to be very blunt about this. Until I find someone who has been in the exact same situation as me (suspension, academic misconduct) and been accepted into a med school, I will start reconsidering checking the IA box. This is a tough situation to be in because I can own up to my mistake and have many med schools simply not care because of my high-level IA; or I can take a risk by not checking the box and being seen like a normal applicant as long as I am not caught.

It is not a risk—you ARE going to be caught. Assuming there is not something else in your disciplinary record that would already give away your IA, there is a 100% chance that you will be asked about the F, and if you invent a lie and are caught at even one school (and you will) your career is over, period. They will report you to the AAMC who will initiate an investigation, and then you really will be blackballed from all schools forever.

As @Moko said, one IA (even a serious one) is usually not sufficient to have you blackballed forever. I categorically disagree that schools screen applicants out for an IA, because there is a wide range of things that lead to that box being checked from outright cheating as in your case to something stupid like your roommate had alcohol in your dorm room and you were in the room at the time. People read the box where you explain yourself, and then depending on how long ago the IA was and what growth you have shown they decide whether or not to invite you for an in person interview.

With your reasonable stats and presumably a clean record since this incident, I think you have a shot if you apply next cycle. You aren’t going to wind up at a “top” school, but if you own your mistake and show growth and commitment to integrity and honesty (usually through some form of volunteering, being part of a school honor or ethics council, talking to other students about your mistake, etc) then chances are you will convince *a* school that you learned your lesson. If for some reason you have not done anything along those lines in the last 18 months, then start now and apply in 2024. If you need to hear that from someone who went through exactly your scenario then you’ll probably be waiting for a long time, but you are hearing this from multiple faculty members who have some idea of what we are talking about in these matters. Trying to cover this up is not going to work, and you would be throwing away what I think is a reasonable chance to get in if you play by the rules and are patient.

 

[LeeSin]

I want to be very blunt about this. Until I find someone who has been in the exact same situation as me (suspension, academic misconduct) and been accepted into a med school, I will start reconsidering checking the IA box.

I fit that description exactly. Let me share with you my story.

A few years ago I came to SDN distraught. I had just made a huge mistake, and everything I was reading on the internet told me my journey was OVER. Not that I had a lower chance, not that I would be looked upon unfavorably, but that it was over before it even began. I told everyone my story and got feedback (spoiler: it wasn't great). My chances were much lower, but probably not zero. There was no evidence for people matriculating to medical school with an infraction like this. So from my point of view at that time I felt like I had a mountain to climb and no one had ever summited that mountain. This point in time is exactly where you are right now.

If I could go back in time I wouldn't change anything because my mistake made me who I am today. I ended up doing some things to rectify my actions that I am so proud of. I made it right the best I could, I owned up to it, and I was able to overcome it. So now, you have evidence that it's possible and you have a choice in hand. You can try to take a short, easy, but risky road to your goal or you can choose to take a longer harder route. I would recommend not cheating yourself of the growth that you can experience.


I'm not the best writer and there is more to my story than this but just know that it is possible, humans make mistakes, and owning up to them is an important part of life. Good luck

 

[Goro]

If I were to see an F on an otherwise unremarkable transcript, I would immediately think you got caught cheating. What are you going to say if a likeminded adcom asks you straight up if you cheated?

Big Hoss

This is always what goes through my mind when I see incidents like these. And my school has rejected people like this even if they didn't report an IA. And yet your strategy is to start out by being dishonest?

OP, you wish to enter a profession that values honesty and integrity. Yet your plan is to be dishonest and starting out.

Another word of warning we have rejected people who were outed by letter writers who wrote something like, "Klingon has grown so much as a person since the cheating incident."

My clinical colleagues take professionalism very seriously. They know from published data that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

 

[deleted1147967]

Thank you guys.

It's not just my thoughts, I have been getting mixed advice on the situation also outside of SDN, besides some SDN users who asked what it looks like on my transcript or record.

Some people who claim to be accepted have also advised to not check the IA box depending on what med schools can see on their end. After everything I have done since the cheating incident and in my Master's program, I do believe I am in a state where I can learn and be capable of owning to my mistake (I can say I have not cheated since and received almost all A's, probably why I was able to get close to a 3.8 GPA, and got a satisfactory MCAT score). These thoughts about what med schools see in applicants came back to me after all these years, so it really does weigh on how I choose to act with this IA.

From what I see, if some people do tell me I have to "stop" or my "medical career is over," I'd rather at least get my dream of getting into med school and keep it for as long as I can, whether I'd be caught years into my medical career or at the beginning when I interview. Either way, both outcomes lead to a rejection or blacklist, which means nothing to me because I could never get in either way.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi, I am applying for the application cycle next year and had a question regarding institutional action. I graduated from college 2 years ago and also finished a Master's grad school program (510, 3.78 cGPA/3.63 sGPA).

During college my sophomore year, I was reported for academic dishonesty in my organic chemistry class, which caused me to receive an F and be suspended for a quarter. I was told by the college staff that any records of suspension and probation shall be erased exactly 2 years after I graduated. Since I am applying next May and it has already been 2 years, I am facing a serious dilemma between self-morality and wanting to get into medical school.

Should I apply without reporting my suspension as an IA? I am very worried because even if I report it, I know my chances of being accepted are really low. I have read various stories and received live advice from people who said that having an IA is already a red flag, but one as large as this would most definitely make my chances almost 0% (some med schools apparently filter out IA applicants on the spot).

If I do not report it as an IA, I face the risk of med schools finding out on their own. From how I see it, both paths give a similar risk because either I have a lower acceptance rate or face the lifelong fear of being caught during my med school years if accepted.

If anyone has been in this situation or knows someone or can just give advice, please let me know what I should do because I feel like this is something 5 years ago now that I don't ever want to define who I am, and I don't want med schools immediately looking down on me for such a stigmatizing label.

tl;dr I cheated and was caught. Should I cheat again 5 years later?

 

[iDoctel]

Thank you guys.

It's not just my thoughts, I have been getting mixed advice on the situation also outside of SDN, besides some SDN users who asked what it looks like on my transcript or record.

Some people who claim to be accepted have also advised to not check the IA box depending on what med schools can see on their end. After everything I have done since the cheating incident and in my Master's program, I do believe I am in a state where I can learn and be capable of owning to my mistake (I can say I have not cheated since and received almost all A's, probably why I was able to get close to a 3.8 GPA, and got a satisfactory MCAT score). These thoughts about what med schools see in applicants came back to me after all these years, so it really does weigh on how I choose to act with this IA.

From what I see, if some people do tell me I have to "stop" or my "medical career is over," I'd rather at least get my dream of getting into med school and keep for as long as I can, whether I'd be caught years later or at the beginning when I interview. Either way, both outcomes lead to a rejection or blacklist, which means nothing to me because I could never get in either way.

It sounds like you've already made your choice, and are trying to get the "OKAY" from users from SDN to tell you to go ahead and not report your IA.

You've gotten some pretty valuable and wise feedback from a number of staff here that are pretty high up on their respective schools administration list. It's up to you what you take from their advice.
The people in your screenshot are giving you advice while very likely NOT being in a position related to admissions or review of applications. I'd take what they tell me with a grain of salt...

I believe one of your screenshots mentioned one of those very staff members that replied to this thread themselves. Personally, I would take the advice of the person who was mentioned directly and not advice from a third person who mentions their name in what I assume is a pre-med Discord chat.

FYI, I agree with the majority sentiment here and advice you to do the right thing and report your IA, explain it, show how you grew from this incident and explore opportunities to showcase your growth.

 

[eigen]

Since arguments about doing the right think and being honest don't seem to be swaying you, which is troubling on its own, I want to go back and re-iterate a pragmatic argument.

Lets say you manage to get into medical school. And then at some point in your 3rd or 4th year (or in residency) it comes out that you cheated / lied on your application.

And you get kicked out / your MD gets revoked.

Now you're in debt for 3-4 years of medical school tuition, have mo medical degree, and no chance of getting into one or practicing.

That's a lot worse of a situation to be in than not getting into medical school to begin with.

 

[PuzzlesMD]

Either way, both outcomes lead to a rejection or blacklist, which means nothing to me because I could never get in either way.

The point is that if you ARE honest about it, and can show schools it is behind you, you do have the chance of an acceptance. It is not a death sentence. People have overcome it before. Get in the honest way, and enjoy a career without fearing that everything you have worked for can be taken away.

 

[deleted1146619]

Agree wholeheartedly about reporting it! I know people have brought up interviews, but also secondaries! A ton of secondaries ask for an explanation on grades of D or F (some even B-/C+ & below). Would you lie on the secondaries too?

You have so much to lose by being dishonest.

 

[Goro]

The point is that if you ARE honest about it, and can show schools it is behind you, you do have the chance of an acceptance. It is not a death sentence. People have overcome it before. Get in the honest way, and enjoy a career without fearing that everything you have worked for can be taken away.

1000% true! Do NOT listen to ignorant pre-meds. The people giving you realistic advice in this thread include admissions committee members, including me.

So pay attention : Not all cheating IAs are lethal.

An IA like you have that occurred when you were what 19? 20?

That can be forgiven. We were all young and stupid once.

 

[DarkBluMage]

I want to be very blunt about this. Until I find someone who has been in the exact same situation as me (suspension, academic misconduct) and been accepted into a med school, I will start reconsidering checking the IA box. This is a tough situation to be in because I can own up to my mistake and have many med schools simply not care because of my high-level IA; or I can take a risk by not checking the box and being seen like a normal applicant as long as I am not caught.

You’re not giving the vibe that you learned your lesson from being dishonest the first time 🥴

 

[Sn00pygrrl]

Put it this way: you cheated once and were caught. You're essentially asking SDN if cheating again (i.e. not disclosing the IA despite explicit instructions to do so on AMCAS and a ton of cautionary advice from people here) is worth it in order to secure a spot in med school.

Let me be blunt: the answer is no. Cheating is NEVER ok. It can be forgiven, but you have to own it completely and show that you have matured and learned something in the process. It honestly doesn't sound like you're there yet. You may need more than 2 years of working on yourself to prove that you have psychologically overcome whatever it was that prompted you to cheat in the first place.

 

[GoSpursGo]

. After everything I have done since the cheating incident and in my Master's program, I do believe I am in a state where I can learn and be capable of owning to my mistake (I can say I have not cheated since and received almost all A's, probably why I was able to get close to a 3.8 GPA, and got a satisfactory MCAT score).

That word does not mean what you seem to think it means.

I agree with others who say it seems like you’ve made up your mind and want to be told it is ok. It is not ok. This is not a matter of lawyer-ese that AAMC asks for it in this way, it is because the medical profession has very high standards of ethics and just because you may or may not get caught doesn’t mean what you’re doing is right. And I still have not heard what you think an acceptable answer will be when you are inevitably asked what happened with that F in an interview setting.

I stand by what I said that you could likely get in if you actually did own your past. If you go down this path, then when you get caught I sincerely hope you come back and share that experience as a cautionary tale to future students.

 

[gyngyn]

Request your disciplinary and official transcript and see exactly what they say first. You were suspended for academic dishonesty though? Sounds pretty serious

It doesn't matter what they say. IA's must be reported.

 

[gyngyn]

The next thing I planned on doing was asking my student discipline office for my disciplinary record. I think this will help finalize my decision.

Your decision has already been made (by AMCAS). IA's must be reported.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Big Hoss

 

[NotAProgDirector]

If you disclose it, you'll likely get less interviews and more rejections. With each rejection you'll wonder if it was the IA that was the problem. There will be no way to know. It will likely be upsetting. But if you get an acceptance, you're golden. This is behind you, no one will ever care again.

If you don't disclose it, you may get more interviews. You may have a better chance of getting an acceptance. But, you will worry about this FOREVER. If anyone, anywhere ever notices it, your entire career can come to an end. It has happened once to me -- someone put something small on their CV that caught my attention. It was in an area I have an interest / knowledge of. I asked them about it in their interview, and it seemed to me the discussion suggested they had no clue. I contacted their supervisor and it became obvious they had markedly oversold it. I contacted ERAS, their school got involved, and they were dismissed. Now that I think about it, it actually happened twice -- someone said they had an undergrad degree. While in training we discovered (through something completely random) that they never got their degree -- they were short a few credits, their med school either didn't know or didn't care. But they put the degree on their application. They were shown the door.

There is no decision to be made here. There is an F on your transcript along with a withdrawal for the semester. You will be asked about this. What exactly do you plan to say about it?

And then, if you do get caught, any further professional career in any field is going to be complicated. Anyone hiring you into a good position is going to ask you about why you left medical school (unless you plan to just not list it on your CV, which would be another disaster). Once it's clear that you cheated, then lied about it, getting hired is going to be a mess.

 

[deleted1147967]

tl;dr I cheated and was caught. Should I cheat again 5 years later?

Me checking the box and explaining my IA: tl;dr, they got caught and suspended, next applicant!

What is your advice on how med schools view IA's? I feel like this is dismissive.

 

[eigen]

Me checking the box and explaining my IA: tl;dr, they got caught and suspended, next applicant!

What is your advice on how med schools view IA's? I feel like this is dismissive.

It's not dismissive: it's the truth.

You cheated in the past. You're considering cheating again.

In a profession where ethics is the single most critical thing every member must possess, the fact that you're willing to forgo morals and ethics because it's expedient to you is bad. Everyone is telling you this.

The fact that you still don't care and are still arguing *in favor* of lying on your application is not good.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Me checking the box and explaining my IA: tl;dr, they got caught and suspended, next applicant!

What is your advice on how med schools view IA's? I feel like this is dismissive.

You know what you need to do. Stop trying to rationalize what you want to do. I’m not sure if you are truly grasping the consequences of lying/not fully disclosing everything on your application.

Nobody is going to make this decision for you. Just remember, if you play stupid games, you can only win stupid prizes. You are going to be asked about this F and your subsequent “withdrawal” for a term. What are you going to say to explain this grade and gap? I’d love to be the one seated across the table from you watching you squirm as you try to pull a fast one over on me.

Big Hoss

 

[gyngyn]

I'm sorry that OP is taking this approach. I'm closing this thread as it seems to have been opened with the expectation that there would be support for compounding a serious mistake with pre-meditated unethical behavior.