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Absolutely not true.
Ross Medical School vs. U.S. D.O.
Started by Santario69
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Absolutely not true.
Well if the title is really the most important, isn't your decision made ?😕
The OP was answering my question....I still don't get the total cost of attendance for Ross, I have heard from some friends that it's expensive to live down there. I have no realistic idea of how much an average DO school costs, since TCOM is the same as other TX schools.
Very true, you will graduate at any medical institution if you have the effort and discipline.
But IMO, I would rather do it in the United States, where the school has arranged my 3rd/4th years for me, and where home is a 2 hour plane ride away....
I sometimes-no make it ALL the time-think this "ignorance" exists at the pre-med level. And only at the pre-med level. Propagated by people on SDN
While it is a "personal and psychological difference," if you are not willing to take 2 minutes to explain a "DO is exactly like MD, it's just another degree for a doctor" then are you going to have the patience to educate your patients, on, oh let's say THEIR HEALTH?
This is weird...I didn't realize DO's have such a radically different philosophy. Can you explain what you mean?
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I want to know this as well, because I didn't get that info at any of my interviews either.
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DO!!! I don't think you'll get a lesser education at Ross, but I've been doing a clinical preceptorship with a GI doctor who allows Ross students to do 3rd and 4th year rotations with him. Each of the students I've met have been having a problem getting interviews and say that if they could do it again, they would have gone to a school in the states. Residency programs are VERY picky and not many want carribean students. Even if you choose to do IM, you'll probably have problems. It's not right, but it's the way things are. Go DO!
Ok, so here's the way I'd look at it (I just had to give this advice to a family member, so hopefully this makes sense...)
1) Residencies = The jury's still out on which of the two options opens/closes more doors, and ultimately someone comes up with the argument of "well if you have a 260 on the Step I you'll be just dandy" which is hilarious cause sure, it's just that easy! Anyway, it's true that DOs can get into an MD residency OR a DO residency, but they do have to take both the USMLE and their version (I forget what it's called...) in order to have both options, and apparently it's not as simple a process as SDNers make it out to be. On the other hand, as people have mentioned, residency spots in the US are staying the same but med schools are reproducing like bunnies, and the main effect seems to be to kick out the IMG's. Unfortunately, if you think about it, it makes sense: residencies will first pick people who go to med schools under the big AAMC umbrella because they're all pretty standardized, and then the DO schools that are standardized according to their own rules, and then they'll pick people whose training they had no control over.
Oh by the way, as far as reputation and stigma are concerned, I consider them to be about equal for both options, although it's more geographically dependent. There are some locations in which there are no DO schools and people don't know what DOs are, and there are some locations in which people are very "smart shoppers" and will straight up ask you where you went to med school (and wont trust you after you mention a school in the islands). It totally depends. I've never worked with a doctor from the islands, but I have seen two DOs at 2 separate academic centers I worked in. One of them was a resident, and the other was an attending. I do have to mention though that the attending (this was at Stanford, by the way) was trying to get a tenure-track position elsewhere (UCSF) because the Stanford position was only for 2 years and was basically dead-end. When she met with our director, he told her that the UCSF people were probably not going to take her because of her "alternative training" which pissed her off to no end. Of course, as I said, there were no island doctors there either, fwiw.
2) Clinicals = DOs definitely have it here. Yes, IMGs can do clinicals in the US, but first of all, I've heard Ross has major issues trying to place their gagillion students into third and fourth year clinicals which can often result in extremely sub-par experiences. As for other schools, including SGU, things are still pretty complicated. At US-MD schools (and I'm guessing DO schools as well), we're trained at a very limited number of university-run hospitals and maybe a corollary or two, the idea being that we're going to be under the purview and umbrella of our own home institution. Again, this means tight control over our training. From my point of view as a med student, this is something I very much want in my education because I won't feel like I'm constantly being thrown to the wind, changing hospitals and policies and people every month or so. You get stuck with teachers who don't want to teach because- hey- they're not working at a university! Not to mention the fact that the hospitals they usually send you to tend to be the poorer, more crowded ones where you really don't get a whole lot of attention. You want attention as a third year. You want to be actively taught things. And you want residency directors to know where you've trained and trust that you learned what you were supposed to learn.
3) Lifestyle and location = from what I hear, the islands where these schools are located are pretty rustic. We're talking super-expensive bottled water, cockroaches the size of dessert plates, and only one kind of tampon at the convenience store. Sure, that's not exactly living in the woods, but if you're used to all the lovely conveniences of a massively stocked grocery store 5 minutes away and 20 different types of restaurants in your area, it can be kind of a painful adjustment. I could probably rough it for a while, but with the stress of med school, I feel like not being able to find Half Baked cause it didn't come in with the latest shipment, or having an iguana in my bathtub might just drive me over the edge. Not to mention issues with internet connections, cell phones, possibly unfriendly locals who think you're just some rich spoiled kids, and the fact that your loved ones have to get onto 3 different flights that only fly on certain days in order to come visit. Med school is tough as it is. I can't imagine having those logistical issues to add to this mess.
4) Support = this would probably be the main reason why I'd personally pick DO. Med schools here have a vested interest in making damn sure you graduate. That usually means lots and lots of support. They want to maintain high graduation rates and get lots of people into residencies. That also leads to GENERALLY not horrendously competitive student bodies, cause it really does you no good to try to screw over everyone else- it wouldn't really help you anyway. In the islands, the situation is different because they accept way more people than deserve to have a medical education. Some people there have no idea what they're in for and don't know how to study and can't take tests. It is in the school's best interest to take their money and then weed them out so the people who graduate from there are only the very best, since those are the people that might manage to get a residency- this keeps their match percentages artificially high so when we're looking at their website, we get to be like "oh look, they matched 88% of their graduating class!" (well yeah, but that's really like 40% of their entering class). They really don't have too much of a motivation to keep you there. You don't get to retake whole classes and whole semesters and whole years while taking "research time" the way you do here. It's sink or swim. And unfortunately, that leads to some brutal, BRUTAL competition as everyone tries to take those coveted graduation seats. Again, med school is hard enough. I can't imagine trying to live through that as well.
So yeah, I'd think long and hard about your decision. One thing most people don't mention (probably cause it's awkward) is that you're in this mess for a reason. I'm not judging, I could very easily have been in an equal mess last year. But the point is, chances are some part of your application was weak- be it your grades, your MCAT, or more likely a combination of the above. Either way, while I'm sure you've turned a new leaf and are willing to put in the work, you can't assume that you'll suddenly turn into a stellar student with a 4.0 gpa and that your lower MCAT will become a 260 on step 1. You may have crappy study habits, or be a crappy test-taker. Considering all these things, you want to take the road that will give you the most support and the least amount of stress so you CAN change this stuff around. Hell, an SMP would be a good idea, since you'd get to see the med school workload without actually having it "count". I wouldn't pick an option cause it's the quickest or easiest, cause there's nothing quick or easy about our education. I think you have to be very honest with yourself about all the stuff I mentioned and figure out what works best for you.
Great answer
I say roll dice until the answer is unveiled.
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This is an non scientific judgement really, but i'll give my opinion.
Any school (or any entity for that matter) which seems to throw itself at you with it's advertising - isn't worth very much in the real world.
Think of it this way, how many times have you seen a DO school advertise? Certainly not as many as Ross!
Any school (or any entity for that matter) which seems to throw itself at you with it's advertising - isn't worth very much in the real world.
Think of it this way, how many times have you seen a DO school advertise? Certainly not as many as Ross!
I seriously doubt that
My aunt was misdiagnosed by an MD and will only go to DOs now. There is MD bias.
I dont really get how people can sit there and be arrogent about their MD island degree over a DO degree. How can you really think your sooo amazing when you had to go to a for profit island to get your medical education!?!? Ive been getting ross mail for years, im sure many 8th graders do too, im insulted by their desperate advertising. When it all comes down to it, you do whatever you can to stay in the states (even if it means waiting an extra 6 months, which btw is the MOST ridiculous deciding factor ive ever seen) and when you cant get in DO or MD in the US you go to the carib if your really desperate to become a doctor. I cant speak for all DO schools but i can say that where Im at, ccom is an amazing school and ive worked with many of their students. They are treated on an equal playing field and idk if its just chicago but ive never seen any disrespect or questioning of their degree. On the other hand, i know more than a few carib people who didnt make it! And have loans that theyre paying off with their bartending job.
All i have is anecdotal evidence, but the carib grads dont have it easy when it comes to getting a residency, and they know it. A few years on the island will really let you know where you stand, and the schools dont give a **** about whether you make it or not. Seriously, a lot of these guys come back feeling beat up. On top of all the stress of traveling back and forth, worrying about being in a foreign place that may not have the amenities your used to, concerns about safety, the fact that your fam and friends are an ocean away, knowing that if you f up no one at the school will help you, unsure of if your getting appropriate board prep, and not knowing what to say when residency directors ask you why you went to a carib school, it really doesnt sound too amazing to me. All for the letters MD?? It may seem like you found a sneaky way to bypass the system, but youll pay long and hard for it.
And for the record... the only MD vs. DO bias that exists is on SDN, perpetuated by the complete lack of knowledge/experience of pre-meds.
good luck.
All i have is anecdotal evidence, but the carib grads dont have it easy when it comes to getting a residency, and they know it. A few years on the island will really let you know where you stand, and the schools dont give a **** about whether you make it or not. Seriously, a lot of these guys come back feeling beat up. On top of all the stress of traveling back and forth, worrying about being in a foreign place that may not have the amenities your used to, concerns about safety, the fact that your fam and friends are an ocean away, knowing that if you f up no one at the school will help you, unsure of if your getting appropriate board prep, and not knowing what to say when residency directors ask you why you went to a carib school, it really doesnt sound too amazing to me. All for the letters MD?? It may seem like you found a sneaky way to bypass the system, but youll pay long and hard for it.
And for the record... the only MD vs. DO bias that exists is on SDN, perpetuated by the complete lack of knowledge/experience of pre-meds.
good luck.
oh and as a suggestion read about some peoples experiences to get a true idea of what its like. I just googled and thought this was an accurate account.
http://www.valuemd.com/archive/index.php/t-186434.html
http://www.valuemd.com/archive/index.php/t-186434.html
^^^^
"Girls: bring your own specific feminine products b/c they don't have a good selection and tampons there are questionable at best. Also friendly advice: ask your GYN to give you some meds in case of UTI, and antifungals and antiyeast b/c each semester a lot of girls have some problems (presumably from heat, moisture and the bathing water). "
Have fun with that....id much rather study my "witch doctor" medicine in the states
"Girls: bring your own specific feminine products b/c they don't have a good selection and tampons there are questionable at best. Also friendly advice: ask your GYN to give you some meds in case of UTI, and antifungals and antiyeast b/c each semester a lot of girls have some problems (presumably from heat, moisture and the bathing water). "
Have fun with that....id much rather study my "witch doctor" medicine in the states
HAHAHAAH, oh Handy ... you never fail to surprise me.
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I told him that "we all have opinions about DOs but I prefer to keep mine private".
Sorry pal, but your classmate isn't going to be any kind of department head. He's too big an idiot.
That is probably the dumbest thing I have heard in a while.
everyone is entitled to their opinions. I can tell you that he's doing pretty well in school so far. Point is, you get people with strong opinions in some institutions, and it's not just the premeds or med students.AND their opinions don't make them an idiots.
I am pretty sure you'll have no trouble practicing, but there are still places where people prefer not to match students with alternative training
http://www.columbiamedicine.org/education/r_staff.shtml
this is our internal medicine residency, out of our 146 IM residents there is not a single DO.
Like this guy:
http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=mm3161&DepAffil=Surgery
Maurizio A. Miglietta, DO
Positions and Appointments
2007-present
Chief, Division of Acute Care Surgery
Columbia University Medical Center, New York, NY
2007-present
Director, Trauma & Emergency Surgery
NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Columbia University Medical Center, New York, NY
2007-present
Assistant Professor of Surgery
Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, NY
2007-present
Attending Surgeon
NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Columbia University Medical Center, New York, NY
---
http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=dd227&DepAffil=Surgery
Daniel G. Davis, DO, FACS
Positions and Appointments
2002-present Surgical Director of Center, Obesity Surgery
Valley Hospital , Ridgewood, NJ
2002-present Assistant Clinical Professor of Surgery
NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Columbia University Medical Center, New York, NY
2002-present Assistant Professor of Surgery
Weill Medical College of Cornell University, New York, NY
2002-present Surgical Director of Center for Obesity Surgery
Lawrence Hospital, Bronxville, NY
---
I guess the surgery dept at Columbia isn't too picky.
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I would be interested in knowing if the percentage of DO department heads at allopathic programs is in proportion to the percentage of DOs in the workforce who have undertaken allopathic residency training. Anyone can pull a handful of exceptions to provide an inspirational - but ultimately deceiving - point. Same goes for Caribbean-trained MDs.
Makes no difference. He's still a *****.
It does when they consider fully licensed DOs to be "beneath" PAs. That shows an incredible lack of knowledge and an overpowering sense of snobbishness and arrogance, which doesn't translate well in the job market, in case you're not aware.
Use that phrase out there in the work force to refer to DOs and I guarantee you'll get more rejections than acceptances. The fact is, only pre-meds and a select few of ignorant med students think of DOs as having "alternative training". That phrase is reserved for naturopaths in most circles.
And since there don't seem to be any Caribbean graduates either, your point is less than irrelevant in this thread, so why don't you zip up your pants and move along now that you've successfully shown the rest of the SDN world that you're a narrow-minded, insecure med student who stumbles into a thread to bitch about DOs just because.
ok...thanks for the personal attacks. pretty sure that's a TOS violation.
Then why do DO's score a lot lower (on average) than MD students on the USMLE? lol..
Do we learn the same basic stuff? Yup.. Is it presented in the same way? No clue... But, I do know that DO's have a hard time on the USMLE step 1 exam.
uh.. so your argument is that the curriculum must be different because of the difference in step scores?
I'm not completely sure of the different approach to teaching, since I'm only a first year, but we as DOs are more prepared for the COMLEX than the USMLE. However, through self-study, anything is possible. For example, one glaring example is that up to 20% of our national board exam is OMM based. We're "forced" to follow the osteopathic ideology or risk loss of precious points on the boards. That's neither here nor there though since this isn't an OMM thread.
So yes, there is a difference in preparation in the allopathic and osteopathic institutions with regards to boards but you can adequately prepare yourself for both boards as an osteopathic medical student; we're even encourage to pick up USMLE prep books in our first two years to review material in our classes.
The reason DOs score A LITTLE (not a lot) lower on the USMLE is because their curriculum is geared toward more clinical cases. They don't go into every intricate detail of Biochem, anatomy is presented with clinicals in mind, etc. DOs are trained toward the COMLEX and if you look at scores, they're comparable to USMLE. BUT, that doesn't mean there's any kind of radical difference in curriculum. It's just that the emphasis is different.
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... his/her opinion may not make him/her an idiot, but that certainly doesn't make it a *valid* opinion. your friend obviously knows EVERYTHING there is to know about the DO degree and a PA degree since he/she has BOTH of them already, amirite? making a statement like "DOs are beneath PAs" is similar to me saying that "all columbia med students are douchebags" based on your single anecdote about your snooty classmate. i don't know what the other students are like at columbia, but hey, i'm going to make blanket generalizations about things based on one or two instances!
... and how do you *know* that they don't have a single DO because they "prefer not to match students with alternative training"? I'm sure you consulted all the IM residency directors on that one.
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I'd just like to throw in that, in spite of all this arguing and debating, I think that whether you choose Ross or DO you are going to be ok. Your success or failure will be dependent upon your personal drive and exertion. If you choose to go to Ross, I applaud you for not giving up and pressing on. If you choose to become a DO, I pat you on the back and give you a thumbs up.
The big picture is that we should all be in this together to fight cancers, diseases, and transform people's lives...and if you are doing that then regardless of the route you take to get there, I give you much respect and loud applause 🙂
US MD's vs. DO's vs Caribbean MD's is a fight that should not be ongoing.
The big picture is that we should all be in this together to fight cancers, diseases, and transform people's lives...and if you are doing that then regardless of the route you take to get there, I give you much respect and loud applause 🙂
US MD's vs. DO's vs Caribbean MD's is a fight that should not be ongoing.
The fact is, US medical school (DO AND MD ARE MEDICAL SCHOOLS), attain the highest residency spots in the US. PERIOD.
I'm going to Ross this upcoming semester, yet I still would have chosen DO over Ross. MD and DO don't matter to me that much although it may to others who don't realize that once they start having problems as IMG's or problems at the carib med schools they would have gone back and chosen the DO route instead.
Anyway to get to the point, once you get into med school in the US you're pretty much set, but once you get into Ross or any other of even the top 4, don't celebrate just yet, because you're not set nor are you guaranteed anything. (Yea someone is probably going to say that you're not guaranteed anything anywhere, but I'm talking here about the huge difference in percentage)
MOST US med school students are set (in terms of getting to where they wana be) once they get accepted to the med school.
but once you get accepted to a carib school, you're not guaranteed anything. You might be of the VERY HIGH percentage of people that fail out, you might not be able to handle the living environment, you def won't get any help from staff or the school which increases your chances of messing up, you might be of the high percentage of students that just pass your boards and still have trouble getting residencies (as opposed to US med students who just pass and still attain residencies).
The point is, one route is pretty much gauranteed and the other isn't at all. BUT ....
If you really think you won't be satisfied with a DO degree, whether its the same or not, its still a personal opinion and if you're not gona be able to live with it then obviously you shouldn't. It wouldn't make sense to do something you don't want to do that goes for any career and any degree. If you are willing to go with the not so guaranteed route you can still make it guaranteed upon yourself just like many people who have (even though most haven't been able to).
The decisive factors in my opinion come down to the following:
Do you want (the much much more) guaranteed residency with a DO or do you prefer taking your chances as an IMG in which you won't be settled or guaranteed anything until you are actually matched?
If the answer to that is yes I prefer the guaranteed route, then ask yourself if the MD degree is of more weight to you to the point that you would sacrifice the guaranteed route for it. If the answer to that is yes then again if you're willing to work your (for a lack of better words) butt off and make that guaranteed for yourself, then do it.
If the answer to that is no and you prefer a secure guaranteed future starting your first day of medical school then I would go with the DO.
I'm going to Ross this upcoming semester, yet I still would have chosen DO over Ross. MD and DO don't matter to me that much although it may to others who don't realize that once they start having problems as IMG's or problems at the carib med schools they would have gone back and chosen the DO route instead.
Anyway to get to the point, once you get into med school in the US you're pretty much set, but once you get into Ross or any other of even the top 4, don't celebrate just yet, because you're not set nor are you guaranteed anything. (Yea someone is probably going to say that you're not guaranteed anything anywhere, but I'm talking here about the huge difference in percentage)
MOST US med school students are set (in terms of getting to where they wana be) once they get accepted to the med school.
but once you get accepted to a carib school, you're not guaranteed anything. You might be of the VERY HIGH percentage of people that fail out, you might not be able to handle the living environment, you def won't get any help from staff or the school which increases your chances of messing up, you might be of the high percentage of students that just pass your boards and still have trouble getting residencies (as opposed to US med students who just pass and still attain residencies).
The point is, one route is pretty much gauranteed and the other isn't at all. BUT ....
If you really think you won't be satisfied with a DO degree, whether its the same or not, its still a personal opinion and if you're not gona be able to live with it then obviously you shouldn't. It wouldn't make sense to do something you don't want to do that goes for any career and any degree. If you are willing to go with the not so guaranteed route you can still make it guaranteed upon yourself just like many people who have (even though most haven't been able to).
The decisive factors in my opinion come down to the following:
Do you want (the much much more) guaranteed residency with a DO or do you prefer taking your chances as an IMG in which you won't be settled or guaranteed anything until you are actually matched?
If the answer to that is yes I prefer the guaranteed route, then ask yourself if the MD degree is of more weight to you to the point that you would sacrifice the guaranteed route for it. If the answer to that is yes then again if you're willing to work your (for a lack of better words) butt off and make that guaranteed for yourself, then do it.
If the answer to that is no and you prefer a secure guaranteed future starting your first day of medical school then I would go with the DO.
They advertise on SDN!! I wouldn't go to a school that have to advertise to get people to go there, seem like they care more about your cash then the kind of education they will give you. Stays in the States.. go DO!! My parent didnt even know one of their doctor was a DO until i pointed out.. the regular people dont care if you are MD or DO. just be a good doctor and they will flock to you!
Whoops.
Aww, are they not playing fair??
That's a google advertisement.They advertise on SDN!! I wouldn't go to a school that have to advertise to get people to go there, seem like they care more about your cash then the kind of education they will give you. Stays in the States.. go DO!! My parent didnt even know one of their doctor was a DO until i pointed out.. the regular people dont care if you are MD or DO. just be a good doctor and they will flock to you!
Maybe not. But ignorant? Certainly.
What is your definition of "a little?"
D.O. first time taker pass rate (2008): 82%
M.D. first time taker pass rate (2008): 95%
http://www.usmle.org/Scores_Transcripts/performance/2008.html
Its more than a little, but its not a lot. And its waay better than the 63% of non-us grads that pass (same source), considering DO's are supposedly prepared to pass a different licensing exam. I don't know if thats really a good reason or not, I haven't taken either of them, but I do know that non-US test takers are specifically geared to pass the USMLE and they aren't doing a very good job.
A number of DO students take the USMLE to see how they do after preparing for the COMLEX 1 (DO licensing exam). That undoubtedly drags the passing rate down.
You MUST take that passing rate with a grain of salt though. It is not a complete representation of DO students; it is a self-selective group that elected to sit for step 1. Some of them probably didn't take it as seriously as others because if they do poorly, your scores really aren't that big of a deal. It doesn't affect your ability to become licensed, and you can apply to DO residency programs and give them your COMLEX score.
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GO D.O. If you excel, you can go to many prestigious residencies.
-An M.D. told me the importance of the holistic approach to medicine the other day. He told me of a woman who came into his clinic and she had some disease. The physician asked about something else that was troubling her too. He said that he saved her life because she was going to commit suicide if no one was there to help her. This approach to holistically looking at a patient...ended up saving her life. MD's are trained to look at the symptom and most miss the other side of medicine--the social aspect of the patient. Indeed, I'm going to an M.D. school in Baltimore next fall, but I still value the great insights D.O.'s give towards the progression of American Medicine. DO NOT listen to others and DO NOT let others influence you from being a D.O. Go D.O. and you'll be fine.
-An M.D. told me the importance of the holistic approach to medicine the other day. He told me of a woman who came into his clinic and she had some disease. The physician asked about something else that was troubling her too. He said that he saved her life because she was going to commit suicide if no one was there to help her. This approach to holistically looking at a patient...ended up saving her life. MD's are trained to look at the symptom and most miss the other side of medicine--the social aspect of the patient. Indeed, I'm going to an M.D. school in Baltimore next fall, but I still value the great insights D.O.'s give towards the progression of American Medicine. DO NOT listen to others and DO NOT let others influence you from being a D.O. Go D.O. and you'll be fine.
unfounded stereotype imo
Are you sure about this? My medical school's hospital is high quality and I'm not sure Carib students really get the opportunity to train here. Training at US hospitals in general is not the same as training at certain specific US hospitals.
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What exactly does "holistic" mean in this case and why do you believe that MDs lack this? Since your hero MD ended up treating the patient correctly, it doesn't seem to be a failing of allopathic medicine.
Yeah I agree, a good physician is a good physician and vice versa, has nothing to do with the letters after their name.
you've illustrated nothing
Extremely unfair. DOs do NOT own the market on 'treating the patient, not the disease' etc. Statements like this make DOs seem insecure to me, which - from what I've seen first hand in students, residents, etc - really isn't true at all.
