Army ROTC- decision help

[PreMed Nub]

Hello!


So I have read many preceding threads on this topic, but I have a different scenario I need some advice on. Also, some of the posts I read were pretty dated, so I want to make sure I have accurate information. Any input would be tremendously appreciated!


A few weeks ago I was notified of being awarded the ROTC scholarship. I was all on board and very excited until I was doing some research and stumbled upon a thread making me think twice.

Previously, I had immense interest for the program. I believed it would teach me valuable leadership and discipline that would be a great benefit in striving to become a doctor. I am not worried about balancing my time with ROTC in college, and I think it would be an excellent topic (not the only one of course) during medical school interviews in how it has prepared me to deal with stress and taught me leadership and discipline. I am being turned away because of the scary realization that if I do not get accepted into medical school after my first year applying then I will be forced to serve my ROTC commitment immediately and ultimately be screwed over as I do not see it an option to take 4 years off in between undergrad and medical school. Also, if ROTC is not a viable option I would not like to waste time I could have been studying, volunteering, etc.

I am lucky enough to have parents willing to pay for my undergraduate education, but I do not really want to rely on that as it would be quite the burden on them and I rather be self-made. That being said, I am not against that option entirely, but I still need a financial plan for paying for, hopefully, medical school. I have read many threads and am now largely considering HPSP. My desire is to be a physician for the army just not sure what would be the best way of getting there.


Thanks in advance!

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[colbgw02]

ROTC has many benefits, but it's a net negative with respect to medical school admission (assuming you would attend college anyway without it). The talking point you would have during interviews is more than outweighed by its effects on your GPA, MCAT preparation, etc. Besides, ROTC isn't designed to produce medical corps officers, so your desire to go to medical school isn't necessarily important to the accessions board. Imagine holding a medical school acceptance in your hand, but not being able to attend because the military says you can't go.

 

[deleted480308]

ROTC isn't a great plan for premed

 

[PreMed Nub]

ROTC has many benefits, but it's a net negative with respect to medical school admission (assuming you would attend college anyway without it). The talking point you would have during interviews is more than outweighed by its effects on your GPA, MCAT preparation, etc. Besides, ROTC isn't designed to produce medical corps officers, so your desire to go to medical school isn't necessarily important to the accessions board. Imagine holding a medical school acceptance in your hand, but not being able to attend because the military says you can't go.

I was under the impression that if accepted to medical school Army ROTC cadets have a very high, if not definite, chance of recieving educational delay. Is this not the case?

 

[PreMed Nub]

Oh crap, yeah now I remember that being discussed when I originally was considering ROTC. I thought I can just really work hard to make myself look good. It never registered to me there is always the chance I don't stack up well on the OML.

What would you recommend for me to do instead? HPSP?

 

[colbgw02]

I was under the impression that if accepted to medical school Army ROTC cadets have a very high, if not definite, chance of recieving educational delay. Is this not the case?

Historically, yes, but it's not as if it's a regulatory requirement. It's all about the "needs of the Army", so if those needs and yours don't align, then you can look forward to your time in the ordnance corps while your medical school acceptance withers in the trash can. If medicine is your goal, then that's a tremendous, and unnecessary, risk.

What would you recommend for me to do instead? HPSP?

In general terms, for current and prospective physicians who intend to serve, I think it's wise to delay one's commitment to military service as much as possible while in training. This permits you to retain as much control over your education as possible. That isn't to say that HPSP can't be a good deal, but so much of that depends on your particular situation, the details of which you probably won't know at the time you sign the HPSP contract.

 

[AirborneBearcat]

I did ROTC in college and it was probably the best decision I've ever made. I knew I didn't need ROTC to commission as an officer and I could have just gone straight to HPSP or USUHS after college, but I wanted the military and leadership training so I could be the "best I could be," if you will, as an Army doctor. ROTC will also afford you a lot of experiences that are directly applicable to medical school applications. I did a month long summer internship in Landstuhl, Germany and got to scrub into cases and help out as an extra pair of sterile hands in combat casualties. I also did a lot of volunteering in our local community through ROTC and was given a lot of resources to execute the projects (compared to other organizations on campus anyways... The Army is much bigger than whatever fraternity/sorority project) and leadership roles with appropriate mentorship to succeed.

Ultimately, I ended up going to USUHS, but I was surprised at how many civilian schools I was accepted to while waiting on the USUHS acceptance letter despite being an "average competitive applicant" (31 MCAT [2012 version] and 4.0GPA), and I think my experiences in ROTC had a large contribution to that. Of course, this is all speculation, as I don't really know what goes on behind closed doors in various medical school admission's offices across the country.

 

[SirGecko]

I did ROTC and transitioned that to med school and it worked out for me but I would definitely advise against it if you 100% know you want to do medicine. ROTC is not a program to produce doctors, it is there to produce line officers. Joining to have something to talk about during med school interviews is ill advised. I know you said you aren't worried about being able to balance ROTC and premed activities but you should. ROTC is a big time commitment and that shouldn't be taken lightly.

If you can't imagine servicing those four years as a line office do not join ROTC, full stop.

(Though the guy talking about getting medical experience definitely wasn't a thing when I did Navy ROTC. Maybe that is a recent change or maybe the army is just more supportive of people pursuing medical school)

 

[yoskram]

Agree with a lot of the above. Two thoughts:

1. Ask your prospective Rotc battalion for hard numbers: how many went to Med school (or law/dental school) in last five years, how many wanted to go but weren't able to (due to army or due to Rotc getting in the way of premed). Ask numerous sources at the battalion (cadre and cadets). That track record can give you a better idea of likelihood. If it hasn't been done, that's doesn't portend well.

2. This may have changed, but there was/is a non-advertised option of using the Rotc scholarship for first year and being able to quit before 2nd year starts without any obligation for repayment (service or financial).

If #2 above is no longer an option, please don't do Rotc unless you're willing to do the time in a non-doctor capacity. I don't know you or how you will approach the situation, but the odds honestly aren't in your favor.

Lastly, you are presumably 18yo. An Rotc to hpsp path is going to affect you until you turn ~36 at a minimum. Are you ready to make a decision for yourself 18 years down the line? Literally as many years as you've been alive from now. Obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but not by as much as you'd think.
(Edited for prior incorrect math)

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[PreMed Nub]

I did ROTC in college and it was probably the best decision I've ever made. I knew I didn't need ROTC to commission as an officer and I could have just gone straight to HPSP or USUHS after college, but I wanted the military and leadership training so I could be the "best I could be," if you will, as an Army doctor. ROTC will also afford you a lot of experiences that are directly applicable to medical school applications. I did a month long summer internship in Landstuhl, Germany and got to scrub into cases and help out as an extra pair of sterile hands in combat casualties. I also did a lot of volunteering in our local community through ROTC and was given a lot of resources to execute the projects (compared to other organizations on campus anyways... The Army is much bigger than whatever fraternity/sorority project) and leadership roles with appropriate mentorship to succeed.

Ultimately, I ended up going to USUHS, but I was surprised at how many civilian schools I was accepted to while waiting on the USUHS acceptance letter despite being an "average competitive applicant" (31 MCAT [2012 version] and 4.0GPA), and I think my experiences in ROTC had a large contribution to that. Of course, this is all speculation, as I don't really know what goes on behind closed doors in various medical school admission's offices across the country.

Thank you for your response. I am concerned that your experience is not a frequent one, and I do not want to be sucked into something unsavory. What battalion/school did you do ROTC with?

 

[PreMed Nub]

Agree with a lot of the above. Two thoughts:

1. Ask your prospective Rotc battalion for hard numbers: how many went to Med school (or law/dental school) in last five years, how many wanted to go but weren't able to (due to army or due to Rotc getting in the way of premed). Ask numerous sources at the battalion (cadre and cadets). That track record can give you a better idea of likelihood. If it hasn't been done, that's doesn't portend well.

2. This may have changed, but there was/is a non-advertised option of using the Rotc scholarship for first year and being able to quit before 2nd year starts without any obligation for repayment (service or financial).

If #2 above is no longer an option, please don't do Rotc unless you're willing to do the time in a non-doctor capacity. I don't know you or how you will approach the situation, but the odds honestly aren't in your favor.

Lastly, you are presumably 18yo. An Rotc to hpsp path is going to affect you until you turn ~36 at a minimum. Are you ready to make a decision for yourself 18 years down the line? Literally as many years as you've been alive from now. Obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but not by as much as you'd think.
(Edited for prior incorrect math)

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#2 is still an option, so I am considering just sampling ROTC. However, if I were to do ROTC, I would be going to a more expensive school than I would otherwise, so I would need to account for that.

Is USUHS a better option a better option? I do want to be an army physician so keep in mind I do not mind the commitment (as of right now, this may change throughout college but so will my financial plan in that case).

 

[SirGecko]

#2 is still an option, so I am considering just sampling ROTC. However, if I were to do ROTC, I would be going to a more expensive school than I would otherwise, so I would need to account for that.

Is USUHS a better option a better option? I do want to be an army physician so keep in mind I do not mind the commitment (as of right now, this may change throughout college but so will my financial plan in that case).

The financial issue is for sure something that you need to look at. If you can attend college for cheaper without ROTC I would look heavily at that considering your stated goal of not being a line officer. (And your characterization of that outcome as "something unsavory ") I know you say you don't mind a long commitment but you really have no clue what that even means right now. A lot can change in the next 16 to 19 years. (That is the timeframe that you would potentially be committed to the military from college to separation if you go down this road)

As for USUHS being a better option... in comparison to what? USUHS is a medical school not an undergraduate university. It's not an option compared to ROTC, it is an alternative to HPSP.

The best piece of advise I can give you is not to get the military to pay for undergraduate if you goal is to be a doctor and you wouldn't otherwise join the military. ROTC really is more of a program to produce officers and is pretty radically different from any other scholarship program.

 

[Helpful Troll]

... I am being turned away because of the scary realization that if I do not get accepted into medical school after my first year applying then I will be forced to serve my ROTC commitment immediately ...
but I still need a financial plan for paying for, hopefully, medical school. My desire is to be a physician for the army just not sure what would be the best way of getting there.

Some numbers...
FY17-19 there are expected to be 5200 officers commissioned through Army ROTC.
The number of Educational Delays (ED) is not expected to change between now and then. 22-25 medical school delays granted per year. See page 10 of the link below.

The process is self selecting. Hundreds start UG ROTC with the intent of a med school ED. About 50 apply per year. 50 percent (25) are disappointed each year and have to serve on AD as a 'line' officer. A few each year of the 22-25 selected are not accepted to a medical school and are re-accessed to a 'line' officer commitment.

Consider going to the least expensive UG to complete your med school pre requisites. Transfer the ROTC scholarship there if you want to try ROTC for the first year. Late Jr year, if your med school application looks good (GPA, EC's, MCAT, no arrests or IA's), then look at HPSP/USUHS again.

ROTC to med school can be done but there are sooooo many issues that can occur with few chances to correct the course when a single mistake occurs.

ROTC ED does not allow a gap between UG and med school though you could do ROTC and commission in NG/Reserves and apply to med school while in the NG/Reserves. NG/Reserves to med school has it's own issues/distractions though.
https://docs.google.com/presentatio...wOZ92gE7LtI0Sgm2gx99hHNlIy8/edit#slide=id.p33

 

[Helpful Troll]

I was under the impression that if accepted to medical school Army ROTC cadets have a very high, if not definite, chance of recieving educational delay. Is this not the case?

The timing for this is the problem. It is a risk. You still have to have applied for the Ed Delay (ED). If not granted because your PMS ranked you bottom quarter you may not get the ED.

Army ED applications are due early September of your Sr year. The ED application process starts late Jr year with LOR's, transcripts, resume/CV, ... You won't have a med school acceptance this early. See page 23 of the link in my other post in this thread.

The reality is if you have a great MD med school application, great ROTC ED application, and excellent ROTC evaluations you will get the ED. However, you might not get a med school acceptance.

I know of no ED granted after accessed into another branch (Chem, QM, FA, Infantry). Ask this of the PMS.

 

[AirborneBearcat]

Thank you for your response. I am concerned that your experience is not a frequent one, and I do not want to be sucked into something unsavory. What battalion/school did you do ROTC with?

I went to college and did Army ROTC at North Dakota State University. When I applied for an Ed Delay, it was accepted no problem. The requirements for an Ed Delay are wayyyyy lower than the requirements to get accepted to a medical school. The people that were denied an Ed Delay, in my national cohort at least, had no chance of being accepted to a medical school (low GPA, non-competitive MCAT, and poor ROTC evals). This is speculation, but I think that a chunk of those people that apply for Ed Delay are naive about what medical school is in the sense that they think they can "easily" become a doctor through the Army like any other branch in the Army (i.e. Aviation/flight school) - not realizing that USUHS is every bit as competitive as a civilian school and HPSP is just another scholarship for a civilian school, not a guaranteed ticket into a program.


Much like anything, you will get out of ROTC what you put into it. I worked really hard and learned a ton, and I firmly believe it has put me at an advantage over other medical corps officers. Not to mention, a large chunk of the medical corps officers that are unhappy in the military had no prior service or ROTC/Academy time. They joined the military right of the street and direct commissioned. If you do ROTC, you can at least get a pretty firm understanding of what it is like to be in the military and have an opportunity to drop out if you wish after your first year penalty free.

 

[dwb8p]

I went to college and did Army ROTC at North Dakota State University. When I applied for an Ed Delay, it was accepted no problem. The requirements for an Ed Delay are wayyyyy lower than the requirements to get accepted to a medical school. The people that were denied an Ed Delay, in my national cohort at least, had no chance of being accepted to a medical school (low GPA, non-competitive MCAT, and poor ROTC evals). This is speculation, but I think that a chunk of those people that apply for Ed Delay are naive about what medical school is in the sense that they think they can "easily" become a doctor through the Army like any other branch in the Army (i.e. Aviation/flight school) - not realizing that USUHS is every bit as competitive as a civilian school and HPSP is just another scholarship for a civilian school, not a guaranteed ticket into a program.


Much like anything, you will get out of ROTC what you put into it. I worked really hard and learned a ton, and I firmly believe it has put me at an advantage over other medical corps officers. Not to mention, a large chunk of the medical corps officers that are unhappy in the military had no prior service or ROTC/Academy time. They joined the military right of the street and direct commissioned. If you do ROTC, you can at least get a pretty firm understanding of what it is like to be in the military and have an opportunity to drop out if you wish after your first year penalty free.

Like you, I also did ROTC (including AMEDDIP @ LRMC after LDAC) -> USUHS, and am now a PGY4. I disagree that ROTC was a worthwhile endeavor in my career as an Army physician. Compared to my non-ROTC/-USMA peers, I am no better a physician and probably only a marginally better medical corps officer. The time I wasted learning how to lead STX lanes, TLP, preparing for LDAC, etc could have been spent on research, clinical activities, or studying for the MCAT that would have made me a much more competitive medical school candidate. I do agree with you that getting the ED delay was the easy part (at least in the Army). ROTC is also is a terrible financial decision (particularly for people like you and me who attended public colleges), because it precludes you from signing a multiyear retention bonus (previously called MSP - worth up to $240k for my specialty) until 4 years after your peers.

 

[colbgw02]

Much like anything, you will get out of ROTC what you put into it. I worked really hard and learned a ton, and I firmly believe it has put me at an advantage over other medical corps officers. Not to mention, a large chunk of the medical corps officers that are unhappy in the military had no prior service or ROTC/Academy time. They joined the military right of the street and direct commissioned. If you do ROTC, you can at least get a pretty firm understanding of what it is like to be in the military and have an opportunity to drop out if you wish after your first year penalty free.

Former ROTC cadet and medical corps officer here, and the bolded is ridiculous. For one, about 99% of what you learn in AROTC has no bearing on the practice of medicine in the Army, and the remaining 1% is picked up so quickly once on active duty that you become indistinguishable from your HPSP-only peers by the time you figure out where the call room is. Being at USUHS, you should have some idea of how many prior service people are in the medical corps? They're everywhere. Some were enlisted, and some were officers in other branches, but all of them are better prepared for life in the medical corps someone on ED after ROTC, to include all of the non-ROTC USUHS graduates.

 

[colbgw02]

#2 is still an option, so I am considering just sampling ROTC. However, if I were to do ROTC, I would be going to a more expensive school than I would otherwise, so I would need to account for that.

I went to an expensive undergraduate school - one that I had no hope of affording without an ROTC scholarship. What I realize now, but was completely unaware of as a rising sophomore in college, is that I stuck with ROTC in part because I wasn't interested in transferring in light of all of the friendships I'd made and experiences I had as a freshmen. There is absolutely nothing wrong with transferring to a less expensive school after a year if you find out that ROTC isn't for you, but just try to understand that doing so (or not doing so) can easily become an emotional decision.

 

[Atlas Shrugged]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the longer your commitment, the more years you don't get MSP (or whatever the new equivalent is). This means you're losing $38-60,000 per year (if you agree to serve 4 more years past contract) until your ADSO is up.

So for my ROTC classmates, they owe 4+7 = 11 years without MSP. So say you choose general surgery which is currently $60,000 per year you've missed out on approximately $240,000 compared to your off the street USUHS grad. For reference, my undergrad cost me $30,000. Same though process can be applied to those looking at HPSP.

 

[AirborneBearcat]

Former ROTC cadet and medical corps officer here, and the bolded is ridiculous. For one, about 99% of what you learn in AROTC has no bearing on the practice of medicine in the Army, and the remaining 1% is picked up so quickly once on active duty that you become indistinguishable from your HPSP-only peers by the time you figure out where the call room is. Being at USUHS, you should have some idea of how many prior service people are in the medical corps? They're everywhere. Some were enlisted, and some were officers in other branches, but all of them are better prepared for life in the medical corps someone on ED after ROTC, to include all of the non-ROTC USUHS graduates.

I don't think it was a ridiculous claim. I would like to clarify that when I said medical corps officer, I was specifically referring to the military officership duties, and not clinical acumen or knowledge. I agree that ROTC will not make you a better physician over anyone else, unless maybe you want to consider a great work ethic and resiliency that most learn in ROTC (although admittedly you can learn that in the other things you stated - research lab, clinical volunteering, etc). I would also agree that prior service enlisted and other officers that re-branched medical corps are also at an advantage, probably even more so than ROTC only (I was enlisted first as 11B infantryman then did ROTC), compared to direct commissioned HPSP officers. There is something to be said about the experience of going through the same training as the men and women on the frontlines. From a medical corps officership perspective, that experience can only benefit you if you end up serving as a BN/BDE/DIV Surgeon as an adviser to the commander for both medical planning and logistics.

tldr; ROTC doesn't make you a better physician. The military knowledge and training in ROTC/prior service will benefit you if you serve in the deployed or operational environment. If you are not interested in the operational environment and prefer to somehow shape your military medical career without serving in a command or BN/BDE/DIV Surgeon role, then ROTC will not give you a "leg up" over direct commissioners.

 

[AirborneBearcat]

Like you, I also did ROTC (including AMEDDIP @ LRMC after LDAC) -> USUHS, and am now a PGY4. I disagree that ROTC was a worthwhile endeavor in my career as an Army physician. Compared to my non-ROTC/-USMA peers, I am no better a physician and probably only a marginally better medical corps officer. The time I wasted learning how to lead STX lanes, TLP, preparing for LDAC, etc could have been spent on research, clinical activities, or studying for the MCAT that would have made me a much more competitive medical school candidate. I do agree with you that getting the ED delay was the easy part (at least in the Army). ROTC is also is a terrible financial decision (particularly for people like you and me who attended public colleges), because it precludes you from signing a multiyear retention bonus (previously called MSP - worth up to $240k for my specialty) until 4 years after your peers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the longer your commitment, the more years you don't get MSP (or whatever the new equivalent is). This means you're losing $38-60,000 per year (if you agree to serve 4 more years past contract) until your ADSO is up.

So for my ROTC classmates, they owe 4+7 = 11 years without MSP. So say you choose general surgery which is currently $60,000 per year you've missed out on approximately $240,000 compared to your off the street USUHS grad. For reference, my undergrad cost me $30,000. Same though process can be applied to those looking at HPSP.

Wow, that's a bummer. I did not know that. I was told that the MSP contracts were served concurrently with any ADSO, and not stacked at the end of your time commitment. If that really is the case, then ROTC is definitely a poor financial decision. My undergrad tuition at North Dakota State University was only like $8-9k/year.

Edit: Just found a .ppt on the AMEDD website with the new pay system, on slide 12 it breaks down the eligibility requirements for each of the specialty pays. You are correct, what was formerly called MSP is now called RB (Retention Bonus) and you are only eligible after all service obligations are completed.

link: https://hr.mods.army.mil/SpecialPay/Documents/MODS Slide Brief - AC HPO Pay Plan 1 Jan 17.pdf

 

[backrow]

Wow, that's a bummer. I did not know that. I was told that the MSP contracts were served concurrently with any ADSO, and not stacked at the end of your time commitment. If that really is the case, then ROTC is definitely a poor financial decision. My undergrad tuition at North Dakota State University was only like $8-9k/year.

MSP contracts are consecutive. (Well, what used to be called MSP....it will be soon referred to as RB or Retention Bonus in all the Services).

The contracts for ISP (or newly renamed IP) are concurrent.


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[PreMed Nub]

Thank you all for your responses. They are highly appreciated.

I am no longer considering ROTC and will just go to my cheapest undergrad option.

As for medical school financing (I know I have a long way to go but I am curious about it now), has anyone here done USUHS? I was wondering how the environment compares to civilian medical school. Could you please share your experience? I understand it is just as competive but how is the quality of life and the quality of the professors/instructors?

 

[colbgw02]

I don't think it was a ridiculous claim. I would like to clarify that when I said medical corps officer, I was specifically referring to the military officership duties, and not clinical acumen or knowledge. I agree that ROTC will not make you a better physician over anyone else, unless maybe you want to consider a great work ethic and resiliency that most learn in ROTC (although admittedly you can learn that in the other things you stated - research lab, clinical volunteering, etc). I would also agree that prior service enlisted and other officers that re-branched medical corps are also at an advantage, probably even more so than ROTC only (I was enlisted first as 11B infantryman then did ROTC), compared to direct commissioned HPSP officers. There is something to be said about the experience of going through the same training as the men and women on the frontlines. From a medical corps officership perspective, that experience can only benefit you if you end up serving as a BN/BDE/DIV Surgeon as an adviser to the commander for both medical planning and logistics.

tldr; ROTC doesn't make you a better physician. The military knowledge and training in ROTC/prior service will benefit you if you serve in the deployed or operational environment. If you are not interested in the operational environment and prefer to somehow shape your military medical career without serving in a command or BN/BDE/DIV Surgeon role, then ROTC will not give you a "leg up" over direct commissioners.

I mean, sure, I guess. But being a staff officer or commander isn't why most people go to medical school, because those people don't really practice a whole lot of medicine. So if that's your thing, then sure, I suppose ROTC could help a little. But you're talking about an extremely thin cross-section of people, to wit people who prospectively not only understand what those largely non-medical positions are, but actually prefer them. I don't see how that serves as good advice to people considering medicine in general, particularly ones with a stated desire not to be a line officer. And that benefit, as uncommonly applicable as it is, still has to be weighed against the deleterious effects ROTC can have on one's chances of getting into medical school vis-a-vis GPA, MCAT preparation, etc.