San Juan Bautista Loses LCME Accreditation

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SDN would like to discuss the SJB accreditation issue with SJB students who were able to transfer, and those who are still figuring out what to do, for a potential front page article.

If you are interested in being interviewed for the article, please send a private message to HelenaB, the author who will be working on the story, and me (WildWing). She will be in contact with you as she starts work on the article.

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I wasnt going to post but after reading this!! from ponce eh? you must be tough guy behind your computer. I tell you what, I'd rather work in a residency program with the worst SJB vs. this guy up here. Your actually a med student? Im guessing MS-1 right?

There was a post above, I believe from aProgramDirector saying that he/she would not be happy to take in any of the 4th years because of not knowing how competent we are... thats understandable.

Im a 4th year student at SJB. Yeah, it sucks. Actually, I got rejected to every med school when I was 23. Tried for 4 years and never gave up. Eventually, after many failed attempts, at the age of 27 I went to a caribbean school... worked hard, got good grades and a 210/87 on step 1 (It's no 250 but im still proud) and transferred into SJB which at the time was an LCME accredited school as a 3rd year. I had to wait 8 months to start at SJB when I transferred because I couldnt start until august and was accepted in Jan the year prior. Worked hard through my cores, took 3 weeks and got a 214/90 on step 2. Had interviews at UT san antonio, Ut southwestern, UNC, wayne state, and Univ. of Wisconsin. It took me 5 years to get where Im at and it was all taken away this past monday. So Im probably going to have to go back and repeat 3rd and 4th year at another school... maybe even have to start from med 1 which means that Im going to line up with this guy competing for the same residency who posted above about "our MCATS sucking"...

So its probably going to take me 7-8 years to get my MD, 100s of thousands in debt, 37 yrs old... but when the program director has to choose between me and this guy above, you tell me,...who do you think wants it more??

I still stand by my school and still back it as crazy as that sounds. Im proud of my education. Ive been through a TON of obstacles to get where Im at and these tough times have molded me and im sure other students in my position into the people we are. This is just one more obstacle to me... it is what it is.

Props to you for following you dreams! My jaw dropped after reading this...I hope I have the determination you do in the coming years.

Best of luck to those affected by this. Keep your heads up :)
 
SDN would like to discuss the SJB accreditation issue with SJB students who were able to transfer, and those who are still figuring out what to do, for a potential front page article.

If you are interested in being interviewed for the article, please send a private message to HelenaB, the author who will be working on the story, and me (WildWing). She will be in contact with you as she starts work on the article.

This is HelenaB. Please, all those who were able to transfer and those who weren't, reply to this thread. We need your input. Thanks.
 
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8 third years ended up at my DO school in sunny South Florida.

They're in 2nd/3rd year limbo, spending the next couple months learning OMM. Then they take the COMLEX and get put into rotations with the current 2nd years.

Anecdotal, but now everyone knows its possible to transfer from an MD to DO school.
 
8 third years ended up at my DO school in sunny South Florida.

They're in 2nd/3rd year limbo, spending the next couple months learning OMM. Then they take the COMLEX and get put into rotations with the current 2nd years.

Anecdotal, but now everyone knows its possible to transfer from an MD to DO school.

Wow you gotta be kidding me. Now they won't even receive an MD? Now they have to regress back to 1st/2nd year Osteopathic OMM? Man forgive me for saying this but that is sad.
 
Wow you gotta be kidding me. Now they won't even receive an MD? Now they have to regress back to 1st/2nd year Osteopathic OMM? Man forgive me for saying this but that is sad.

Get a grip - at the rate things were going, it sounds like they should be happy they're being given any opportunity to continue their medical education. Quite frankly, are they any worse off at a mainland DO school vs a truly bottom-feeder (albeit once LCME-accredited) Puerto Rican school? They may have traded up here, in fact.
 
Quite frankly, are they any worse off at a mainland DO school vs a truly bottom-feeder (albeit once LCME-accredited) Puerto Rican school? They may have traded up here, in fact.

No, I actually think they are much better off at a mainland DO school than SJB. With that being said, it just sucks they had to complete OMM... maybe they couldve had some special arrangement where they just went on rotations as 3rd and 4th years and eventually graduated (somehow) with an M.D.

Of course, much props to the DO school which took these students in and my thoughts are with the students who got the shaft thanks to SJB.

This is just a horrible situation all around, what more can anyone really say about it.
 
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Hmmm, maybe they opted to complete the OMM portion and graduate as a DO because, I don't know, they wanted to do so? Or because being a physician is all that really mattered to them, no matter the extra( and possibly undesired) extra work?

I'm sure with other schools making room for the SJB students, they could have found an MD program that would take them if the idea of completing the OMM portion was so outrageous to them. This is hardly a disaster for these students.
 
Hmmm, maybe they opted to complete the OMM portion and graduate as a DO because, I don't know, they wanted to do so?

Doubtful

Or because being a physician is all that really mattered to them

True

This is hardly a disaster for these students.

No this is a pretty big disaster.

The $, the extra time (perhaps years added to their education), the stress, etc. Horrible situation. But thankfully the DO school stepped up to help out.
 
doctor shortage... uninsured kids dying...out of control costs... diabeetus!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

brb shutting down med schools. :cool:

lol.
 
Doubtful



True



No this is a pretty big disaster.

The $, the extra time (perhaps years added to their education), the stress, etc. Horrible situation. But thankfully the DO school stepped up to help out.
I'm just saying that having to complete OMM is really the least of their worries....extra time and money + OMM is a way better ending to the story than debt + not becoming a physician of any sort.
 
doctor shortage... uninsured kids dying...out of control costs... diabeetus!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

brb shutting down med schools. :cool:

lol.

Are you arguing that given a shortage of doctors, medical schools no longer need to be held accountable to standards of their medical education?
 
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For anyone still interested about what's really going on at SJB, a couple of new developments have arisen, that are rather pertinent.

First off, let me just say that I'm an MS-1 student at SJB, and unlike the apparently popular perception of SJB students (valid or invalid), I actually had a choice in coming to SJB. Not only that, I chose it over another US medical school--a DO school, if you find that relevant, but that hardly mattered to me. The reason I tell you this is to head off any accusations of "bias" or ulterior motives on my part. This is because, in all honesty, I am biased towards this school; as I would hope most medical students would be, on those rare occasions requiring them to represent their school outside of intercollegiate athletics. But regardless of my declared "conflicts of interest," I'm not here to "sell" SJB, nor convince anyone to change their opinions of this school, whatever they may be. One's personal decision whether or not to come here is just that: personal. And one's opinion--of SJB, or anything that lies between Heaven and Earth--should be based on their own thoughts and experiences, and as much accurate information as is available, rather than the opinions and anonymous web-postings of complete and total strangers.

Instead, I offer the information I have at my disposal, and my own opinion--but only if you care to ask for it, either here or in a private message.

On a similar note, a disclaimer: I cannot (and will not) speak for the general SJB student body, since I am neither on the Student Gov., nor so arrogant as to think that everyone happens to feel the same way that I do. All I can offer is my own perspective, my own personal opinion, my own experiences, and what I have personally seen and heard, myself. If you find that credible, then I am flattered, and humbled by your trust. If you don't, then I respect your opinion, and kindly ask that you share any (sourced) information that I might not be privy to.

On that note, this is what I know, and what I have been told:

Yesterday (February 29th, 2012), the LCME's site visit team left SJB's campus, after a three-day official site visit to evaluate the school for its previously-schedule review of accreditation, as stipulated by the LCME's appeals panel, which awarded the school probationary accreditation back in November of 2011, pending the results of the original site visit scheduled for the Spring 2012 semester. Prior to leaving, the site visit team held an "exit summary" session with the school administrators to go over their findings, and give them a preview of the contents of the report they will be submitting to the LCME for consideration. Immediately after that, the administration held a meeting with the SJB faculty, staff, and student body, to go over the topics discussed at the exit summary.

They (the administration) spoke about how the exit summary they received was generally very positive. The LCME site visit team explained that they were very pleased with the positive changes and direction the school is heading. They cited the school's preparation of the database required by the LCME as one area worthy of particular mention.

They (the LCME site visit team) also mentioned how pleased they were with the school's work in research, and the faculty research going on in other universities. They noted the students' dedication to service and service learning projects, and feel that the extracurricular activities are well organized. They found Financial Aid services to be very good. They also noted that the financial situation of the school is adequate and stable, and that they were very pleased with the morning meeting they had with the Secretary of Health of Puerto Rico, and the assurances made at that meeting--both to them, and to the school.

The LCME site visit team also acknowledged that there have been a number of strategies and improvements implemented in the Basic Sciences; however, more data needs to be collected (and thus, more time needs to pass) before they can quantitatively establish to what degree they have been effective. Thus, the administration stated that they expect a great deal of follow-up from the LCME with respect to their progress, and the need to periodically send further of documentation showing that progress. The LCME site visit team also mentioned how the USMLE scores have continued to improve, although they did mention their desire to see them continue to rise even higher in the future.

(But then again, don't we all? ^_^)

The LCME site visit committee said that a positive outcome of the accreditation loss, was that it prompted SJB to create many more affiliations with hospitals, in order to establish a more comprehensive set of clinical education resources. They did mention that specific rotations needed to be modified, and that protocols and agreements need to be made as part of ongoing contingency plans for certain situations.

One thing the LCME site visit team made a point of emphasizing, however, was that their mandate was to simply report their findings, and that (as with all official site visits) it is up to the LCME Committee at large to take that information, and based on those results, to make their decisions and recommendations accordingly. The LCME team also noted before they left that they were very impressed with the students, their commitment to serving others, and their deep and evident desire to practice medicine.

They also offered us some procedural notes, which were part of other meetings and information sent out well in advance of the site team's visit. As I understand it, LCME policy in regards to official site visits are as follows: after the site visit team leaves, they have 30 days to compile the information they collected and issue a preliminary draft report to the school. After receiving the draft report, SJBSM has 30 days to issue any notes, clarifications, rebuttals, or responses to the report, at which point they send the annotated report back to the LCME, which then has 30 days to review their notes and attach any further commentary or clarification they feel is necessary. After that, the completed and finalized report is sent to the LCME committee for review, which issues their decision at their next regularly-scheduled meeting, which I believe is some time in June of this year.

After issuing their decision, the school has another 30 days to accept or issue an appeal to that decision. If they choose to appeal, the LCME must schedule an appeals hearing no more than 30 days later. At the appeal, the panel considers all the information and arguments presented by both the LCME and the school's representatives, and after the appeals panel adjourns, they must issue their final recommendation no less than 30 days later, and which is effective immediately, upon release.

(NB: All of this assumes that neither the school nor the LCME requests additional time to collect their data, organize their findings, or construct their responses--which has been known to happen, albeit infrequently)

Thus, the earliest that we could have an official, final word from the LCME is some time in June--and realistically, probably well after that.

Hopefully, this clarifies matters somewhat. ^_^
 
Thus, the earliest that we could have an official, final word from the LCME is some time in June--and realistically, probably well after that.

Hopefully, this clarifies matters somewhat. ^_^

So as to the most important point here, does that mean your MS4's aren't getting screwed over with the match?
 
Well, again I'm an MS-1, so I can't really speak for them, and I certainly don't claim to know their individual situations.

But to my understanding, SJBSM is still accredited (albeit on a probationary basis) until the LCME explicitly dictates otherwise; which they cannot do--at least, not according to my understanding of their standard operating procedure--until June when the LCME meets to discuss the case.

By that time, I believe, all the current MS-4s will have already applied for and heard back from the AAMC residency matching service. Furthermore, MS-2s, MS-3s, and MS-4s are all still eligible to sit for and take the USMLE Steps, and access all services and products offered by the AAMC and the AMA in support of students enrolled in LCME-accredited medical programs.

In regards to specifics, I posted some of these facts in the forum for the 2011-2012 Application thread:

*At present, MS-3 students at SJB are offered clinical rotations at Mennonite Health Systems Hospitals, Ryder Memorial Hospital, Metro-Pavia Hospital, Professional Hospital-Guynabo, the Correctional Psychiatric Hospital, First Panamerican Hospital-Cidra, First Panamerican Hospital-Ponce, Hato Rey-Pavia Hospital, COSSMA (6 Federally Qualified Centers), Gurabo Community Health Center, SANOS Corporation, and the Rio Piedras Family Medicine and Geriatric Center.

[NB: Mennonite Health Systems were the ones who purchased the SJB Hospital. As part of the purchase agreement, MHS will allow MS-3s from SJB to access their network of clinics for rotations which now includes the former SJB facility, and have already invested $1M in renovating and repairing the SJB hospital.]

*The same facilities available for MS-3 rotations also provide slots for MS-4 students' required and elective clinical rotations. Additionally, there are slots at the VA Hospital, San Juan City Hospital, UPR School of Medicine, and other facilities on the US mainland.

*Additionally, MS-4s are also able to enroll in clinical rotations on the US mainland via the Visiting Student Application Service (VSAS)

All of this has been true since November of 2011, when the new appeals panel of the LCME stated that the former decision had been the result of a "procedural error," and that while they upheld the findings of the special "fact-finding" mission, they did not rise to the level of "critical need" necessary to qualify for summary revocation of accreditation outside of the normal, pre-approved cycle of site visits and accreditation review.

Which (again, to my understanding) is why they extended probationary accreditation only until the results from the February site visit came in--which was when the school was originally slated to be officially reviewed, as per the original agreement signed back in 2007. Instead of extending probation for a full two years as is typical for issuing probation to schools experiencing the normal cycle of accreditation reviews (e.g. Ponce School of Medicine, which just got off their 2-year probation), they stated that the case should revert back to the terms of original agreement, which they ruled should not have been circumvented in the first place. Thus, the official site visit in February.

Hopefully, that answers your question?
 

Indeed! Apologies, as for a moment there both memory AND Google failed me--which was an unsettling experience, and the first time that's happened...>_>

But yeah, did I get that right about the matching dates being before June? I'm pretty sure that this year's MS-4s should be alright--regardless of what happens after.
 
Indeed! Apologies, as for a moment there both memory AND Google failed me--which was an unsettling experience, and the first time that's happened...>_>

But yeah, did I get that right about the matching dates being before June? I'm pretty sure that this year's MS-4s should be alright--regardless of what happens after.

Well, match day is in less than 3 weeks now I beleive, s if everything else you said was correct, then yes they should be fine.
 
Any updates on this situation?
As of yet, no official updates, however the school did state that they had received the LCME's review of the site visit team's report. This was about a month ago, at which point the school discussed with us in broad terms the report's findings, as well as the addenda, comments, and rebuttals the administration would be making as part of their review of the LCME's report.

From what I understand, the LCME will discuss the survey report sometime in the next few days, and within a week or two they will call the school to inform them about their decision, probably 24 hours or so before the announcement is made public. This will probably occur sometime in mid-June.

I can't really get into any specifics about the report, at least not until the final decision is announced, but the long and short of it is they are very confident they will at least get probation again in June--if not complete accreditation. Suffice it to say that the school was on the whole generally satisfied with the report, since its contents were fairly promising, and since they've already made incredible progress on the areas of note listed.

A couple things which were not mentioned in the report, but which the school wanted to convey to us regardless:

-Hospital Mennonita (formerly SJB Hospital) is planned to have a 150-bed capacity within the next three months or so. The Mennonite Health Systems which bought the facility has already invested over $1M in the property, and has pledged to commit more support as the facility expands and grows.

-No grants or external funding sources for the school have been lost as a result of this incident, and the faculty continue to apply for more research grants both from NIH and others. In fact, several students from my year will be doing research in their labs for their summer research internships.

-The Middle States Association which accredits all graduate programs of the school (including the MD program and MPH) have said they will have accreditation until 2015 at least. This doesn't mean a whole lot for the MD program since only the LCME accreditation is valid for licensing--however if you don't have MSA accreditation or its equivalent, then by definition you can't have LCME accreditation. That is to say, it is "necessary" for an MD program, but not "sufficient."

Also, on a more personal note, I've already registered for classes next semester and paid my tuition, so it kinda goes without saying that I'm fairly confident in this school's future, at least in the near term.

Regardless, best of luck to everyone, and let me know if you have any more questions. Check back around June 15th or so, since they should have a final, official word by then.
 
Well, match day is in less than 3 weeks now I beleive, s if everything else you said was correct, then yes they should be fine.
Which reminds me!

Graduation for this year's MS-4s was this Thursday, which I'm sure was very emotional, although I was unable to attend. Also, Match Day was over a month ago, and to my knowldege went off without a hitch. I didn't get the full tally of placements for people since I didn't really know the MS-4s all that well, but some of the names I heard being dropped around were places like "Mayo Clinic," "Johns Hopkins," and "UC-[something or other]."

So, yeah, I think it's safe to say that this year's MS-4s are doing alright, and hopefully you'll join me in wishing them the best of luck in the months and years ahead.

^_^
 
...and this is what I get for not checking post dates.
 
I just read that SJB lost their LCME accreditation. I think they are the first US school to ever lost accreditation from LCME. So I guess the number of US med schools in Puerto Rico just went from 4 to 3.

Does this make SJB a caribbean school now? They have something of a split personality because technically they are in the US being in a US territory, but unlike the other 3 school on the island (UPR, Ponce, UCC) they don't have LCME so they are no longer "US". I think this would make applying for residency much more difficult, similar to coming from a Caribbean school like Ross.

Here is the LCME announcement:
PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT, October, 3, 2011
LCME Withdraws Accreditation from the San Juan Bautista School of Medicine
Effective October 3, 2011, the LCME has withdrawn accreditation from the educational program leading to the MD degree at the San Juan Bautista School of Medicine. This decision was based primarily on the LCME's assessment of inadequate clinical resources. This decision is final. The notification letter sent to the program informed it of its right to provide official comment to the U.S. Department of Education and to the LCME. If the program chooses to exercise this option, copies of the comments will be made available to the public by request. A copy of the letter notifying the program of this decision is available here: http://www.lcme.org/sjb3oct2011letter.pdf
SJB Recovered itvs LC ME Accreditation and is nos on probation. Ir has received 17 millón dólares from the Menonite Foundation to refurbish its University Hospital,,,,!,,,,,,
 
SJB Recovered itvs LC ME Accreditation and is nos on probation. Ir has received 17 millón dólares from the Menonite Foundation to refurbish its University Hospital,,,,!,,,,,,

Your post is a little difficult to follow. "nos on probation" is spanglish for "we're on probation".
 
Alguien me puede confirmar esto!!!!????Can anyone say this is true!!!???
 
Alguien me puede confirmar esto!!!!????Can anyone say this is true!!!???
Not since October, no. I've asked the forum thread creator to revise this title, but they've refused to do so so far.

In any event, here's the scoop in case you don't feel like re-reading the whole schpiel:

The LCME did withdraw accreditation briefly on October 3rd of 2011, however it was returned barely one month later on a probationary basis, after the school filed a lawsuit. Since November 3rd, the school has held accreditation "on probation."

In February of 2012, the LCME held a site visit--as it was previously scheduled to, as part of the normal accreditation procedures, established back in 2007 when the school was first awarded accreditation--and the official decision on the site visit committee's report will arrive some time in mid June. Probably in the next few days, in fact.

I haven't seen the report personally, of course, since that is held in strictest confidence, however the school has shared their overall impressions of the report and their responses to its findings, and they are optimistic that the school will receive probation again--if not FULL accreditation again--when the LCME makes their announcement.

It should be noted that even with probation, the school IS accredited in full by the LCME, and all SJB students are entitled to all the same services and rights as students of any other LCME-accredited school.

Tune in next time for another exciting episode of "Esperanza de Medicina: La Saga de San Juan Bautista."

XD
 
Esto en realidad pudo haber sido una bendicion. Ahora estos estudiantes van a tener un hospital remodelado en adicion tienen el "backing" de el dapartamento de salud de Puuerto Rico. En realidad me sorperende toda la baba que hablan estos estudiantes de premedica q son un chorro de come m. Si saben algo este hospital va a estar bien 'ready' y considero esta Escuela de Medicina como un 'dark horse' de todas las escuelas de medicina. Y hay in acuerdo para mantener este hospital como el teaching hospital de San Juan Bautista. Como dicen no hay mal q por bien no venga. Voy a estar pendiente en los proximos meses porque creo q esta escuela va a coger vuelo en los proximos a~os. HE DICHO.

http://www.elperiodicopr.com/index....spital-de-caguas&catid=69:noticias&Itemid=124
 
Those are AWESOME NEWS!!!!!
With the new affiliation SJB will become the premier medical school in PR.
LCME will not have any reason now but to reinstate full accreditation .
 
The Dean of the Medical School has just informed the student body the SJB has retained its LCME accreditation.
Congratulations
 
That's the million-peso question, isn't it? According to the LCME, their website hasn't been updated yet--and won't be until the decision is published in writing.

Right now it says "Full Accreditation -- On Probation," like it has since 2011.

So, to answer your question:

"Yes."

@_@
 
Do you know about what happened to the handful of people who transferred? Will they have the option of coming back? It sounds like a lot of them had to revert back a year or so, especially those who switched to DO schools.
 
No idea. I have a feeling, though, that even if they do come back, they'd probably have to repeat the year they transferred for. That's because most would've transferred smack dab in the middle of the year, after completing only one semester of "MS-X." If they come back, they'll probably come back as a transfer again, so I'm not sure if that would help.

Still, I hope they do come back--we certainly miss them. ^_^
 
So Crazed, I have a BS in Biology. I have about a 3.3 cGPA and about a 3.0 sGPA (that's a guess, so far I have only filled out AACOMAS for DO schools, which allows retakes to replace the original, they show my gap's as higher than that). I already took the MCAT and got a 29. I am as much a non-Hispanic mainlander as can be, but I do speak Spanish fluently. My extra-curriculars are somewhat thin, though I am still working on improving those, Do you think I would be competitive if I apply?
 
You certainly could be, especially with your cGPA and sGPA. Your MCAT is about dead-average, I'd say, but most PR schools (SJB included) tend to be much more forgiving of mediocre MCATs, especially in the Verbal section. This is because they're used to attracting PR applicants who are not the strongest at written English comprehension. As long as you didn't score less than an 8 or a 9 in any one section, I think you'll be alright.

As to your extracurriculars, I couldn't say without knowing more specifics, but based on just what you've told me so far, I think you have a very good shot.
 
You certainly could be, especially with your cGPA and sGPA. Your MCAT is about dead-average, I'd say, but most PR schools (SJB included) tend to be much more forgiving of mediocre MCATs, especially in the Verbal section. This is because they're used to attracting PR applicants who are not the strongest at written English comprehension. As long as you didn't score less than an 8 or a 9 in any one section, I think you'll be alright.

As to your extracurriculars, I couldn't say without knowing more specifics, but based on just what you've told me so far, I think you have a very good shot.

Thanks.
 
wow, i spent the last 1-2 hours reading these post and just imagining how awful the feeling of this students knowing that accreditation was taken from them especially the 4th year looking for a residency spot and then having all this back and forth. Holy cow.

I graduated from Ponce School of Medicine in 2006 and I really felt your pain reading this posts!!
 
Wanted to update the discussion thread for those considering applying here. After having a positive LCME survey visit this past January, San Juan Bautista is now fully accredited by the LCME, which can be confirmed by going to this link: http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm . There are currently three US medical schools on probation (Baylor, Louisville and Rosalind Franklin), along with one Canadian school (Sasketchewan), but as of today San Juan Bautista no longer falls into this category.

I am a first-year student here and we were informed today that the LCME had lifted the probationary status, which the school had been under since November of 2011. The school will be reviewed again by the LCME in 2017-18.
 
Wanted to update the discussion thread for those considering applying here. After having a positive LCME survey visit this past January, San Juan Bautista is now fully accredited by the LCME, which can be confirmed by going to this link: http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm . There are currently three US medical schools on probation (Baylor, Louisville and Rosalind Franklin), along with one Canadian school (Sasketchewan), but as of today San Juan Bautista no longer falls into this category.

I am a first-year student here and we were informed today that the LCME had lifted the probationary status, which the school had been under since November of 2011. The school will be reviewed again by the LCME in 2017-18.
I wouldn't compare San Juan Bautista to the situations of Baylor, Louisville, or Rosalind Franklin if I were you, since it took nearly 2.5 years for SJB to get off probation (after first losing accredidation, and then a lawsuit, etc.)

Edit: Correction: SJB lost accredidation after prior having full accredidation due to their hospital going bankrupt, and was never actually on probation.
 
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I wouldn't compare San Juan Bautista to Baylor, Louisville, or Rosalind Franklin if I were you, since it took nearly 2.5 years to get off probation (after first losing accredidation, and then a lawsuit, etc.)

Lo siento pero when did I compare the school to the ones you listed above? I was simply stating that there are 4 LCME schools on probation but earlier today there were 5. I feel that you are reading things into my post that simply are not there. I made no comments on the relative quality of the schools currently listed as on probation, because I do not know much, if anything, about them. As it pertains to the loss of accreditation, a federal court ruled on October 28, 2011 that the LCME had violated the school's due process rights in the way that they conducted the initial appeal hearing. Have you actually read the court decision and followed the history of the school? https://casetext.com/case/escuela-de-medicina-san-juan-bautista-v-lcme I feel the need to clarify a few things for you. But here are the cliffnotes: the court found that the LCME violated their own procedures in revoking the accreditation. This violation constituted a federal due process violation, which was remediable. The LCME was then ordered to conduct the appeal hearing once again in a more proper manner, and after the LCME did so, they decided to place the school on probation. The school was visited in January of 2012 by the LCME and a Spring 2012 decision was made by the LCME to maintain probation because there were still a few issues that needed to be addressed by the school. The LCME gave them two years to do so and re-visited the school in January of 2014. The survey visit went well and LCME decided last month to remove the school from probation. Now you mentioned in your post that it took 2.5 years for them to come off probation and while that is technically true, it belies some of the facts. Anyone taking a glance at the timeline here would realize that a school which had their accreditation illegally revoked might not find 3 months to be an adequate amount of time (between October 2011 and January 2012) in order to remedy the issues cited in the LCME report. San Juan Bautista did, however, maintain their probationary status after this first site visit. At the very next opportunity after the initial visit, San Juan Bautista had their accreditation fully restored. This is really no small point. No school had ever been placed in this situation before. Historically, schools with problems have always been placed on probation and been given a year or so to remedy them, but due to the timeline and special circumstances here, San Juan Bautista was visited twice before being restored to full accreditation.

It is important to clarify that the federal court was not responsible for restoring San Juan Bautista's LCME accreditation which you did sort of imply in the end of your post. The judge made it clear in his ruling that he was not ordering this outcome and that the only required matter was a new LCME appeals panel with completely different members than the original panel in order to remedy the due process violation. This new LCME appeals panel met in the fall of 2011 after the lawsuit was filed, and decided unanimously if I remember correctly that the school should be placed on probation. Again, the judge made it clear in his decision that he was not ordering the restoration of accreditation. He was only ordering a new appeal hearing with three different members. It was the LCME's decision to order the school to be re-accredited with probation.
 
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This new LCME appeals panel met in the fall of 2011 after the lawsuit was filed, and decided unanimously if I remember correctly that the school should be placed on probation.
Yes, it's amazing what a lawsuit will do to get an accrediting body to change their mind.

Edit: Correction: SJB lost accredidation after prior having full accredidation due to their hospital going bankrupt.
 
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Yes, it's amazing what a lawsuit will do to get an accrediting body to change their mind (remember San Juan Batista was placed on probation at the very beginning - the actual taking away of accreditation wasn't till later), just ask Tonya Harding.

San Juan Bautista was not placed on probation at the very beginning. Are you simply making these things up? The history of the accreditation is detailed in the federal court decision linked above. They were preliminary accredited, and then provisionally accredited, following the path of all newly accredited LCME school. The school's affiliated hospital filed for bankruptcy, and after a corresponding site visit, LCME voted to revoke the accreditation of the school. The school appealed but the appeals panel was constituted in a manner that would lead some to suspect a possible due process violation, and this appeals panel upheld the loss of accreditation. SJB then filed suit and won. Please show me some evidence that San Juan Bautista was placed on probation at the very beginning, and I'm not talking about being preliminarily/provisionally accredited like all new schools are. I would like to see some evidence from you that the school was placed on probation by the LCME before the decision was made to revoke the accreditation. I find it very inappropriate that are you are in this school-specific thread insulting my school and making baseless accusations with zero evidence to back up any of your claims. It smacks of libel and the Tonya Harding reference is tasteless. I did not insult other medical schools, DermViser, so I am unsure why you feel/felt the need to insult mine.

Edit: I only posted in this thread to make students aware of the fact that this school is no longer on LCME probation. I felt that some might want to research the school (as I did) before deciding to apply, given the particular history, and I wanted them to have access to the most accurate and updated information as possible. I'm sorry that it ended up going down this road.
 
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San Juan Bautista was not placed on probation at the very beginning. Are you simply making these things up? The history of the accreditation is detailed in the federal court decision linked above. They were preliminary accredited, and then provisionally accredited, following the path of all newly accredited LCME school. The school's affiliated hospital filed for bankruptcy, and after a corresponding site visit, LCME voted to revoke the accreditation of the school. The school appealed but the appeals panel was constituted in a manner that would lead some to suspect a possible due process violation, and this appeals panel upheld the loss of accreditation. SJB then filed suit and won. Please show me some evidence that San Juan Bautista was placed on probation at the very beginning, and I'm not talking about being preliminarily/provisionally accredited like all new schools are. I would like to see some evidence from you that the school was placed on probation by the LCME before the decision was made to revoke the accreditation. I find it very inappropriate that are you are in this school-specific thread insulting my school and making baseless accusations with zero evidence to back up any of your claims. It smacks of libel and the Tonya Harding reference is tasteless.
Sorry, try again. This is the ALLOPATHIC forum. This is not a school specific thread. You can go find that under "Allopathic Class Threads". You don't think that a medical school losing their teaching hospital (whether to bankruptcy or whatever is irrelevant) should mean something towards whether or not they are accredited? If anything, you've done your school a disservice by bumping this thread up again.
 
Sorry, try again. This is the ALLOPATHIC forum. This is not a school specific thread. You can go find that under "Allopathic Class Threads". You don't think that a medical school losing their teaching hospital (whether to bankruptcy or whatever is irrelevant) should mean something towards whether or not they are accredited? If anything, you've done your school a disservice by bumping this thread up again.

Show your evidence that the school was placed on probation before having their accreditation revoked or retract that false statement. Your post gives the impression that the school was given years to remedy this situation. Obviously you have a right to comment in any thread in the allopathic forum but you also have an obligation to only post true statements in message threads that discuss medical schools. You are doing the school a disservice by posting false information (deliberately?) in a thread that, while not located in the school-specific forum, is still a school-specific thread. This thread was created to discuss the loss of accreditation of SJB, which was reversed soon after. The probation has just been lifted. You, for some reason I cannot ascertain, find this difficult to accept. That is not my problem. But that does not give you the right to post false statements about a medical school when you have no knowledge of the situation and when the facts are clearly googleable to anyone who would take the time. I have tried to save them some of the time by responding to your factless posts with actual evidence to support my claims.
 
Show your evidence that the school was placed on probation before having their accreditation revoked or retract that false statement. Your post gives the impression that the school was given years to remedy this situation. Obviously you have a right to comment in any thread in the allopathic forum but you also have an obligation to only post true statements in message threads that discuss medical schools. You are doing the school a disservice by posting false information (deliberately?) in a thread that, while not located in the school-specific forum, is still a school-specific thread. This thread was created to discuss the loss of accreditation of SJB, which was reversed soon after. The probation has just been lifted. You, for some reason I cannot ascertain, find this difficult to accept. That is not my problem. But that does not give you the right to post false statements about a medical school when you have no knowledge of the situation and when the facts are clearly googleable to anyone who would take the time. I have tried to save them some of the time by responding to your factless posts with actual evidence to support my claims.
Again, if a school loses its main teaching hospital, do you believe a school should remain accredited?
 
Again, if a school loses its main teaching hospital, do you believe a school should remain accredited?

I will not play this game with you. I've already reported your posts and asked that the ones which contain clearly false information be removed because you refused to substantiate them. You refuse to address the points outlined in my posts to you. That is not my problem. It is inappropriate for you to dodge inquiries about the falsehoods present in your posts by asking me to give my personal opinion when it is really not relevant to this situation. Facts are relevant. Let's replay this. I posted an update to the school's probation status. You then responded by claiming that I compared SJB to other medical schools (I did not). I then responded to you by outlining some misconceptions implied in your post. You then responded to me by insulting the school, posting a hazy generalization having something to do with your general opinion of the power of lawsuits, and refusing to address any of my points. I then responded to you again to clarify even more falsehoods and again asked you to provide some evidence to support your assertions, which you up till now have refused to do. Why is that? We were discussing the facts of the situation and you are hiding behind red herring fallacies in order to do it. I find it to be very inappropriate.
 
I will not play this game with you. I've already reported your posts and asked that the ones which contain clearly false information be removed because you refused to substantiate them. You refuse to address the points outlined in my posts to you. That is not my problem. It is inappropriate for you to dodge inquiries about the falsehoods present in your posts by asking me to give my personal opinion when it is really not relevant to this situation. Facts are relevant. Let's replay this. I posted an update to the school's probation status. You then responded by claiming that I compared SJB to other medical schools (I did not). I then responded to you by outlining some misconceptions implied in your post. You then responded to me by insulting the school, posting a hazy generalization having something to do with your general opinion of the power of lawsuits, and refusing to address any of my points. I then responded to you again to clarify even more falsehoods and again asked you to provide some evidence to support your assertions, which you up till now have refused to do. Why is that? We were discussing the facts of the situation and you are hiding behind red herring fallacies in order to do it. I find it to be very inappropriate.

I am going to explain this calmly and rationally to you. Whether you choose to report my posts which you'll likely do regardless, is up to you.

The school was accredited back in 2007. The school's main teaching hospital then had to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy: http://www.noticel.com/noticia/102405. On October 3, 2011, the LCME withdrew its accreditation of SJB. On October 12, 2011, SJB filed a federal lawsuit against the LCME, AMA, and the AAMC, in the District Court of Puerto Rico. On November 18, 2011, The LCME Appeals Panel reconvened, and affirmed each of the areas of non-compliance originally cited by the LCME. However, rather than maintain the loss of accreditation, the panel instead placed the medical education program on probationary accreditation, pending the LCME's consideration of the results of a full survey visit to take place on January 29 – February 1, 2012. After the site visit held on February 2012, in the June 2012 LCME Meeting, the school was granted with a Full Accreditation-On Probation.

1) You said in your post (after bumping up a 3 year old thread)
There are currently three US medical schools on probation (Baylor, Louisville and Rosalind Franklin), along with one Canadian school (Sasketchewan), but as of today San Juan Bautista no longer falls into this category.

So yes you were directly comparing those schools to San Juan Bautista, by saying unlike the others, SJB is no longer on probation. The problems that SJB had, are nowhere close to the reasons that for example, Baylor had, with respect to accredidation.

2) Yes, after further looking, you are correct, SJB wasn't preliminarily placed on probation. It's even worse (see below): http://gilthejenius.blogspot.com/2011/10/bitch-slapping-brugal-sjbull****ters.html.

3) Nothing vague about what I said -- lawsuits DO in fact get people to change their decisions due to fear, whether it's right or wrong. Is any of the above incorrect? If so, please show and link to the correct information. Again, the question is, should a medical school stay accredited when their main teaching hospital has filed for bankruptcy and gone under?
The School, in its public and very limited utterings about this devastating decision, said it was "shocked" at this result. Waffling and wasting time, their petition for injunctive relief, though, was based on the following three points (LR p.28):

(1) That the LCME failed to provide SJB adequate notice and opportunity to be heard concerning the specific accreditation standards cited by the LCME in withdrawing accreditation;
(2) That the SJB should have been afforded an opportunity to cure any deficiencies prior to withdrawal of its accreditation; and
(3) That the LCME denied SJB its “fundamental right” to an unbiased decision maker by appointing a current LCME member to the independent appeals panel.

In a nutshell, the Report found deficiencies in USMLE results (licensing exams), the SJB's income profile and yes, "inadequate medical resources," with far-reaching implications.
About the USMLE results, the LCME found that "Between the 2008 and 2010 academic years, the first-time pass rate of SJB students on Step Two of the United States Medical Licensure Examination (USMLE) dropped from 94% to 71%, whereas the national pass rate for that period was over 95%. The first-time pass rate of SJB’s students on Step One declined from 33% to 32% over the same period, as compared to the national average exceeding 90%." (LR, p.2)

Furthermore, "(T)he LCME cited the precipitous decline in percentage of students who passed Step Two of the USMLE, which tests for clinical knowledge and skills – from 94% in 2008 to just 71% in 2010, compared to the national average of 95% and above throughout the time period." (LR, p.20)

More data about these deficiencies are found in EQ page 9, with the LCME citing the "downward trend" as a sign of a "precipitous" drop in education quality. In brief, the SJB was not preparing its students to be anywhere near passing range on the very basic licensing exams all U.S.-accredited medical students must pass. The School knew this, for medical schools are judged on this very aspect (rightly or wrongly, it's part of the rules of the game) and follow-ups in 2008 and 2009 by the LCME made this a key concern.

Rapid and precipitous deterioration in the quality of an educational program may be sufficient grounds for withdrawal of accreditation, whether or not a limited visit or probationary period had preceded the decision to withdraw accreditation. (Quoted in LR p.35 & EQ p.2).

The SJB's income profile was also a major concern for the LCME. As noted in EQ page 8, the average private medical school relies about 4% on tuition for its operational budgets. The SJB was deemed to have a reliance of 70%. From EQ page 9:

Comments: As noted, the number of enrolled students (and visiting students) put pressure on the already stressed clinical resources of the institution. The medical school is heavily dependent on tuition as a revenue source. Data provided by the institution (pages 18-21) showed very limited support from grants and contracts (less than $100,000), no revenue from a practice plan, and no revenue from gifts and endowments. Visiting students contributed significant revenue ($172,000 in 2010-2011, as stated in the survey report).

Comments: As noted, the number of enrolled students (and visiting students) put pressure on the already stressed clinical resources of the institution. The medical school is heavily dependent on tuition as a revenue source. Data provided by the institution (pages 18-21) showed very limited support from grants and contracts (less than $100,000), no revenue from a practice plan, and no revenue from gifts and endowments. Visiting students contributed significant revenue ($172,000 in 2010-2011, as stated in the survey report).

The San Juan Bautista Hospital is affiliated with the SJBSOM and serves as its primary clinical resource, but it does not own or operate it as such (Exhibit N, p.3; in hand.). The SJB likes to boast that it is the only medical school in Puerto Rico with such an arrangement. The LCME's increased interest in the Hospital and its effect on the School began in October 2010, as indicated in LR page 14:

In October of 2010, the LCME learned that the Puerto Rico Electric Power Authority had threatened to shut off power to the Medical Center because the utility claimed that the Medical Center owed more than $21 million in unpaid electric power bills.

The LCME requested a report on this situation; the SJB submitted its report on December 13, 2010. (LR p.14)

As the electric bill and other problems (cash flow, labor, services, safety) piled up in the Hospital, the SJB decided to "protect" the Hospital by declaring bankruptcy. Even though the Hospital was and is the key component in the School's clinical education services, here's what happened:
On March 24, 2011, the LCME learned from press reports that the Medical Center had filed for bankruptcy on March 18, 2011. (LR p.14) [Emphasis Mine].
Although nearly a week had elapsed since the filing, the LCME received no notice from SJB of the bankruptcy of its principal teaching hospital. (LR p.15) [Emphasis Mine.]

Again see here for the full story: http://gilthejenius.blogspot.com/2011/10/bitch-slapping-brugal-sjbull****ters.html, and please tell us what was incorrect.
 
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