Serious question for serious professionals

[dr.dbz]

It's been ages SDN, good to see you again. Coming back to these forums in my senior year as a pre-pharm, looking to glean some guidance from the depths of your ever-insightful wells of wisdom and guidance lol (but seriously, I remember some of you being quite articulate and pleasant from my freshman year, so hopefully more of the same in this discussion).

I'm aware many threads like this exist, but of course in typical millennial fashion I think I'm a special snowflake i.e. my situation is a bit unorthodox. If there are better means of resources that address my concerns elsewhere on this forum, I appreciate you kindly redirecting my attention, as it has been some time since I've chatted on here with you guys

Long story short, I am in a conundrum concerning my choice of the pharmacy path.

In the past year or so working as a pharmacy technician at a major retail chain I've grown somewhat jaded in respect to where our American multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry is headed, and consequently where our future careers are being dragged to. In no small part did the wonderful pharmacists, both tenured and experienced as they were, (with visible paper cut scars and carpal tunnel syndrome from the decades pulling 12-ers sorting hardcopies and counting pills lol) influence my swelling discontent. Along with my associates already in grad school (mostly P1's and 2's), and the general consensus of the old-heads here on SDN, there seems to be a culminating maelstrom of "don't do it kid, change your mind while you still can", and sentiments like "schools across the nation are welcoming sub-3.0 students who are willing to trade a signature on the dotted line for a 200k ball and chain into their programs with a smile and a handshake; this market saturation should worry you."

The latter of those attitudes held by professionals in this field has been especially eye-opening for a 23 year old lad like myself. On more than one separate occasion I've had float pharmacists flat out ask me "why not MD?!" Which brings me to my question: Is it ever too late for a prospective doctor to steer the ship in another direction?

Let me shoot some quick facts about myself for all you analytical types and wrap up this novel lol.

-Graduated HS with a 3.5 and a 1900 on the SAT, which put me in the top 19% if I remember. English is not my first language, and teachers generally pegged me as quite the introspective and bright bloke with potential.
-Freshman year is when the family conflicts and personal health issues hit, as life tends to do sometimes. Got C's in my gen chem and A&P series, which ensured I was hazardously floating just above a 2.5 in my first year. Last year, tensions in my personal life peaked and I got a C, F, and D in my physics series. This was the major wake up call I needed since I've never failed a course in my life until this point.
-Since then, things have been on a positive upward trend. I aced my organic chemistry and calculus series, got B's throughout biochem, and managed to pull myself up to a 3.1 cGPA and 3.3 science to date. I am planning to retake the physics set this summer, and with the solid grasp I now have with the derivative and integral background, I am confident I will end up somewhere with a 3.4 GPA with my bachelors degree come september.

However, I am left perplexed about my future, and wondering if I should continue in my current track or perhaps walk the route of a special masters program and take a fresh second crack at showing medical institutions that I am indeed cut out for their rigorous curriculum.

Any professional insights into how much of the anecdotal evidence I've gathered about a pharmacy career lines up with your own personal experience?
Does any one here see any difference in their practice at a hospital or compounding pharmacy? (I've only seen the retail setting so far)

Advice and constructive criticism always appreciated my friends thank you for your time

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[pharmasaurusRex17]

It's been ages SDN, good to see you again. Coming back to these forums in my senior year as a pre-pharm, looking to glean some guidance from the depths of your ever-insightful wells of wisdom and guidance lol (but seriously, I remember some of you being quite articulate and pleasant from my freshman year, so hopefully more of the same in this discussion).

I'm aware many threads like this exist, but of course in typical millennial fashion I think I'm a special snowflake i.e. my situation is a bit unorthodox. If there are better means of resources that address my concerns elsewhere on this forum, I appreciate you kindly redirecting my attention, as it has been some time since I've chatted on here with you guys

Long story short, I am in a conundrum concerning my choice of the pharmacy path.

In the past year or so working as a pharmacy technician at a major retail chain I've grown somewhat jaded in respect to where our American multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry is headed, and consequently where our future careers are being dragged to. In no small part did the wonderful pharmacists, both tenured and experienced as they were, (with visible paper cut scars and carpal tunnel syndrome from the decades pulling 12-ers sorting hardcopies and counting pills lol) influence my swelling discontent. Along with my associates already in grad school (mostly P1's and 2's), and the general consensus of the old-heads here on SDN, there seems to be a culminating maelstrom of "don't do it kid, change your mind while you still can", and sentiments like "schools across the nation are welcoming sub-3.0 students who are willing to trade a signature on the dotted line for a 200k ball and chain into their programs with a smile and a handshake; this market saturation should worry you."

The latter of those attitudes held by professionals in this field has been especially eye-opening for a 23 year old lad like myself. On more than one separate occasion I've had float pharmacists flat out ask me "why not MD?!" Which brings me to my question: Is it ever too late for a prospective doctor to steer the ship in another direction?

Let me shoot some quick facts about myself for all you analytical types and wrap up this novel lol.

-Graduated HS with a 3.5 and a 900 on the SAT, which put me in the top 19% if I remember. English is not my first language, and teachers generally pegged me as quite the introspective and bright bloke with potential.
-Freshman year is when the family conflicts and personal health issues hit, as life tends to do sometimes. Got C's in my gen chem and A&P series, which ensured I was hazardously floating just above a 2.5 in my first year. Last year, tensions in my personal life peaked and I got a C, F, and D in my physics series. This was the major wake up call I needed since I've never failed a course in my life until this point.
-Since then, things have been on a positive upward trend. I aced my organic chemistry and calculus series, got B's throughout biochem, and managed to pull myself up to a 3.1 cGPA and 3.3 science to date. I am planning to retake the physics set this summer, and with the solid grasp I now have with the derivative and integral background, I am confident I will end up somewhere with a 3.4 GPA with my bachelors degree come september.

However, I am left perplexed about my future, and wondering if I should continue in my current track or perhaps walk the route of a special masters program and take a fresh second crack at showing medical institutions that I am indeed cut out for their rigorous curriculum.

Any professional insights into how much of the anecdotal evidence I've gathered about a pharmacy career lines up with your own personal experience?
Does any one here see any difference in their practice at a hospital or compounding pharmacy? (I've only seen the retail setting so far)

Advice and constructive criticism always appreciated my friends thank you for your time

I honestly will say I don't see market saturation at all. It's more how you market yourself, and where you steer yourself to go; especially during school. The networks and professional organizations are a BIG platform for it, as well as talking to different professors and working in some type of pharmacy. There's many career paths to pharmacy; not just the retail route. I was able to get job offers in California and the heart of Boston and so far my class has at least a 90% job offer rate that I know of. Coming from someone who graduated in Boston, the number of opportunities were endless and out there... students just had to take them seriously.

There's things such as: Industry pharmacy (Regulatory affairs, FDA, Small and big pharma companies), Government and military pharmacy which a few of my upperclassmen colleagues have gone into, residency in many specialties from generalized clinical to things focusing solely on cardiac pharmacy, etc.... , academia where you will have a practice site and teaching but you're full time at a university, of course the stereotypical community, but there's also long-term care pharmacy or managed care or hospice, and hospital pharmacy. You also have home infusion or nuclear pharmacy as well.

I hope this sparks some ideas and helps you. Don't get discouraged by the people that say things to you like that and what you see. If you really try, the sky is the limit and it's endless

 

[TheBlaah]

A 900 on the SAT is in top top 19%? I haven't taken it in awhile, but if I remember right, the composite is out of 1600. Seems rather low for the top 19%. Not that it matters at this point.

While it is true there are a wide variety of jobs available, I'd take pharmasaurus' advice with a grain of salt. Keep in mind that ~65% are still in retail and ~25% are in hospital.
The remaining 10% are split between educational services, finance/insurance, research, administrative services, and other miscellaneous jobs. My source is attached.

If you can't stand the thought of retail, then chances are you probably should start rethinking your future. While market saturation is beginning to set in in some of the more metropolitan areas, it's not terrible at the moment. It's hard to say what will happen by the time you would graduate though. If you truly are smart, pragmatic, and make good connections throughout your time in school, finding a decent position shouldn't be too difficult.

As for your chances for med schools, without knowing what your extracurriculars are, I would say your stats are somewhat low. Of course, an amazing score on the MCAT would make you competitive.

 

[Apples2Oranges]

I agree above.

The mentality of being jaded is common across multiple health professions. I worked with doctors and friends in medical school, and eventually they become exhausted and jaded. My fiancé of a year is a 4th yr med student. He once came home to me and said nonchalantly "Two of our obese patient just died...we expected it and they should've too." Most doctors would not choose to pursue medicine again, and recommend students if you are happier doing something else, do that. Yes, you are almost 100% guaranteed a job being a doctor, but you are giving up a decade of your life to doing crap no one wants to do and handling tough hours. It's stressful and very taxing. So if you're smart enough to do plastic surgery, dermatology, radiology, or some specialized surgery, by all means. But I'd be wary to say you should jump into medicine without looking into its conditions and politics right now. It's less stressful being a dentist, PA or NP. And with your GPA, you'd honestly have to think about a gap year or 2...or a post-bac.

I'd suggest you take a year off to really explore your options regardless. If you have already been accepted into pharmacy school, then go cheap if you can. If you haven't applied, I'd take the next few months to really think about what you want. It is indeed time intensive and the loans are hefty. I'd look into other medical professions other than just MD/DO, like AA, NP, or PA.

 

[pms_testosterone]

"in respect to where our American multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry is headed"
Oh, they're fine.

If you enjoy working in retail pharmacy and are willing to move to get a job, then go for it. If not, then don't. (Hospital jobs are markedly different, but don't count on getting one.)

 

[dr.dbz]

I honestly will say I don't see market saturation at all. It's more how you market yourself, and where you steer yourself to go; especially during school. The networks and professional organizations are a BIG platform for it, as well as talking to different professors and working in some type of pharmacy. There's many career paths to pharmacy; not just the retail route. I was able to get job offers in California and the heart of Boston and so far my class has at least a 90% job offer rate that I know of. Coming from someone who graduated in Boston, the number of opportunities were endless and out there... students just had to take them seriously.

There's things such as: Industry pharmacy (Regulatory affairs, FDA, Small and big pharma companies), Government and military pharmacy which a few of my upperclassmen colleagues have gone into, residency in many specialties from generalized clinical to things focusing solely on cardiac pharmacy, etc.... , academia where you will have a practice site and teaching but you're full time at a university, of course the stereotypical community, but there's also long-term care pharmacy or managed care or hospice, and hospital pharmacy. You also have home infusion or nuclear pharmacy as well.

I hope this sparks some ideas and helps you. Don't get discouraged by the people that say things to you like that and what you see. If you really try, the sky is the limit and it's endless

Thanks for the reply and perspective pharmasaurus. I see you're geared up towards PGY-1 next year. Care to shed any light on how that application process works? I've been looking going down that path if I do end up choosing the pharmD journey, but the accounts I've heard have varied wildly. Some pharmacists tell me they sit on their ass at the computer in the hospital basement all day, while others make rounds upstairs. Would you say that's more due to the way your steer your career with the networking skills and connections you mentioned earlier?

 

[rcodyfb16]

I'd recommend trying to do some shadowing at either an amcare or hospital site. I was in a similar situation during undergrad and essentially decided I didn't want anything to do with the profession after 3 years of Walgreen's. Took a break, got a job in a hospital, and it completely changed my perspective.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I would consider other professions as well. Software engineering, for example, has a high job satisfaction rate, high demand, and a high salary for a relatively low student loan burden and short period of schooling.

 

[dr.dbz]

A 900 on the SAT is in top top 19%? I haven't taken it in awhile, but if I remember right, the composite is out of 1600. Seems rather low for the top 19%. Not that it matters at this point.

While it is true there are a wide variety of jobs available, I'd take pharmasaurus' advice with a grain of salt. Keep in mind that ~65% are still in retail and ~25% are in hospital.
The remaining 10% are split between educational services, finance/insurance, research, administrative services, and other miscellaneous jobs. My source is attached.

If you can't stand the thought of retail, then chances are you probably should start rethinking your future. While market saturation is beginning to set in in some of the more metropolitan areas, it's not terrible at the moment. It's hard to say what will happen by the time you would graduate though. If you truly are smart, pragmatic, and make good connections throughout your time in school, finding a decent position shouldn't be too difficult.

As for your chances for med schools, without knowing what your extracurriculars are, I would say your stats are somewhat low. Of course, an amazing score on the MCAT would make you competitive.

haha that was a typo, I meant 1900/2400 back when they still scored it that way

And you're totally right about where the jobs are, that gap from what I've gathered is actually widening with 85% of pharmDs landing retail gigs now. I think pharmasaurus' argument along the lines of marketing yourself and standing out in some way is more relevant than ever if you want to get nuked or practice in clinical/hospital settings. Makes me wonder what the split will look like in the near future with automation in the fold and Amazon looking to make a foray into the industry.

 

[Apples2Oranges]

Effects of Amazon may not make a huge impact of pharmacy as you expect. I'm not really sure what can happen but I suggest reading: Amazon Faces Tough Fight Against Walgreens And CVS If It Enters Pharmacy Business
Wal-color and Big Red Trio is pretty hard to beat.

And pharmaceutical companies? They've always been like that. They make bank and you can't stop it no matter where you are in health care. Not just pharmacy. In pharmacy, you worry about regulations and policies of the place at where you work.

 

[dr.dbz]

I would consider other professions as well. Software engineering, for example, has a high job satisfaction rate, high demand, and a high salary for a relatively low student loan burden and short period of schooling.

Hey stochio, I was wondering when you'd finally make an appearance I've been reading your commentary on a couple other threads..

Funny you mention that, I've been exploring the engineering/computer science fields recently after doing well in my mathematics and have taken some intro to programming classes, played around with languages and coding in my spare time etc. Although, I just can't fathom getting another bachelor's in an unrelated field to my current one. In your opinion is it possible to blend skills in an interdisciplinary approach and work on informatics on the side? I think I would thoroughly enjoy getting in on the new bioinformatics wave of our era with the pharmacology background, but not quite sure how to go about that or if such a niche even exists in our field?

 

[croquemonsieur]

Grating to read and I didn't read past 900 SAT. Do something else.

 

[dr.dbz]

Grating to read and I didn't read past 900 SAT. Do something else.

My apologies sir English is my 3rd language. Any suggestions to improve my prose is always appreciated

 

[PharmtoCS]

Hey stochio, I was wondering when you'd finally make an appearance I've been reading your commentary on a couple other threads..

Funny you mention that, I've been exploring the engineering/computer science fields recently after doing well in my mathematics and have taken some intro to programming classes, played around with languages and coding in my spare time etc. Although, I just can't fathom getting another bachelor's in an unrelated field to my current one. In your opinion is it possible to blend skills in an interdisciplinary approach and work on informatics on the side? I think I would thoroughly enjoy getting in on the new bioinformatics wave of our era with the pharmacology background, but not quite sure how to go about that or if such a niche even exists in our field?

I would look at your current degree as a sunk cost. Sure you can build on it, but overall your prospects are limited if you majored in biology or the like. You would have to consider whether it is more worth it to take out $10-30k loans for an additional degree in computer science or a coding bootcamp, or $200k+ loans for pharmacy.

Sent from my SM-N910V using SDN mobile

 

[Zelda840]

Are people really taking out 200k in loans? The school that accepted me will be $125,000 and I still can't quite pull the trigger on it because it just seems so insanely expensive.

 

[Apples2Oranges]

Are people really taking out 200k in loans? The school that accepted me will be $125,000 and I still can't quite pull the trigger on it because it just seems so insanely expensive.

Most schools are $200k considering COA, like tuition, board, food, traveling etc. If you have a guaranteed job/connections after graduation, live close to home, or have some aid from family then that should reduce the cost. I'm taking at most $30k per yr with $23k in tuition. And my loan for the year is interest free. If you have to take out everything on your own and incur interest, pharmacy is not for you rn.

 

[Seriously Serious]

I was in a similar position as you before I started pharmacy school. You really need to simplify your thought process and determine what your main objective is, meaning, where do you want to end up in life? Are you someone looking to live a comfortable life with a family? Are you someone who cares more about prestige and respect? etc. Ideally, I think we want all of those things. Anybody in the healthcare field would be lying to you if they said they did not think about becoming a physician at one point. However, it is not an ideal lifestyle for most of us. Pharmacy offers a large spectrum of opportunities other than retail, so you will most likely find a particular niche in the field that excites you and it usually pays well. I will say that somebody who graduated undergrad with me is one of those Special Masters Programs to make themselves more competitive, and they are adding to their debt before even entering medical school (assuming they get in somewhere). Meanwhile, I am already half-way through my pharmacy program. I will graduate and make a great salary before they even begin their long journey of medical school + specialty training. Anyway, to answer your question is it ever too late to switch? Never. Some go to med school after pharmacy school. If you are just someone who is always ~flirting~ with the idea of medical school, it probably isn't for you, at least not now.

P.S. Don't be one of those people who put their High School performance on their resume/CV lol

 

[Zelda840]

And my loan for the year is interest free.

Oooh - how'd you swing that?!?

 

[Apples2Oranges]

Oooh - how'd you swing that?!?

It's a loan I take out from the school, not the gov't. It builds interest after I graduate, but it does not accumulate while I'm a student.

 

[Zelda840]

That's amazing. I don't think a lot of people really understand compounding interest. That's quite a gift!

 

[pharmasaurusRex17]

Thanks for the reply and perspective pharmasaurus. I see you're geared up towards PGY-1 next year. Care to shed any light on how that application process works? I've been looking going down that path if I do end up choosing the pharmD journey, but the accounts I've heard have varied wildly. Some pharmacists tell me they sit on their ass at the computer in the hospital basement all day, while others make rounds upstairs. Would you say that's more due to the way your steer your career with the networking skills and connections you mentioned earlier?

The application process is through the national matching system that MD/DO students do go through as well; it's just less known for pharmacy. Actually, my parents had no idea what it was until I started applying and flying all over the US in the hopes of matching with one because I really enjoy teaching, research, and clinical pharmacy. If you google "ASHP Pharmacy Residency Directory", it has majority of the programs that are offered all over the states. The biggest and most important thing you would do is research. What are you looking for in a program? Are you looking for a teaching certificate? Are you looking for a prestigious hospital in a big city? Or do you like community teaching hospitals more? What about the number of residents? Do you want preceptors who are always there with you? Or do you prefer to work independently? Basically, there's all these questions and most people go to this thing called Midyear which is an annual pharmacy conference. Most students in their final year who are interested in this route go to midyear in order to talk to people from the different programs in order to get their research and questions answered.

Of course, this is just a snippet of it. It's exactly like a college application, only it's more involved. From the letter to intent to the reference letters to the academic transcript... then they choose who to give an interview to. These interviews depending on the program last anywhere from 4 hours to 6 or 8 hours.

Each program is different. Some pharmacists sit on their behind at the computer in the basement all day (These programs have a heavy emphasis on staffing) while others will be rounding with the medical team and doing other stuff like mine or some of my colleagues. It's more so how much research you do and the time you put in to asking questions and really exploring your options. Networking skills and connections is big, but it's only a part of the equation. I apologize also, do take my advice with a grain of salt since in life anything can happen literally. I honestly have no idea what the pharmacy market will become. I do know the more west you go (generally), pharmacists have more responsibilities and some can do more than others. I'm from California, pharmacy is extremely progressive and they have just as much power as the physician sometimes. But, I did my schooling in the northeast where medicine and physicians hold the fort. This means, pharmacy here is a little less progressive and they're not as powerful though. I'm headed to Washington... where apparently it is the first state that allowed pharmacists to prescribe according to their law book.

... My little brother is a 2nd year med student in an accelerated 7 year program also, so I know both sides of the equation. Honestly, I have contemplated going back to MD/DO school, but all in all, I'm proud of the pharmacy profession and I really do advocate for people to strive their hearts to the highest. I also do want a family in the future ... depending on what happens and the hours as a clinical pharmacist/in pharmacy are much better than the hours of the physician.

 

[pharmasaurusRex17]

I'd recommend trying to do some shadowing at either an amcare or hospital site. I was in a similar situation during undergrad and essentially decided I didn't want anything to do with the profession after 3 years of Walgreen's. Took a break, got a job in a hospital, and it completely changed my perspective.

Also I agree with this LOL. Shadow a clinical pharmacist if you can!

 

[BidingMyTime]

1st, nobody cares what your SAT is after you are in college. SAT is an imperfect predictor of how well you will do in college, it helps colleges determine if they should waste their time on you are not. Once you are in college, all that matters is your college performance.

2nd, unless you have quite the extenuating circumstance (ie you accidentally discovered a cure for cancer in your gen chem lab), then you will not be getting into a MD school with that GPA. It's extremely unlikely that a special master's program will change that. You could potentially get into a DO school with that GPA, assuming you do well on your MCAT (so getting a special master's would most likely be a huge investment that wouldn't change your application much.) If you are serious about becoming a doctor, then start looking into the requirements of DO schools (and start studying for your MCAT.)

3rd, the majority of pharmacists end up working retail. So do NOT go into pharmacy unless you are willing to work retail. Yes, you can end up working hospital, clinical, or some other known field, but statistically you will be working retail. So if you aren't willing to work retail, then pharmacy is not a good career option.

 

[Lnsean]

It's been ages SDN, good to see you again. Coming back to these forums in my senior year as a pre-pharm, looking to glean some guidance from the depths of your ever-insightful wells of wisdom and guidance lol (but seriously, I remember some of you being quite articulate and pleasant from my freshman year, so hopefully more of the same in this discussion).

I'm aware many threads like this exist, but of course in typical millennial fashion I think I'm a special snowflake i.e. my situation is a bit unorthodox. If there are better means of resources that address my concerns elsewhere on this forum, I appreciate you kindly redirecting my attention, as it has been some time since I've chatted on here with you guys

Long story short, I am in a conundrum concerning my choice of the pharmacy path.

In the past year or so working as a pharmacy technician at a major retail chain I've grown somewhat jaded in respect to where our American multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry is headed, and consequently where our future careers are being dragged to. In no small part did the wonderful pharmacists, both tenured and experienced as they were, (with visible paper cut scars and carpal tunnel syndrome from the decades pulling 12-ers sorting hardcopies and counting pills lol) influence my swelling discontent. Along with my associates already in grad school (mostly P1's and 2's), and the general consensus of the old-heads here on SDN, there seems to be a culminating maelstrom of "don't do it kid, change your mind while you still can", and sentiments like "schools across the nation are welcoming sub-3.0 students who are willing to trade a signature on the dotted line for a 200k ball and chain into their programs with a smile and a handshake; this market saturation should worry you."

The latter of those attitudes held by professionals in this field has been especially eye-opening for a 23 year old lad like myself. On more than one separate occasion I've had float pharmacists flat out ask me "why not MD?!" Which brings me to my question: Is it ever too late for a prospective doctor to steer the ship in another direction?

Let me shoot some quick facts about myself for all you analytical types and wrap up this novel lol.

-Graduated HS with a 3.5 and a 1900 on the SAT, which put me in the top 19% if I remember. English is not my first language, and teachers generally pegged me as quite the introspective and bright bloke with potential.
-Freshman year is when the family conflicts and personal health issues hit, as life tends to do sometimes. Got C's in my gen chem and A&P series, which ensured I was hazardously floating just above a 2.5 in my first year. Last year, tensions in my personal life peaked and I got a C, F, and D in my physics series. This was the major wake up call I needed since I've never failed a course in my life until this point.
-Since then, things have been on a positive upward trend. I aced my organic chemistry and calculus series, got B's throughout biochem, and managed to pull myself up to a 3.1 cGPA and 3.3 science to date. I am planning to retake the physics set this summer, and with the solid grasp I now have with the derivative and integral background, I am confident I will end up somewhere with a 3.4 GPA with my bachelors degree come september.

However, I am left perplexed about my future, and wondering if I should continue in my current track or perhaps walk the route of a special masters program and take a fresh second crack at showing medical institutions that I am indeed cut out for their rigorous curriculum.

Any professional insights into how much of the anecdotal evidence I've gathered about a pharmacy career lines up with your own personal experience?
Does any one here see any difference in their practice at a hospital or compounding pharmacy? (I've only seen the retail setting so far)

Advice and constructive criticism always appreciated my friends thank you for your time

You're out of college...don't mention your HS grades or SAT scores. Your college grades will get you screened out at most MD programs...I'd consider DO if you do well on your MCATs. I think even with that GPA...you'd be screened out at most of the established PharmD programs in the nation. Get all your eggs in order then apply. Frankly, I'd look into becoming an NP or PA.