shooting in Tulsa

[tmvguy03]

The details have not come out-- but the minute I hear of a shooting at a "medical facility" its opioid related until proven otherwise. We'll see. What security measures do you all have in place?

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[Agast]

Facebook chatter says it’s a spine surgeon and sports medicine doctor (Preston Phillips and Stephanie Husen) from the orthopedic clinic. In addition to two of their staff.

 

[tmvguy03]

Facebook chatter says it’s a spine surgeon and sports medicine doctor (Preston Phillips and Stephanie Husen) from the orthopedic clinic. In addition to two of their staff.

Wow--sadly is more evidence of my initial concern....No one shoots up a sports med clinic for not getting a USGI...

 

[SSdoc33]

The details have not come out-- but the minute I hear of a shooting at a "medical facility" its opioid related until proven otherwise. We'll see. What security measures do you all have in place?

no opioids

thats my security measure

 

[au bon pain]

Immediately have this thought too re: shootings and opioids. FWIW their pain clinic is in a different building than where this shooting took place. This **** is tragic.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

When I was at Hopkins, a spine surgeon was shot in the stomach. Then a few years after I left the harvard program another surgeon was shot and killed. Both times, the sons were upset about the outcome for their mothers. No opioids involved.

 

[geauxg8rs]

I want a referral for PT or I am going to shoot up your clinic!

 

[kstarm]

Looks like it was about back pain after surgery and not getting assistance afterwards. Purchased an assault rifle the day of the shooting and a hand gun 3 days prior. I'm sure there will be more to come.

Enraged Patient Bought Gun 3 Hours Before Tulsa Hospital Massacre

Michael Louis, 45, killed four people and himself after complaining repeatedly about back pain following surgery, Tulsa police said.

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[GoBeers]

terrible tragedy
and you can see it coming... wave of patients from surgeon offices across the country to handle post-surgical pain to "pain management." Just like PCPs blatantly lie and tell patients " i'm not allowed to prescribe opioids. you have to get it from pain mgmt."

 

[myrandom2003]

I am with you all. the second I saw this, I presumed opioids related.

The guy asked for "assistance" after the surgery. That usually means pain is bad and wanted meds.
The other doc shot was an IM/Sports person right? That doc was possibly the pre-postop med manage.

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[GoBeers]

I am with you all. the second I saw this, I presumed opioids related.

The guy asked for "assistance" after the surgery. That usually means pain is bad and wanted meds.
The other doc shot was an IM/Sports person right? That doc was possibly the pre-postop med manage.

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the question is... were they being totally negligent and ignoring him or were they treating him within "reason" but patient had unrealistic expectations...

 

[sloh]

the question is... were they being totally negligent and ignoring him or were they treating him within "reason" but patient had unrealistic expectations...

Most likely the latter.

 

[myrandom2003]

the question is... were they being totally negligent and ignoring him or were they treating him within "reason" but patient had unrealistic expectations...

If the guy bought a gun that day to shoot them up, likely unrealistic expectations regardless of what they did.

 

[MitchLevi]

Guy was unhinged and impulsive. Don't offer him surgery. I refuse to believe there weren't pre-existing red flags.

Terrible story.

 

[Agast]

If the guy bought a gun that day to shoot them up, likely unrealistic expectations regardless of what they did.

When my patients are in extreme pain, they are not well enough to go out browsing the gun section. He wasn’t even on a walker or cane.

 

[NJPAIN]

Yikes!! I agree that it will result in even more unreasonable referrals to "pain management" for post-op pain management. Perhaps firearms training and self-defense should be part of fellowship.

 

[DrMDAware]

Yikes!! I agree that it will result in even more unreasonable referrals to "pain management" for post-op pain management. Perhaps firearms training and self-defense should be part of fellowship.

Minimally invasive self defense

 

[BobBarker]

The shooter’s wife was a family med doc who worked for St Francis also.

 

[MitchLevi]

The shooter’s wife was a family med doc who worked for St Francis also.

Dude...WTHeck.

Was this far from you?

 

[BobBarker]

Yes, I’m OKC based. There is very little overlap between the two medical communities.

 

[Iamnew2]

I want a referral for PT or I am going to shoot up your clinic!

said no one ever! I guess the patient entitlement is something that i am very against precisely because of the nonsense above. patients think that we are like burger king - they must get what they want or else... either they become aggressive, berate, threaten, or in tragic circumstances they kill their physician. how incredibly tragic and sad and a telling sign of our times.

 

[bedrock]

The shooter’s wife was a family med doc who worked for St Francis also.

Wow. That is nuts.

You would think his MD wife would have helped to calm him down, even written him some prednisone or something if he was in that much pain.

 

[SSdoc33]

does this happen in the USA b/c americans are entitled or because you can get a gun as easy as a lollipop?

you don't hear about this anywhere else.

my guess is both

 

[Ducttape]

entitled - yes

social norms enforce immediate gratification through pills - yes

easy access to guns - yes

 

[Iamnew2]

does this happen in the USA b/c americans are entitled or because you can get a gun as easy as a lollipop?

you don't hear about this anywhere else.

my guess is both

Plenty of people own guns that are not entitled and have an understanding that not everything is your way and therefore don't shoot up the place. People who feel that they must always get their way typically do this type of thing. It's no different than I'll sue you if you don't (fill in the blank) mentality.

 

[SSdoc33]

Plenty of people own guns that are not entitled and have an understanding that not everything is your way and therefore don't shoot up the place. People who feel that they must always get their way typically do this type of thing. It's no different than I'll sue you if you don't (fill in the blank) mentality.

i didnt know that lawsuits tear flesh and puncture organs....

 

[Iamnew2]

i didnt know that lawsuits tear flesh and puncture organs....

They don't, but they do destroy lives. The correlation was the mentality though.

 

[lobelsteve]

does this happen in the USA b/c americans are entitled or because you can get a gun as easy as a lollipop?

you don't hear about this anywhere else.

my guess is both

Where do you get your lollipops?

McCaysville Drug & Gun

Pharmacy & Firearms Dealer. Located in McCaysville, Georgia

mccaysvilledrugcenter.com

 

[clubdeac]

does this happen in the USA b/c americans are entitled or because you can get a gun as easy as a lollipop?

you don't hear about this anywhere else.

my guess is both

“You don’t hear about this anywhere else”? You’re saying only mass shootings occur in the US or occur at a disproportionate rate? Again parroting MSNBC talking points or do you have data you’d like to share?

 

[hyperalgesia]

does this happen in the USA b/c americans are entitled or because you can get a gun as easy as a lollipop?

you don't hear about this anywhere else.

my guess is both

I think entitlement, pure and simple. Like incels. I don't get what I want so I throw a tantrum because it's not fair.

I'm not willing to change society and freedoms for these people. I accept the risk.

We need to not get hysterical every time we have one of these. There are crazy, entitled would-be killers on every city block who could be triggered to violence.

Serious question: Is there a particular set of laws that you think would have prevented this? I think we could have eliminated the AR-15, limited clip size in handguns, had a red flag law and a waiting period, raised the minimum age, prevented gun shows and abolished the NRA.

Still would have happened. Still would get hysterical.

 

[SSdoc33]

“You don’t hear about this anywhere else”? You’re saying only mass shootings occur in the US or occur at a disproportionate rate? Again parroting MSNBC talking points or do you have data you’d like to share?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01924036.2022.2052126

btw, do you still have your mom do your homework for you?

 

[SSdoc33]

I think entitlement, pure and simple. Like incels. I don't get what I want so I throw a tantrum because it's not fair.

I'm not willing to change society and freedoms for these people. I accept the risk.

We need to not get hysterical every time we have one of these. There are crazy, entitled would-be killers on every city block who could be triggered to violence.

Serious question: Is there a particular set of laws that you think would have prevented this? I think we could have eliminated the AR-15, limited clip size in handguns, had a red flag law and a waiting period, raised the minimum age, prevented gun shows and abolished the NRA.

Still would have happened. Still would get hysterical.

no law will eliminate all mass shootings. but the will decrease the frequency and severity of them.

your above ideas would likely have prevented uvalde and tulsa and would have decreased the severity of buffalo.

 

[callmeanesthesia]

I think entitlement, pure and simple. Like incels. I don't get what I want so I throw a tantrum because it's not fair.

I'm not willing to change society and freedoms for these people. I accept the risk.

We need to not get hysterical every time we have one of these. There are crazy, entitled would-be killers on every city block who could be triggered to violence.

Serious question: Is there a particular set of laws that you think would have prevented this? I think we could have eliminated the AR-15, limited clip size in handguns, had a red flag law and a waiting period, raised the minimum age, prevented gun shows and abolished the NRA.

Still would have happened. Still would get hysterical.

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

UVALDE, TX—In the hours following a violent rampage in Texas in which a lone attacker killed at least 21 individuals and injured several others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the...

www.theonion.com

 

[Ducttape]

do you know...

that Zelensky has stated that 50-100 ukrainians are dying per day as a result of a war.
and that 111 Americans are dying per day due to gun violence.

yes, the US is 7 times larger than Ukraine, but it should be concerning that similar numbers of people are dying and we are not at war technically.

---
so compare the US to, say, the EU (329 million people vs 441 million people)
we had 45,000 firearm related deaths in 2020. (a significant portion were suicides)
the EU, which has roughly 79.8 million firearms, had 6700 deaths.

https://vlaamsvredesinstituut.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/factsheet_firearms_and_deaths_in_eu.pdf

---
of note, overall, the US is #2 worldwide in gun related deaths. #1 is Brazil.
ie only one other country has more gun deaths.

 

[Ducttape]

but wait, you say, its the rate that matters...

look at this graphic from wikipedia:

 

[SeniorWrangler]

So, is there any reform you would support, or is everything pointless?

 

[Ferrismonk]

I've traveled outside the US to other "developed" countries. By and large they're perfectly fine with a government camera on every street, guards with fully automatic machine guns outside government buildings, living in overpriced small flats and $10/gallon gasoline. They're perfectly fine with the government owning all the churches and telling you what you're allowed to make and how many hours you're allowed to work.

American's are different. We don't like people telling us what to do. Unfortunately this has morphed over time from a responsible citizenry into a selfish, jealous, and petty populace. Add in bullying. drugs, broken homes, and out of control social media to underdeveloped teenage brains and you get things like mass shootings. I am 100% confident that if every gun was removed from the US, we'd have similar amounts of violence and people indiscriminately killed, they'd just use other means.

 

[hyperalgesia]

So, is there any reform you would support, or is everything pointless?

We need to move away from "progressive" centralized control, state parenting, state education, state healthcare. I believe this has a lot to do with people going off the rails. If we continue in this direction, the next step will be controlling the media, removing anything that could be used as a weapon, etc.

To me, reform means getting back to our roots with a culture of 2 parent homes, local values, local education, local healthcare, fee for service, etc.

 

[callmeanesthesia]

We need to move away from "progressive" centralized control, state parenting, state education, state healthcare. I believe this has a lot to do with people going off the rails. If we continue in this direction, the next step will be controlling the media, removing anything that could be used as a weapon, etc.

To me, reform means getting back to our roots with a culture of 2 parent homes, local values, local education, local healthcare, fee for service, etc.

Except that countries with more centralized control and state healthcare don’t have these mass shooting problems so this is based on what exactly? You are just so sure it should be true?

 

[hyperalgesia]

Except that countries with more centralized control and state healthcare don’t have these mass shooting problems so this is based on what exactly? You are just so sure it should be true?

I think American culture is generally more violent than some in Europe. We have a lot of drug and gang-related violence, which seem to be included in "mass shootings" these days.

The laws of a society, including gun laws, reflect its culture, they don't shape it. That's just my opinion.

 

[cbest]

The American delusion of mass shootings with AR-15s being attributed to mental health, not having enough good guys with guns to counteract the bad guys with guns, blah, blah, blah… it’s so asinine. As an outsider having lived in the US for 15 years, I’m somehow continually surprised time and again that so many people are able to talk themselves into thinking it’s not just that there’s so many damn guns and they’re so easy to obtain… that’s the crux of the matter. Every other first world western nation knows it and either laughs at American self-righteousness and stupidity or shakes their heads in disbelief that a country that constantly proclaims it’s so great does nothing to protect its most precious citizens. But hey, the horse is outta the barn. No sense in even trying now, right?! Pitiful!

 

[Ducttape]

So, is there any reform you would support, or is everything pointless?

everything is pointless because gun rights congre$$people have ve$ted intere$t in maintaining $tatu$ quo.


but....
1. assault rifle bans to those under 22. the mental stability is just not there - particularly for males - until after age 21.
2. limitation on amount of ammunition that can be bought by those under 22.
3. very strict punishment for anyone found skirting the law - ie buying assault weapons for someone under 22. mandatory jail time.
4. background checks on everyone, including at auctions
5. a cooling off period for purchase of assault weapons of 1 week, especially to get time to do background checks
6. limit gun capacity, probably 10 rounds. i know lobel can arm and reload super fast, but most of these killers cannot because they dont do the training.

good guys with guns are not the key. arming teachers while telling them not to teach about racism is ludicrous.

the best policy is to make sure that bad guys dont get guns.

I think American culture is generally more violent than some in Europe. We have a lot of drug and gang-related violence, which seem to be included in "mass shootings" these days.

The laws of a society, including gun laws, reflect its culture, they don't shape it. That's just my opinion.

there is a lot of crime in European countries. the reason it is so bloody in the US is because of guns.

the rate of serious assault in the US in 2018 was 248. homicide rate 5.

France in 2018 serious assault 375. homicide 1.2
Germany serious assault 164. homicide 0.95
Australia serious assault 292. homicide rate 0.89
Canada serious assault 150. homicide rate 1.76. thank you message 148.

we compare "favorably" with 2nd world countries like
Brazil serious assault 274 and homicide 27.4
Argentina serious assault 306 homicide 5

take a guess as to which countries have gun laws and which do not...

 

[BobBarker]

Auctions have background checks. Online or professional in person.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

arming teachers while telling them not to teach about racism is ludicrous.

Who doesn't want racism taught? Are you referring to the issue with CRT? I don't think most people are against racism being taught. I think what they (me included) are concerned with is singling out one group of people and pointing out all the bad points and wrongs in history while ignoring the good ones.

For some reason, I don't think CRT is going to take the angle that slavery has been around forever and probably everyone, and I mean everyone (that includes Asians, Africans, Arabs, Europeans, etc) was involved and while the west didn't start slavery, it sure did end it. It'll probably lean more to something along the lines of how bad American culture is and how this awful system set up by white people is responsible for all of the ills and problems in your life and the world.

Sorry man but it's hard enough for a kid these days to be confident and to have strong self-esteem. I'm not going to let the schools try to guilt my kids into something they had nothing to do with. Why would I pay for someone to do that to them?

 

[mid|ine]

AUSTRALIA

 

[Ducttape]

Auctions have background checks. Online or professional in person.

unless you are a private seller at the auction.
background checks are not required for unlicensed gun sellers especially at gun shows.

from Houston Tx for example:

http://www.houstontx.gov/againstgunviolence/public/documents/86th-Session-Background-Checks-at-Gun-Shows.pdf

The background check loophole, aka “gun show loophole,” refers to the scenario that, barring any additional requirements, prohibited purchasers (including violent offenders) are able to avoid background checks at gun shows by purchasing guns from unlicensed sellers and private individuals. “Private individuals” is a loose term under the Firearm Owners Protection Act that includes any private seller who does not rely on gun sales as the primary means of income.
➢ Pursuant to the Brady Act, if a vendor is a federally licensed firearms dealer (FFL), they are required to perform a background check prior to completing the sale of the firearm. o However, unlicensed sellers (vendors and private individuals) are also permitted to sell firearms at gun shows. As an unlicensed seller, that individual or vendor is not required to keep records of sales, and is not required to perform background checks. Thus, an individual who would be prohibited from purchasing a gun under federal law, such as a felon or domestic abuser, is be able to purchase a gun through an individual or unlicensed vendor.

It is estimated that 25-50% of gun show sales are from unlicensed or private individual sellers. The guns used in the Columbine High School, 101 California Street, and 2010 Pentagon shooting were all purchased at gun shows through this loophole.
Presently, a private seller can rent table space and carry a “private sale,” or other sign that indicates to purchasers that no paperwork, background check, or recordkeeping are required.

 

[hyperalgesia]

everything is pointless because gun rights congre$$people have ve$ted intere$t in maintaining $tatu$ quo.


but....
1. assault rifle bans to those under 22. the mental stability is just not there - particularly for males - until after age 21.
2. limitation on amount of ammunition that can be bought by those under 22.
3. very strict punishment for anyone found skirting the law - ie buying assault weapons for someone under 22. mandatory jail time.
4. background checks on everyone, including at auctions
5. a cooling off period for purchase of assault weapons of 1 week, especially to get time to do background checks
6. limit gun capacity, probably 10 rounds. i know lobel can arm and reload super fast, but most of these killers cannot because they dont do the training.

good guys with guns are not the key. arming teachers while telling them not to teach about racism is ludicrous.

the best policy is to make sure that bad guys dont get guns.


there is a lot of crime in European countries. the reason it is so bloody in the US is because of guns.

the rate of serious assault in the US in 2018 was 248. homicide rate 5.

France in 2018 serious assault 375. homicide 1.2
Germany serious assault 164. homicide 0.95
Australia serious assault 292. homicide rate 0.89
Canada serious assault 150. homicide rate 1.76. thank you message 148.

we compare "favorably" with 2nd world countries like
Brazil serious assault 274 and homicide 27.4
Argentina serious assault 306 homicide 5

take a guess as to which countries have gun laws and which do not...

I don't dispute what you're saying.

Repealing the second amendment and confiscating ALL private guns and ammo would greatly decrease gun deaths. Do you agree?

 

[Ducttape]

the federal government is not going to go out and seize your guns.

im not taking the bait. sorry.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

the federal government is not going to go out and seize your guns.

im not taking the bait. sorry.

Why not? It's fun discussing things with you.

 

[Disciple]

but wait, you say, its the rate that matters...

look at this graphic from wikipedia:

View attachment 355969

Update to your data:

Opinion | More Legal Guns Reduced Crime in Brazil

Homicide fell 34% after Bolsonaro made firearms permits easier and cheaper.

www.wsj.com