Should I choose to go to allopathic or osteopathic medical school?

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Location is one of the bigger factors as you mentioned. It's probably one of the few reasons people would choose to go DO over MD if it was that close to your home. But anything else, and it's just that, a backup. And since it seems you've just taken a psychology class , you should know what self-justification is and that it's something these types of threads are filled with.




If this is what makes you feel better about your decision, so be it brotha. Good luck to you.

Hmm true enough. Most people on here are here to receive some positive feed back or to reinforce their beliefs. Well all I can say is, they're both medical schools.

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[JaggerPlate]

I have merely stated a fact.

God, you guys are cracking me up with this "fact" thing ...

What fact are you talking about?

If you are accepted to both, MD for the many reasons mentioned above. DO is a good backup though.

Can you pull the fact out of that statement for me??? What you're doing has nothing to do with fact ... it has to do with regurgitated BS on SDN. That's my whole point ...

My point exactly. JaggerPlate, you have to realize that you are an exception, not the rule.

Really? I'm the exception? What about schools like UMDNJ, Western, CCOM, DMU, etc, where the AVERAGE matriculation data is 3.6+/28-29??? That doesn't seem to make me any type of an exception. Furthermore, I never once claimed to only apply to DO schools or that you have to love "osteopathy" to go there ... I advocated applying wherever and making your decision based on a series of logical factors (location, fit, cost, etc).

You guys keep rehashing unfounded, tired arguments and then act like I'm trying to make some crazy stance.

 

[thejetplane]

Jagger-

One of the best doctors I know is a D.O., and I would never even dream of questioning the validity of his education, as he went through a reputable program and is now a fantastic doctor.

That being said, if one's goal in medical school is to have the best shot at getting a residency of their choice (given they are undecided and may or may not opt for a competitive residency), I have heard that an M.D. degree generally makes it at the very least marginally easier to land one's choice residency. Not that D.O.'s can't get into good residencies, just that it is tougher.

Is there truth to this statement? Please briefly educate me (us).

 

[Poliscidoc]

DO= doctor
MD= doctor

Is there some big secret I'm missing here. You idiots that are arguing with Jagger make no sense.

Nike V. Adidas would be a better argument

 

[JaggerPlate]

Jagger-

One of the best doctors I know is a D.O., and I would never even dream of questioning the validity of his education, as he went through a reputable program and is now a fantastic doctor.

That being said, if one's goal in medical school is to have the best shot at getting a residency of their choice (given they are undecided and may or may not opt for a competitive residency), I have heard that an M.D. degree generally makes it at the very least marginally easier to land one's choice residency. Not that D.O.'s can't get into good residencies, just that it is tougher.

Is there truth to this statement? Please briefly educate us or point us in the right direction.

For ACGME?? Yes. However, in my personal opinion ... it's not that cut and dry. I covered it in my initial (longer) response on the first page.

 

[amine2086]

God, you guys are cracking me up with this "fact" thing ...

What fact are you talking about?

If you are accepted to both, MD for the many reasons mentioned above. DO is a good backup though.

Can you pull the fact out of that statement for me??? What you're doing has nothing to do with fact ... it has to do with regurgitated BS on SDN. That's my whole point ...

The fact is many students that apply to DO schools do so as a backup. I hope I do not have to spell it out for you any further.

Really? I'm the exception? What about schools like UMDNJ, Western, CCOM, DMU, etc, where the AVERAGE matriculation data is 3.6+/28-29???

You only listed MCAT/GPA for the top DO schools and as you can see the averages at top DO schools is below average of many state MD schools. Also remember if you repeat a class because you failed it initially, DO schools only consider your latest grade. Stop comparing apple to oranges.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The fact is many students that apply to DO schools do so as a backup. I hope I do not have to spell it out for you any further.

Ummm please do??? I'd love to see that data that conclusively states:

"many students apply DO as a backup"

TO me ... that sounds more like conjecture based off internet forums.

You only listed MCAT/GPA for the top DO schools and as you can see the averages at top DO schools is below average of many state MD schools. Also remember if you repeat a class because you failed it initially, DO schools only consider your latest grade. Stop comparing apple to oranges.

Apples to oranges??? I'm comparing med schools to med schools?? Who said they are the top schools? Furthermore, my point was that my stats are not crazy for DO, neither is the idea that someone would chose a DO school over an MD school because of location, not moving a family, cost, fit, alumni connections, etc, etc.

Again, I'm not trying to say anything crazy here ... I'm simply stating that a LOT of what you're saying (and basing your thesis on) are simply SDN rumors and baseless opinions ... not facts. Also, a lot of these misconceptions are really, really not true.

 

[Espadaleader]

This is the Allopathic/Pre-Med forum. 'Nuff said. This argument is lame. Why would I go to a D.O. school? They work just as hard, take two boards, have an extra component to their medical education, fight for matches and don't receive half the respect M.D.s do. One of the biggest draws of medicine is the respect. Its absolute. Could you imagine finishing medical school, a hard residency, and a tough board examination to have the general public say "what's a D.O?" Its not fair that D.O.s don't get the public's respect as M.D.s do but its life.

 

[morning]

 

[Poliscidoc]

California?

 

[Mute98]

to be honest I wish DO schools were in areas that appealed more to me personally

 

[JaggerPlate]

One of the biggest draws of medicine is the respect.

Hahaha. Man, I think you guys are starting to screw with me on purpose now. Dude, seriously ... have you ever seen the rates at which doctors are sued, and how easily it occurs? Have you ever been in an ER when a patient screams at a doc, calls them incompetent, and thinks they know better because webMD said it was cancer, not a sinus infection? Have you ever read the threads on these boards where people post examples of how much other health care workers despise doctors, and think they are a bunch of arrogant, overpaid, chumps and they know they can do their job better - hence the doctor of nursing practice/midlevel push for power??? If you're going into medicine for the respect ... I think you're in for quite a shock. It isn't 1955, and people really don't respect doctors. They think they are overpaid, unethical, and look for any chance to knock them down. This phenomenon is no less for MDs than it is for DOs.

Additionally, read my earlier replies ... I stated that I've read numerous DO residents and attendings on this forum state that they've gotten the question maybe 1-2 times in 5 years of residency and god knows how many years of practice. The "what's a DO" thing is another recycled SDN catchphrase people assume/use in these arguments. People go to the "doctor" to see a dermatologist, surgeon, Internist, OB/GYN, etc, not a MD/DO. People don't notice, don't know the difference, and don't care.

 

[SoulinNeed]

This is the Allopathic/Pre-Med forum. 'Nuff said. This argument is lame. Why would I go to a D.O. school? They work just as hard, take two boards, have an extra component to their medical education, fight for matches and don't receive half the respect M.D.s do. One of the biggest draws of medicine is the respect. Its absolute. Could you imagine finishing medical school, a hard residency, and a tough board examination to have the general public say "what's a D.O?" Its not fair that D.O.s don't get the public's respect as M.D.s do but its life.

I'll tell you this right now, you may very well end up hating medicine if you're becoming a doctor for the "respect". It may take you a number of years, but you're going to realize that you're just another employee buddy. If anything, doctors get more hate these days than respect.

BTW, I doubt any sensible person would be insecure enough to worry about the general public not understanding what a DO is. SO many posters on SDN make it seem like DO's are starving or something. A DO makes just as much as a MD. It's a fact. They're both doctors, they do the SAME work, they make the SAME money. DO=MD.

 

[apolito2321]

The fact of the matter is that DO IS a backup.

Source please.

You're trying to sound like you're being objective and realistic, but you aren't.

residency program directors care (to an extent)

I want to hear more about YOUR personal experience matching as a DO that led you to post this comment.

and the general public doesn't even know what a DO is (a lot of you guys probably didn't either until you came to SDN)

So? Who cares? Have you worked in a clinical setting with DOs? I have and still do. Guess how many patients ask what the DO stands for? (None)

It must be really frustrating for you, who can't understand why people would choose DO over MD. I know that it seems impossible, but not everyone has a decision making process identical to yours. Honestly, for as much as you claim that pre-DO students try to justify their "inferior" choice, people like you try harder to exaggerate the discrepancies between the degrees. Does it make you feel good to be on top?

(Just for the record, I was accepted into US MD and DO schools and chose DO - OMGZZZZZ)

 

[rawman]

This is the Allopathic/Pre-Med forum. 'Nuff said. This argument is lame. Why would I go to a D.O. school? They work just as hard, take two boards, have an extra component to their medical education, fight for matches and don't receive half the respect M.D.s do. One of the biggest draws of medicine is the respect. Its absolute. Could you imagine finishing medical school, a hard residency, and a tough board examination to have the general public say "what's a D.O?" Its not fair that D.O.s don't get the public's respect as M.D.s do but its life.

And after the 1-2 sentences it takes to explain what a DO is to the 1 curious person out of hundreds, I'm sure the patient will still gasp in horror thinking the antibiotics the DO just prescribed for the bacterial infection is secretly hoodoo magic.

When you find the position that offers all this respect, let me know so I can apply for the job too.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Source please.

You're trying to sound like you're being objective and realistic, but you aren't.



I want to hear more about YOUR personal experience matching as a DO that led you to post this comment.



So? Who cares? Have you worked in a clinical setting with DOs? I have and still do. Guess how many patients ask what the DO stands for? (None)

It must be really frustrating for you, who can't understand why people would choose DO over MD. I know that it seems impossible, but not everyone has a decision making process identical to yours. Honestly, for as much as you claim that pre-DO students try to justify their "inferior" choice, people like you try harder to exaggerate the discrepancies between the degrees. Does it make you feel good to be on top?

(Just for the record, I was accepted into US MD and DO schools and chose DO - OMGZZZZZ)

x a lot

 

[Poliscidoc]

Source please.

You're trying to sound like you're being objective and realistic, but you aren't.



I want to hear more about YOUR personal experience matching as a DO that led you to post this comment.



So? Who cares? Have you worked in a clinical setting with DOs? I have and still do. Guess how many patients ask what the DO stands for? (None)

It must be really frustrating for you, who can't understand why people would choose DO over MD. I know that it seems impossible, but not everyone has a decision making process identical to yours. Honestly, for as much as you claim that pre-DO students try to justify their "inferior" choice, people like you try harder to exaggerate the discrepancies between the degrees. Does it make you feel good to be on top?

(Just for the record, I was accepted into US MD and DO schools and chose DO - OMGZZZZZ)

Well said

 

[cbrons]

You know, I remember a pharmacy student told me he wanted to go into pharmacy because it was a place where he could get "respect" (this wasn't his only reason but was among the most attractive to him apparently).

Anyway his first hour of his first day on the job (working as a newly licensed RPh now in a Walgreen's in Illinois) this guy walks in, asks to speak to the pharmacist. The guy walks over to the semi-private window near the pharmacist's computer terminal. Anyway, the ****ing guy drops his shorts, proceeds to put his balls on the counter and asks him how to get rid of the redness.

I wouldn't have believed it if I wasn't the pharmacy tech working with him that day.

The moral of the story: all is vanity



Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

 

[drizzt3117]

For ACGME?? Yes. However, in my personal opinion ... it's not that cut and dry. I covered it in my initial (longer) response on the first page.

It's much harder to match into competitive acgme programs in competitive residencies as a DO. That's not to say it can't be done but you need to be that much better than the md applicants you're being compared with. It's not necessarily because of degree bias but because residency directors aren't as familiar with the programs and they aren't as homogenous bc of the LCME standardization for allo programs. If you look at the rads forum, DO ppl with 250+ are worried about their chances at community programs.

Also, while there's a bit of self-selection, 95% of md grads match into rads and 75% into derm... So I wouldn't say it's "out of reach"

 

[willen101383]

And you know what? When I match into the specialty of my choice after fighting an "uphill battle" according to the early 20 year old college kids on this forum I will feel that much better about myself. That I beat the (marginal) odds and am practicing in the field I want to practice in. People here need to stop giving a **** about what others think of them..and start only caring about themselves. The fact that SDN is flooded with such vain individuals who care so much about what other people think of them, shows their age and level of maturity. As you age you realize nobody you interact with at work
A. gives a crap where you went to school
B. (most non physicians) dont even know what medical school entails
C. If you are happy in your job
D. If you are successful
E. What you did last night/today.
F. (and for many immature posters here) Whether you had a Graco or an Evenflo crib as a (not so distant) infant.

Okay? My point is nobody gives a **** about where anyone went to med school. You think some hot nurse is going to think ur peen is bigger because you went to a MD school....NO. I personally think I am a hell of a lot more qualified and have a hell of a lot more life experience than most posters in the pre allo forum and yet I CHOSE to go to a DO school over an MD school because I just bought a house here and am established in my community.

This garbage has got to stop. Realize you are going to be a doctor either way you go. You will have equal practice rights, EQUAL RESPECT from your peers and patients, and will hopefully love your job either way you go.

 

[rockaction]

How would you rank them? If you did it by research like US News does, osteo schools would be at the bottom (granted Mercer and SIU would be down there with them). Would you rank them without publishing the methodology like the Gourman Report?

DO schools are in the US News rankings. For research, they're all in the bottom and unranked (no surprise) but some of them are ranked well in the primary care rankings (Michigan State's Osteopathic School is #7, Univ of North Texas is #19...)

 

[drizzt3117]

No one's saying there's not good reasons to attend a DO school. Life is about tradeoffs.

And you know what? When I match into the specialty of my choice after fighting an "uphill battle" according to the early 20 year old college kids on this forum I will feel that much better about myself. That I beat the (marginal) odds and am practicing in the field I want to practice in. People here need to stop giving a **** about what others think of them..and start only caring about themselves. The fact that SDN is flooded with such vain individuals who care so much about what other people think of them, shows their age and level of maturity. As you age you realize nobody you interact with at work
A. gives a crap where you went to school
B. (most non physicians) dont even know what medical school entails
C. If you are happy in your job
D. If you are successful
E. What you did last night/today.
F. (and for many immature posters here) Whether you had a Graco or an Evenflo crib as a (not so distant) infant.

Okay? My point is nobody gives a **** about where anyone went to med school. You think some hot nurse is going to think ur peen is bigger because you went to a MD school....NO. I personally think I am a hell of a lot more qualified and have a hell of a lot more life experience than most posters in the pre allo forum and yet I CHOSE to go to a DO school over an MD school because I just bought a house here and am established in my community.

This garbage has got to stop. Realize you are going to be a doctor either way you go. You will have equal practice rights, EQUAL RESPECT from your peers and patients, and will hopefully love your job either way you go.

 

[mdeast]

I hate to take the negative viewpoint...but definitely go MD if you can. Osteopathic schools used to be a clearly separate field and philosophy of training physicians. I think that, back in the day, there were justifiable reasons to choose DO over a MD school if you wanted to pursue medicine from a really different lens.

While there still are differences in curriculum/etc., most DO schools now function much like MD institutions. The philosophical gap has narrowed so much that they have become essentially the same degree...only that DO physicians aren't "quite" as respected and often have a harder time gaining slots in competitive residency positions at top institutions. Maybe this isn't what you want in the end, but I'm always the person that says "keep your options open". My other gripe with Osteopathic Schools is that they tend to enroll larger classes and offer less financial aid. I sometimes get the sense that many function as "for-profit" learning institutions, but this is probably a naive and uninformed preconception.

My advice: Keep your options open and go MD if you have the grades. DO schools are still awesome options and I'd recommend them over going abroad or to the Caribbean ANYDAY. But, I think choosing DO over MD for philosophical or environment reasons nowadays isn't as justifiable as it once was.

Just my two cents.

 

[willen101383]

No one's saying there's not good reasons to attend a DO school. Life is about tradeoffs.

My issue is that people post on here making ridiculous statements likening DO to bull**** medicine. Or that if you go to a DO school you wont be able to match. Is it harder to match to a ROADS? Sure. Is it that much harder that it should deter people? Eh doubtful (at least in my mind), unless you want to specialize in derm (which most people have absolutely no interest in).

But to get on here and say things like "DOs are not respected as much as MDs," and the like is just complete bull. or "It must sucks explaining over and over what a DO is." When that likely never happens. This example has been provided over and over here but I saw a DO from the day I was born until I graduated high school. My father is an MD heme/onc and never knew he was a DO until I stumbled upon it on a vacc record I needed for school.

The point is if you are sick you see a doctor. DO or MD

If you have a cavity you see a dentist. DDS or DMD

Nobody notices. We on SDN are generally in the know about medicine and medical topics but once you hit the deck and actually work in a hospital for an appreciable amount of time you will really find out how little people know.

Just yesterday I was picking up my physical form from my Drs office and his NURSE started talking to me about my school.

"Ohhhh you are going to medical school? Do you need to go to regular college first?" Well yes you need a bachelors..but I got my masters as well (this blew her mind that so much education was needed just to get in!) "So its like what two years more now?...uhh no its 4 plus residency." "Oh wow thats a long time...it must be hard to go to school and work full time doing all of that." Yeah work full time?

That came from a nurse. Now imagine what your typical patient knows.

 

[willen101383]

I hate to take the negative viewpoint...but definitely go MD if you can. Osteopathic schools used to be a clearly separate field and philosophy of training physicians. I think that, back in the day, there were justifiable reasons to choose DO over a MD school if you wanted to pursue medicine from a really different lens.

While there still are differences in curriculum/etc., most DO schools now function much like MD institutions. The philosophical gap has narrowed so much that they have become essentially the same degree...only that DO physicians aren't "quite" as respected and often have a harder time gaining slots in competitive residency positions at top institutions. Maybe this isn't what you want in the end, but I'm always the person that says "keep your options open". My other gripe with Osteopathic Schools is that they tend to enroll larger classes and offer less financial aid. I sometimes get the sense that many function as "for-profit" learning institutions, but this is probably a naive and uninformed preconception.

My advice: Keep your options open and go MD if you have the grades. DO schools are still awesome options and I'd recommend them over going abroad or to the Caribbean ANYDAY. But, I think choosing DO over MD for philosophical or environment reasons nowadays isn't as justifiable as it once was.

Just my two cents.

Youre going to stanford...so I am sure you are going into academic medicine/research. That right there is a valid reason for going to an MD school. DO schools arent quite the research powerhouses that some MD schools are. However some are very up and coming in that realm.

 

[mdeast]

Youre going to stanford...so I am sure you are going into academic medicine/research. That right there is a valid reason for going to an MD school. DO schools arent quite the research powerhouses that some MD schools are. However some are very up and coming in that realm.

That's exactly my point though. DO schools are up and coming in research. The gap in philosophies has diminished such that I don't think the degrees are really that different anymore. I think it used to be that people would choose DO schools over MD schools for the philosophy difference. But that difference has sort of diminished. I think we're at the point where most students choose DO schools because they weren't competitive for normal MD programs. This is my perception. Although, I admit I didn't apply to any DO schools in the process so I know less about them. Regardless, I think this is a common perception in the medical field among specialists. Even if it isn't necessarily truth.

 

[JaggerPlate]

It's much harder to match into competitive acgme programs in competitive residencies as a DO. That's not to say it can't be done but you need to be that much better than the md applicants you're being compared with. It's not necessarily because of degree bias but because residency directors aren't as familiar with the programs and they aren't as homogenous bc of the LCME standardization for allo programs. If you look at the rads forum, DO ppl with 250+ are worried about their chances at community programs.

Also, while there's a bit of self-selection, 95% of md grads match into rads and 75% into derm... So I wouldn't say it's "out of reach"

First, I'm not saying it's out of reach for US MD applicants. Second, I'm not, not, not stating it isn't easier for a US MD student to match ACGME programs. Why shouldn't it be? They are US MD programs and AOA spots aren't even open to MD graduates. However, keep in mind that while 75% of US MD students matched in derm, this is out of the people who applied and that still means 1 in every 4 didn't match. The people who apply to derm programs are cream of the crop, and 1 in every 4 US MD students who probably participated in similar threads years ago, went to the US MD school to "increase their odds," had the grades, LORs, step scores, etc, had to scramble, find a different field, or do something like a research year. Furthermore, there were a handful of DO ACGME derm matches and the AOA derm spots fill up every year. Obviously I don't have these numbers ... but food for thought.

Additionally, Rad Onc had a 17% unmatched rate (not 5% like you implied) and Diag Rads had a 14% unmatched rate (not 5%). Both pretty significant (my numbers are from 2009 - the 2008 match, which I assumed you were referring to because it was the only data I could find with 75% matching derm).

http://www.uth.tmc.edu/radiology/guide_to_radiology_match_2007_2008.htm

 

[JaggerPlate]

That's exactly my point though. DO schools are up and coming in research. The gap in philosophies has diminished such that I don't think the degrees are really that different anymore. I think it used to be that people would choose DO schools over MD schools for the philosophy difference. But that difference has sort of diminished. I think we're at the point where most students choose DO schools because they weren't competitive for normal MD programs. This is my perception. Although, I admit I didn't apply to any DO schools in the process so I know less about them. Regardless, I think this is a common perception in the medical field among specialists. Even if it isn't necessarily truth.

The DO "philosophy" doesn't really exist, and, frankly, I think it's kind of insulting to MD students. "DOs treat the whole patient." Ummm ... so do MDs. Both schools give you the opportunity to treat as "whole patient" oriented or disease oriented as you'd like, but I always thought it was kind of odd to state that MDs treatment is somewhat lesser or that they focus on diseases, not patients.

However, technically a small, small portion of people do come out of DO schools and utilize mechanisms that aren't (as easily) available to MDs by using OMM in their practice, but the numbers are small. There is probably an integration of these "principles" that makes it somewhat unique, but the numbesr are too small in my opinion. Like I said before ... I personally don't think picking a school based on "philosophy" - in either case - makes much sense.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I hate to take the negative viewpoint...but definitely go MD if you can. Osteopathic schools used to be a clearly separate field and philosophy of training physicians. I think that, back in the day, there were justifiable reasons to choose DO over a MD school if you wanted to pursue medicine from a really different lens.

While there still are differences in curriculum/etc., most DO schools now function much like MD institutions. The philosophical gap has narrowed so much that they have become essentially the same degree...only that DO physicians aren't "quite" as respected and often have a harder time gaining slots in competitive residency positions at top institutions. Maybe this isn't what you want in the end, but I'm always the person that says "keep your options open". My other gripe with Osteopathic Schools is that they tend to enroll larger classes and offer less financial aid. I sometimes get the sense that many function as "for-profit" learning institutions, but this is probably a naive and uninformed preconception.

My advice: Keep your options open and go MD if you have the grades. DO schools are still awesome options and I'd recommend them over going abroad or to the Caribbean ANYDAY. But, I think choosing DO over MD for philosophical or environment reasons nowadays isn't as justifiable as it once was.

Just my two cents.

Your post is pretty fair, but again (highlighted portion) I don't see a lot of hard facts regarding this. DOs match well into the ACGME world, practice along side MDs everyday, have full waiting rooms, have to turn down patients, practice in every field of medicine, etc, etc. I really think that if you want to make those type of statements, you should clarify like "there aren't as many DOs in academia." That would make sense to me. Saying "they aren't as respected," just sounds silly.

 

[thejetplane]

I've been following this thread since I'm applying both MD and DO next cycle, and I find it interesting that the three people who seem to be the most against D.O. schools are URM applicants. I know this is a small sample size, but would it be fair to say that maybe these individuals feel like they have something to prove by attaining the M.D. label? I've heard some people say that AA doctors have to work twice as hard to garner the same respect as their white counterparts; while I'm not sure of the validity of this statement, it seems to be a popular belief among the URM community.

I think the more widely recognized "M.D." label may be important to these individuals because they feel that being a "D.O." would be another means by which their colleagues could undermine their accomplishments or prestige. Unless the D.O. label ever really hits "mainstream" (e.g. House, D.O.), it may be harder to convince them to hold the the D.O. and M.D. degrees in the same esteem, something the medical community has long since embraced. Hierarchies certainly exist within the medical community, but they seem to be more centered around specialties or positions as oppposed to degree types. Clearly, society for the most part does not know the difference and could care less whether someone has an M.D. or D.O.

 

[drizzt3117]

My numbers are from charting outcomes 2009, for all us md students that ranked only one field.

I can only speak for my own school and the experiences I've heard about from acquaintances, but most of the people who don't match are reaching for a specialty or for location. It's hard to take self-selection into account, obviously if you get a 200 step you're probably not matching prs as either do or md, but at our school per our career services office, 100% of people over the step average for their specialty matched somewhere in their field of choice in the last three years, yes, even in plastics and derm.

First, I'm not saying it's out of reach for US MD applicants. Second, I'm not, not, not stating it isn't easier for a US MD student to match ACGME programs. Why shouldn't it be? They are US MD programs and AOA spots aren't even open to MD graduates. However, keep in mind that while 75% of US MD students matched in derm, this is out of the people who applied and that still means 1 in every 4 didn't match. The people who apply to derm programs are cream of the crop, and 1 in every 4 US MD students who probably participated in similar threads years ago, went to the US MD school to "increase their odds," had the grades, LORs, step scores, etc, had to scramble, find a different field, or do something like a research year. Furthermore, there were a handful of DO ACGME derm matches and the AOA derm spots fill up every year. Obviously I don't have these numbers ... but food for thought.

Additionally, Rad Onc had a 17% unmatched rate (not 5% like you implied) and Diag Rads had a 14% unmatched rate (not 5%). Both pretty significant (my numbers are from 2009 - the 2008 match, which I assumed you were referring to because it was the only data I could find with 75% matching derm).

http://www.uth.tmc.edu/radiology/guide_to_radiology_match_2007_2008.htm

 

[JaggerPlate]

100% of people over the step average for their specialty matched somewhere in their field of choice in the last three years, yes, even in plastics and derm.

What is the average for derm though? 240++ or something? Frankly, I'm inclined to look at 25% US MD students not matching as a more reliable and less anecdotal indicator than 100% of your school matching if they are above the step average. However, that is impressive and should set you up pretty sweet.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I've been following this thread since I'm applying both MD and DO next cycle, and I find it interesting that the three people who seem to be the most against D.O. schools are URM applicants. I know this is a small sample size, but would it be fair to say that maybe these individuals feel like they have something to prove by attaining the M.D. label? I've heard some people say that AA doctors have to work twice as hard to garner the same respect as their white counterparts; while I'm not sure of the validity of this statement, it seems to be a popular belief among the URM community.

I think the more widely recognized "M.D." label may be important to these individuals because they feel that being a "D.O." would be another means by which their colleagues could undermine their accomplishments or prestige. Unless the D.O. label ever really hits "mainstream" (e.g. House, D.O.), it may be harder to convince them to hold the the D.O. and M.D. degrees in the same esteem, something the medical community has long since embraced. Hierarchies certainly exist within the medical community, but they seem to be more centered around specialties or positions as oppposed to degree types. Clearly, society for the most part does not know the difference and could care less whether someone has an M.D. or D.O.

Ehh ... I don't know. The URM thing gets thrown around a lot on SDN. I'm sure there are patterns to DO bias (for example, I know Northern California is one of the places where the attitude seems to be extremely negative - despite the fact that the tout themselves as the most open-minded, accepting people on the planet ** Nor Cal sucks **), but it's tricky and I'm not sure how much the URM status, their difference in matriculation stats, etc, has to do with it. Maybe, who knows??

 

[mdeast]

Your post is pretty fair, but again (highlighted portion) I don't see a lot of hard facts regarding this. DOs match well into the ACGME world, practice along side MDs everyday, have full waiting rooms, have to turn down patients, practice in every field of medicine, etc, etc. I really think that if you want to make those type of statements, you should clarify like "there aren't as many DOs in academia." That would make sense to me. Saying "they aren't as respected," just sounds silly.

I know everyone tries to be PC on here. But there is a bias (even though I think it isn't justified). I will say that I had an ex-BF who is yes, a incredible, spoiled brat. I had to take him to the ER once. A DO doc came in. My BF, being the pushy, rude, obnoxious lawyer he was, instructed the nurse he wanted a "real physician".

This is an isolated case and I totally don't agree with it. I was mortified actually. But, there are people out there who still have biases. Oftentimes these are people who are either (1) ignorant of the field (2) MDs with a high nose. You're less likely to encounter this sort of problems of authority as a MD. You can argue either way from personal experience, but just the existence of these "stereotypes" is most likely rooted in truth.

 

[drizzt3117]

What is the average for derm though? 240++ or something? Frankly, I'm inclined to look at 25% US MD students not matching as a more reliable and less anecdotal indicator than 100% of your school matching if they are above the step average. However, that is impressive and should set you up pretty sweet.

average for derm this last year was 242.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

And you know what? When I match into the specialty of my choice after fighting an "uphill battle" according to the early 20 year old college kids on this forum I will feel that much better about myself. That I beat the (marginal) odds and am practicing in the field I want to practice in. People here need to stop giving a **** about what others think of them..and start only caring about themselves. The fact that SDN is flooded with such vain individuals who care so much about what other people think of them, shows their age and level of maturity. As you age you realize nobody you interact with at work
A. gives a crap where you went to school
B. (most non physicians) dont even know what medical school entails
C. If you are happy in your job
D. If you are successful
E. What you did last night/today.
F. (and for many immature posters here) Whether you had a Graco or an Evenflo crib as a (not so distant) infant.

Okay? My point is nobody gives a **** about where anyone went to med school. You think some hot nurse is going to think ur peen is bigger because you went to a MD school....NO. I personally think I am a hell of a lot more qualified and have a hell of a lot more life experience than most posters in the pre allo forum and yet I CHOSE to go to a DO school over an MD school because I just bought a house here and am established in my community.

This garbage has got to stop. Realize you are going to be a doctor either way you go. You will have equal practice rights, EQUAL RESPECT from your peers and patients, and will hopefully love your job either way you go.

calm your hysteria down. christ.

 

[Forven]

i feel that i must apologize for resuscitating this monster of a thread.

now everyone leave immediately.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Please become a "real" doctor. Derm is so not worth spending all those years in med school for. I mean, when is the last time you heard a kid say "I really think what a dermatologist does is so cool... I want to be a dermatologist when I grow up." I'm not a fan of lifestyle specialities.

ER docs are cool and sexy, as are almost any other specialties. Can't believe so many people just want a cushy life with a pointless job. Derm docs don't even treat burn victims for the most part.

average for derm this last year was 242.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I know everyone tries to be PC on here. But there is a bias (even though I think it isn't justified). I will say that I had an ex-BF who is yes, a incredible, spoiled brat. I had to take him to the ER once. A DO doc came in. My BF, being the pushy, rude, obnoxious lawyer he was, instructed the nurse he wanted a "real physician".

This is an isolated case and I totally don't agree with it. I was mortified actually. But, there are people out there who still have biases. Oftentimes these are people who are either (1) ignorant of the field (2) MDs with a high nose. You're less likely to encounter this sort of problems of authority as a MD. You can argue either way from personal experience, but just the existence of these "stereotypes" is most likely rooted in truth.

Eh ... I'll trade you one anecdotal experience for another:

I worked in a huge academic ER in So Cal for two years. The ER director/head of the department was a God. The guy was seriously amazing, everyone liked him, etc, etc. I found out a few days in that he is a DO who graduated from a very reputable Osteo school. His scrubs said "DO" above his title (director, chief, something ... I don't remember exactly, but he was the boss), and when people would complain about the MD residents, attendings, etc, he was the "real doctor" that would come straighten it out.

It's honestly all anecdotal. I've heard people say horrible things to minority doctors, call female doctors "nurse" after being repeatedly corrected, etc. It's all conjecture and it's difficult to say that this phenomenon of dealing with d-bags (in your ex-bfs case) is something that will only affect DOs or affect DOs more than MDs.

 

[cubssox2000]

First, I'm not saying it's out of reach for US MD applicants. Second, I'm not, not, not stating it isn't easier for a US MD student to match ACGME programs. Why shouldn't it be? They are US MD programs and AOA spots aren't even open to MD graduates. However, keep in mind that while 75% of US MD students matched in derm, this is out of the people who applied and that still means 1 in every 4 didn't match. The people who apply to derm programs are cream of the crop, and 1 in every 4 US MD students who probably participated in similar threads years ago, went to the US MD school to "increase their odds," had the grades, LORs, step scores, etc, had to scramble, find a different field, or do something like a research year. Furthermore, there were a handful of DO ACGME derm matches and the AOA derm spots fill up every year. Obviously I don't have these numbers ... but food for thought.

Additionally, Rad Onc had a 17% unmatched rate (not 5% like you implied) and Diag Rads had a 14% unmatched rate (not 5%). Both pretty significant (my numbers are from 2009 - the 2008 match, which I assumed you were referring to because it was the only data I could find with 75% matching derm).

http://www.uth.tmc.edu/radiology/guide_to_radiology_match_2007_2008.htm

I've stayed out of this debate until now, but I had to comment once residency stats starting being brought up. I am not taking sides on this debate, but i do feel that it is important for the best information available to be presented.

Your logic is sound that DOs can get into ACGME residencies, but it does not play out. Your claim that DOs match well in ACGME programs is really not quite accurate. DOs only account for ~6% of the residency spots, less than US IMG and less than half of what non-US IMG have. For instance, taking the derm example that you have been using:

23 out of 29 that matched into Derm were Allo. Of the 6 people that matched who were not Allo, only 2 of them were Osteo. This means that the DO population of residents is 6% in Derm.

Now this might not seem so telling, but think about it in these terms:
Since 2006, the 95% of allo students match into ACGME programs. In comparison, only 70% of osteo applicants match (up from 65% in 2006). This is the basic argument that is trying to be made in this thread. If you want to match into any ACGME program, you have a greatly increased chance of doing so through an MD program as opposed to a DO program. The other major telling issue is that of the 3000 DO applicants to ACGME programs, 700 withdrew their application and more than half those that were matched went into primary care specialties (including peds, it gets closer to 2/3).

There is no doubt that DO schools are on the rise, and that at this point in the real world (as in, not on SDN) MD=DO. I am not saying that one program is better than the other, but in terms of residency options and programs, there is no doubt that the MD route is the safer bet. Although, as stated previously, if there are substantial external factors (e.g. living arrangements), choosing a DO over an MD can make sense.

As for those of who keep asking for sources, here is mine: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf
Look at tables 2, 4 and 11 and figure 2.

 

[drizzt3117]

Considering bcc is the most common skin cancer and with our aging pooulation, it's going to be more prevalent, there's lots of demand, in fact derm is pretty underserved largely because of the lifestyle component, a lot of women are going into it and working part time.

That being said, at one pt in time I'd considered going into derm/path until I had my derm rotation... Mind numbing.

Please become a "real" doctor. Derm is so not worth spending all those years in med school for. I mean, when is the last time you heard a kid say "I really think what a dermatologist does is so cool... I want to be a dermatologist when I grow up." I'm not a fan of lifestyle specialities.

ER docs are cool and sexy, as are almost any other specialties. Can't believe so many people just want a cushy life with a pointless job. Derm docs don't even treat burn victims for the most part.

 

[mdeast]

Considering bcc is the most common skin cancer and with our aging pooulation, it's going to be more prevalent, there's lots of demand, in fact derm is pretty underserved largely because of the lifestyle component, a lot of women are going into it and working part time.

That being said, at one pt in time I'd considered going into derm/path until I had my derm rotation... Mind numbing.

Hmmm...what's with all this derm hating? I think derm gets a bad reputation sometimes. Here's some of the positives...

(1) You get to follow your patients long-term and build strong relationships.
(2) Mix of internal medicine/surgery. Evaluating conditions, ordering tests, as well as conducting small surgical procedures.
(3) Good lifestyle, shorter, flexible hours, high pay.

To be honest, I don't see it as being too much different than some other specialties that pay less. It's not flashy and "cool" like others, and I don't really see myself personally going into it. But, I don't have the typical negative viewpoint most have. When I'm 35 and have been in school for 10 years, I don't think I'd mind have a job that lets me meet new people everyday, help them solve problems that can be very personally troublesome (remember, skin problems are easily noticed. You wear your disease on your "skin"), and make some big bucks in the process. I think I value different things in life, but I wouldn't for a second look down upon someone for choosing the opposite.

 

[cubssox2000]

Hmmm...what's with all this derm hating? I think derm gets a bad reputation sometimes. Here's some of the positives...

(1) You get to follow your patients long-term and build strong relationships.
(2) Mix of internal medicine/surgery. Evaluating conditions, ordering tests, as well as conducting small surgical procedures.
(3) Good lifestyle, shorter, flexible hours, high pay.

To be honest, I don't see it as being too much different than some other specialties that pay less.

Definitely have some love for derm. I was perpetuating the existing example. As a side note, 3 oncologists have told me that dermatologists cure more cancer than they do.

 

[drizzt3117]

it's brutally boring and you are doing a lot of psych in it.

I'm sure lots or people like it, it's just not for me. I like imaging, the brain, and non-invasive procedures. So NIR is a no brainer, so to speak

Hmmm...what's with all this derm hating? I think derm gets a bad reputation sometimes. Here's some of the positives...

(1) You get to follow your patients long-term and build strong relationships.
(2) Mix of internal medicine/surgery. Evaluating conditions, ordering tests, as well as conducting small surgical procedures.
(3) Good lifestyle, shorter, flexible hours, high pay.

To be honest, I don't see it as being too much different than some other specialties that pay less. It's not flashy and "cool" like others, and I don't really see myself personally going into it. But, I don't have the typical negative viewpoint most have. When I'm 35 and have been in school for 10 years, I don't think I'd mind have a job that lets me meet new people everyday, help them solve problems that can be very personally troublesome (remember, skin problems are easily noticed. You wear your disease on your "skin"), and make some big bucks in the process.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I've stayed out of this debate until now, but I had to comment once residency stats starting being brought up. I am not taking sides on this debate, but i do feel that it is important for the best information available to be presented.

Your logic is sound that DOs can get into ACGME residencies, but it does not play out. Your claim that DOs match well in ACGME programs is really not quite accurate. DOs only account for ~6% of the residency spots, less than US IMG and less than half of what non-US IMG have. For instance, taking the derm example that you have been using:

23 out of 29 that matched into Derm were Allo. Of the 6 people that matched who were not Allo, only 2 of them were Osteo. This means that the DO population of residents is 6% in Derm.

Now this might not seem so telling, but think about it in these terms:
Since 2006, the 95% of allo students match into ACGME programs. In comparison, only 70% of osteo applicants match (up from 65% in 2006). This is the basic argument that is trying to be made in this thread. If you want to match into any ACGME program, you have a greatly increased chance of doing so through an MD program as opposed to a DO program. The other major telling issue is that of the 3000 DO applicants to ACGME programs, 700 withdrew their application and more than half those that were matched went into primary care specialties (including peds, it gets closer to 2/3).

There is no doubt that DO schools are on the rise, and that at this point in the real world (as in, not on SDN) MD=DO. I am not saying that one program is better than the other, but in terms of residency options and programs, there is no doubt that the MD route is the safer bet. Although, as stated previously, if there are substantial external factors (e.g. living arrangements), choosing a DO over an MD can make sense.

As for those of who keep asking for sources, here is mine: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf
Look at tables 2, 4 and 11 and figure 2.

A few things ...

1. I'm not denying US MDs match better into ACGME specialites

2. Keep in mind that the numbers may seem even lower because there are far, far fewer DO applicants apply for certain spots. For example, only 2 DOs went ACGME dermatology ... out of how many? It's not like it's 2 out of 3,000. Keep in mind that I wouldn't even recommend that a DO apply ACGME derm, but it's something to keep in mind.

3. With the 70% vs 90% ... keep in mind that DOs have their own set of AOA residencies that are only open to osteo applicants. Saying only 70% match into ACGME is not the same thing as saying only 70% got what they wanted compared to 90% of MD students (newest data says 93.3 % vs 70.6% I think). If the goal is simply to match x specialty, it can be done from both sides (AOA and ACGME). Now, again, strictly from the POV of matching ACGME residencies ... yes, US MDs have it easier. I've never denied this, and if this was the crux of the thread ... there would be no argument. Unfortunately, that's not the course it's taken.

4. Also (don't flame me here) I've personally heard differing things about the chances of landing a specialized AOA residency for a DO vs a specialized ACGME residency for an MD. This is completely anecdotal, but I've had DO residents tell me differing things. Again, strict numbers game - total number of students compared to total number of spots ... US MD -> ACGME is the path of least resistance.

5. I don't know why people are bagging on derm (unrelated to your post btw). It's a great field for a lot of reasons.

 

[swamprat]

Ummm.. +1 for applying to DO as a backup.

One thing I can't agree with jagger is the fact that DO schools stats are up and coming and rising. Bullsh*t... they are what they are. I had no problem getting into 7 DO schools but **** man, MD schools.. I got lucky, they don't give you the time of day, and even when you get to the interview all they want to know is why you're MCAT isn't higher. I would have had a lot more luck if I raised my MCAT score with MD schools, fortunately I didn't need to. I would have been happy going DO because you can be a doctor, but I just don't know why anyone (minus location - but even then) would choose the less known, "slightly more difficult to match bla bla" degree over the MD which everyone knows. 2 applicants with all else being equal, who would get the residency spot, MD or DO? Yeah I know no two will ever be equal, but just think about it.

 

[WNT Signaling]

Your logic is sound that DOs can get into ACGME residencies, but it does not play out. Your claim that DOs match well in ACGME programs is really not quite accurate. DOs only account for ~6% of the residency spots, less than US IMG and less than half of what non-US IMG have. For instance, taking the derm example that you have been using:

23 out of 29 that matched into Derm were Allo. Of the 6 people that matched who were not Allo, only 2 of them were Osteo. This means that the DO population of residents is 6% in Derm.

Just to clarify for everyone, you only looked at PGY-1 derm programs (2/31), but when you look at PGY-2 programs, the number is 0/329, making the exact percent of osteo derm matches at ACGME programs 0.56%

 

[WNT Signaling]

One thing I can't agree with jagger is the fact that DO schools stats are up and coming and rising. Bullsh*t...

The reality is that stats are rising at allopathic schools too

 

[cubssox2000]

A few things ...

1. I'm not denying US MDs match better into ACGME specialites

2. Keep in mind that the numbers may seem even lower because there are far, far fewer DO applicants apply for certain spots. For example, only 2 DOs went ACGME dermatology ... out of how many? It's not like it's 2 out of 3,000. Keep in mind that I wouldn't even recommend that a DO apply ACGME derm, but it's something to keep in mind.

3. With the 70% vs 90% ... keep in mind that DOs have their own set of AOA residencies that are only open to osteo applicants. Saying only 70% match into ACGME is not the same thing as saying only 70% got what they wanted compared to 90% of MD students (newest data says 93.3 % vs 70.6% I think). If the goal is simply to match x specialty, it can be done from both sides (AOA and ACGME). Now, again, strictly from the POV of matching ACGME residencies ... yes, US MDs have it easier. I've never denied this, and if this was the crux of the thread ... there would be no argument. Unfortunately, that's not the course it's taken.

4. Also (don't flame me here) I've personally heard differing things about the chances of landing a specialized AOA residency for a DO vs a specialized ACGME residency for an MD. This is completely anecdotal, but I've had DO residents tell me differing things. Again, strict numbers game - total number of students compared to total number of spots ... US MD -> ACGME is the path of least resistance.

5. I don't know why people are bagging on derm (unrelated to your post btw). It's a great field for a lot of reasons.

I agree with you on all points. The article did not list how many people applied to each specialty (except for allo), so it is hard to judge exactly what percentage of people are matching. I think that the most telling figure out of the entire article was that 25% of DO applicants withdrew at some point in the process. Clearly I do not know when (before or after interviews for example), which could be very telling in and of itself.

The reason I felt compelled to post the article is because you stated that DOs match regularly into ACGME programs, and that point is not as true as it seems. Despite the fact that the DO degree is becoming more and more accepted in the medical community, DOs still have a very difficult time getting into ACGME programs. Regarding AOA specialties, that is a whole other argument for a different time .

Clearly the original point of this thread was to incite the MD/DO debate. Personally, I am quite surprised (and pleased) that for the most part the debate has stayed fairly civil.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Ummm.. +1 for applying to DO as a backup.

One thing I can't agree with jagger is the fact that DO schools stats are up and coming and rising. Bullsh*t... they are what they are. I had no problem getting into 7 DO schools but **** man, MD schools.. I got lucky, they don't give you the time of day, and even when you get to the interview all they want to know is why you're MCAT isn't higher. I would have had a lot more luck if I raised my MCAT score with MD schools, fortunately I didn't need to. I would have been happy going DO because you can be a doctor, but I just don't know why anyone (minus location - but even then) would choose the less known, "slightly more difficult to match bla bla" degree over the MD which everyone knows. 2 applicants with all else being equal, who would get the residency spot, MD or DO? Yeah I know no two will ever be equal, but just think about it.

LOL wow. I remember thinking you were a legit guy when you were applying. Guess not. It's for the best you ended up at a MD school, and not CCOM or wherever else you were considering DO. Seems like it's something that would have bothered you forever. Best of luck.