Should I choose to go to allopathic or osteopathic medical school?

[drizzt3117]

Well keep in mind that going to an aoa residency can hurt you for fellowship and attending positions, at least in some fields. There was recently a post in the do forum by a do anesthesiologist who basically stated that there's no bias against dos unless they went to an aoa gas residency. I don't know anything about that field beyond that, but it's something to think about.

A few things ...

1. I'm not denying US MDs match better into ACGME specialites

2. Keep in mind that the numbers may seem even lower because there are far, far fewer DO applicants apply for certain spots. For example, only 2 DOs went ACGME dermatology ... out of how many? It's not like it's 2 out of 3,000. Keep in mind that I wouldn't even recommend that a DO apply ACGME derm, but it's something to keep in mind.

3. With the 70% vs 90% ... keep in mind that DOs have their own set of AOA residencies that are only open to osteo applicants. Saying only 70% match into ACGME is not the same thing as saying only 70% got what they wanted compared to 90% of MD students (newest data says 93.3 % vs 70.6% I think). If the goal is simply to match x specialty, it can be done from both sides (AOA and ACGME). Now, again, strictly from the POV of matching ACGME residencies ... yes, US MDs have it easier. I've never denied this, and if this was the crux of the thread ... there would be no argument. Unfortunately, that's not the course it's taken.

4. Also (don't flame me here) I've personally heard differing things about the chances of landing a specialized AOA residency for a DO vs a specialized ACGME residency for an MD. This is completely anecdotal, but I've had DO residents tell me differing things. Again, strict numbers game - total number of students compared to total number of spots ... US MD -> ACGME is the path of least resistance.

5. I don't know why people are bagging on derm (unrelated to your post btw). It's a great field for a lot of reasons.

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[JaggerPlate]

I agree with you on all points. The article did not list how many people applied to each specialty (except for allo), so it is hard to judge exactly what percentage of people are matching. I think that the most telling figure out of the entire article was that 25% of DO applicants withdrew at some point in the process. Clearly I do not know when (before or after interviews for example), which could be very telling in and of itself.

The reason I felt compelled to post the article is because you stated that DOs match regularly into ACGME programs, and that point is not as true as it seems. Despite the fact that the DO degree is becoming more and more accepted in the medical community, DOs still have a very difficult time getting into ACGME programs. Regarding AOA specialties, that is a whole other argument for a different time .

Clearly the original point of this thread was to incite the MD/DO debate. Personally, I am quite surprised (and pleased) that for the most part the debate has stayed fairly civil.

71% matching without taking AOA residencies into consideration??? Not too shabby all around. I've also stated this fact before, but remember that a MD is not a pass to the residency of your choice. If you get average grades, LORs, and barely pass Step I ... don't expect to be handed a derm residency simply because you went US MD. Conversely, don't expect an ACGME derm residency spot simply because you're a hot shiz DO. It's uber competitive all around, and I think this is understated on SDN a lot of the time.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Well keep in mind that going to an aoa residency can hurt you for fellowship and attending positions, at least in some fields. There was recently a post in the do forum by a do anesthesiologist who basically stated that there's no bias against dos unless they went to an aoa gas residency. I don't know anything about that field beyond that, but it's something to think about.

I completely agree:

1. If you want to do an IM fellowship, I highly recommend completing an ACGME IM residency. Frankly, DOs have no trouble matching into ACGME IM. They may get guff at MGH or something, but on the whole ... no issue.

2. If you want gas fellowships or a free pass to practice anywhere, go ACGME gas. Again, the last few match lists have demonstrated that ACGME gas is well represented with DOs.

Personally, these are the only two issues I've heard of and had a DO gas attending who completed an AOA residency strongly disagree with the Anes commentary.

 

[cubssox2000]

71% matching without taking AOA residencies into consideration??? Not too shabby all around. I've also stated this fact before, but remember that a MD is not a pass to the residency of your choice. If you get average grades, LORs, and barely pass Step I ... don't expect to be handed a derm residency simply because you went US MD. Conversely, don't expect an ACGME derm residency spot simply because you're a hot shiz DO. It's uber competitive all around, and I think this is understated on SDN a lot of the time.

Again, I agree with you. The problem is that out of an MD program you are basically guaranteed to match to an ACGME residency (maybe not a great match, but at least A match). Coming from a DO program, you don't have nearly the same probability for getting an ACGME residency. 20 percent is a very significant statistic. Clearly barely passing through either route will not get you any kind of super specialty (e.g. ROAD), but at least the MD will have a near guarantee to a residency program. Of course, DOs have the same probability when they go into AOA programs, but thats not what we are talking about here.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Again, I agree with you. The problem is that out of an MD program you are basically guaranteed to match to an ACGME residency (maybe not a great match, but at least A match). Coming from a DO program, you don't have nearly the same probability for getting an ACGME residency. 20 percent is a very significant statistic. Clearly barely passing through either route will not get you any kind of super specialty (e.g. ROAD), but at least the MD will have a near guarantee to a residency program. Of course, DOs have the same probability when they go into AOA programs, but thats not what we are talking about here.

True. If we are talking STRICTLY about ACGME programs, then US MDs have a better chance (about 20% better). Again, I truly have no issue with this. However, I really don't think we can simply dismiss the fact that DOs do have AOA residencies, because otherwise we're assuming that 30% of DOs simply do not match ... and this isn't the case.

 

[avatarftw]

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[avatarftw]

a

 

[JaggerPlate]

I haven't been able to find the Osteopathic residency match list but the article I read from the AOA wasn't very flattering; it had more applicants than spots for residency IF I remember correctly.

Jaggerplate, I respectfully think that you play up the possibility of matching with the DO residencies too much. I think that its a fair statement that people, in general, want to match the best lifestyle specialties. (compensation+ low hours, really, high per-hour reimbursement) Going MD gives you a better chance for that, usually.

Heck, my friend wants a certain specialty that is NOT OFFERED via the DO route. There is a limit to anecdotal evidence, but when everybody starts saying something, well....you know the idea. DO=MD and MD=DO, however, we'll all be physicians.

Technically, the number of spots per applicants on the US MD side isn't flattering anymore either. Wasn't this the first year that there weren't enough spots in the scramble or something? Furthermore, you're correct in stating that AOA OGME needs work. However, it is unfair to simply state "93.3 % of MDs match ACGME and 70.6% of DOs do" and completely ignore the fact that DOs do have other options.

Additionally, what specialty is your friend looking into? The only fields I'm aware of are pathology (which has a horrendous job market right now, the AOA president recently announced that they were revamping DO Path residencies, and DOs match well into ACGME path) and Nuclear medicine (which, from my understanding, is completely dying as a field).

Listen, I get that people like to fall back on some of the ideas floating around in this thread. Additionally, I accept the fact that many of them are based in some truth. However, my whole point is that many times, these ideas are simply SDN conjecture and when people (ie me) try to state differently, were labeled as crazy osteopaths.

Chino, also, feel free not to answer if you don't want to ... but I seem to remember you had a DO acceptance and were waiting on a MD waitlist. Did you end up getting off the waitlist (I seem to recall you were looking to go Allo)?? Just curious.

 

[JaggerPlate]

We could set up a poll for DO students to say if they went DO as a backup or not, to settle that issue. It could be:

A. Went DO only.
B. Applied to both MD and DO without preference; only wanted a cheaper school or better location.
C. Applied to DO as a backup.
D. Applied only MD.

How do you do polls?

Yikes ... to be honest, I think this would be too unfair in this thread.

 

[mspeedwagon]

One huge negative... it's the most boring job in the world. I mean, really... after all those years of school... at least pick something relatively challenging. I don't disagree with 3.. and I think 3 is the reason most people go into it.

Hmmm...what's with all this derm hating? I think derm gets a bad reputation sometimes. Here's some of the positives...

(1) You get to follow your patients long-term and build strong relationships.
(2) Mix of internal medicine/surgery. Evaluating conditions, ordering tests, as well as conducting small surgical procedures.
(3) Good lifestyle, shorter, flexible hours, high pay.

To be honest, I don't see it as being too much different than some other specialties that pay less. It's not flashy and "cool" like others, and I don't really see myself personally going into it. But, I don't have the typical negative viewpoint most have. When I'm 35 and have been in school for 10 years, I don't think I'd mind have a job that lets me meet new people everyday, help them solve problems that can be very personally troublesome (remember, skin problems are easily noticed. You wear your disease on your "skin"), and make some big bucks in the process. I think I value different things in life, but I wouldn't for a second look down upon someone for choosing the opposite.

 

[mspeedwagon]

As someone that will likely apply both M.D. and D.O., I have a strong geographical preference. I would go to a D.O. school on the west coast, long before I considered an M.D. school on the east coast.

I've worked with a ton of D.O.s at the Harvard hospitals (Dana-Farber, MGH, Mass Eye & Ear) and at Stanford Hospital. They are well represented everywhere. As I've only worked and shadowed in peds specialities I can't make a more general comment. However, as I want to do peds and being close to my gf is important to me, I could care less about M.D. or D.O. My gf will be an M.D. and I'll likely be a D.O.... maybe we can debate this together.

We could set up a poll for DO students to say if they went DO as a backup or not, to settle that issue. It could be:

A. Went DO only.
B. Applied to both MD and DO without preference; only wanted a cheaper school or better location.
C. Applied to DO as a backup.
D. Applied only MD.

How do you do polls?

 

[cubssox2000]

True. If we are talking STRICTLY about ACGME programs, then US MDs have a better chance (about 20% better). Again, I truly have no issue with this. However, I really don't think we can simply dismiss the fact that DOs do have AOA residencies, because otherwise we're assuming that 30% of DOs simply do not match ... and this isn't the case.

Clearly having 30% of DOs not match is not happening, otherwise DO schools would cease to exist.

 

[WNT Signaling]

As someone that will likely apply both M.D. and D.O., I have a strong geographical preference. I would go to a D.O. school on the west coast, long before I considered an M.D. school on the east coast.

I've worked with a ton of D.O.s at the Harvard hospitals (Dana-Farber, MGH, Mass Eye & Ear) and at Stanford Hospital. They are well represented everywhere. As I've only worked and shadowed in peds specialities I can't make a more general comment. However, as I want to do peds and being close to my gf is important to me, I could care less about M.D. or D.O. My gf will be an M.D. and I'll likely be a D.O.... maybe we can debate this together.

This is bull. Dana Farber has one osteopathic physician http://physicians.dana-farber.org/directory/profile.asp?dbase=main&setsize=10&keyword=D%2EO%2E&grouptype_typeid=1&display=Y&nxtfmt=pc&pgt=Suzanne+Berlin%2C+D%2EO%2E&gs=pc&pict_id=0000420

At MGH, there are 12 osteopathic physicians in a hospital system of 1868 physicians http://www.mgh.harvard.edu/doctors/search.aspx?st=0&center=doctors&q=DO&x=0&y=0

Mass Eye & Ear and Stanford do not have search options that allow you to look for osteopathic physicians

 

[Just Joshin]

Since 2006, the 95% of allo students match into ACGME programs. In comparison, only 70% of osteo applicants match (up from 65% in 2006). This is the basic argument that is trying to be made in this thread. If you want to match into any ACGME program, you have a greatly increased chance of doing so through an MD program as opposed to a DO program. The other major telling issue is that of the 3000 DO applicants to ACGME programs, 700 withdrew their application and more than half those that were matched went into primary care specialties (including peds, it gets closer to 2/3).

What you fail to realize is that if the DO match comes before the MD match and if those people matched DO, their applications are automatically withdrawn from the MD match. This also explains why 70% of DOs match ACGME (and if I'm not mistaken, that number was higher this past year).

As for DOs only accounting for 6% of ACGME residency slots, you are aware that there are only 28 DO schools, right? You are aware there's a DO match, right? If you were to compare match rates by how many U.S. MDs match residency period compared to how many U.S. DOs match residency period, the numbers are extremely comparable because a majority of the 30% who didn't match MD matched DO.

 

[Just Joshin]

I think that the most telling figure out of the entire article was that 25% of DO applicants withdrew at some point in the process.

It's because DOs are automatically withdrawn if they match DO, which is held before the MD match. And if 25% withdrew from the MD match and 70% matched, doesn't that mean that only 5% of U.S. DOs who applied to the MD match failed to match? Isn't that right on par with U.S. MDs?

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[cubssox2000]

What you fail to realize is that if the DO match comes before the MD match and if those people matched DO, their applications are automatically withdrawn from the MD match. This also explains why 70% of DOs match ACGME (and if I'm not mistaken, that number was higher this past year).

As for DOs only accounting for 6% of ACGME residency slots, you are aware that there are only 28 DO schools, right? You are aware there's a DO match, right? If you were to compare match rates by how many U.S. MDs match residency period compared to how many U.S. DOs match residency period, the numbers are extremely comparable because a majority of the 30% who didn't match MD matched DO.

I am well aware of the fact that there are only 28 DO schools. I am also well aware of the fact that you did not read through the entire discussion. If you did, you would see that we are talking about matching ACGME only. Of course DO students match into AOA programs, thats what they are designed for (hence why MDs can not be accepted by them). Yes, 95% of all students (MD and DO) match, but when you look at ACGME residencies, only 6% (as per the article I posted) are matching over the years - this number is fairly stable. That was the whole point of noting that 70% of DOs are accepted - the fact that despite this number, DOs are only 6% of the residents shows how few are actually applying in comparison.

The intention of this discussion was to say that MDs and DOs DO NOT have an equal chance at ACGME residency spots. If that was true, then, in the case of derm, where 75% of MDs match, the same should hold true for the number of DOs applying. Since 2 DOs were matched, that means that less than one did not match. This is clearly not the truth.

Another thing you don't realize is that DO residency applications are considered "independent". This means that residencies can offer contracts before the allo match day. Using the tactic of "we will offer you this ACGME residency, and you should take it because you can't assume another ACGME program will accept you", many DOs are forced into primary care ACGME programs. THAT is why there are so many enroll in primary care. Considering that there were more than 13,000 DO students in 2006 (probably closer to 15000 now), and only 3000 applied to ACGME programs AND OF THOSE 3000, 700 WITHDREW, clearly that number does not come from the DO match. 70% of THE REMAINING 2300 applicants are accepted. So all of this means that only 20% of DO students are applying to ACGME programs. 70% of those 20% get accepted, and that 70% of 20% accounts for 6% of the total residency spots.

Get it?

 

[cubssox2000]

It's because DOs are automatically withdrawn if they match DO, which is held before the MD match. And if 25% withdrew from the MD match and 70% matched, doesn't that mean that only 5% of U.S. DOs who applied to the MD match failed to match? Isn't that right on par with U.S. MDs?

No, it certainly does not. Because they are applying to ACGME, it is safe to assume they WANT those ACGME spots, not the DO spots. Otherwise there would be no point in applying to both, because they would be forced into the DO spot.

Edit: Looking at the numbers again, it might be 15000 total students, not graduating students (article did not say). If that is the case, then it is possible that nearly all students applied to both MD and DO, and if that is the case, then you may be correct. But nonetheless, my point still stands that DOs are only 6% of the resident population and have a much more difficult time getting into top residencies (partly because of that independent status).

 

[mspeedwagon]

I worked/volunteered at all places. The problem is you are looking up current year... I didn't say that this year there were a ton. When I was at Dana-Farber there were 5 D.O.s (some were fellows... actually, looked back... 3 of them were fellows in the pediatric onc deparrtment (might be more fellows in other departments)... one died and one is still on staff).

MGH had about 12... so that sounds about right.

Stanford has the most. There are close to 100 D.O. physicans (out of about 2000 likely) at Stanford. There are 6 alone in the pediatric oncology department where I worked.

Mass Eye and Ear in 2002-2003 had about 10.

If you compare the number of M.D. grad each year to number D.O. grads... this is a ton. And seeing these names at these hospitals tell you it is not impossible to do well as a D.O. physician. I'm of the mindset that you are best served going to school where you want to practice. You'll at least have friends in the town.

Since I looked it up... the ratio is 5:1 (M.D.: D.O.): The gender and racial distribution of MDs and DOs are similar.[6] There are significantly more MDs than DOs.[7] In 2004, 17,000 students matriculated as first-year students at MD programs, while 3,800 students matriculated at osteopathic programs, a ratio of nearly 5 MD students for every 1 osteopathic student

This is bull. Dana Farber has one osteopathic physician http://physicians.dana-farber.org/directory/profile.asp?dbase=main&setsize=10&keyword=D%2EO%2E&grouptype_typeid=1&display=Y&nxtfmt=pc&pgt=Suzanne+Berlin%2C+D%2EO%2E&gs=pc&pict_id=0000420

At MGH, there are 12 osteopathic physicians in a hospital system of 1868 physicians http://www.mgh.harvard.edu/doctors/search.aspx?st=0&center=doctors&q=DO&x=0&y=0

Mass Eye & Ear and Stanford do not have search options that allow you to look for osteopathic physicians

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

One huge negative... it's the most boring job in the world. I mean, really... after all those years of school... at least pick something relatively challenging. I don't disagree with 3.. and I think 3 is the reason most people go into it.

I don't mean to come off as rude in this post, but why do you think it's the most boring job in the world? Have you practiced as a dermatologist? Have you gone through residency? Or is this view shaped by TV shows, a few hours of shadowing, etc? Just wondering what qualifications you have to make the statements you've been making. Just because you might find something boring doesn't mean others share the same view.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Four dermatologists in the extended family (none blood relation to me). Girlfriend recently did a derm rotation. I've shadowed a dermatologist.
All say "great lifestyle." Not one talks about the excitment of the job. Nowhere near as exciting as say emergency medicine.

I don't mean to come off as rude in this post, but why do you think it's the most boring job in the world? Have you practiced as a dermatologist? Have you gone through residency? Or is this view shaped by TV shows, a few hours of shadowing, etc? Just wondering what qualifications you have to make the statements you've been making. Just because you might find something boring doesn't mean others share the same view.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Four dermatologists in the extended family. Girlfriend recently did a derm rotation. I've shadowed a dermatologist.
All say "great lifestyle." Not one talks about the excitment of the job. Nowhere near as exciting as say emergency medicine.

They say great lifestyle is the primary reason they went into the field? I'd honestly be surprised if that's the case. Did you ever happen ask them what parts of their job they find interesting? I'd be curious to hear their response to that. It seems like you're making generalizations based on, at best, second-hand information. I want to reiterate that just because you might find something uninteresting (and have anecdotes about others who share the same view), it doesn't mean that people in that field are wasting their time (which you seem to be implying) by going into it.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Yes... definitely basing it on second-hand information and am definitely generalizing.

3 out of 4 told me that they went into it because of lifestyle/high pay. Interesting the same 3 out of 4 were female and were more concerned about raising a family and flexibility to work part time. They said it was ideal career for a woman who wanted to raise a family and not worry about being paged in the middle of night. Apparently lots of part-time positions too. I haven't looked for jobs in derm so don't actually know if this is true throughout the country.

1 out of 4 went in because he loved derm. Found skin the coolest thing on the planet. Is fascinated by melanomas, acne, sebacous cysts etc. He went into it because he truly love the variety of things that could happen to skin. Also, admits he thought it would be a better lifestyle than the other thing he found interesting... ob/gyn.

They say great lifestyle is the primary reason they went into the field? I'd honestly be surprised if that's the case. Did you ever happen ask them what parts of their job they find interesting? I'd be curious to hear their response to that. It seems like you're making generalizations based on, at best, second-hand information. I want to reiterate that just because you might find something uninteresting (and have anecdotes about others who share the same view), it doesn't mean that people in that field are wasting their time (which you seem to be implying) by going into it.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Yes... definitely basing it on second-hand information and am definitely generalizing.

3 out of 4 told me that they went into it because of lifestyle/high pay. Interesting the same 3 out of 4 were female and were more concerned about raising a family and flexibility to work part time. They said it was ideal career for a woman who wanted to raise a family and not worry about being paged in the middle of night. Apparently lots of part-time positions.

1 out of 4 went in because he loved derm. Found skin the coolest thing on the planet. Is fascinated by melanomas, acne, sebacous cysts etc. He went into it because he truly love the variety of things that could happen to skin. Also, admits he taught it would be a better lifestyle than the other thing he found interesting... ob/gyn.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.

I can understand the lifestyle bit for women (and men) wanting to raise a family. That's great that the last guy went into it primarily because he was interested in the field. Based on what you wrote, it seems like the lifestyle aspect played a minor role in his decision. I would be surprised if anyone (in any specialty) said lifestyle wasn't a concern at all when they decided on their field.

 

[swamprat]

LOL wow. I remember thinking you were a legit guy when you were applying. Guess not. It's for the best you ended up at a MD school, and not CCOM or wherever else you were considering DO. Seems like it's something that would have bothered you forever. Best of luck.

Why would I not be a legit guy? Because I chose MD over DO? So what? I never have bad mouthed a DO all I did was agree most people including myself choose DO as a backup, for whatever reason. I've said it before, but my internist is a DO in a practice with 3-4 other MDs. I like this guy better, hes a DO, I don't care about his degree I know DOs are just as competent doctors as MDs, but why cut yourself short if you have the option to go MD, even if it is just the smallest possible bump when residency apps come along.

And no it would not have bothered me at all being a DO, hence why I applied. Talk to the *****s who apply both, don't get into any MD and get into a DO to ask the quesrtion, "should I decline my DO acceptance to reapply MD next year? I spoke to one person and they say if I apply again and do so and so, I'm basically golden to get in." Then a year passes and they get rejected. I personally don't see why someone would wait another year just to reapply in hopes of getting an MD. Or why they would even bother applying DO in the first place.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Why would I not be a legit guy? Because I chose MD over DO? So what? I never have bad mouthed a DO all I did was agree most people including myself choose DO as a backup, for whatever reason. I've said it before, but my internist is a DO in a practice with 3-4 other MDs. I like this guy better, hes a DO, I don't care about his degree I know DOs are just as competent doctors as MDs, but why cut yourself short if you have the option to go MD, even if it is just the smallest possible bump when residency apps come along.

I'm just saying ... your attitude has changed a LOT from when I used to read your postings on pre-DO. Choosing MD over DO doesn't affect your character, but acting the way you did before and hearing you now makes me not want to deal with you.

 

[Gabby]

We also need to compensate for the competitiveness of the specialties. A residency is not a residency is not a residency. Most of us would prefer, all other things being equal, to work 50 hours a week making 350,000 gross than 50 hours a week for 200,000 gross.

And? There's no way to tell who got their first-choice specialty so that's not really a good method of arguing your point when it comes to MD vs. DO.

 

[Gabby]

I am well aware of the fact that there are only 28 DO schools. I am also well aware of the fact that you did not read through the entire discussion. If you did, you would see that we are talking about matching ACGME only. Of course DO students match into AOA programs, thats what they are designed for (hence why MDs can not be accepted by them).

In fairness, you did say that you didn't know why so many DOs withdrew their applications from the ACGME match. The poster was pointing out that the reason for that is that they are withdrawn automatically after matching DO.

Yes, 95% of all students (MD and DO) match, but when you look at ACGME residencies, only 6% (as per the article I posted) are matching over the years - this number is fairly stable.

But that doesn't prove anything because you don't know how many DOs who wanted ACGME couldn't get it. All you've done is tell us that DOs don't make up the majority of residency slots in ACGME programs. Big shock!

That was the whole point of noting that 70% of DOs are accepted - the fact that despite this number, DOs are only 6% of the residents shows how few are actually applying in comparison.

I'm really trying to figure out your point and relevancy to this conversation. There are many, many less DOs in the world than MDs. Half of them get DO residencies. It's simple math that the remaining would make up a very small portion of MD residency slots. So what?

The intention of this discussion was to say that MDs and DOs DO NOT have an equal chance at ACGME residency spots.

But you haven't made that argument. All you've done is tell us that 70% of DOs match ACGME and 25% of DOs withdraw from the match. So what? It's not that 25% don't match. It's that they're withdrawn due to matching first in DO.

If that was true, then, in the case of derm, where 75% of MDs match, the same should hold true for the number of DOs applying.

Again, you're throwing out numbers without fully understanding them. Most DOs don't apply ACGME derm. What if only 2 DOs applied to only MD derm? Then that's a 100% match rate for DOs. If 3 people applied and only 2 matched, that makes it 2 out of 3, but because it's only 3 overall, the percentage is lower than 75%.

Another thing you don't realize is that DO residency applications are considered "independent". This means that residencies can offer contracts before the allo match day. Using the tactic of "we will offer you this ACGME residency, and you should take it because you can't assume another ACGME program will accept you", many DOs are forced into primary care ACGME programs.

MDs match outside of the match as well. And I don't buy that they're "forced" into primary care. They don't get offers outside of where they apply. If they applied to primary care, there obviously must be some interest there.

THAT is why there are so many enroll in primary care.

I need a source for that assertion because I don't believe that's the reason there are so many DOs in primary care.

Considering that there were more than 13,000 DO students in 2006 (probably closer to 15000 now), and only 3000 applied to ACGME programs AND OF THOSE 3000, 700 WITHDREW, clearly that number does not come from the DO match. 70% of THE REMAINING 2300 applicants are accepted. So all of this means that only 20% of DO students are applying to ACGME programs. 70% of those 20% get accepted, and that 70% of 20% accounts for 6% of the total residency spots.

Get it?

The 70% is pre-withdrawal.

 

[Gabby]

No, it certainly does not. Because they are applying to ACGME, it is safe to assume they WANT those ACGME spots, not the DO spots. Otherwise there would be no point in applying to both, because they would be forced into the DO spot.

They apply to both, but if they match DO, they are forced out of the MD match. They don't get a say in the matter. Most people apply to both to insure they get a residency in their field either way.

But nonetheless, my point still stands that DOs are only 6% of the resident population

So what?

 

[JaggerPlate]

. Talk to the *****s who apply both, don't get into any MD and get into a DO to ask the quesrtion, "should I decline my DO acceptance to reapply MD next year?

For sure. Listen, I hope I didn't offend you or anything (that wasn't my intention), I was simply surprised by what seemed like a large difference in opinion. I was just a little thrown off by the "DO is a backup, BS about them up and coming, they are what they are - a backup," comment. Personally, I do not feel this way and I think many (not all though) people agree with me.

 

[swamprat]

For sure. Listen, I hope I didn't offend you or anything (that wasn't my intention), I was simply surprised by what seemed like a large difference in opinion. I was just a little thrown off by the "DO is a backup, BS about them up and coming, they are what they are - a backup," comment. Personally, I do not feel this way and I think many (not all though) people agree with me.

Yeah man the way I worded it, I could have been more "gentle." I'm not trying to offend you or anyone else who chose DO over MD. I guess I should learn to stay out of these topics, like most of the people posting in here. For me, DO was a backup even though I really loved CCOM. For you and other people, it may not be. I was really just saying why I think people choose it as a backup and I regret sounding like an @ss, sorry. Go relax, boston med is on soon should be interesting hopefully we can see some DOs represent

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yeah man the way I worded it, I could have been more "gentle." I'm not trying to offend you or anyone else who chose DO over MD. I guess I should learn to stay out of these topics, like most of the people posting in here. For me, DO was a backup even though I really loved CCOM. For you and other people, it may not be. I was really just saying why I think people choose it as a backup and I regret sounding like an @ss, sorry. Go relax, boston med is on soon should be interesting hopefully we can see some DOs represent

Sounds good.

 

[cubssox2000]

In fairness, you did say that you didn't know why so many DOs withdrew their applications from the ACGME match. The poster was pointing out that the reason for that is that they are withdrawn automatically after matching DO.

I agree, and so I amended my statement.

But that doesn't prove anything because you don't know how many DOs who wanted ACGME couldn't get it. All you've done is tell us that DOs don't make up the majority of residency slots in ACGME programs. Big shock!

I'm really trying to figure out your point and relevancy to this conversation. There are many, many less DOs in the world than MDs. Half of them get DO residencies. It's simple math that the remaining would make up a very small portion of MD residency slots. So what?

The point I was trying to make was as a refute to jaggers comment that MD and DOs have an equal chance when applying to any ACGME programs. If you read through the article (and not just the one example that I made from derm), it does show that DOs are getting accepted, but the overwhelming majority are applying to primary care fields. The point was that they are (wrongly) not considered equal.

But you haven't made that argument. All you've done is tell us that 70% of DOs match ACGME and 25% of DOs withdraw from the match. So what? It's not that 25% don't match. It's that they're withdrawn due to matching first in DO.

The point was that 70% of those that DO NOT withdraw are matching. There were 3000 applicants in the pool last year, of which more than 700 withdrew (as I conceded, probably because of the DO match). Of the remaining 2300, only 70% of those are matching (slightly over 1400). This is where the debate was going on. the missing 30% from the 2300 who did not withdraw is what is being considered "unequal".

Again, you're throwing out numbers without fully understanding them. Most DOs don't apply ACGME derm. What if only 2 DOs applied to only MD derm? Then that's a 100% match rate for DOs. If 3 people applied and only 2 matched, that makes it 2 out of 3, but because it's only 3 overall, the percentage is lower than 75%.

See an earlier post where I commented on how I can't possibly know how many applied. What I do know is that in previous years, there were 0 DOs accepted to derm (see the chart). I also know that 2 people that were accepted to derm represent 0.001% of the total DOs matched. This shows that DO matches are coming in internal med (20.2%), family medicine (18.7%) and pediatrics (13.9%). It is very telling where they are applying and matching, even if we don't know how many applied. As I said, I was only using derm because it was the example that was being used before.

Lastly, the charts show that independent applicants that applied had a 52.2% unmatched rate, as opposed to MDs at 6.8%. Now, not all IAs are DOs, but in general it means that those applying through that process only have a 50% chance of getting matched.

MDs match outside of the match as well. And I don't buy that they're "forced" into primary care. They don't get offers outside of where they apply. If they applied to primary care, there obviously must be some interest there.

The problem with this is that many people do apply to more than one residency. So to hedge bets, some will apply to both a high competition residency and a low competition one, to make sure that they match. If that is the case, then it can be very difficult for a DO who applied to turn down a guaranteed offer from the primary care spot for the 50/50 chance of getting into the higher competition residency.

The 70% is pre-withdrawal.

No, its post-withdrawal. See table 4.


Look, its pretty clear to me that you really want to argue the position that MD=DO, and I have to reiterate that I agree with that position. Don't come ripping my head off when I present the facts and give you my source, that says that 30% of DOs do not match. (And yes, that is completely not matched, because as stated before, the DO match is before MD, so those are counted in the withdrawals.)

Edit: Because I don't think people are actually going to check my link and read through it, here is the actual chart. It shows that 30% of applicants withdraw before the match, 70% get matched and that 30% are unmatched.

Students/Graduates of Osteopathic Medical Schools

No. %
Active Applicants 2045 100
Matched PGY-1 1444 70.6
Unmatched PGY-1 601 29.4
Withdrew 767 25.9
No Rank List 153 5.2
Total 2965 100

 

[Gabby]

The point I was trying to make was as a refute to jaggers comment that MD and DOs have an equal chance when applying to any ACGME programs. If you read through the article (and not just the one example that I made from derm), it does show that DOs are getting accepted, but the overwhelming majority are applying to primary care fields. The point was that they are (wrongly) not considered equal.

Your point is inaccurate. Once again, since you have no idea how many WANTED primary care, you have no way of knowing that they aren't being considered equal. That's all conjecture on your part.

There were 3000 applicants in the pool last year, of which more than 700 withdrew (as I conceded, probably because of the DO match). Of the remaining 2300, only 70% of those are matching (slightly over 1400). This is where the debate was going on. the missing 30% from the 2300 who did not withdraw is what is being considered "unequal".

There were 2,000 active applicants, not 2,300. Of those, 600 of them didn't match.

What I do know is that in previous years, there were 0 DOs accepted to derm (see the chart).

In previous how many years? Two years? Three years? Twenty years? That makes a difference. And if two DOs were accepted to ACGME derm this year, then it's trending positively for DOs in the MD world, regardless of years past.

I also know that 2 people that were accepted to derm represent 0.001% of the total DOs matched. This shows that DO matches are coming in internal med (20.2%), family medicine (18.7%) and pediatrics (13.9%). It is very telling where they are applying and matching, even if we don't know how many applied.

They're also matching in anesthesiology, PMR, neurosurgery, general surgery, and rads. In other words, they CAN match into any specialty out there. Do most choose to apply to those specialties? Probably not (or if they do, they choose to go with the DO match). Why? There are many reasons. One is that DO schools tend to have a greater number of non-traditional students with spouses and families. They're not usually as ambitious as the single 22-year-olds who want to do research, publish, and ace every exam in med school. Another reason is that many non-traditionals go into medicine with hopes of serving in primary care because of personal experiences. I haven't seen too many non-trads gunning for neurosurg, for example. Finally, most DO schools aren't research powerhouses, so there is self-selection involved when it comes time to apply for residency. None of these point to DOs and MDs not being considered equal by residency directors, but rather that the population pools between DOs and MDs are different. If you took an MD and a DO and made all things equal -- evals, grades, scores -- and had them gunning for the same residency, you have no idea who would get it, assuming they both went to the interview. You can guess that the PD would favor the MD, but I doubt that would always be the case. Two DOs matched allo derm. Do you really believe there weren't comparable MDs who applied for those two spots? Of course there were. But something tipped the scales in the DOs favor.

Lastly, the charts show that independent applicants that applied had a 52.2% unmatched rate, as opposed to MDs at 6.8%. Now, not all IAs are DOs, but in general it means that those applying through that process only have a 50% chance of getting matched.

That percentage is brought down because of IMGs and FMGs. You can't use that to figure out how successful a DO will be in an MD match.

The problem with this is that many people do apply to more than one residency. So to hedge bets, some will apply to both a high competition residency and a low competition one, to make sure that they match.

In all my years as a pre-med, applicant, and med student, I've run into one person who applied to a highly competitive specialty and one that isn't as highly competitive. I don't think that's the norm. Most people apply to what they want/think they can get and end up having to scramble for what's left if they don't get it.

If that is the case, then it can be very difficult for a DO who applied to turn down a guaranteed offer from the primary care spot for the 50/50 chance of getting into the higher competition residency.

Yet, many do it. Not all DOs take pre-match offers. And the ones that do, aren't counted in the 70% you're citing so that number should be higher, shouldn't it?

Look, its pretty clear to me that you really want to argue the position that MD=DO,

The only position I want to argue is one with facts. Your post was filled with conjecture that you were trying to pass off as fact which is why I stepped in.

Don't come ripping my head off when I present the facts and give you my source, that says that 30% of DOs do not match.

No one ripped your head off. We replied to your interpretation of the data.

(And yes, that is completely not matched, because as stated before, the DO match is before MD, so those are counted in the withdrawals.)

As you said, some DOs take pre-match offers. How many of the 30% got pre-match offers and weren't counted in the match?

 

[DrDrummer]

Another piece of perspective here ... spend like two hours in any ER in the country and tell me how high the average person's respect is for doctors in general (MD or DO). I think you'll find that most people look at doctors as overpaid, lawsuit targets who aren't as smart as their WebMD iphone app.

That's hilarious. I'm going to remember that and use it repeatedly.

 

[mynamehere]

allopathic ftw

 

[Mute98]

.

 

[cubssox2000]

They're also matching in anesthesiology, PMR, neurosurgery, general surgery, and rads. In other words, they CAN match into any specialty out there. Do most choose to apply to those specialties? Probably not (or if they do, they choose to go with the DO match). Why? There are many reasons. One is that DO schools tend to have a greater number of non-traditional students with spouses and families. They're not usually as ambitious as the single 22-year-olds who want to do research, publish, and ace every exam in med school. Another reason is that many non-traditionals go into medicine with hopes of serving in primary care because of personal experiences. I haven't seen too many non-trads gunning for neurosurg, for example. Finally, most DO schools aren't research powerhouses, so there is self-selection involved when it comes time to apply for residency. None of these point to DOs and MDs not being considered equal by residency directors, but rather that the population pools between DOs and MDs are different. If you took an MD and a DO and made all things equal -- evals, grades, scores -- and had them gunning for the same residency, you have no idea who would get it, assuming they both went to the interview. You can guess that the PD would favor the MD, but I doubt that would always be the case. Two DOs matched allo derm. Do you really believe there weren't comparable MDs who applied for those two spots? Of course there were. But something tipped the scales in the DOs favor.

This is what I was saying in all of my earlier posts. I never said that DOs CAN"T get into a specialty. Anyone who takes step 1 CAN match into an ACGME program.