Should I decline this interview, without having an MD acceptance yet?

[CyrusHabs7695]

As of right now Im accepted to a top-tier D.O. school that Id be very happy attending in the fall, while also on the WL at 2 MD schools and waiting to hear a decision post-interview from another. I have an interview scheduled at GW in the future and am not sure if I should go.

Obviously its well know GW has a very high tuition on top of a very high cost of living. Assuming I get no merit-based or need-based scholarship money, the cost of attendance will probably be around 85-90k.

Id like to get anyones opinion on whether it is worth going to an MD school and be close to if not over 500k in debt, or go to the way more affordable DO school.

As of right now im interested in radiology, some surgical fields, anesthesiology, cardiology maybe...as you can see I don't really know 100%. Im aware that theres no guarantee I get into GW after the interview, but I don't want to waste the money or the interview slot to go to D.C. knowing im not going to attend.

Everyones opinion is welcome and if I didn't explain my situation very well, feel free to ask questions.

Thank you, its greatly appreciated.

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[RNthenDoc]

I would go to the interview if it was me!

I completed 6 interviews this cycle and I felt like I did better on the last few.

If nothing else it will be good practice for match interviews. Just my opinion, though!

Some of those surgical fields would certainly be more doable as an MD, especially if you’re talking neurosurg or urology etc! Something to weigh out.

 

[E.Hemingway]

If you don’t want to go there, don’t waste your time and money (and GW’s) interviewing there.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

Im more asking towards the financial end, is it worth to be twice as much is debt in order to get an MD over a DO

 

[Lawpy]

Im more asking towards the financial end, is it worth to be twice as much is debt in order to get an MD over a DO

Yep it is.

 

[Osminog]

Im more asking towards the financial end, is it worth to be twice as much is debt in order to get an MD over a DO

What specialties are you looking at?

EDIT: Reading comp fail on my part. Yeah, go MD.

 

[Spectar]

What specialties are you looking at?

..... as they said in the original post....

As of right now im interested in radiology, some surgical fields, anesthesiology, cardiology maybe...as you can see I don't really know 100%.

Thank you, its greatly appreciated.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

What specialties are you looking at?

As of right now I don't have my mind set. I think some of the surgical specialties are fascinating, radiology, gas, cards maybe. Im just under the impression that if I don't end up matching into a competitive specialty with 500k in debt, it will be a tough hole to get out of

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

Yep it is.

Do you mind elaborating a little bit, Id like to hear your opinion

 

[Lawpy]

Do you mind elaborating a little bit, Id like to hear your opinion

There are a lot of problems with the DO route. The major issue is DO degree inherently eliminates residency and specialty options before you even start school. Specialties like neurosurg, ENT, derm, ortho etc become significantly harder to impossible to match as a DO and this worsens due to the ACGME-AOA merger.

Other issues include COMLEX (which according to DO students have poorly written questions), weaker quality of clinical rotations, graded preclinicals (and thus requiring you to essentially honor nearly everything if you are thinking about matching somewhere competitive), fewer research opportunities, fewer mentoring and networking opportunities etc.

SDN wisdom says to go into medical school with an open mind and not to think about specialties until after third year. Unfortunately, for those going to DO school, the slogan is “be happy with primary care since it’s most likely what you will get”, which is fine but requires you to go into a field when you want to keep your options open.

So yes, in my opinion, it is worth the added debt to go into more expensive MD option. That said, if you get into a cheaper MD school, for sure go there.

 

[21Rush12]

It will be manageable debt regardless of the amount if you do income driven repayment. In the long run it will work out, and having the doors open to you to pursue what you want is more important in my opinion.

Good luck to you, GO HABS GO

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

There are a lot of problems with the DO route. The major issue is DO degree inherently eliminates residency and specialty options before you even start school. Specialties like neurosurg, ENT, derm, ortho etc become significantly harder to impossible to match as a DO and this worsens due to the ACGME-AOA merger.

Other issues include COMLEX (which according to DO students have poorly written questions), weaker quality of clinical rotations, graded preclinicals (and thus requiring you to essentially honor nearly everything if you are thinking about matching somewhere competitive), fewer research opportunities, fewer mentoring and networking opportunities etc.

SDN wisdom says to go into medical school with an open mind and not to think about specialties until after third year. Unfortunately, for those going to DO school, the slogan is “be happy with primary care since it’s most likely what you will get”, which is fine but requires you to go into a field when you want to keep your options open.

So yes, in my opinion, it is worth the added debt to go into more expensive MD option. That said, if you get into a cheaper MD school, for sure go there.

Do you think your chances of matching radiology in the southwest (AZ, NV, TX, CA) are significantly lowered going DO?

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

It will be manageable debt regardless of the amount if you do income driven repayment. In the long run it will work out, and having the doors open to you to pursue what you want is more important in my opinion.

Good luck to you, GO HABS GO

Thanks for sharing! And maybe next year haha

 

[ciestar]

2016 NRMP data shows that 112 DO’s matched into Diagnostic Radiology, compared to >1100 MD counterparts.

Take the data as you will, but if you search for NRMP match data, you’ll see it by the numbers

 

[libertyyne]

It is difficult , not impossible to match into Surgery with a DO. It gets harder and harder with some sub specialties. I dont think you should be worrying about the financial aid aspect just yet, they might offer you a scholarship. The cost of a interviewing is a drop in the bucket compared to total medical education , so do it. And re-evaluate once you have all the admission decisions.

 

[el_duderino]

If you got into GW, would you turn it down in favor of a DO school?

If you do, that would be a terrible decision.

Plan accordingly.

 

[LeFemmeDeArgent]

2016 NRMP data shows that 112 DO’s matched into Diagnostic Radiology, compared to >1100 MD counterparts.

Take the data as you will, but if you search for NRMP match data, you’ll see it by the numbers

DOs should match approximately 275 into Diagnostic Radiology if the number of MD students compared to DO students (roughly 4:1) is taken into account. Not as bad of an outlook relative to your numbers but certainly still low.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

If you got into GW, would you turn it down in favor of a DO school?

If you do, that would be a terrible decision.

Plan accordingly.

Thats the point of my question, is it worth the significant difference in tuition and living to attend GW over a DO?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[ciestar]

DOs should match approximately 275 into Diagnostic Radiology if the number of MD students compared to DO students (roughly 4:1) is taken into account. Not as bad of an outlook relative to your numbers but certainly still low.

Point i was trying to make lol. It is harder as a DO. I posted raw numbers from the 2016 match.

 

[el_duderino]

Thats the point of my question, is it worth the significant difference in tuition and living to attend GW over a DO?

Yes. It's not even close.

 

[raiderette]

You can always bring down your COA with roommates, cooking at home and limiting expenses such as cars. I would go, at least to see if you like the school.

 

[NeuroSoph75]

I interviewed at GW and one of the students told me that she lives in Maryland for a fraction of the price that her classmates pay to live in DC close to the school. This means having a long commute on the metro, but if you are productive and use that time to study it might be worth it to keep COL down. I think she was in her second year and it was working well for her

 

[Goro]

For those of us laymen at this, and please don't pester poor Homeskool either, can someone give me a rough idea as how how long it would take to pay off a debt of $500K with the median salary of of, say a general surgeon, vs a $250K debt on the median salary of an IM doc? You pick the subspecialty if desired. Let's assume both doctors live in St Louis.

 

[libertyyne]

For those of us laymen at this, and please don't pester poor Homeskool either, can someone give me a rough idea as how how long it would take to pay off a debt of $500K with the median salary of of, say a general surgeon, vs a $250K debt on the median salary of an IM doc? You pick the subspecialty if desired. Let's assume both doctors live in St Louis.

There are lots of variables. How long is the residency, is a fellowship involved, academic or private practice, Midwest or coast , Contributing large chunks in residency or waiting for that NPSLF to kick in, are you paying the minimum ? Its kinda difficult to say.

 

[Med Ed]

As of right now Im accepted to a top-tier D.O. school that Id be very happy attending in the fall, while also on the WL at 2 MD schools and waiting to hear a decision post-interview from another. I have an interview scheduled at GW in the future and am not sure if I should go.

Obviously its well know GW has a very high tuition on top of a very high cost of living. Assuming I get no merit-based or need-based scholarship money, the cost of attendance will probably be around 85-90k.

Id like to get anyones opinion on whether it is worth going to an MD school and be close to if not over 500k in debt, or go to the way more affordable DO school.

As of right now im interested in radiology, some surgical fields, anesthesiology, cardiology maybe...as you can see I don't really know 100%. Im aware that theres no guarantee I get into GW after the interview, but I don't want to waste the money or the interview slot to go to D.C. knowing im not going to attend.

Everyones opinion is welcome and if I didn't explain my situation very well, feel free to ask questions.

Thank you, its greatly appreciated.

You should go to GW, see what they have to say, and see what happens with the interview. You may walk out feeling perfectly happy going DO. You may walk out feeling convinced that GW is worth the extra money. You may get rejected and have no choice to make.

 

[Goro]

There are lots of variables. How long is the residency, is a fellowship involved, academic or private practice, Midwest or coast , Contributing large chunks in residency or waiting for that NPSLF to kick in, are you paying the minimum ? Its kinda difficult to say.

Both are starting practice now in St Louis. They're next door neighbors to each other.

Each has a debt of the numbers I posited in my post. Their interest rates are the same.

 

[calivianya]

For those of us laymen at this, and please don't pester poor Homeskool either, can someone give me a rough idea as how how long it would take to pay off a debt of $500K with the median salary of of, say a general surgeon, vs a $250K debt on the median salary of an IM doc? You pick the subspecialty if desired. Let's assume both doctors live in St Louis.

I'll take a stab at this. I found this website. I am using the data for private practice, 1-2 years in specialty, median because we're mostly talking about the time they're new docs, but they won't be brand spanking new for long. No subspecialties.

Internist: $166.1k
General surgeon: $270.1k

No idea about the COL in St. Louis, but I'm assuming it's higher because it'a a large city. Let's say for the sake of argument that both docs choose to live modestly until their loans are paid off, have no children, and pay off loans VERY aggressively - we'll say ~$4k/month living expenses. We'll also say they lose ~35% of their income to taxes. We'll also assume the 250k and 500k are the total amount paid on the loans, regardless of when/how interest accrues, and I'm assuming inconsequential and/or similar percentage changes to wages/living expenses. No payment during residency.

Internist: ($166.1k x 0.65) - (4 x 12) = ~$60k per year to put on loans
$250k/$60k = ~4.2 years

General surgeon: ($270.1k x 0.65) - (4 x 12) = ~$127k per year to put on loans
$500k/$127k = ~3.93 years

Honestly, not that much of a time difference, really... but it's going to be a hell of a lot of difference at the five year mark, by which time both of those guys have paid off their loans and one makes >$100k more than the other. None of this means much, considering some general surgeons graduate with $250k debts and some internists graduate with $500k debts.

 

[RockMcat520]

You always have to assume that you are not getting any scholarships at either schools (MD or DO) then ask yourself, would you attend GW over a DO school regardless of the cost? I don’t think anyone will answer this question for you, it’s a decision that you gotta make. Its you life, and will def be your future.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

Thats the point of my question, is it worth the significant difference in tuition and living to attend GW over a DO?

OP take the following into consideration. While the burden of student loan debt may be the current concern for you, most student debt is repaid within 10-15 years (most grads due a standard 10 year repayment, some do 20 year). If you start med school at 24 (ave. matriculant age), you will be repaid probably around 45-47. This means you have 20 more years of work likely ahead of you.

According to Medscape's 2017 Physician Compensation report, there is a $100K difference between the average Family physician and Specialty physician. This becomes even higher when you take each speciality individually - Gen Surg/Anesthe. to Primary Care is ~$150K. This means that all things being equal, after loan repayment, you have an increased lifetime earning potential of over $2 Million more over a 20 year period. Even with interest, the difference in student loan debt is only 10% of that total.

As other posters have commented, the difficulty of career selection is more difficult for DO. According to the AAMC's 2016 Physician Specialty report (link), DOs among all specialties except for EM, FM, and PM&R account for less than 10% of physicians in that field. In fact, FM DOs account for ~30% of all actively practicing DOs. Surgeons account for less than 2% of practicing DOs.

So there are factors to consider. But in the grand scheme, taking the time and money to interview at GW seems to be more of a safe/smart investment in your future than dismissing it. Keep your options open and good luck.

 

[lovehate]

I would go. All you would lose is the plane ticket. Give it a shot, you might like the school. Each interview improves your interviewing skills.

 

[LizzyM]

I think what is in play here is that while you may have a large debt load graduating from MD school, you may also have a higher likelihood of matching into a specialty that commands a larger salary when compared to the specialties typical of DOs.

Don't be afraid of debt if you are gunning for specialties that pay well.

As mentioned earlier, COA can be an over-estimate if you live well within your means as a student.

 

[Kingsmen2018]

Please go. Yes DO's are physicians and what not but do whatever u can to get an MD

 

[ortnakas]

I’m a fourth year at a DO school. I’m happy with my almost-degree and my choice. Matching would certainly be a simpler process with an MD, especially for the more competitive and lucrative specialties; whether that’s worth double the debt is up to you. I’d go to the interview, because having options is nice and you might as well investigate all the opportunities that you might have.

 

[el_duderino]

I’m a fourth year at a DO school. I’m happy with my almost-degree and my choice. Matching would certainly be a simpler process with an MD, especially for the more competitive and lucrative specialties; whether that’s worth double the debt is up to you. I’d go to the interview, because having options is nice and you might as well investigate all the opportunities that you might have.

What are you matching into?

 

[Dwight Snoot]

Definitely go to the interview. As stated many times above, getting into a solid MD school like GW will greatly increase your chances of getting into a more competitive (and often higher paying) specialty that a DO school. You are going to have crazy amounts of debt regardless.