Smoke & Mirrors at Idaho Com

[Mass Effect]

I am telling you what has been told to my face from several PDs and residents/fellows involved in resident selection in ultra competitive specialties at several top hospitals. I have several friends in several specialties who are involved in this process. I trust their judgment more than SDN.

*I* am involved in this process. Stop lecturing to people who've been through it.

Of course. On top of that, heavy connections and networking to get in (networking/connections - same thing). I'm not talking about connections in the form of being the son of the PD. I'm talking about influential faculty vouching for you

Yeah, welcome to life. That happens with every single medical student (unless they're at one of the Ivys) when it comes to the top-ranked hospitals in the match. Shocker.

The problem with a lot of people here is that they've never spoken to a PD in any field, let alone at top programs in ultra competitive specialties. I have. I worked closely with faculty involved in this process. But, SDN will keep talking about these anecdotal stories and point to some guy that knew some guy in the residency forums who matched in some program that was awesome. Good for him. You don't know the full story, though.

You've worked closely with faculty on the match? A person who isn't even a med student yet has been involved in residency interviews and rank meetings?

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[sab3156]

Maybe but from my own anecdotal experience of applying this cycle, I interviewed to one top program (that has never taken any DOs in their program) without having any connection with them. I am not even from the same coast.

What specialty and program?

 

[68PGunner]

What specialty?

IM. But don’t get your hope up bc ninjaman has 260+ on both steps, top 5% of his class, and multiple pubs.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Back to ICOM, based on the links I posted, are they fulfilling the promises they made about expanding residencies and stuff in the region? Or should people still be hesitant on attending there as the first class? I’m not in school yet either, so I am not super knowledgeable in how it all works yet.

 

[Robotfishbrain]

Any DO matching into a competitive specialty at a top tier program is doing it through massive networking and massive connections. There is simply no other way. You can believe what you want and have optimistic hopes, but please don't paint an unrealistic picture for people who are deciding between MD and DO schools. You are quite possibly ruining their future.

Please read my post --I said it was exception to the rule.

It seems like you're just trying to pick fights on this thread dude. I can't read your posts. I've talked to PDs as well and I received very different information than you. Take it for what it is.

 

[kelminak]

Back to ICOM, based on the links I posted, are they fulfilling the promises they made about expanding residencies and stuff in the region? Or should people still be hesitant on attending there as the first class? I’m not in school yet either, so I am not super knowledgeable in how it all works yet.

As someone previously linked, lots of new schools have hiccups like this that have to get fixed, but if you were accepted here and no where else, I'd absolutely take the seat. A seat in hand is better than two in the bush. I wouldn't prioritize it over an established school acceptance.

 

[hallowmann]

Isnt this exactly what you are doing in your posts...?

But they got their anecdotal info from "elites" in the field! Therefore its different.

Just ignore it. They're talking from a pretty clear lack of experience.

 

[zero0]

Would you like me to tell you the exact CVs of some of these “super DO matches?” SDN likes to spout out how any DO that matches a competitive specialty at a good program must be the PD’s offspring and have a 270, and I know for a fact that isn’t true. I literally know the CV of more than a handful of those matches and none of them had any sort of “connections.” I’ll give you the networking but that’s important in any field at any level.

"shrug* I've just had the complete opposite experience

 

[BorntobeDO?]

As someone previously linked, lots of new schools have hiccups like this that have to get fixed, but if you were accepted here and no where else, I'd absolutely take the seat. A seat in hand is better than two in the bush. I wouldn't prioritize it over an established school acceptance.

This kind of thinking keeps DO schools salivating at the thought of getting more 'seats.' As P.T. Barnum says, theres a sucker born every minute.

 

[kelminak]

This kind of thinking keeps DO schools salivating at the thought of getting more 'seats.' As P.T. Barnum says, theres a sucker born every minute.

Are you telling me if you were in a position where literally your only acceptance was ICOM, you'd say no thanks and try again another year? I'm not suggesting it's an optimal choice, but it'll be better than not being a physician.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Are you telling me if you were in a position where literally your only acceptance was ICOM, you'd say no thanks and try again another year? I'm not suggesting it's an optimal choice, but it'll be better than not being a physician.

No, I simply would never apply in the first place.

 

[kelminak]

No, I simply would never apply in the first place.

If you're on the low end of the competitive pole, you wouldn't have room to be picky on where you're accepted.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

If you're on the low end of the competitive pole, you wouldn't have room to be picky on where you're accepted.

Knowing what I do now, I am not certain I would goto my school again, much less one of these new degree mills. I absolutely would dump an acceptance from a brand new COM. I like the location of ICOM (Idaho), but still there are so many limitations that there is no way I would go.

edit: There is only one way I would tell someone to goto ICOM, and that is if they are completely okay with doing not only their rotations and schooling in the middle of nowhere at small <100 bed hospitals, but their residency also in community IM/FM at similar sized places sponsored by ICOM.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Knowing what I do now, I am not certain I would goto my school again, much less one of these new degree mills. I absolutely would dump an acceptance from a brand new COM. I like the location of ICOM (Idaho), but still there is so much limitations there is no way I would go.

Yep, I would go to the school I am at again but I probably would seriously limit my application list even more than I did. It’s hard when you’re a premed with rose glasses on but being on this side of the fence I can honestly say that people need to give serious thought to their school choices and that enhancing your app and reapplying a year later is definitely a much better long term option than going to some of these new (or even some of the established) DO schools.

 

[kelminak]

Knowing what I do now, I am not certain I would goto my school again, much less one of these new degree mills. I absolutely would dump an acceptance from a brand new COM. I like the location of ICOM (Idaho), but still there are so many limitations that there is no way I would go.

edit: There is only one way I would tell someone to goto ICOM, and that is if they are completely okay with doing not only their rotations and schooling in the middle of nowhere at small <100 bed hospitals, but their residency also in community IM/FM at similar sized places sponsored by ICOM.

I think your edit is basically the point that I'm getting at. If you have a pretty low-tier application and you'd be thankful to be a physician in any capacity, it'd be better than not getting in. If it's simply a matter of taking some more classes to beef up your application, then yeah I wouldn't recommend it either. Especially with the AACOMAS changes, I know that 4 people from my post-bacc at VCOM that didn't make the automatic acceptance to VCOM have interviews at ICOM. Pretty much the people that should be applying to ICOM at that point.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I think your edit is basically the point that I'm getting at. If you have a pretty low-tier application and you'd be thankful to be a physician in any capacity, it'd be better than not getting in. If it's simply a matter of taking some more classes to beef up your application, then yeah I wouldn't recommend it either. Especially with the AACOMAS changes, I know that 4 people from my post-bacc at VCOM that didn't make the automatic acceptance to VCOM have interviews at ICOM. Pretty much the people that should be applying to ICOM at that point.

I don't think most people who get in med school will be happy to be a 'physician in any capacity' tho. And that is my main point. Premeds say they are just happy to get in and be a doctor at all when they are premeds. I think the reality is usually different once they get in. People want to pick their specialty, and most students do not have enough access to medicine before med school to do that. What happens to these kids when they have a great surgery rotation, love it, but basically don't have the ability to match it?

Its one of the reasons the Caribbean was always completely off the table for me. I don't want to be at a place where an awesome match is when 1 person from a 300+ class gets General Surgery and another one gets Anesthesia while everyone else ends up in FM, IM, Path and Peds.

But funnily enough, even as I am typing this I know most premeds will never read it, and most who do will ignore it, thinking they will be the 20% or 5% or w/e that has an awesome match with a 250 on Step 1 despite poor performance on prior standardized exams. These are the people I am trying to convince not to go. Don't lie to yourself and say you will be happy with primary care as your only option if your not sure. If you 'want to keep your options open' then you need to be very careful about the DO school you select. Don't go to ICOM and just 'see what happens.' I will tell you ahead of time, 80% of you (those that actually make it to graduation) will end up in IM and FM in mostly community programs.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I don't think most people who get in med school will be happy to be a 'physician in any capacity' tho. And that is my main point. Premeds say they are just happy to get in and be a doctor at all when they are premeds. I think the reality is usually different once they get in. People want to pick their specialty, and most students do not have enough access to medicine before med school to do that. What happens to these kids when they have a great surgery rotation, love it, but basically don't have the ability to match it?

This x1000. This is exactly what happens with the majority of low stat pre-meds, and then reality sets in when they realize that they really will be doing FM because it turns out that their school is no residency connections outside of PC even if they overcome their poor academic history to somehow do above average in medical school. Every pre-med before they apply needs to look themselves in the mirror and ask themselves “if today I was told that I will only end up in FM if I go to medical school would I still go?” And if the honest answer isn’t “yes” then they should think long and hard about applying to schools like ICOM.

 

[kelminak]

@BorntobeDO? @AnatomyGrey12 I think you both bring valid points. It really just comes down to reaping what you sow, but it's hard to truly demonstrate the gravity of a decision like locking yourself into community primary care when you can't see the other side of so many other specialties. These people probably should be thankful they got into med school and became a physician in the first place, but when you get a taste of what else is out there and you can't realistically achieve it, that would indeed be disheartening.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

As someone previously linked, lots of new schools have hiccups like this that have to get fixed, but if you were accepted here and no where else, I'd absolutely take the seat. A seat in hand is better than two in the bush. I wouldn't prioritize it over an established school acceptance.

Past experience with new schools doesn't equate future performance. The basis being that we've always had surplus of residencies relative to graduates. We soon will have surplus of graduates and a growth US physician salary/ROTW physician salary ratio.

If you have a shortage of residencies, I suspect new schools are the ones most likely to have the most unemployed graduates. Those people will have 400k+ nonbankruptable debt and a degree that makes you basically unemployable outside of medicine.

 

[IslandStyle808]

This x1000. This is exactly what happens with the majority of low stat pre-meds, and then reality sets in when they realize that they really will be doing FM because it turns out that their school is no residency connections outside of PC even if they overcome their poor academic history to somehow do above average in medical school. Every pre-med before they apply needs to look themselves in the mirror and ask themselves “if today I was told that I will only end up in FM if I go to medical school would I still go?” And if the honest answer isn’t “yes” then they should think long and hard about applying to schools like ICOM.

A friend/classmate of mine almost literally said the same thing to me. And he is one of the top students in our school.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I don't think most people who get in med school will be happy to be a 'physician in any capacity' tho. And that is my main point. Premeds say they are just happy to get in and be a doctor at all when they are premeds. I think the reality is usually different once they get in. People want to pick their specialty, and most students do not have enough access to medicine before med school to do that. What happens to these kids when they have a great surgery rotation, love it, but basically don't have the ability to match it?

Its one of the reasons the Caribbean was always completely off the table for me. I don't want to be at a place where an awesome match is when 1 person from a 300+ class gets General Surgery and another one gets Anesthesia while everyone else ends up in FM, IM, Path and Peds.

But funnily enough, even as I am typing this I know most premeds will never read it, and most who do will ignore it, thinking they will be the 20% or 5% or w/e that has an awesome match with a 250 on Step 1 despite poor performance on prior standardized exams. These are the people I am trying to convince not to go. Don't lie to yourself and say you will be happy with primary care as your only option if your not sure. If you 'want to keep your options open' then you need to be very careful about the DO school you select. Don't go to ICOM and just 'see what happens.' I will tell you ahead of time, 80% of you (those that actually make it to graduation) will end up in IM and FM in mostly community programs.

I remember members in the past telling pre-med students to worry about become a doctor first. Now I don't see those words being thrown around nearly as much. And I think this change in attitude is due to the competitive nature of the process today.

 

[ProfAnon]

This x1000. This is exactly what happens with the majority of low stat pre-meds, and then reality sets in when they realize that they really will be doing FM because it turns out that their school is no residency connections outside of PC even if they overcome their poor academic history to somehow do above average in medical school. Every pre-med before they apply needs to look themselves in the mirror and ask themselves “if today I was told that I will only end up in FM if I go to medical school would I still go?” And if the honest answer isn’t “yes” then they should think long and hard about applying to schools like ICOM.

Honestly, you can substitute ANY osteopathic medical school for "ICOM" in that last statement. The difference between the "best" osteopathic medical schools in the country and the "worst" or newest is far smaller than SDN makes it seem. Just off the top of my head, CUSOM just graduated their first class and had just over 50% go into primary care, were as KCUMB (touted by many as one of the best) had 65% go into primary care. In reality, any DO school is much closer to any other DO school than it is to any MD school in terms of ability to match outside of primary care.

 

[Goro]

Are you telling me if you were in a position where literally your only acceptance was ICOM, you'd say no thanks and try again another year? I'm not suggesting it's an optimal choice, but it'll be better than not being a physician.

Kelmink, a seat in med school means nothing if you can't match. And the way both MD and DO schools are expanding/opening, that choke point in residency is going to come sooner than you think. While I don't believe that the sky is falling, there are valid concerns in this thread.

 

[68PGunner]

Choke point will be a real possibility in about 6-8 years, not decades.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

Choke point will be a real possibility in about 6-8 years, not decades.

In fairness, we could see real Congressional action on this issue, especially as the obesity crisis worsens and the median age of the population rises. I mean more supply would do more to lower costs than yet another healthcare subsidy.

And we're talking about going from basically 100% matching to 97% matching. I agree its a crisis for the 3% who have the degree and no residency, but its not going to go to the same ridiculous scramble that premed is.

 

[68PGunner]

In fairness, we could see real Congressional action on this issue, especially as the obesity crisis worsens and the median age of the population rises.

I mean more supply would do more to lower costs than yet another healthcare subsidy.

I'm not a fan of more residency spots or supply of docs in order to keep physician wages low while medical tuition is skyrocket on an annual basis. They need to do something about the rising tuition first.

 

[Skiiiiiing]

I'm not a fan of more residency spots or supply of docs in order to keep physician wages low while medical tuition is skyrocket on an annual basis. They need to do something about the rising tuition first.

You can't lament residency shortages and then also worry about too many doctors. Pick one reality or the other, not invent one wherein there are both too many doctors and too few.

 

[68PGunner]

You can't lament residency shortages and then also worry about too many doctors. Pick one reality or the other, not invent one wherein there are both too many doctors and too few.

Feel free to work for 120K while carrying 500K in debt 10 years from now... Finally, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Let's make a few points clear. I'm perfectly happy w/ the # of current residency spots available. What I'm not perfectly fine w/ is the proliferation of McD Caribbean DO schools that are created from former Caribbean organizations w/o any checks and restrictions from COCA. Increasing residency spots in order to have employed lower quality clinicians is not the answer toward quality, affordable healthcare.