Step 1 P/F: Decision

[slowthai]

Come on dude. It's to look like they'll carry the torch and continue to power the paper mill as residents, fellows, and beyond.

The wording in the PD survey is "Demonstrated involvement and interest in research" for which 76% of nsurg PD said it's important with mean 4.6/5, the same as Step 1 and LORs.

Dunno how to make it any more apparent than that

But they will have no opportunity to be able to do that if they don't match in the first place. Those of us pursuing competitive fields are professional box checkers. For some of us, it may go deeper than just wanting to match, like they actually truly enjoy research and want to make it a part of their career, but I can guarantee you that most wouldn't be doing any research if it had no bearing on their match prospects.

And even if what you said is true, that's a secondary reason for doing research. Being productive creates an image of someone that's committed to the field, has a good work ethic, will be productive during residency, etc. All or some of these things may be true, but it's all about maximizing your chances in the match at the end of the day.

Interestingly, the question of whether you want to continue doing research could come up during interviews. My answer will be "Absolutely yesssᵇᵉᶜᵃᵘˢᵉ ᴵ ʰᵃᵛᵉ ᵗᵒ" It's an ACGME requirement, so you really have no choice, lol

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[slowthai]

And you know this, how..........

I'm a medical student, I just know these things. Lol, but seriously, it's a pretty logical conclusion to come to. Why would anyone put all the time and effort that goes into research if it didn't hold any weight in the match? I reckon that a minority of us actually have a passion for it. Most of us didn't choose medicine to become researchers; we wanted to become clinicians, first and foremost.

 

[altblue]

I'm a medical student, I just know these things. Lol, but seriously, it's a pretty logical conclusion to come to. Why would anyone put all the time and effort that goes into research if it didn't hold any weight in the match? I reckon that a minority of us actually have a passion for it. Most of us didn't choose medicine to become researchers; we wanted to become clinicians, first and foremost.

It's kind of a bummer that if I ever wanted to go the academic IM -> IM subspecialty route, I'd have to preach about my "passion" for research or "demonstrate" it in med school. I want to do other things in addition to clinical work even, but apparently additional interests in public health and policy advocacy aren't valuable to many programs...

 

[slowthai]

It's kind of a bummer that if I ever wanted to go the academic IM -> IM subspecialty route, I'd have to preach about my "passion" for research or "demonstrate" it in med school. I want to do other things in addition to clinical work even, but apparently additional interests in public health and policy advocacy aren't valuable to many programs...

I think it's because research is the currency of academia; it adds to the prestige of a department, adds more to the CV of whoever the senior author is (your attending most times), increases national and international presence, etc.

 

[7331poas]

God no. The last thing we need is more 26 year olds who've never worked a day in their life hitting the wards as "doctor." In many cases, it's quite obvious who's young and inexperienced and who's not and it has nothing to do with how they look. I realized it as a resident, but it's become way more obvious to me as an attending.

If this is such a problem in your mind, do you think every other country in the world should switch to our system of education?

Your boomer mentality essentially is costing every newly graduated attending hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost revenue and debt.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Come on dude. It's to look like they'll carry the torch and continue to power the paper mill as residents, fellows, and beyond.

It’s to jump through a hoop so you can go practice in your specialty of choice. The vast majority of physicians in this country, in almost every specialty, practice in the community and are not involved in academics.

And even if what you said is true, that's a secondary reason for doing research. Being productive creates an image of someone that's committed to the field, has a good work ethic, will be productive during residency, etc. All or some of these things may be true, but it's all about maximizing your chances in the match at the end of the day.

This. It’s not about feigning some massive interest in an academic career, it’s about showing commitment to the field and doing it because that’s what’s expected to match in that field.

 

[altblue]

I think it's because research is the currency of academia; it adds to the prestige of a department, adds more to the CV of whoever the senior author is (your attending most times), increases national and international presence, etc.

Yup, I understand why it's important and why it's rational from a PD perspective's to select for it, but it seems to come at the expense of other extra things. At least in med school admissions, research was just one component of one's EC's... not to say that we should have 5 million boxes to check off like in pre-med, but it would be nice if other aspects like volunteering or genuine leadership were valued as well

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

God no. The last thing we need is more 26 year olds who've never worked a day in their life hitting the wards as "doctor." In many cases, it's quite obvious who's young and inexperienced and who's not and it has nothing to do with how they look. I realized it as a resident, but it's become way more obvious to me as an attending.

It doesn’t seem to be hurting them in almost every other country that does medicine that way.

 

[Chibucks15]

It doesn’t seem to be hurting them in almost every other country that does medicine that way.

The American personality, especially in the younger population, is vastly different than the rest of the world (seemingly). I'm only 27 and can see it clearly. It literally seems like part of my class was in a different generation how they were raised. Prime example, during the Prometric closures, people were asking how to check and see if their exam was on/how to reschedule. Once told they needed the confirmation number on the confirmation email FOR A VERY IMPORTANT TEST, they either "deleted that email or lost it". Not to mention the countless times people complain about small things explained in the syllabus/emails that they just choose not to read. And constant complaining about things that have no backing other than they are inconvenient for them.

Maybe I'm wrong about other countries (not super familiar) but there is a hell of a lot of ignoring responsibility in the people that haven't ever had to work for a living or raised in the upper class bubble. It isn't everyone so don't come after me for generalizations and all that, but its a good amount for sure.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The American personality, especially in the younger population, is vastly different than the rest of the world (seemingly). I'm only 27 and can see it clearly. It literally seems like part of my class was in a different generation how they were raised. Prime example, during the Prometric closures, people were asking how to check and see if their exam was on/how to reschedule. Once told they needed the confirmation number on the confirmation email FOR A VERY IMPORTANT TEST, they either "deleted that email or lost it". Not to mention the countless times people complain about small things explained in the syllabus/emails that they just choose not to read. And constant complaining about things that have no backing other than they are inconvenient for them.

Maybe I'm wrong about other countries (not super familiar) but there is a hell of a lot of ignoring responsibility in the people that haven't ever had to work for a living or raised in the upper class bubble. It isn't everyone so don't come after me for generalizations and all that, but its a good amount for sure.

If you think that’s unique to America, you need to spend more time elsewhere. I know there’s this stereotype that American youth are irresponsible and the rest of the world isn’t, but it’s just not true.

 

[7331poas]

The American personality, especially in the younger population, is vastly different than the rest of the world (seemingly). I'm only 27 and can see it clearly. It literally seems like part of my class was in a different generation how they were raised. Prime example, during the Prometric closures, people were asking how to check and see if their exam was on/how to reschedule. Once told they needed the confirmation number on the confirmation email FOR A VERY IMPORTANT TEST, they either "deleted that email or lost it". Not to mention the countless times people complain about small things explained in the syllabus/emails that they just choose not to read. And constant complaining about things that have no backing other than they are inconvenient for them.

Maybe I'm wrong about other countries (not super familiar) but there is a hell of a lot of ignoring responsibility in the people that haven't ever had to work for a living or raised in the upper class bubble. It isn't everyone so don't come after me for generalizations and all that, but its a good amount for sure.

"People in my class suck, and I know nothing about students in other countries, but nonetheless I can confidently say ours are worse."

 

[Chibucks15]

If you think that’s unique to America, you need to spend more time elsewhere. I know there’s this stereotype that American youth are irresponsible and the rest of the world isn’t, but it’s just not true.

Oh I don't mean the youth. Literally the populous as a whole haha look at obesity rates, medical noncompliance rates, all the people gathering in Ozarks, etc in the midst of COVID. Many American's are pretty selfish, deny responsibility, and don;t wanna listen to anyone especially if it makes life in any way harder for them personally

 

[Chibucks15]

"People in my class suck, and I know nothing about students in other countries, but nonetheless I can confidently say ours are worse."

Alright bud this is what I meant when I said don't come after me for generalizing. It isn't just my class its many students I have come into contact with. And I never said "I can confidently say" or whatever the hell words you put in my mouth. Just was saying there's a difference between people in terms of maturity and humbleness. I'm gonna go ahead and go out on a limb and listen to the actual attending (who agrees with me by the way) rather than the self proclaimed gunner who advocates for starting board studying before med school even starts. But keep up the hardass persona you have on here by all means

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Oh I don't mean the youth. Literally the populous as a whole haha

We’re talking about a certain part of the population. The argument was literally that people under 26 shouldn’t be on the wards because they aren’t mature or responsible enough. But somehow it works in other countries even though they are just as irresponsible (and worse in some areas).

 

[Chibucks15]

We’re talking about a certain part of the population. The argument was literally that people under 26 shouldn’t be on the wards because they aren’t mature or responsible enough. But somehow it works in other countries even though they are just as irresponsible (and worse in some areas).

I'm taking the American populous as a whole, relating similar things that I have seen personally that show it extends to the youth, and gave my n=1. My apologies

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Alright bud this is what I meant when I said don't come after me for generalizing. It isn't just my class its many students I have come into contact with. And I never said "I can confidently say" or whatever the hell words you put in my mouth. Just was saying there's a difference between people in terms of maturity and humbleness. I'm gonna go ahead and go out on a limb and listen to the actual attending (who agrees with me by the way) rather than the self proclaimed gunner who advocates for starting board studying before med school even starts. But keep up the hardass persona you have on here by all means

There’s not though. It’s this common misconception that people in other countries are somehow more responsible than we are, but they aren’t. For example, it’s commonly through that teens and college age kids there are more responsible with alcohol. In fact there is more teen drinking, more alcoholism, higher rates of cirrhosis deaths from alcohol, etc in Europe. People gonna be people.

 

[Chibucks15]

There’s not though. It’s this common misconception that people in other countries are somehow more responsible than we are, but they aren’t. For example, it’s commonly through that teens and college age kids there are more responsible with alcohol. In fact there is more teen drinking, more alcoholism, higher rates of cirrhosis deaths from alcohol, etc in Europe. People gonna be people.

First off, chill out man. As above, "Maybe I'm wrong about other countries (not super familiar) but there is a hell of a lot of ignoring responsibility in the people that haven't ever had to work for a living or raised in the upper class bubble. It isn't everyone so don't come after me for generalizations and all that, but its a good amount for sure."

See above sentence. There isn't any denying that. I SINCERELY apologize for my n=1 and relating it to the current attitudes of the general populous, of which I am not the only one to share my viewpoint. Thank god you're here to correct me on my woefully incorrect worldview. It'll never happen again

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

First off, chill out man. As above, "Maybe I'm wrong about other countries (not super familiar) but there is a hell of a lot of ignoring responsibility in the people that haven't ever had to work for a living or raised in the upper class bubble. It isn't everyone so don't come after me for generalizations and all that, but its a good amount for sure."

See above sentence. There isn't any denying that. I SINCERELY apologize for my n=1 and relating it to the current attitudes of the general populous, of which I am not the only one to share my viewpoint. Thank god you're here to correct me on my woefully incorrect worldview. It'll never happen again

The only one being aggressive is you. I get you might be feeling defensive because some people pointed out that what you said isn’t accurate, but there’s no reason to get pissed off and start telling people to chill. We’re just having a discussion. People are allowed to disagree with you and point out when something you say isn’t quite right.

 

[Mass Effect]

If this is such a problem in your mind, do you think every other country in the world should switch to our system of education?

Your boomer mentality essentially is costing every newly graduated attending hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost revenue and debt.

Their entire school system is different and their training is MUCH longer than ours. And FYI, I'm nowhere near a boomer. I'm a millennial, not that it matters. I'm also a new attending.

It doesn’t seem to be hurting them in almost every other country that does medicine that way.

As someone who spent a year in London, there is something profoundly different in the college grads I met there. You have military experience, no? Do you really think you're on the same maturity level with the 21 and 22 year olds entering med school? That's not to say that all 21 and 22 year olds are immature. Far from it. I went to school with a couple of 24 year olds who I'd argue were more mature than 30 year olds, but they all had either been in the military or had worked and one was a single mom who held down a full time job for 2 years before med school (she was 25). Many of us out of the system can always spot the ones who went straight from high school to college to med school without any non-academic pursuits/experience in their lives. There's just a stark difference.

 

[Mass Effect]

Those of us pursuing competitive fields are professional box checkers.

This is what I mean. Professional box checkers are quite obvious. I'm not saying it's the student's fault. It's the system that breeds this.

 

[Mass Effect]

The American personality, especially in the younger population, is vastly different than the rest of the world (seemingly). I'm only 27 and can see it clearly. It literally seems like part of my class was in a different generation how they were raised. Prime example, during the Prometric closures, people were asking how to check and see if their exam was on/how to reschedule. Once told they needed the confirmation number on the confirmation email FOR A VERY IMPORTANT TEST, they either "deleted that email or lost it". Not to mention the countless times people complain about small things explained in the syllabus/emails that they just choose not to read. And constant complaining about things that have no backing other than they are inconvenient for them.

Maybe I'm wrong about other countries (not super familiar) but there is a hell of a lot of ignoring responsibility in the people that haven't ever had to work for a living or raised in the upper class bubble. It isn't everyone so don't come after me for generalizations and all that, but its a good amount for sure.

You're not wrong. I was amazed when 2 members of my INTERN class missed call shifts and then just said "sorry, I forgot." Like what?? LOL. That's the least of it. The whining and complaining about non-consequential stuff came from the younger straight-through crowd 99% of the time, not just in my specialty but throughout the hospital. People at town halls complaining with quite an attitude about all kinds of things like asking to be paid to go to interview dinners for recruitment to the hospital paying for alcohol during said dinners to being paid extra for night float (not 24s, but just working overnight) to being paid for supervising interns. It was ridiculous.

 

[Mass Effect]

We’re talking about a certain part of the population. The argument was literally that people under 26 shouldn’t be on the wards because they aren’t mature or responsible enough. But somehow it works in other countries even though they are just as irresponsible (and worse in some areas).

Actually that isn't what I said. I said "The last thing we need is more 26 year olds who've never worked a day in their life hitting the wards as "doctor.""

 

[bobjonesbob]

My school's exams almost never tested memory.

Your med school exams didn't test memory? There are definitely components of conceptual understanding and logical thinking, but this is a dubious claim.

There's a reason only med students and pre meds are up in arms about this subject.

Yeah because that's whose career aspirations it affects.

 

[Mass Effect]

Your med school exams didn't test memory? There are definitely components of conceptual understanding and logical thinking, but this is a dubious claim.

I said "almost never." I went to a systems-based school and while there were some things that were memorization only, many things were not. They were based on clinical cases and thinking through what was going on. Memory would play a role, but it was different from any of the Step 1 test prep I did.

Yeah because that's whose career aspirations it affects.

Wait till these folks are out of school and many of them will see it differently.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Their entire school system is different and their training is MUCH longer than ours. And FYI, I'm nowhere near a boomer. I'm a millennial, not that it matters. I'm also a new attending.



As someone who spent a year in London, there is something profoundly different in the college grads I met there. You have military experience, no? Do you really think you're on the same maturity level with the 21 and 22 year olds entering med school? That's not to say that all 21 and 22 year olds are immature. Far from it. I went to school with a couple of 24 year olds who I'd argue were more mature than 30 year olds, but they all had either been in the military or had worked and one was a single mom who held down a full time job for 2 years before med school (she was 25). Many of us out of the system can always spot the ones who went straight from high school to college to med school without any non-academic pursuits/experience in their lives. There's just a stark difference.

I’ve spent time all over the world and just like here, there are people in their early 20s who are responsible and some who are less. I have not seen that in any country their youth are significantly different from ours.

And the argument that I’m more mature than a 22 year old is moving the goal posts. We’re not talking about 36 year olds with military experience. We’re comparing young students in various parts of the world, and no I don’t think they are significantly different.

The one thing I will say I’m favor of having some premed required first is that the people I know who are med students in countries that go right into it from high school have told me that they have a significant attrition rate because a lot of people end up deciding it isn’t for them, whereas here we have a lot of attrition in undergrad and they haven’t wasted a year or two in med school.

FWIW I think our system of college then med school is fine, and I think it has its advantages. I just don’t think our college students are significantly less able to be med students than the rest of the world.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Actually that isn't what I said. I said "The last thing we need is more 26 year olds who've never worked a day in their life hitting the wards as "doctor.""

Sorry, what I meant was that my argument was that young people around the world are going straight to med school and it is fine—and that they aren’t different than us.

 

[Mass Effect]

I’ve spent time all over the world and just like here, there are people in their early 20s who are responsible and some who are less. I have not seen that in any country their youth are significantly different from ours.

And the argument that I’m more mature than a 22 year old is moving the goal posts. We’re not talking about 36 year olds with military experience. We’re comparing young students in various parts of the world, and no I don’t think they are significantly different.

The one thing I will say I’m favor of having some premed required first is that the people I know who are med students in countries that go right into it from high school have told me that they have a significant attrition rate because a lot of people end up deciding it isn’t for them, whereas here we have a lot of attrition in undergrad and they haven’t wasted a year or two in med school.

FWIW I think our system of college then med school is fine, and I think it has its advantages. I just don’t think our college students are significantly less able to be med students than the rest of the world.

Ok, so take you out of it and forget being 36. On average, do you think a 26 year old with work/military experience is at the same level of maturity than the 26 year old who went straight through and graduated med school? Because having seen both side-to-side in multiple people, I have to say a big fat no with some exceptions.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Ok, so take you out of it and forget being 36. On average, do you think a 26 year old with work/military experience is at the same level of maturity than the 26 year old who went straight through and graduated med school? Because having seen both side-to-side in multiple people, I have to say a big fat no with some exceptions.

Of course not. I’m certainly not arguing that a person with no work experience will on average be as or more responsible than someone with work experience.

 

[Mass Effect]

Of course not. I’m certainly not arguing that a person with no work experience will on average be as or more responsible than someone with work experience.

That's the only point I'm making. Shortening the college--> med school journey pretty much insures younger and younger docs with no outside experience hitting the wards as a doctor. I think that's a bad thing, regardless of what other countries do. At least with the current system, there's time for folks to work during college and/or take a gap year after college.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That's the only point I'm making. Shortening the college--> med school journey pretty much insures younger and younger docs with no outside experience hitting the wards as a doctor. I think that's a bad thing, regardless of what other countries do.

Yeah I agree with you there.

 

[Lucca]

It's kind of a bummer that if I ever wanted to go the academic IM -> IM subspecialty route, I'd have to preach about my "passion" for research or "demonstrate" it in med school. I want to do other things in addition to clinical work even, but apparently additional interests in public health and policy advocacy aren't valuable to many programs...

those interests are definitely valuable and are certainly rewarded at many institutions. In fact, I would say they are becoming more and more common as the primary non-clinical work for academic physicians at many institutions. Bob Wachter, the dept chair of medicine at UCSF is a career QI / value-based medicine researcher and policy advocate. Cant get more mainstream academic medicine than Dept. Chair at a big 4 IM program.

 

[efle]

But they will have no opportunity to be able to do that if they don't match in the first place. Those of us pursuing competitive fields are professional box checkers. For some of us, it may go deeper than just wanting to match, like they actually truly enjoy research and want to make it a part of their career, but I can guarantee you that most wouldn't be doing any research if it had no bearing on their match prospects.

And even if what you said is true, that's a secondary reason for doing research. Being productive creates an image of someone that's committed to the field, has a good work ethic, will be productive during residency, etc. All or some of these things may be true, but it's all about maximizing your chances in the match at the end of the day.

Interestingly, the question of whether you want to continue doing research could come up during interviews. My answer will be "Absolutely yesssᵇᵉᶜᵃᵘˢᵉ ᴵ ʰᵃᵛᵉ ᵗᵒ" It's an ACGME requirement, so you really have no choice, lol

It’s to jump through a hoop so you can go practice in your specialty of choice. The vast majority of physicians in this country, in almost every specialty, practice in the community and are not involved in academics.


This. It’s not about feigning some massive interest in an academic career, it’s about showing commitment to the field and doing it because that’s what’s expected to match in that field.

The majority of physicians may be community, but the majority of neurosurgery and plastics and ENT program directors sure as hell aren't, and their reason for rewarding apps with a dozen research projects isn't for showing commitment to checking boxes and hoop jumping. You and I both know that if a PD sitting across from Average Joe at a big academic center asks whether he sees himself continuing to advance the field through research as a major part of his career, he's going to say yes. He is going to pretend his ass off.

I mean think about how it works with research and medical admissions. Why do you guys think research is a big part of the game at T10 med schools? Because they want their cohorts to have a lot of future professors and grant winners? Or because they like the "image" of a good box checker? It's very much the former, not the latter.

 

[NeuResurgens]

If there's anything the covid crisis has taught me, it's that we DO have issues with personal responsibility in the US compared to other places. Maybe not youth specifically, but the population in general. Grown a**** adults are out there crying that they can't go to a packed restaurant without wearing a mask and claiming it's some big slight against their personal freedoms, worrying that Bill Gates and Fauci created and released the virus so that they could make money on vaccines, and gathering in massive groups to protest social distancing. A lot of them are saying we should be like Sweden who stayed open, ignoring the fact that Swedes more often live singly than we do, have a higher degree of trust in government, and are compliant with mask and distancing initiatives that allow opening to occur. If the US took Sweden's approach it would be disastrous, because we lack the personal responsibility needed to make it work.

Not quite sure how that plays into the arguments about med students coming in younger with less life experience but it reminded me of this and I need to vent how irritated I am with Americans right now lol

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If there's anything the covid crisis has taught me, it's that we DO have issues with personal responsibility in the US compared to other places. Maybe not youth specifically, but the population in general. Grown a**** adults are out there crying that they can't go to a packed restaurant without wearing a mask and claiming it's some big slight against their personal freedoms, worrying that Bill Gates and Fauci created and released the virus so that they could make money on vaccines, and gathering in massive groups to protest social distancing. A lot of them are saying we should be like Sweden who stayed open, ignoring the fact that Swedes more often live singly than we do, have a higher degree of trust in government, and are compliant with mask and distancing initiatives that allow opening to occur. If the US took Sweden's approach it would be disastrous, because we lack the personal responsibility needed to make it work.

Not quite sure how that plays into the arguments about med students coming in younger with less life experience but it reminded me of this and I need to vent how irritated I am with Americans right now lol

Sorry to keep saying this, but this is not different from other countries. France, England, and Germany had extremely large protests against stay at home orders include a 1,000 person protest in Germany. There are people like this everywhere.

 

[7331poas]

Great, if being mature is so important and if you think our system emphasizes maturity over other systems. That must mean that our physicians are superior than physicians in Germany, the UK, and other health systems. And that must mean that we have better medical outcomes than in other systems.

This is the most ridiculous argument I have heard on this site. Every single country in the world can train a physician directly out of high school. But in this country the median M1 age needs to be 24. For what purpose? Because Americans are so immature compared to the English? Because some Americans are not in favor of the current COVID response?

 

[efle]

Great, if being mature is so important and if you think our system emphasizes maturity over other systems. That must mean that our physicians are superior than physicians in Germany, the UK, and other health systems. And that must mean that we have better medical outcomes than in other systems.

This is the most ridiculous argument I have heard on this site. Every single country in the world can train a physician directly out of high school. But in this country the median M1 age needs to be 24. For what purpose? Because Americans are so immature compared to the English? Because some Americans are not in favor of the current COVID response?

OTOH european nations also normalize things like moderate alcohol use and sex much younger. The way american teenagers at uni conduct themselves is completely different than the same age groups in Scandinavia and Germany.

 

[slowthai]

The majority of physicians may be community, but the majority of neurosurgery and plastics and ENT program directors sure as hell aren't, and their reason for rewarding apps with a dozen research projects isn't for showing commitment to checking boxes and hoop jumping. You and I both know that if a PD sitting across from Average Joe at a big academic center asks whether he sees himself continuing to advance the field through research as a major part of his career, he's going to say yes. He is going to pretend his ass off.

I mean think about how it works with research and medical admissions. Why do you guys think research is a big part of the game at T10 med schools? Because they want their cohorts to have a lot of future professors and grant winners? Or because they like the "image" of a good box checker? It's very much the former, not the latter.

You cannot be serious with this. Research is what these programs want. I want to match into one of these programs. In exchange for my research output, I get a spot. Any other reasons why the applicant does it or why the programs want it ultimately do not matter.

We're all playing a game here. The best players win.

 

[efle]

You cannot be serious with this. Research is what these programs want. I want to match into one of these programs. In exchange for my research output, I get a spot. Any other reasons why the applicant does it or why the programs want it ultimately do not matter.

We're all playing a game here. The best players win.

The research arms race was also a recent phenomenon. Guess why it got picked as the next big thing? Because you're more marketable to PDs at big academic centers when you look like you'll continue to crank out research for the rest of your training and beyond. Like their survey said, demonstrating that you'll carry the torch is worth as much as boards or letters to them.

I'm actually shocked at all the pushback this is getting. It's blowing my mind rn that y'all are out here cranking through project after project, believing that it serves purely as another box to check in competition with everyone else. Like, you seriously think PDs like researchy apps because they "won" the research game, not because they expect you to continue doing it? This is absurd. Nsurg PDs like researchy apps because they like graduating researchers.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The research arms race was also a recent phenomenon. Guess why it got picked as the next big thing? Because you're more marketable to PDs at big academic centers when you look like you'll continue to crank out research for the rest of your training and beyond. Like their survey said, demonstrating that you'll carry the torch is worth as much as boards or letters to them.

I'm actually shocked at all the pushback this is getting. It's blowing my mind rn that y'all are out here cranking through project after project, believing that it serves purely as another box to check in competition with everyone else. Like, you seriously think PDs like researchy apps because they "won" the research game, not because they expect you to continue doing it? This is absurd. Nsurg PDs like researchy apps because they like graduating researchers.

It's a game dude.

Bottom line, making research years a requirement for any specialty is a terrible idea.

 

[NeuResurgens]

It's a game dude.

Bottom line, making research years a requirement for any specialty is a terrible idea.

Shoot, the de facto requirement for away rotations is already ridiculous. Tons of time and money, for what I would think is relatively little benefit for the applicant compared to what the program gets out of it. Sure, you get some experience seeing how things are done at a different institution, but the main point is to prove to the institution that they should want you. Doing this year without aways *should* lay the groundwork for a better approach going forward. Will it? Probably not, but one can hope

 

[NeuResurgens]

Sorry to keep saying this, but this is not different from other countries. France, England, and Germany had extremely large protests against stay at home orders include a 1,000 person protest in Germany. There are people like this everywhere.

My experience has always suggested this isn't true (both in Europe and the US) when it comes to overall degree of the problem, but this is a different argument and one we're probably not going to change each other's minds on.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

My experience has always suggested this isn't true (both in Europe and the US) when it comes to overall degree of the problem, but this is a different argument and one we're probably not going to change each other's minds on.

I mean it’s not a matter of opinion that they are protesting in Europe. They just are. If you want to pretend they aren’t that’s fine, but they are protesting the stay at home orders as much as we are in some of those European countries, and in some places even more dramatically.

I’m not sure what your experience has been, but there are just as many stupid and immature people in those countries as there are here. I’ve met plenty of them.

 

[slowthai]

The research arms race was also a recent phenomenon. Guess why it got picked as the next big thing? Because you're more marketable to PDs at big academic centers when you look like you'll continue to crank out research for the rest of your training and beyond. Like their survey said, demonstrating that you'll carry the torch is worth as much as boards or letters to them.

I'm actually shocked at all the pushback this is getting. It's blowing my mind rn that y'all are out here cranking through project after project, believing that it serves purely as another box to check in competition with everyone else. Like, you seriously think PDs like researchy apps because they "won" the research game, not because they expect you to continue doing it? This is absurd. Nsurg PDs like researchy apps because they like graduating researchers.

But honestly, why would PDs, with all of their experience, truly think that you'll continue to crank out pubs like crazy for the rest of your career when like 90% of grads in all fields leave academia for the community? It doesn't follow.

@longhaul3 @operaman What do you think?

 

[Mass Effect]

Great, if being mature is so important and if you think our system emphasizes maturity over other systems. That must mean that our physicians are superior than physicians in Germany, the UK, and other health systems. And that must mean that we have better medical outcomes than in other systems.

This is the most ridiculous argument I have heard on this site. Every single country in the world can train a physician directly out of high school. But in this country the median M1 age needs to be 24. For what purpose? Because Americans are so immature compared to the English? Because some Americans are not in favor of the current COVID response?

Yes, you're right. What you just posted IS, in fact, the most ridiculous argument I think any of us have ever heard on this site. Good thing that wasn't my argument.

 

[longhaul3]

But honestly, why would PDs, with all of their experience, truly think that you'll continue to crank out pubs like crazy for the rest of your career when like 90% of grads in all fields leave academia for the community? It doesn't follow.

@longhaul3 @operaman What do you think?

It's definitely a box-checking thing for a lot of people. But neurosurgery is the ultimate type-A specialty, and a lot of people applying have aspirations to be the chair of an elite department, and they are planning on box-checking all the way to that goal, so research will always be part of it. No elite program these days is going to appoint a chair who never did research. Neurosurgery may not be the best example here because most programs have a year or more of semi-protected research time, and most residents are pretty heavily involved in research. There also aren't any community neurosurgery programs, so every neurosurgeon is necessarily trained in an academic environment by academic neurosurgeons.

A lot of us just wanted to match and then just wanted to keep pace so that we can keep our options open career-wise. Lots of residents aren't interested in academic careers at all. There are a few programs that are willing to admit they support residents who want to go into private practice, but they're in the minority.

 

[efle]

It's a game dude.

I completely agree this is the applicant experience. It's just funny to me that anyone has convinced themselves PDs see it the same way. PDs didn't invent this as a meaningless new criteria just to give us something else to compete on. We built this game up and now everyone needs to sell themself as someone who wants to take up the academic mantle, because if you don't, the guy next to you will and steal your spot.

To again make an analogy to our last round of applications - it's like if a premed told you that volunteerism wasn't to demonstrate anything, it was just to compete and win the stupid EC game against the other premeds. Is that true? In the most cynical view, sure yes that's true. Is that what adcoms are really evaluating when looking at volunteerism? Absolutely not. But we found out that we all have to pretend to be humanitarians, or else we'll look bad being the only person not pretending as hard.

 

[efle]

But honestly, why would PDs, with all of their experience, truly think that you'll continue to crank out pubs like crazy for the rest of your career when like 90% of grads in all fields leave academia for the community? It doesn't follow.

@longhaul3 @operaman What do you think?

I'd love to see a source that says 90% of neurosurgeons never touch research again. The fields where academics are rare don't require research to match into. It's just stuff like tertiary center ENT/plastics/nsurg where it's become the norm to apply with impressive research, and yes those people do often stay in academia. Derm is the outlier where I expect the PDs realize few really care that much about publishing after med school.

 

[operaman]

But honestly, why would PDs, with all of their experience, truly think that you'll continue to crank out pubs like crazy for the rest of your career when like 90% of grads in all fields leave academia for the community? It doesn't follow.

@longhaul3 @operaman What do you think?

I haven’t been keeping up with this thread so forgive me if I’m weighing in on the wrong point.

Research is a skill. It’s not one you’re born knowing how to do. There’s a learning curve around it that takes time and effort to learn. If you’re a more academic department, matching students with multiple first author pubs suggests they have acquired some of these skills. More productive students are clearly more likely to continue such productivity in training. Expectations aside, if you want your trainees to do projects in residency, you would do well to match people who know what they’re doing.

I don’t think PDs have any illusions about what people will do for their careers. Sure they would all like their residents to become famous department chairs one day but everyone knows that isn’t going to happen.

So why might a PD at a less academic program care about research? Well, even those programs do research so it’s always a plus. Even so, it also demonstrates a set of skills that are important: ability to set goals and follow through, working effectively on a team, ability to critically evaluate other research, ability to think scientifically, etc. It also shows you had enough academic ability to devote time to research while still getting through medical school. People who score well below average probably don’t have the bandwidth to do big projects and keep up with their grades.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

It's just funny to me that anyone has convinced themselves PDs see it the same way.

No one here has said that... and as mentioned above, PDs are under no illusions where most of their grads will end up.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

Going back to the idea of research years being a requirement, I think it wastes the creative potential of medical students at a time when they are least likely to contribute something meaningful, since they haven’t finished training and haven’t seen enough cases or surgeries to know what is important. Many medical students who pump out research just go for low-hanging fruit or whatever the whims of their preceptors are.