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Except all US med schools already have this. I like the idea in DO forums of decentralizing CS/PE by having schools certifying results of passing the OSCEs.

Make CS/PE the screening tool for IMGs/FMGs only. Leave US grads out of this crap

Yeah what's the point of these lengthy and intricate LCME accreditation reviews if the nonstop OSCEs we all suffered from like week 1 of M1 through graduation weren't enough to check the "Can speak in complete sentences to patients" box? My school's final OSCE was more difficult than Step 2 CS and had a much higher failure rate, and was frankly a better test. Letting schools take care of it is a very reasonable compromise in my opinion.

But having something like CS for the IMGs/FMGs? Probably still a good idea.

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Cool nbome said “F you guys, we aren’t getting rid of PE”

edit: the explanation they gave “OMM is ju$t so awe$ome that we couldn’t get rid of PE”
 
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Cool nbome said “F you guys, we aren’t getting rid of PE”

edit: the explanation they gave “OMM is ju$t so awe$ome that we couldn’t get rid of PE”
1611928426945.png

Money pweeeezzzzzzzeee
 
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Bring on WSB.
 
As an "old school" doc, I was not a fan when CS was introduced. "Simulation cases" didn't make sense to me. A good medical school will have clinics and hospitals for students to train at where they can be "checked off" for competency in running a code, inserting a catheter, central line, etc and managing patients of all types including those who are suicidal. The DOs it appears will still have to take the PE as it has not been cancelled yet.
 
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What are the chances DOs will take it off in the next 2-3 years? Times are looking strange.

I’m not asking for myself alone, just in general for any friends who are pre-meds & non-trads potentially applying to MD and/or DO schools. *shrugs*
 
Except all US med schools already have this. I like the idea in DO forums of decentralizing CS/PE by having schools certifying results of passing the OSCEs.

Make CS/PE the screening tool for IMGs/FMGs only. Leave US grads out of this crap
Though I do agree with this because standards overseas vary widely, I must say that it’s not like American doctors don’t have terrible physical examination skills.

Every doctor I’ve been to here (I’m sort of sickly), and that my husband has seen, performs such superficial examination (if at all!) that always leaves something to be desired. My GI doctor barely pressed into my abdomen, didn’t even care to take a look at it (my liver enzymes were very high, so it’s only logical to want to observe signs of portal hypertension). One of my medications was causing me palpitations, and all my PCP did was listen to my heart beat for 15 seconds (not even a whole minute!). My husband’s pulmonologist only examined the back of his thorax (that was the only place where he laid his stethoscope)...

Mind you, I’m an IMG and going the medical school route here again (because reasons). I know doctors here rely too heavily on imaging, which makes physical examination sort of pointless sometimes. However, my mother-in-law getting prescribed an inhaler without the doctor hearing her lungs because he was waiting on her lung function tests was the height of this trend I’ve noticed.

My point being, don’t think that this sort of test is necessary for IMG only because physicians trained here are the paragon of
medical practice.
 
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Though I do agree with this because standards overseas vary widely, I must say that it’s not like American doctors don’t have terrible physical examination skills.

Every doctor I’ve been to here (I’m sort of sickly), and that my husband has seen, performs such superficial examination (if at all!) that always leaves something to be desired. My GI doctor barely pressed into my abdomen, didn’t even care to take a look at it (my liver enzymes were very high, so it’s only logical to want to observe signs of portal hypertension). One of my medications was causing me palpitations, and all my PCP did was listen to my heart beat for 15 seconds (not even a whole minute!). My husband’s pulmonologist only examined the back of his thorax (that was the only place where he laid his stethoscope)...

Mind you, I’m an IMG and going the medical school route here again (because reasons). I know doctors here rely too heavily on imaging, which makes physical examination sort of pointless sometimes. However, my mother-in-law getting prescribed an inhaler without the doctor hearing her lungs because he was waiting on her lung function tests was the height of this trend I’ve noticed.

My point being, don’t think that this sort of test is necessary for IMG only because physicians trained here are the paragon of
medical practice.

This doesn't really change anything. The physicians you saw might have gone to school when clinical skills training wasn't highly valued. And the problems you highlighted are better addressed by residency/fellowship than by requiring a $1K test. Nor does this show a $1K test evaluates clinical skills better than school's OSCEs.
 
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Though I do agree with this because standards overseas vary widely, I must say that it’s not like American doctors don’t have terrible physical examination skills.

Every doctor I’ve been to here (I’m sort of sickly), and that my husband has seen, performs such superficial examination (if at all!) that always leaves something to be desired. My GI doctor barely pressed into my abdomen, didn’t even care to take a look at it (my liver enzymes were very high, so it’s only logical to want to observe signs of portal hypertension). One of my medications was causing me palpitations, and all my PCP did was listen to my heart beat for 15 seconds (not even a whole minute!). My husband’s pulmonologist only examined the back of his thorax (that was the only place where he laid his stethoscope)...

Mind you, I’m an IMG and going the medical school route here again (because reasons). I know doctors here rely too heavily on imaging, which makes physical examination sort of pointless sometimes. However, my mother-in-law getting prescribed an inhaler without the doctor hearing her lungs because he was waiting on her lung function tests was the height of this trend I’ve noticed.

My point being, don’t think that this sort of test is necessary for IMG only because physicians trained here are the paragon of
medical practice.

The physical exam is not necessary in such a huge majority of cases. You can get an accurate ddx or even the diagnosis from history alone in like 98% of cases.

And most people don’t listen to the heart for a full minute. You generally don’t have to unless it’s a young kiddo where their heart rate is super fast.
 
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Here is a bit of history on the development of this exam, retold from stories I have heard, one of which was someone in the room where it was being discussed (they spoke out against the exam, FWIW):

The original intent was for it to be an additional tool to evaluate IMG's who struggled with English as a second language. As it was developed, they realized the cost of the infrastructure to maintain such an exam was going to be huge, with only a limited audience of IMGs who would be taking it. In other words, it was too expensive and would not be worth the money. However, they had done all of this work and thought it was a good process that was meaningful. Someone had the bright idea that a good way to fund it would be to just make all U.S. grads take the exam as well. You know, spread the cost out over a far larger pool such that it would be financially feasible (although $2000 added on to existing medical education debt is a terrible idea). This idea got footing and progressed and was eventually approved. Some protested but their voices were drowned out quickly. Then, there was the point where the pass rate was determined to be too high (99%). At that point, they suddenly, and without warning, started "grading harder" and many students got caught by this transition where the testers were given marching orders to make the exam more difficult, grade harder, and make the pass rate in the low to mid 90's. Needless to say, this period cost many residency applicants dearly, as they now had a black mark on their application that many program directors had no idea what to do with.

Once the exam was established, it became careers for so many involved and had tremendous levels of bureaucracy. I thought the exam, once established, would never be able to be uprooted and put out to pasture. I sit here completely shocked that it actually happened. It is sad that it took a pandemic to actually cause everyone to remember how useless the exam is for US Grads (and most IMGs). Since COMLEX did a copycat of USMLE with theirs previously, we can only hope that COMLEX will do away with their version as well.

You are all witnessing history here, where organized academic medicine makes a step in the right direction. A modern day "Flexner Report" moment.

Having gone through the process prior to the CS exam, I never took it, but I have heard enough stories to render an opinion that it was worthless.

This is a memorable moment. Mark down what you were doing when you heard this news. As medical students, it may be the last time in your training that you see a change in the processes of academic medicine that make things better, not worse.

On a related topic, the switch of the USMLE to pass fail was a terrible decision for >90% of medical students, but benefits medical schools. It helps medical schools disguise the low performing students. With the P/F USMLE Step I (I am sure step II will follow soon) and the pass fail grading systems most schools have adopted, it makes it easier for medical schools to hide their students who have done terribly and would have otherwise gone unmatched. It now makes them look just like all of the other middle of the pack students. It is detrimental to all students except the lowest performers. Now, middle of the pack students are more at risk of going unmatched because they look just like the student who barely graduated and performed miserably on all exams. Kudos to the few brave schools that still give at least a quartile rank to their students.
 
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Ha you are the guy who wrote the silly stuff in that old clerkships guide. This is perfectly on-brand. Incredible really.

Edit: I can't get over how hilarious this is. It's great insight to know this exam is made for someone such as yourself. The problem is that you really need to leave the rest of us functioning adults in America out of it.

LOOOOOL and it's called "Pearls of Wisdom"
 
@Phloston 's stuff helped me pass Step 3. And it was free. Back off him.

Also, I think CS makes sense in theory, at least for some people.

The issue as I understood it, was that it was determined to be discriminatory for only IMGS or ESL applicants to be required to take it, and it was either scrap it for them or make everyone take it.

Residency programs that rely on IMGs (and there's a lot of them) truly depend on CS to help them filter.

I don't know the best solution, and while I don't advocate the test for AMGs, if it's true that the only way to keep it for IMGs is require it across the board, then I can understand why that was policy.
 
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@Phloston 's stuff helped me pass Step 3. And it was free. Back off him.

Also, I think CS makes sense in theory, at least for some people.

The issue as I understood it, was that it was determined to be discriminatory for only IMGS or ESL applicants to be required to take it, and it was either scrap it for them or make everyone take it.

Residency programs that rely on IMGs (and there's a lot of them) truly depend on CS to help them filter.

I don't know the best solution, and while I don't advocate the test for AMGs, if it's true that the only way to keep it for IMGs is require it across the board, then I can understand why that was policy.

If programs need IMGs to survive, won't they already know how to deal with language barriers?
 
Also serious question that's sort of related: how true is the notion that programs that depend heavily on IMGs are malignant sweatshops?

Because if CS existed to evaluate IMGs but the costs were too high to depend on IMGs alone, that means the CS supporters were pushing for survival of IMG-dependent programs even if it means screwing over the US grads completely. Which is idiotic.
 
Though I do agree with this because standards overseas vary widely, I must say that it’s not like American doctors don’t have terrible physical examination skills.

Every doctor I’ve been to here (I’m sort of sickly), and that my husband has seen, performs such superficial examination (if at all!) that always leaves something to be desired. My GI doctor barely pressed into my abdomen, didn’t even care to take a look at it (my liver enzymes were very high, so it’s only logical to want to observe signs of portal hypertension). One of my medications was causing me palpitations, and all my PCP did was listen to my heart beat for 15 seconds (not even a whole minute!). My husband’s pulmonologist only examined the back of his thorax (that was the only place where he laid his stethoscope)...

Mind you, I’m an IMG and going the medical school route here again (because reasons). I know doctors here rely too heavily on imaging, which makes physical examination sort of pointless sometimes. However, my mother-in-law getting prescribed an inhaler without the doctor hearing her lungs because he was waiting on her lung function tests was the height of this trend I’ve noticed.

My point being, don’t think that this sort of test is necessary for IMG only because physicians trained here are the paragon of
medical practice.
All of those things you criticized really don't matter or change management. Much of the basic physical exam is exceedingly useless.
 
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I don't know the best solution, and while I don't advocate the test for AMGs, if it's true that the only way to keep it for IMGs is require it across the board, then I can understand why that was policy.
In my opinion, this is a shameful approach to solving a problem.
 
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You won't be wasting time and energy preparing for this worthless exam.

You get to save a lot of money and time because you won't be flying across the country just to take a nonsense exam.

You get to avoid so much stress because your career won't be threatened by an arbitrary, terrible, and unrealistic exam.
wth? why do you have to fly? your own med school/institution doesn't normally offer it?
 
wth? why do you have to fly? your own med school/institution doesn't normally offer it?

Well you didn't have to fly, but there were only about 5 locations nationwide that offered it. I think the NBME administered it directly, but I can't remember

Edit: Made everything past tense. Good riddance!
 
What effect do you think this will have on DOs?

As far as standardized testing goes, it sounds like everything is riding on Step 2 CK with CS being eliminated and Step 1 being P/F.

It sounds to me like it's fewer data points available to help DOs match. (?)
 
What effect do you think this will have on DOs?

As far as standardized testing goes, it sounds like everything is riding on Step 2 CK with CS being eliminated and Step 1 being P/F.

It sounds to me like it's fewer data points available to help DOs match. (?)

CS being eliminated has no effect besides maybe screwing IMGs over.

DOs are shafted by PE continuing to exist
 
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All of those things you criticized really don't matter or change management. Much of the basic physical exam is exceedingly useless.
Yeah there's pretty good data that physical exams are generally worthless for most things.
 
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Can we please start a class action lawsuit to get refunded for those of us who had to take it???
 
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Yeah there's pretty good data that physical exams are generally worthless for most things.
The sensitivity and specificity aren't great for many historically taught maneuvers and I think they can mislead/cloud judgement in some cases. That said, I don't think that's the end of the issue either. An important principle of medicine ingrained in trainees is that we shouldn't do things that don't change management (or aren't required by insurance/billing lol.) If I'm going to get a PFT or a CT to guide my decision making then I don't think it matters at all to listen to bowel sounds or listen to an absurd 12 listening posts.
 
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If programs need IMGs to survive, won't they already know how to deal with language barriers?
This doesn't make sense. The point is that someone with serious language issues can game the system by having someone more fluent fill out ERAS for them, then they waste the program's time when they show up for an interview.

Also many people have language skills that allow them to do decent on the steps or fill out their apps but then they don't have the conversational skills.

Programs don't have the tools for dealing with language barriers, the whole point of the system is to avoid them to begin with.
 
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CS being eliminated has no effect besides maybe screwing IMGs over.
Could you elaborate?

As a future IMG thinking about coming to the US, the switch to pass/fail of Step 1 and now this happening to Step 2 CS make me happy on one hand (less to study for, less money to throw at them), but on the other... how the hell am I going to prove my value againts AMGs? My plan was to overcompensate trying to score more than average, and now what?
 
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Could you elaborate?

As a future IMG thinking about coming to the US, the switch to pass/fail of Step 1 and now this happening to Step 2 CS make me happy on one hand (less to study for, less money to throw at them), but on the other... how the hell am I going to prove my value againts AMGs? My plan was to overcompensate trying to score more than average, and now what?

What you said describes the problem IMGs will face. I don't know the answer
 
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Could you elaborate?

As a future IMG thinking about coming to the US, the switch to pass/fail of Step 1 and now this happening to Step 2 CS make me happy on one hand (less to study for, less money to throw at them), but on the other... how the hell am I going to prove my value againts AMGs? My plan was to overcompensate trying to score more than average, and now what?
Idk why you think CS will prove your value against AMG 😂 CS is more like a barrier for you than something to make you stand out especially comparing to AMG. You should be happy about it. Step 1 will suck for you>DO>MD at a non-top schools. Now you will have to just put all your game on step 2CK.
 
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@Phloston 's stuff helped me pass Step 3. And it was free. Back off him.

Also, I think CS makes sense in theory, at least for some people.

The issue as I understood it, was that it was determined to be discriminatory for only IMGS or ESL applicants to be required to take it, and it was either scrap it for them or make everyone take it.

Residency programs that rely on IMGs (and there's a lot of them) truly depend on CS to help them filter.

I don't know the best solution, and while I don't advocate the test for AMGs, if it's true that the only way to keep it for IMGs is require it across the board, then I can understand why that was policy.
Thanks
 
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I just looked at this thread, and mimelim thought it was strong work except for one point about buying coffee.
 
Here is a bit of history on the development of this exam, retold from stories I have heard, one of which was someone in the room where it was being discussed (they spoke out against the exam, FWIW):

The original intent was for it to be an additional tool to evaluate IMG's who struggled with English as a second language. As it was developed, they realized the cost of the infrastructure to maintain such an exam was going to be huge, with only a limited audience of IMGs who would be taking it. In other words, it was too expensive and would not be worth the money. However, they had done all of this work and thought it was a good process that was meaningful. Someone had the bright idea that a good way to fund it would be to just make all U.S. grads take the exam as well. You know, spread the cost out over a far larger pool such that it would be financially feasible (although $2000 added on to existing medical education debt is a terrible idea). This idea got footing and progressed and was eventually approved. Some protested but their voices were drowned out quickly. Then, there was the point where the pass rate was determined to be too high (99%). At that point, they suddenly, and without warning, started "grading harder" and many students got caught by this transition where the testers were given marching orders to make the exam more difficult, grade harder, and make the pass rate in the low to mid 90's. Needless to say, this period cost many residency applicants dearly, as they now had a black mark on their application that many program directors had no idea what to do with.

Once the exam was established, it became careers for so many involved and had tremendous levels of bureaucracy. I thought the exam, once established, would never be able to be uprooted and put out to pasture. I sit here completely shocked that it actually happened. It is sad that it took a pandemic to actually cause everyone to remember how useless the exam is for US Grads (and most IMGs). Since COMLEX did a copycat of USMLE with theirs previously, we can only hope that COMLEX will do away with their version as well.

You are all witnessing history here, where organized academic medicine makes a step in the right direction. A modern day "Flexner Report" moment.

Having gone through the process prior to the CS exam, I never took it, but I have heard enough stories to render an opinion that it was worthless.

This is a memorable moment. Mark down what you were doing when you heard this news. As medical students, it may be the last time in your training that you see a change in the processes of academic medicine that make things better, not worse.

On a related topic, the switch of the USMLE to pass fail was a terrible decision for >90% of medical students, but benefits medical schools. It helps medical schools disguise the low performing students. With the P/F USMLE Step I (I am sure step II will follow soon) and the pass fail grading systems most schools have adopted, it makes it easier for medical schools to hide their students who have done terribly and would have otherwise gone unmatched. It now makes them look just like all of the other middle of the pack students. It is detrimental to all students except the lowest performers. Now, middle of the pack students are more at risk of going unmatched because they look just like the student who barely graduated and performed miserably on all exams. Kudos to the few brave schools that still give at least a quartile rank to their students.
Re your last line here, I think the combo of P/F med school grades + a numerical Step 1 USMLE is best for students truthfully. The number of students who have to waste time catering to their atavistic and anachronistic med school material, at the expense of USMLE, is extraordinary. It's not what med schools teach that's important; it's what the USMLE assesses that is. But yet again, the point of this thread is 2CS not Step 1. And as I've opined already re the latter, I think CS was a decent enough exam. I think the USMLE sequence is overall weaker without it. And the sandwiches were Ace at the Philly center.
 
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I re-read his document and agree with almost every point in detail. I absolutely have evaluated students and have held against them/credited them many, many of the ppints he makes. Many, many of the points he makes are things I know doctors evaluating me were looking for back in the day and still do, and things that my current peers/colleagues also have as part of the bar now that we are in a position to evaluate students.

Basically, people being evaluated can disagree all they like with his points, but I know what the people doing the evaluating are looking for, and he addresses a lot of it.
 
Though I do agree with this because standards overseas vary widely, I must say that it’s not like American doctors don’t have terrible physical examination skills.

Every doctor I’ve been to here (I’m sort of sickly), and that my husband has seen, performs such superficial examination (if at all!) that always leaves something to be desired. My GI doctor barely pressed into my abdomen, didn’t even care to take a look at it (my liver enzymes were very high, so it’s only logical to want to observe signs of portal hypertension). One of my medications was causing me palpitations, and all my PCP did was listen to my heart beat for 15 seconds (not even a whole minute!). My husband’s pulmonologist only examined the back of his thorax (that was the only place where he laid his stethoscope)...

Mind you, I’m an IMG and going the medical school route here again (because reasons). I know doctors here rely too heavily on imaging, which makes physical examination sort of pointless sometimes. However, my mother-in-law getting prescribed an inhaler without the doctor hearing her lungs because he was waiting on her lung function tests was the height of this trend I’ve noticed.

My point being, don’t think that this sort of test is necessary for IMG only because physicians trained here are the paragon of
medical practice.
History is the most important part. Physical exam is largely performative to meet patient expectations of what a doctor encounter looks like. Even on the tests being discussed here, the physical exam was like 2 minutes out of 15.
CS being eliminated has no effect besides maybe screwing IMGs over.

DOs are shafted by PE continuing to exist
Yes I was trying to explain to my husband how not having the CS can make programs more leery of taking FMGs/IMGs with extremely variable medical school training, English language skills, and American health culture skills.
 
The PE has real value and it totally pisses me off when people say how worthless it is, but then again I've saved lives that would have been lost and the difference was I performed a careful exam and the other docs did not.

That said, in some cases it is just part of what is a necessary (and valuable) ritual between doctor and patient, and sometimes it doesn't change management because of what you can gain from history/tests.

I don't really trust doctors saying how useless it is, but nor do I trust a patient's assessment of their management based on... well, how can a layperson assess quality of physical exam?
 
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The PE has real value and it totally pisses me off when people say how worthless it is, but then again I've saved lives that would have been lost and the difference was I performed a careful exam and the other docs did not.

That said, in some cases it is just part of what is a necessary (and valuable) ritual between doctor and patient, and sometimes it doesn't change management because of what you can gain from history/tests.

I don't really trust doctors saying how useless it is, but nor do I trust a patient's assessment of their management based on... well, how can a layperson assess quality of physical exam?

No joke i misread that as COMLEX PE initially, got confused and realized you're talking about physical exam.

Brb gonna go to DO forums to rant about cancelling PE :bag::sorry:
 
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The sensitivity and specificity aren't great for many historically taught maneuvers and I think they can mislead/cloud judgement in some cases. That said, I don't think that's the end of the issue either. An important principle of medicine ingrained in trainees is that we shouldn't do things that don't change management (or aren't required by insurance/billing lol.) If I'm going to get a PFT or a CT to guide my decision making then I don't think it matters at all to listen to bowel sounds or listen to an absurd 12 listening posts.
Bingo.

It also matters what area we're talking about. Obviously PE matters for stuff like skin, most everything EENT, some MSK. You get the idea.
 
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The PE has real value and it totally pisses me off when people say how worthless it is, but then again I've saved lives that would have been lost and the difference was I performed a careful exam and the other docs did not.

That said, in some cases it is just part of what is a necessary (and valuable) ritual between doctor and patient, and sometimes it doesn't change management because of what you can gain from history/tests.

I don't really trust doctors saying how useless it is, but nor do I trust a patient's assessment of their management based on... well, how can a layperson assess quality of physical exam?
Completely agree about the ritual aspect. I don't much like it, but it is what it is.

And again, we have lots of data saying much of the PE is useless. That also means some of it isn't.
 
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Completely agree about the ritual aspect. I don't much like it, but it is what it is.

And again, we have lots of data saying much of the PE is useless. That also means some of it isn't.

But you’re a terrible doctor if you think the physical exam is mostly worthless and you’re probably killing patients.
 
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Re your last line here, I think the combo of P/F med school grades + a numerical Step 1 USMLE is best for students truthfully. The number of students who have to waste time catering to their atavistic and anachronistic med school material, at the expense of USMLE, is extraordinary. It's not what med schools teach that's important; it's what the USMLE assesses that is. But yet again, the point of this thread is 2CS not Step 1. And as I've opined already re the latter, I think CS was a decent enough exam. I think the USMLE sequence is overall weaker without it. And the sandwiches were Ace at the Philly center.
I want to challenge this assertion. Step 1 covers material that is supposed to be learned during the first two years of medical school, but do high scores actually translate to better physicians and better patient care? Is knowing what burr cells look like important to patient care? Perhaps for a pathologist and hematologist, but I certainly don't look at blood smears anymore.

There's only so much you can assess with a multiple choice exam--the questions have to be relatively straight-forward (only have one *best* answer), which doesn't reflect the reality of medicine. There are a lot of things that are taught during the first two years that isn't assessed on Step 1 and is still very important to patient care.

I'm not saying grades for the first two years are better, just saying that the assertion that Step 1 covers what is *important* for physicians is not accurate.

But since this is a thread about Step 2 CS... I think it's reasonable for schools to internally assess clinical skills, and have the option of doing a standardized patient exam if your school doesn't provide it. A grade on the transcript vs a Pass on an exam--most students don't need both to prove they have decent clinical skills.
 
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I want to challenge this assertion. Step 1 covers material that is supposed to be learned during the first two years of medical school, but do high scores actually translate to better physicians and better patient care? Is knowing what burr cells look like important to patient care? Perhaps for a pathologist and hematologist, but I certainly don't look at blood smears anymore.

There's only so much you can assess with a multiple choice exam--the questions have to be relatively straight-forward (only have one *best* answer), which doesn't reflect the reality of medicine. There are a lot of things that are taught during the first two years that isn't assessed on Step 1 and is still very important to patient care.

I'm not saying grades for the first two years are better, just saying that the assertion that Step 1 covers what is *important* for physicians is not accurate.

But since this is a thread about Step 2 CS... I think it's reasonable for schools to internally assess clinical skills, and have the option of doing a standardized patient exam if your school doesn't provide it. A grade on the transcript vs a Pass on an exam--most students don't need both to prove they have decent clinical skills.
Re Step 1:

If the argument is med school grades vs a numerical Step 1, it's not even a question that an objective test all students take provides much more value. Otherwise, why don't we just do away with the numerical MCAT and SATs. Let's just use high school grades and a P/F SAT.

It's not the opinions of professors that matter; it's what the licensing exam assesses that does. Ideally, medical school professors would stay educated by going through all of the NBME material themselves, distill down exactly what the licensing exam wants, and then teach that content to students, demonstrating and explaining that what they're teaching is straight from the exams. Instead, students essentially get two distinct curricula: one from their med school, and the other from USMLE resources. Students are left in a tug of war between the two, where they interfere with each other. The truth is, the internet / USMLE resources are arbitraging out the need for medical schools, which are becoming increasingly obsolete. One could learn more sitting in an apartment in Iceland doing three Qbanks compared to someone attending daily classes at a US med school and not studying USMLE material.

Re 2CS:

I'm still yet to read any cogent arguments as far as why elimination of 2CS strengthens the medical licensing exam sequence. That the exam might seem like a nuisance to deal with in and of itself is not a sufficient line of reasoning. If Covid hadn't hit, 2CS wouldn't be going anywhere. This was a purely financial decision, not one related to strengthening of the licensing exam sequence.
 
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Re 2CS:

I'm still yet to read any cogent arguments as far as why elimination of 2CS strengthens the medical licensing exam sequence.
No one was arguing that it’s a absence “strengthened” the licensing process exam sequence. If anything it’s presence didn’t really add any meaningful value.
This was a purely financial decision, not one related to strengthening of the licensing exam sequence.
The exact same rationale as for changing CS to be required US grads and not just IMGs.
 
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Re Step 1:

If the argument is med school grades vs a numerical Step 1, it's not even a question that an objective test all students take provides much more value. Otherwise, why don't we just do away with the numerical MCAT and SATs. Let's just use high school grades and a P/F SAT.

It's not the opinions of professors that matter; it's what the licensing exam assesses that does. Ideally, medical school professors would stay educated by going through all of the NBME material themselves, distill down exactly what the licensing exam wants, and then teach that content to students, demonstrating and explaining that what they're teaching is straight from the exams. Instead, students essentially get two distinct curricula: one from their med school, and the other from USMLE resources. Students are left in a tug of war between the two, where they interfere with each other. The truth is, the internet / USMLE resources are arbitraging out the need for medical schools, which are becoming increasingly obsolete. One could learn more sitting in an apartment in Iceland doing three Qbanks compared to someone attending daily classes at a US med school and not studying USMLE material.
I actually agree with you here. A scored step 1 is much better than grades. I think most med students agree with you there actually.
Re 2CS:

I'm still yet to read any cogent arguments as far as why elimination of 2CS strengthens the medical licensing exam sequence. That the exam might seem like a nuisance to deal with in and of itself is not a sufficient line of reasoning. If Covid hadn't hit, 2CS wouldn't be going anywhere. This was a purely financial decision, not one related to strengthening of the licensing exam sequence.
You’re looking at it from the wrong way. Just because removing something doesn’t make a process stronger doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be removed. Although I’d argue that removing superfluous stuff actually does make it stronger.
 
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Re Step 1:

If the argument is med school grades vs a numerical Step 1, it's not even a question that an objective test all students take provides much more value. Otherwise, why don't we just do away with the numerical MCAT and SATs. Let's just use high school grades and a P/F SAT.

It's not the opinions of professors that matter; it's what the licensing exam assesses that does. Ideally, medical school professors would stay educated by going through all of the NBME material themselves, distill down exactly what the licensing exam wants, and then teach that content to students, demonstrating and explaining that what they're teaching is straight from the exams. Instead, students essentially get two distinct curricula: one from their med school, and the other from USMLE resources. Students are left in a tug of war between the two, where they interfere with each other. The truth is, the internet / USMLE resources are arbitraging out the need for medical schools, which are becoming increasingly obsolete. One could learn more sitting in an apartment in Iceland doing three Qbanks compared to someone attending daily classes at a US med school and not studying USMLE material.

Re 2CS:

I'm still yet to read any cogent arguments as far as why elimination of 2CS strengthens the medical licensing exam sequence. That the exam might seem like a nuisance to deal with in and of itself is not a sufficient line of reasoning. If Covid hadn't hit, 2CS wouldn't be going anywhere. This was a purely financial decision, not one related to strengthening of the licensing exam sequence.

What did CS even add? You keep ignoring my posts stating that CS had no value for US grads because OSCEs do a much better job testing clinical skills. Should CS be used to screen IMGs/FMGs? Sure i'm ok with that but the history apparently shows CS is too costly to run and cannot claim profits just by relying on IMGs/FMGs alone.
 
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It's the notion that it's superfluous in the first place is what I don't agree with. The exam wasn't removed because it had nominal/ostensible value. It was removed because Covid made it financially infeasible. It was just a business decision.
 
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What did CS even add? You keep ignoring my posts stating that CS had no value for US grads because OSCEs do a much better job testing clinical skills. Should CS be used to screen IMGs/FMGs? Sure i'm ok with that but the history apparently shows CS is too costly to run and cannot claim profits just by relying on IMGs/FMGs alone.
I think this type of comment panders to stereotypes and furthers the divide between AMG and IMG applicants. I'm sure plenty of international schools have phenomenal clinicals, and likewise, plenty of American schools are trash.
 
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