Step 2 CS has been discontinued.

[Lawpy]

I think this type of comment panders to stereotypes and furthers the divide between AMG and IMG applicants. I'm sure plenty of international schools have phenomenal clinicals, and likewise, plenty of American schools are trash.

The key difference is the quality of US med schools is strictly regulated and standardized. Any violation will land the schools in probation or shut down. All US schools require OSCEs which all do a far better job than CS/PE.

There's no such standard for foreign schools and it's nearly impossible to tell which is good vs bad. It's too highly variable so CS is necessary for them. It's a waste for US grads.

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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It's the notion that it's superfluous in the first place is what I don't agree with. The exam wasn't removed because it had nominal/ostensible value. It was removed because Covid made it financially infeasible. It was just a business decision.

Dude, that test is superfluous for anyone who can speak English and communicate even to a basic level. Almost everyone passed. It was basically just a test to see if you had a few thousand dollars to spend.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The key difference is the quality of US med schools is strictly regulated and standardized. Any violation will land the schools in probation or shut down. All US schools require OSCEs which all do a far better job than CS/PE.

There's no such standard for foreign schools and it's nearly impossible to tell which is good vs bad. It's too highly variable so CS is necessary for them. It's a waste for US grads.

Yeah, like 28 people in my class failed our final OSCE because it was pretty challenging. And we had really good clinical skills training.

 

[Phloston]

The key difference is the quality of US med schools is strictly regulated and standardized. Any violation will land the schools in probation or shut down. All US schools require OSCEs which all do a far better job than CS/PE.

There's no such standard for foreign schools and it's nearly impossible to tell which is good vs bad. It's too highly variable so CS is necessary for them. It's a waste for US grads.

"The key difference is the quality of US med schools is strictly regulated and standardized"? Please. Your argument that all students coming out of US med schools attain a theoretically comparable degree of education is simply not true. The reasoning that CS is a "waste for US grads" could easily be applied to the MCQ exams as well if this were the case. Schools' variable OSCEs aren't superior to a more standardized 2CS the same way schools' variable MCQ exams aren't superior to the Step 1 and 2CK, which is why we need the latter two. The fact of the matter is, this was a business decision amid financial hardship and the infeasibility of carrying out the exam with social distancing.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

"The key difference is the quality of US med schools is strictly regulated and standardized"? Please. Your argument that all students coming out of US med schools attain a theoretically comparable degree of education is simply not true. The reasoning that CS is a "waste for US grads" could easily be applied to the MCQ exams as well if this were the case. Schools' variable OSCEs aren't superior to a more standardized 2CS the same way schools' variable MCQ exams aren't superior to the Step 1 and 2CK, which is why we need the latter two. The fact of the matter is, this was a business decision amid financial hardship and the infeasibility of carrying out the exam with social distancing.

You realize that the lcme standardizes medical education for MD students here right?

 

[Lawpy]

"The key difference is the quality of US med schools is strictly regulated and standardized"? Please. Your argument that all students coming out of US med schools attain a theoretically comparable degree of education is simply not true. The reasoning that CS is a "waste for US grads" could easily be applied to the MCQ exams as well if this were the case. Schools' variable OSCEs aren't superior to a more standardized 2CS the same way schools' variable MCQ exams aren't superior to the Step 1 and 2CK, which is why we need the latter two. The fact of the matter is, this was a business decision amid financial hardship and the infeasibility of carrying out the exam with social distancing.

Do you even know how US med schools work?

 

[Taddy Mason]

"The key difference is the quality of US med schools is strictly regulated and standardized"? Please. Your argument that all students coming out of US med schools attain a theoretically comparable degree of education is simply not true. The reasoning that CS is a "waste for US grads" could easily be applied to the MCQ exams as well if this were the case. Schools' variable OSCEs aren't superior to a more standardized 2CS the same way schools' variable MCQ exams aren't superior to the Step 1 and 2CK, which is why we need the latter two. The fact of the matter is, this was a business decision amid financial hardship and the infeasibility of carrying out the exam with social distancing.

You realize that the fail rate for US MD students on CS was between 1.5 - 3% until 2017 when the grading scheme was arbitrarily changed, mind you without objective reasoning or transparency, and even after that the fail rate for US MDs was only ~7%.

 

[Neopolymath]

I'm really disappointed in you guys taking the bait here.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm really disappointed in you guys taking the bait here.

I'm giving more respect/seriousness mainly due to old Step guides and posts

 

[slowthai]

You realize that the fail rate for US MD students on CS was between 1.5 - 3% until 2017 when the grading scheme was arbitrarily changed, mind you without objective reasoning or transparency, and even after that the fail rate for US MDs was only ~7%.

It was changed because those Harvard kids complained

 

[Lawpy]

It was changed because those Harvard kids complained

Harvard guys --> #EndStep2CS --> CS fail rate increases

Covid 19 and many small variants of concern ---> actually ends CS for good

Covid 19/variants of concern >>>>>>>>>> Harvard #EndStep2CS guys

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It was changed because those Harvard kids complained

New conspiracy theory. Covid was created at Harvard by pissed off med students to get rid of CS.

 

[Lawpy]

New conspiracy theory. Covid was created at Harvard by pissed off med students to get rid of CS.

That'd be interesting but those guys effectively stopped caring once they hit residency and were glad to succeed in their true goal of screwing over more med students

 

[Lawpy]

It's a sad state of affairs when covid 19 helped med students far more than other med students

 

[slowthai]

Harvard guys --> #EndStep2CS --> CS fail rate increases

Covid 19 and many small variants of concern ---> actually ends CS for good

Covid 19/variants of concern >>>>>>>>>> Harvard #EndStep2CS guys

What do you mean by variants of concern?

 

[Lawpy]

Med students rally to get rid of CS --> CS fail rate increases

Med students complain about Step 1 mania and exam stress --> Step 1 goes P/F --> much larger pressure on Step 2 CK that became far harder recently --> med students will complain about Step 2 CK mania --> Step 2 CK goes P/F

Leaving behind school rank and prestige as a major determining factor. Nice

 

[Lawpy]

What do you mean by variants of concern?

There's like 3 of them that came to US from UK/South Africa/Brazil with varying levels of vaccine resistance

 

[slowthai]

That'd be interesting but those guys effectively stopped caring once they hit residency and were glad to succeed in their true goal of screwing over more med students

Are you talking about the Harvard kids? They were trying to get rid of CS, and part of their reasoning was that it was too easy, so it was a waste of time (the exam is just a pure waste in and of itself honestly). So the NBME said "Ok let's make it harder then. Problem solved."

 

[Lawpy]

Are you talking about the Harvard kids? They were trying to get rid of CS, and part of their reasoning was that it was too easy, so it was a waste of time (the exam is just a pure waste in and of itself honestly). So the NBME said "Ok let's make it harder then. Problem solved."

Yeah, their reasoning was a load of crap and i suspect they did this deliberately to screw over other med students

 

[Taddy Mason]

I'm giving more respect/seriousness mainly due to old Step guides and posts

Big coffee drinker?

 

[slowthai]

Yeah, their reasoning was a load of crap and i suspect they did this deliberately to screw over other med students

Hmm. Interesting take.

 

[Lawpy]

Hmm. Interesting take.

They should've entirely focused on the ridiculous cost on top of redundancy because OSCEs cover the jobs far better than CS ever will. Instead, they complained CS was too easy and that motivated NBME to increase the fail rate. Why would anyone complain a standardized exam is too easy if it wasn't to sabotage others?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yeah, their reasoning was a load of crap and i suspect they did this deliberately to screw over other med students

Lol what?

 

[Lawpy]

Lol what?

They should've entirely focused on the ridiculous cost on top of redundancy because OSCEs cover the jobs far better than CS ever will. Instead, they complained CS was too easy and that motivated NBME to increase the fail rate. Why would anyone complain a standardized exam is too easy if it wasn't to sabotage others?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

They should've entirely focused on the ridiculous cost on top of redundancy because OSCEs cover the jobs far better than CS ever will. Instead, they complained CS was too easy and that motivated NBME to increase the fail rate. Why would anyone complain a standardized exam is too easy if it wasn't to sabotage others?

Probably because the cost argument wouldn’t get anywhere. If the nbme cared about what the cost did to med students, they wouldn’t have charged $1300 for the exam.

 

[Lawpy]

Probably because the cost argument wouldn’t get anywhere. If the nbme cared about what the cost did to med students, they wouldn’t have charged $1300 for the exam.

It's cost + waste of time when that can be used for interviews/aways/electives + redundant because OSCEs sufficiently cover the job well.

There was zero reason to complain the exam was easy. Who does that?

 

[slowthai]

They should've entirely focused on the ridiculous cost on top of redundancy because OSCEs cover the jobs far better than CS ever will. Instead, they complained CS was too easy and that motivated NBME to increase the fail rate. Why would anyone complain a standardized exam is too easy if it wasn't to sabotage others?

Idk man, seems far fetched. I mean, the whole idea behind meeting with the NBME was to get rid of it. Secondly, they would be gunning down themselves and subsequent classes. I'm not seeing your logic here.

 

[slowthai]

It's cost + waste of time when that can be used for interviews/aways/electives + redundant because OSCEs sufficiently cover the job well.

There was zero reason to complain the exam was easy. Who does that?

I agree with this. It's just *****ic. I think it just comes down to sheer poor judgement. I don't think they were gunning

 

[Lawpy]

Idk man, seems far fetched. I mean, the whole idea behind meeting with the NBME was to get rid of it. Secondly, they would be gunning down themselves and subsequent classes. I'm not seeing your logic here.

They tried to get rid of it by complaining it's too easy? That makes zero sense and is completely counterproductive. I don't think this is ignorance on their part.

Instead of mentioning about redundancy or even strongly asserting the exam was meant to screen IMGs/FMGs not US grads because US schools have their policies to make sure their students graduate with necessary skills, they fixated on the easy part.

 

[Lawpy]

I agree with this. It's just *****ic. I think it just comes down to sheer poor judgement. I don't think they were gunning

I know i sound like a jerk but after seeing med students arguments for Step 1 P/F that set the domino effect for Step 2 CK being way harder and soon probably going P/F, i can't attribute this to ignorance or bad judgement alone. Maybe self serving sure.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I know i sound like a jerk but after seeing med students arguments for Step 1 P/F that set the domino effect for Step 2 CK being way harder and soon probably going P/F, i can't attribute this to ignorance or bad judgement alone. Maybe self serving sure.

Yeah you’re oddly adamant here. I honestly think it comes from being at Harvard. Those guys are so high up the ivory tower they think anything they say will be taken as gospel. I think they came up with an argument and legitimately thought it would succeed. Getting rid of CS would help everyone, and it’s not like they only failed people from state schools.

 

[slowthai]

They tried to get rid of it by complaining it's too easy? That makes zero sense and is completely counterproductive. I don't think this is ignorance on their part.

Instead of mentioning about redundancy or even strongly asserting the exam was meant to screen IMGs/FMGs not US grads because US schools have their policies to make sure their students graduate with necessary skills, they fixated on the easy part.

I know i sound like a jerk but after seeing med students arguments for Step 1 P/F that set the domino effect for Step 2 CK being way harder and soon probably going P/F, i can't attribute this to ignorance or bad judgement alone. Maybe self serving sure.

Yeah, I would say that something's definitely not adding up. I'll admit that I don't know the whole story, so I'll just stop speculating, lol

 

[Lawpy]

Yeah you’re oddly adamant here. I honestly think it comes from being at Harvard. Those guys are so high up the ivory tower they think anything they say will be taken as gospel. I think they came up with an argument and legitimately thought it would succeed. Getting rid of CS would help everyone, and it’s not like they only failed people from state schools.

Yeah, I would say that something's definitely not adding up. I'll admit that I don't know the whole story, so I'll just stop speculating, lol

Idk maybe i'm just salty that the Harvard guys basically set the stage with higher CS fail rates and Step 1 going P/F with bad decisions. Step 1 P/F obviously benefits them a lot. But i really think they had a better foresight to avoid complaining things like CS is too easy.

 

[slowthai]

Yeah you’re oddly adamant here. I honestly think it comes from being at Harvard. Those guys are so high up the ivory tower they think anything they say will be taken as gospel. I think they came up with an argument and legitimately thought it would succeed. Getting rid of CS would help everyone, and it’s not like they only failed people from state schools.

They think they're so special loool. The amount of think pieces from those elite schools advocating for step 1 going p/f and dumb stuff like that makes me want to vomit

 

[Lawpy]

They think they're so special loool. The amount of think pieces from those elite schools advocating for step 1 going p/f and dumb stuff like that makes me want to vomit

Honestly if they never complained, ironically everyone would be better off.

 

[Lawpy]

If Step 1 goes back to scored, will NBME get more revenue?

 

[Pier]

I know i sound like a jerk but after seeing med students arguments for Step 1 P/F that set the domino effect for Step 2 CK being way harder and soon probably going P/F, i can't attribute this to ignorance or bad judgement alone. Maybe self serving sure.

Wait what? If that happens, how will they distinguish between different students AT ALL? Is it possible they'll come up with a new/different exame to give residency programs a new tool to select?

 

[Lawpy]

Wait what? If that happens, how will they distinguish between different students AT ALL? Is it possible they'll come up with a new/different exame to give residency programs a new tool to select?

No one knows. The SDN theory is school prestige will be king

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If Step 1 goes back to scored, will NBME get more revenue?

It won’t. And since you couldn’t retake if you passed, it’s not like people were retaking anyway. They shouldn’t really see an appreciable change. Maybe more IMGs will take it if it’s just p/f.

 

[Lawpy]

It won’t. And since you couldn’t retake if you passed, it’s not like people were retaking anyway. They shouldn’t really see an appreciable change. Maybe more IMGs will take it if it’s just p/f.

Ok lets make Step 2 CK P/F since that's going to be inevitable. I think people should face the reality of the situation when scores go away

 

[sunshinefl]

I could see their argument of “why bother with CS if 99% pass.”

Step 1 should remain scored. Going P/F was a stupid decision but alas that’s already in motion.

 

[Lawpy]

I could see their argument of “why bother with CS if 99% pass.”

Step 1 should remain scored. Going P/F was a stupid decision but alas that’s already in motion.

Yeah but it's idiotic to complain about high pass rates to NBME. Somehow the Harvard guys royally messed up, and i honestly wish they never complained in the first place.

The Harvard guys gave everyone higher CS fail rates AND Step 1 P/F. Thanks HMS students

 

[NotAProgDirector]

If Step 1 goes back to scored, will NBME get more revenue?

Interestingly, yes. Changing to P/F will probably cost the NBME lots of money. Because (I believe?) they sold practice tests. People took tons of practice tests. With P/F, that's likely to drop.

 

[Med Ed]

The Harvard guys gave everyone higher CS fail rates AND Step 1 P/F. Thanks HMS students

It wasn't the Harvard guys who gave us P/F Step 1. If you want to pin it on any particular group, it was the student affairs deans.

 

[slowthai]

Interestingly, yes. Changing to P/F will probably cost the NBME lots of money. Because (I believe?) they sold practice tests. People took tons of practice tests. With P/F, that's likely to drop.

They do the same for step 2, so they should have no problem making up for it, lol

 

[Lawpy]

It wasn't the Harvard guys who gave us P/F Step 1. If you want to pin it on any particular group, it was the student affairs deans.

Wait that reminds me. How did the student affairs deans respond to CS cancellation?

 

[Med Ed]

Interestingly, yes. Changing to P/F will probably cost the NBME lots of money. Because (I believe?) they sold practice tests. People took tons of practice tests. With P/F, that's likely to drop.

The NBME seems to have suddenly realized that everyone hates it.

 

[Med Ed]

Wait that reminds me. How did the student affairs deans respond to CS cancellation?

100% of the reactions I have seen have been pure joy.

Edit: In fact, I have yet to see anyone express sorrow over CS's demise. There appears to be universal agreement that it was, at best, an expensive waste of everyone's time.

 

[Gern Blansten]

100% of the reactions I have seen have been pure joy.

Edit: In fact, I have yet to see anyone express sorrow over CS's demise. There appears to be universal agreement that it was, at best, an expensive waste of everyone's time.

I believe some USMLE Step II CS review course people are pretty devastated...

 

[Med Ed]

I believe some USMLE Step II CS review course people are pretty devastated...

To Hell with 'em.