Still Some Bias Against DOs

[2021Doctor]

Unfortunately there is still some bias against DOs.
Read this post from a radiology PD with dismay:
6. Our residency essentially filters out applicants who are IMGs—to be honest, I think there are some outstanding candidates in this group particularly from those individuals who are not from the US, but the problem is that it is really difficult to find those for me because we don’t use test scores as much in our ranking process. Communication skills are very important to us, and that can be a sticking point for some IMGs who did not grow up in the US that we don’t understand until the interview, and I don’t want to waste people’s time with interviews if there is a low chance of success. On the other hand, we understand there are some life circumstances and other legitimate reasons why some applicants who are US based ended up doing medical school internationally. So I download these into my spreadsheet, dig deeper at maybe the candidates with board scores above 250 to see if I recognize the school, review publications, special experiences, special circumstances, etc. Sometimes a colleague will ask me to look carefully at a person that someone in their field has highlighted for them. We do interview a few IMGs every year (< 5), and some are quite good. However, they face hurdles all along the way in our ranking process—just being honest.

7. We do the same as #6 for DO candidates. We do interview a few every year (< 3), but we believe there is a penalty for our program in future applicants if we have a number of DO residents, mainly because there is the perception that we couldn’t attract the best MD candidates. It’s unfortunate for some DO students who are going to be great, but it is reality.

Trying to be as honest as possible. Here are the problems for our program with respect to most DO applicants and certainly all IMG applicants:
1. The perception (again, perception) that we struggled to fill the program if a number of our residents are DO/IMG. Without trying to give away too much, I'm not at Mallinckrodt--my program isn't one of those 15+ residents/year beasts that can have an IMG or DO and everyone decides "dang, that person must be awesome"--instead, for us, because we have a smaller program, the impression will be, "why couldn't they fill with AMGs". Realize that this is not just a perception among applicants--I'd have explain to all my faculty (none of whom are DOs) that we really wanted this DO--they are going to think we had a bad Match.
2. More importantly (seriously)--the DO schools do a terrible job stratifying their medical students. This is the real problem I have with understanding how to asses my DO applicants. Even worse for the IMGs. More than 50% of a typical DO class (sometimes 80%, it seems to me) get "straight A's" in the clinical years. The written commentaries on performance are woefully short (one sentence, maybe two). I don't know the radiologists that have worked with them, so I don't get any familiar letters that would boost an applicant. Many of the radiology departments that the DOs have worked in aren't particularly academic, so they haven't impressed in research. Since I really don't care if you get a 240 or a 270 on your USMLE, it becomes that much harder for me to be impressed by a DO student who got 270 on their boards (by the way, I do care if you get less than 240, so please do as well as possible on your USMLE). Even though we purposefully "overinterview", I have far more applicants than individuals I can invite. If you are a DO, your best bet to get into my residency would be to have an advocate that I'm familiar with call me and tell me you walk on water. I'd happily go to bat for you then, with my faculty and with future applicants.



Radiology Faculty--Answering Questions/"AMA"

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[DOFOSHO]

sounds like a person most people wouldn't want to work for, DO or MD.

also, anyone who starts a "Look at me. I'm a ____. Ask me anything." thread is a total egotistical c### bag.

 

[Mass Effect]

That radiology program sounds like they struggle with a very real thing called ego and vanity. His problem is having to explain to his faculty?? Why is he hiring such snotty faculty that would raise a snit that a perfectly qualified doctor was hired just because he/she happens to be a DO? Sounds like a program to avoid, frankly.

Also, I don't know what DO programs he's looking at, but at my DO school, only 10 percent of the class honored any rotation. In fact, this was a huge point of contention for me because my MD counterparts seemed to give half the class honors IF they earned it, whereas my school refused to give more than 10 percent honors per rotation.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

7. We do the same as #6 for DO candidates. We do interview a few every year (< 3), but we believe there is a penalty for our program in future applicants if we have a number of DO residents, mainly because there is the perception that we couldn’t attract the best MD candidates. It’s unfortunate for some DO students who are going to be great, but it is reality

Some of my MD friends said this was a thing when their colleagues were deciding programs to rank. Apparently a program with several DOs has a “reputation”. Whatever that means.

 

[Goro]

Unfortunately there is still some bias against DOs.
Read this post from a radiology PD with dismay:

7. We do the same as #6 for DO candidates. We do interview a few every year (< 3), but we believe there is a penalty for our program in future applicants if we have a number of DO residents, mainly because there is the perception that we couldn’t attract the best MD candidates. It’s unfortunate for some DO students who are going to be great, but it is reality.

Trying to be as honest as possible. Here are the problems for our program with respect to most DO applicants and certainly all IMG applicants:
1. The perception (again, perception) that we struggled to fill the program if a number of our residents are DO/IMG. Without trying to give away too much, I'm not at Mallinckrodt--my program isn't one of those 15+ residents/year beasts that can have an IMG or DO and everyone decides "dang, that person must be awesome"--instead, for us, because we have a smaller program, the impression will be, "why couldn't they fill with AMGs". Realize that this is not just a perception among applicants--I'd have explain to all my faculty (none of whom are DOs) that we really wanted this DO--they are going to think we had a bad Match.
2. More importantly (seriously)--the DO schools do a terrible job stratifying their medical students. This is the real problem I have with understanding how to asses my DO applicants. Even worse for the IMGs. More than 50% of a typical DO class (sometimes 80%, it seems to me) get "straight A's" in the clinical years. The written commentaries on performance are woefully short (one sentence, maybe two). I don't know the radiologists that have worked with them, so I don't get any familiar letters that would boost an applicant. Many of the radiology departments that the DOs have worked in aren't particularly academic, so they haven't impressed in research. Since I really don't care if you get a 240 or a 270 on your USMLE, it becomes that much harder for me to be impressed by a DO student who got 270 on their boards (by the way, I do care if you get less than 240, so please do as well as possible on your USMLE). Even though we purposefully "overinterview", I have far more applicants than individuals I can invite. If you are a DO, your best bet to get into my residency would be to have an advocate that I'm familiar with call me and tell me you walk on water. I'd happily go to bat for you then, with my faculty and with future applicants.



Radiology Faculty--Answering Questions/"AMA"

I've been looking for that post for some time! He has a few valid points, but the stench of elitism leaves me gagging.

 

[acapnial]

The bias against DO's sucks, but at many, many residency programs as a DO applicant you come with doubt you have to erase and MD applicants get benefit of doubt. Better get used to it.

sounds like a person most people wouldn't want to work for, DO or MD.

also, anyone who starts a "Look at me. I'm a ____. Ask me anything." thread is a total egotistical c### bag.

He's being helpful by showing how he makes interview decisions and forms a rank list. Wish more PD's would do the same.

 

[alprazoslam]

At least he’s honest but he sounds like a turd. If I was going into something somewhat competitive I’d prob call programs and ask if they take DOs and then ask what usmle score would change their mind if they didn’t. If they said it wouldn’t I’d just hang up and call the next. But honestly I’ll Take my 270+ elsewhere if he/others dont care for DOs

Next

Only top programs/some super competitive specialties have an unlimited supply of super good applicants so the run of the mill (funny thing is this guys program sounds run of the mill but he makes it sound like they lay gold bricks out there) want the best they can get

 

[Dwan]

Some of my MD friends said this was a thing when their colleagues were deciding programs to rank. Apparently a program with several DOs has a “reputation”. Whatever that means.

A few years ago, one PD at a California EM program (that doesn't have DOs) stated that they interviewed a stellar DO candidate who they really loved, but were hesitant to take them due to how it would hurt their reputation. (said people would think if they took a DO this year, the program must be on a downward trend)

 

[Dwan]

At least he’s honest but he sounds like a turd. If I was going into something somewhat competitive I’d prob call programs and ask if they take DOs and then ask what usmle score would change their mind if they didn’t. If they said it wouldn’t I’d just hang up and call the next. But honestly I’ll Take my 270+ elsewhere if he/others dont care for DOs

Next

Only top programs/some super competitive specialties have an unlimited supply of super good applicants so the run of the mill (funny thing is this guys program sounds run of the mill but he makes it sound like they lay gold bricks out there) want the best they can get

I don't know what field you're applying but honestly with your scores, if your app is otherwise solid and you're willing to spend the money, you may be the first to break the barriers at some places. I was surprised to see a few DOs and even carribs at some top 25 IM programs I interviewed at, that have no DOs (no clue how they'll be ranked, but it's a step). One stellar DO with similar scores to you and little research interviewed at University of Washington for IM, but they didn't get in (dropped to a low-mid tier uni).

 

[Trollest]

Couldn't pm you but how did you study for step?
270 + is kind of unheard of

At least he’s honest but he sounds like a turd. If I was going into something somewhat competitive I’d prob call programs and ask if they take DOs and then ask what usmle score would change their mind if they didn’t. If they said it wouldn’t I’d just hang up and call the next. But honestly I’ll Take my 270+ elsewhere if he/others dont care for DOs

Next

Only top programs/some super competitive specialties have an unlimited supply of super good applicants so the run of the mill (funny thing is this guys program sounds run of the mill but he makes it sound like they lay gold bricks out there) want the best they can get

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Read the following in a Frank Underwood accent.

“See I have no problems with DOs. In fact, I had me one when I was a child. So clearly I am not an elitist! But I do have to put my foot down when I comes to hiring those osteopaths... The idea of mixing our MD heritage with a bunch quacks is just downright unacceptable. Their neck cracking and low impact publications would pollute our image, no, our identities! I’m not saying they cannot practice medicine. No, definitely not that... What I am saying, is keep them in their own hospitals with their own kind! Separate but equal... Is that too much to ask?”

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Read the following in a Frank Underwood accent.

“See I have no problems with DOs. In fact, I had me one when I was a child. So clearly I am not an elitist! But I do have to put my foot down when I comes to hiring those osteopaths... The idea of mixing our MD heritage with a bunch quacks is just downright unacceptable. Their neck cracking and low impact publications would pollute our image, no, our identities! I’m not saying they cannot practice medicine. No, definitely not that... What I am saying, is keep them in their own hospitals with their own kind! Separate but equal... Is that too much to ask?”

Gold all Gold. Especially in that accent.

 

[jw3600]

Perception matters. Sucks but it what it is. These PD's have a point. Many people are stupid and will think a program is bad/new/declining based off DO percentage. Even if you print the USMLE score with the percentile right next to said DO name. We're all still human.

 

[deleted950463]

That radiologyPD has been a stellar presence in the radiology forum and honestly he is just saying it like it is. Truth hurts, but is it bias, or it’s just business?

Remember, this PD isn’t the bad guy. He is just trying to match the best candidates out there, and many of those people would avoid going to programs that have DOs.

I imagine that PD is at a program that is smaller, less name brand but often matches well, just outside of top 10 but within tier 1 with a smaller complement of residents.

This is just a reality of what 2020 will bring. Eventually, the new DO schools waterdown the brand and we will be firmly regarded as primary care and rural service physicians.

 

[DOFOSHO]

That radiologyPD has been a stellar presence in the radiology forum

That guy speaks for his own radiology program. Very very few people, even among wannabe elite radiology PDs, are THAT neurotic and anal about stupid little details.

Its good to have people who are willing to share that information about their program - but he is speaking about HIS program, not radiology programs in general. Most are not as anal retentive as his.

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

If that PD is being honest about his reasoning (and I have no reason to think he isn't) then I really don't blame him.

 

[libertyyne]

Seriously? Has no one has ever looked at a residency program in a specialty and seen more than two IMGs in it and thought, hmm might be less competitive than a residency program full of t-5s?

 

[ortnakas]

Sad but a reflection of the current state of affairs, not an indictment of this individual (although reading it in the Frank Underwood voice does give it a laughably ominous tone, thanks for that post).

I'm a DO resident at a former-AOA program, and even I was suspicious at another interview last year when all residents and interviewees were either DOs or IMGs. As an applicant, I tended to look for programs that had enough DOs to indicate they were actually going to consider me, but not so many that it indicated MDs didn't want to go there for some reason. The goldilocks principle of DO-friendliness, I suppose.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

Sad but a reflection of the current state of affairs, not an indictment of this individual (although reading it in the Frank Underwood voice does give it a laughably ominous tone, thanks for that post).

I'm a DO resident at a former-AOA program, and even I was suspicious at another interview last year when all residents and interviewees were either DOs or IMGs. As an applicant, I tended to look for programs that had enough DOs to indicate they were actually going to consider me, but not so many that it indicated MDs didn't want to go there for some reason. The goldilocks principle of DO-friendliness, I suppose.

I actually think you hit the nail on the head. Med students are a mix of MD and DO and so too should be residencies. When they are made up of all one type of degree you start to think that maybe they compromised the principle of best man or woman for the job, and instead have some ulterior motive. We all know of highly competitive DOs who are up there with some of the highly competitive MD students, and I think the presence of one or two in a program actually speaks to a program trying to take the best applicants they can find. All MDs reeks of an old boys club mentality, even if that was not the case. All DOs or IMGs reeks of non-competitive residency, again, even if that was not the case. I respect the hell out of programs like UW Ortho or plastics because the dudes that matched there must have been ballers and the program could look past perceptions to match the best people for the job.

 

[libertyyne]

I actually think you hit the nail on the head. Med students are a mix of MD and DO and so too should be residencies. When they are made up of all one type of degree you start to think that maybe they compromised the principle of best man or woman for the job, and instead have some ulterior motive. We all know of highly competitive DOs who are up there with some of the highly competitive MD students, and I think the presence of one or two in a program actually speaks to a program trying to take the best applicants they can find. All MDs reeks of an old boys club mentality, even if that was not the case. All DOs or IMGs reeks of non-competitive residency, again, even if that was not the case. I respect the hell out of programs like UW Ortho or plastics because the dudes that matched there must have been ballers and the program could look past perceptions to match the best people for the job.

although i agree in principle, There are many more factors. regional selection where there are not a whole lot of DO schools, self selection where a large number of DO's go to pc because they want to, and residencies that seek things that are uncommon in the DO pool like extensive bench research etc.

 

[FourniersGreenGang]

although i agree in principle, There are many more factors. regional selection where there are not a whole lot of DO schools, self selection where a large number of DO's go to pc because they want to, and residencies that seek things that are uncommon in the DO pool like extensive bench research etc.

Oh for sure. I'm more talking about perceptions rather than what the reason actually is. Tons of my classmates have been gung ho PC since day one. The populations are definitely different.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I suspect that the PDs program is not as stellar as they think they are. Programs are ranked by scholarly activity, clinical research, and community service. NIH money is a factor. If taking number of IMGs or DOs is a threat to their reputation, their reputation must not be that solid. Note many highly ranked programs take DOs and have DO faculty.

 

[nimbus]

The bias is not just at the back end (residency). Where do the most highly qualified premeds go? It’s starts early and is self perpetuating.

 

[DarkHorizon]

He can have his program, a DO with 270s will have many many good programs happy to have them.

Please stop spending so much energy on this negativity. Just embrace the reality and instead spend all the energy on putting yourself in the best position to get the spot you want.

Also, if it’s prestige you wanted, you’re in the wrong profession. Should have gone to the ivory towers. But if you want to practice medicine and help people get better while making a comfortable living, that door is still open.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

The bias is not just at the back end (residency). Where do the most highly qualified premeds go? It’s starts early and is self perpetuating.

You're absolutely right. The MDs also do it to each other. The ivory tower grads cant wait to tell you where they trained

 

[nimbus]

You're absolutely right. The MDs also do it to each other. The ivory tower grads cant wait to tell you where they trained

Tell me about it...lol

“Back at The General......”
“Back at The Clinic.....”

 

[_Rod_of_Asclepius_]

Oh man this was my top choice program! Darn! #sarcasmlevelover9000

 

[235009]

sounds like a person most people wouldn't want to work for, DO or MD.

also, anyone who starts a "Look at me. I'm a ____. Ask me anything." thread is a total egotistical c### bag.

That radiology program sounds like they struggle with a very real thing called ego and vanity. His problem is having to explain to his faculty?? Why is he hiring such snotty faculty that would raise a snit that a perfectly qualified doctor was hired just because he/she happens to be a DO? Sounds like a program to avoid, frankly.

Also, I don't know what DO programs he's looking at, but at my DO school, only 10 percent of the class honored any rotation. In fact, this was a huge point of contention for me because my MD counterparts seemed to give half the class honors IF they earned it, whereas my school refused to give more than 10 percent honors per rotation.

At least he’s honest but he sounds like a turd. If I was going into something somewhat competitive I’d prob call programs and ask if they take DOs and then ask what usmle score would change their mind if they didn’t. If they said it wouldn’t I’d just hang up and call the next. But honestly I’ll Take my 270+ elsewhere if he/others dont care for DOs

Next

Only top programs/some super competitive specialties have an unlimited supply of super good applicants so the run of the mill (funny thing is this guys program sounds run of the mill but he makes it sound like they lay gold bricks out there) want the best they can get

 

[deleted950463]

The truth is that this radiology PD doesn’t care what we DO student think of it because he mostly won’t interview us, won’t match us and won’t work with us.

 

[Rekt]

The truth is that this radiology PD doesn’t care what we DO student think of it because he mostly won’t interview us, won’t match us and won’t work with us.

It doesn't matter. This is one guy, but there are many like him. I have an extremely competitive EM application and still got ghosted by a lot of upper tier places. Of course none had the balls to reject me and still have haven't. The bias is very real. You'll be interviewing with MDs who have scores much much lower than yours for the same boring average tier program.

There may have eventually been some decreasing bias, but now with all these new DO schools with extremely inferior middle of nowhere rotations it will just keep getting worse after places see how weak some of the students are.

 

[alprazoslam]

Wat lol. I don’t want to go to a top program anyway. If I did I would have waited a year and applied md. My gpa and mcat were better than most md students but staying home saved me tons of $$$$&$$$ and more importantly time.

But yeah anybody wanting top teir stuff should go md and not cry after the fact if that’s what your giffy is leaning toward

 

[alprazoslam]

It doesn't matter. This is one guy, but there are many like him. I have an extremely competitive EM application and still got ghosted by a lot of upper tier places. Of course none had the balls to reject me and still have haven't. The bias is very real. You'll be interviewing with MDs who have scores much much lower than yours for the same boring average tier program.

There may have eventually been some decreasing bias, but now with all these new DO schools with extremely inferior middle of nowhere rotations it will just keep getting worse after places see how weak some of the students are.

Honestly I’d prob be biased slightly too knowing that md rotations are better if I was. Pd.

I wouldn’t take somebody w a 220 over 260 but all else equal 260 do vs 250md. It’s a tough call w some do rotations sucking as much balls as they do.
Who do you want somebody with two years of residency team with you or another coming from a preceptor based randomness rotation site

 

[_Rod_of_Asclepius_]

Bias will exist forever no matter what. Just overheard an Ortho the other day talking about a DPM he has worked with who’s technical ability of reconstructing the foot/ankle is second to none. I’m sure other Orthos out there would never even consider that a possibility.

 

[Anicetus]

My PD at my mid tier IM program barely even interviews DO’s (none this year at least) not because they don’t find them unworthy, but mostly because when you have a university program in a desirable location you get flooded with too many MD applicants as it is and then there’s the headache of the staff having to learn about how to weigh in the DO school prestige factor. This is the case now for CA midtier IM programs, as well those in NYC and (infamously DO unfriendly) Boston simply because of the location. Unfortunately also exists for newer MD schools. If my PD has never heard of it, they won’t go out of their way to open the file and learn about them. Part of the problem is also applicants are applying to way too many programs for residency now.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

...not because they don’t find them unworthy...

Meaning DOs ARE unworthy?


Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[Ho0v-man]

Ow...my feelings...

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I mean, come on guys. I'm a DO going to a historical ACGME program for radiology and even I thought, "Wait, there are two DOs and an IMG in my class? Is there something wrong with this program that I didn't know?" There are both legitimate and illegitimate reasons for an anti-DO bias bit it's real and persistent for now.

The abovementioned thread is nothing but straightforward and honest... and the point of view given is par for the course for a MD PD assessing a DO for competitive specialties at competitive programs. There are some good points to take away. 1) Boards matter a lot, but only to a point. 2) Who you know matters a lot. Build connections and don't be afraid to leverage them. And finally, 3) DO students are NOT on level ground with MD students when it comes to matching at the vast majority of programs. It's just the fact of it right now. I certainly don't think any applicant should decided to go to a DO program under the assumption that there won't be a 'bias' against them (and I'm not sure why you're at all surprised that there is still a bias). The point of view expressed in the initial post is representative of my experiences with PDs at many mid-tier programs.

 

[Neopolymath]

Aside from this guy sounding like a weak leader, he seems to display pretty uncontroversial human behaviors. The reality is that money and doing the suboptimal but perfectly acceptable thing to avoid more work/conflict/energy is something all of us do every day. Most of us just don't have a bunch of hardworking people's futures in own hands...

 

[deleted950463]

Aside from this guy sounding like a weak leader, he seems to display pretty uncontroversial human behaviors. The reality is that money and doing the suboptimal but perfectly acceptable thing to avoid more work/conflict/energy is something all of us do every day. Most of us just don't have a bunch of hardworking people's futures in own hands...

At some institutions, PD/APD are occupied by junior faculties. There is nothing “weak” about a junior guy whose performance in recruitment is measured by senior faculty by how few DO he matches.

 

[Neopolymath]

At some institutions, PD/APD are occupied by junior faculties. There is nothing “weak” about a junior guy whose performance in recruitment is measured by senior faculty by how few DO he matches.

That's great and all, but not how the post reads. It doesn't come off like he has to answer these people in a meaningful way. It comes off like my rubber stamp dean or an individual who does something to avoid having to answer to their spouse to avoid making something an exhausting "thing."

 

[deleted950463]

That's great and all, but not how the post reads. It doesn't come off like he has to answer these people in a meaningful way. It comes off like my rubber stamp dean or an individual who does something to avoid having to answer to their spouse to avoid making something an exhausting "thing."

So imagine you, as a DO student, is in charge of a premed experience group made up by high school students. You are responsible for presenting the annual roster of this high school student group to your dean and future residency directors who is responsible for your promotion.

You know that one local high school is regarded as elite and the other one is regarded as low quality. You know that your DO school dean and future residency directors do not care about the SAT score of high school student you recruit, only the place which where they are from because that’s the only thing visible about them on the roster.

If you do a good job, you think it’ll help you get good residency spot. You know that if you have a roster made up of as many students as possible from the elite school, you’ll look good in front of the deans.

There is literally no reason for you to recruit anyone from the “bad” high school.

Perhaps now you understand. We matters as much to those junior faculties as a high school student to you and their chairman and section chief matter as much as your future PDs, if not more.

Department chair or section chiefs are NOT like a junior faculty’s spouse, but more like their boss.

 

[Neopolymath]

So imagine you, as a DO student, is in charge of a premed experience group made up by high school students. You are responsible for presenting the annual roster of this high school student group to your dean and future residency directors who is responsible for your promotion.

You know that one local high school is regarded as elite and the other one is regarded as low quality. You know that your DO school dean and future residency directors do not care about the SAT score of high school student you recruit, only the place which where they are from because that’s the only thing visible about them on the roster.

If you do a good job, you think it’ll help you get good residency spot. You know that if you have a roster made up of as many students as possible from the elite school, you’ll look good in front of the deans.

There is literally no reason for you to recruit anyone from the “bad” high school.

Perhaps now you understand. We matters as much to those junior faculties as a high school student to you and their chairman and section chief matter as much as your future PDs, if not more.

Department chair or section chiefs are NOT like a junior faculty’s spouse, but more like their boss.

Simmer down, bud. Maybe you missed the part where I said he wasn't being controversial in his actions. I, for one, don't care if this guy doesn't accept DO students for whatever reason. That doesn't change that his post comes off weak because of his wording.

Are you one of those over-explainers that ironically doesn't actually read what the other person actually said?

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

There is literally no reason for you to recruit anyone from the “bad” high school.

Here is a haiku I wrote just for you!


“Things that have no spine.

Starfish, this P.D, and you.

Excuses for bias thrive.”

I’m not sure if your helping the PD’s cause or illuminating how the PD’s inability to lead and garner respect from their peers perpetuates discrimination...

Cool, DO bias is alive and well... I accept its presence... and I think everyone on this thread accepts it. But the day I don’t resist or pushback against discrimination in any of its forms, welp, that’s the day I’ll change my name to “Sir Nutless”!

 

[deleted950463]

Here is a haiku I wrote just for you!


“Things that have no spine.

Starfish, this P.D, and you.

Excuses for bias thrive.”

I’m not sure if your helping the PD’s cause or illuminating how the PD’s inability to lead and garner respect from their peers perpetuates discrimination...

Cool, DO bias is alive and well... I accept its presence... and I think everyone on this thread accepts it. But the day I don’t resist or pushback against discrimination in any of its forms, welp, that’s the day I’ll change my name to “Sir Nutless”!

Still failed to see why not recruiting DO is inability to lead. Why would this PD recruit students that in the average to be inferiorly trained and inferiorly performing and how does recruitment of DOs translate to “leadership”?

 

[SLC]

Still failed to see why not recruiting DO is inability to lead. Why would this PD recruit students that in the average to be inferiorly trained and inferiorly performing and how does recruitment of DOs translate to “leadership”?

Your post doesn’t read well. What do you mean when you say “students that in the average to be inferiorly trained and inferiorly performing”. I think I know and I think you’re wrong. Your first point (that DO’s are inferiorly trained) is arguable, but the second just isn’t at all in my experience.

Regardless, I think the implication you ask about is that it’s poor leadership to be beholden to the imagined perceptions of others, and not selecting otherwise very qualified applicants that you’d like to take due to being worried about what people in the future may or may not think about it.

A real leader does what he/she knows is best, and doesn’t worry about how others might perceive said actions. A true, confident, leader doesn’t even feel the need to worry about perception; he/she sets the tone for others to follow, not the other way around.

 

[deleted950463]

Your post doesn’t read well. What do you mean when you say “students that in the average to be inferiorly trained and inferiorly performing”. I think I know and I think you’re wrong. Your first point (that DO’s are inferiorly trained) is arguable, but the second just isn’t at all in my experience.

Regardless, I think the implication you ask about is that it’s poor leadership to be beholden to the imagined perceptions of others, and not selecting otherwise very qualified applicants that you’d like to take due to being worried about what people in the future may or may not think about it.

A real leader does what he/she knows is best, and doesn’t worry about how others might perceive said actions. A true, confident, leader doesn’t even feel the need to worry about perception; he/she sets the tone for others to follow, not the other way around.

SLC, as Someone who was a DO student yourself you should be familiar with the clinical education I see my upper classmates are getting. They are nothing comparable to what the MDs in my family got. I’ve also been told by multiple people that my cohorts often struggle more in residency due to the poor clinical training, which often consist of just shadowing and lack significant experience in an inpatient environment.

I think this is more than perception. I simply don’t think we are equalivant candidates even if we have similar USMLE scores given the clinical education problem.

A problem that will only get worse with those new schools.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Struggle during residency due to poor clinical training? Is it possible to elaborate? Most first year residents are eyes and ears only. Go see the patient and report to more senior resident/ attending. You would have to have been asleep during medical school to lack the basic skills necessary to do that. PGY 1s dont have primary care responsibilities, they are supervised. MDs have crappy rotations too. I can attest to that. No senior resident will let you putin a chest tube or central line unless they have observed you and you have been checked off . Are some rotations crappy at newer schools? I have no doubt. What useful information does the student on CV surgery learn? Mostly how to sew up the leg. It's cool to be there, but not so great overall experience. OB, Male students get routinely kicked out of the room at many hospitals. Happened to my son routinely at an MD facility. The risk of new schools DO and MD, is that they are trying to get their programs set up and suffer from growing pains. Caveat emptor New Schools, MD or DO

 

[Goro]

Still failed to see why not recruiting DO is inability to lead. Why would this PD recruit students that in the average to be inferiorly trained and inferiorly performing and how does recruitment of DOs translate to “leadership”?

That's not alhis motivation. His rationale, which he clearly stated, was that he didn't want to be seen as a bad program by elitist candidates.

A way of fighting this bias if somebody has a DO in their program, they could say "we only recruit Superstar DOs"

EDIT SLC said it far better than I did

 

[WedgeDawg]

Just a reminder to please keep your posts respectful and professional. There is no need for rude comments or personal attacks.

 

[deleted950463]

Struggle during residency due to poor clinical training? Is it possible to elaborate? Most first year residents are eyes and ears only. Go see the patient and report to more senior resident/ attending. You would have to have been asleep during medical school to lack the basic skills necessary to do that. PGY 1s dont have primary care responsibilities, they are supervised. MDs have crappy rotations too. I can attest to that. No senior resident will let you putin a chest tube or central line unless they have observed you and you have been checked off . Are some rotations crappy at newer schools? I have no doubt. What useful information does the student on CV surgery learn? Mostly how to sew up the leg. It's cool to be there, but not so great overall experience. OB, Male students get routinely kicked out of the room at many hospitals. Happened to my son routinely at an MD facility. The risk of new schools DO and MD, is that they are trying to get their programs set up and suffer from growing pains. Caveat emptor New Schools, MD or DO

One of my family member is an MD in radiology. I’ve seen and heard stories about DOs in her internship and residency first hand.

Let’s keep the discussion civil and respectful guys.

I guess SLC didn’t match, scrambled, finished FM residency and is now an attending. I’ll make sure to edit my post to reflect that.