Still Some Bias Against DOs

[deleted950463]

Maybe your sister is just an id***?

I also have numerous MD family members and have never heard anything remotely similar to your story. But then again you are a New Yorker...

This is another post on a radiology forum from a respected poster. You may also want to watch your language.

“Can’t judge an indvidual’s performance on one factor alone, eg AOBR. I don’t know AOBR rads but have friends who are FMGs, Caribbean med school, DOs, etc and are good docs. It’s good to respect all people unless they have demonstrated reason to not.

But when hiring, we don’t have an obligation to be fair to applicants, and us not choosing someone is not passing judgement in his/her skills, it’s just us playing the odds. We just want to increase the chances of finding a good match for our group. So we try to get as many factors that make a good match likely: good references for work ethic and interpersonal IQ; good residency, fellowship, even med school; ABR, M.D.; not FMG; reason to be anchored to our geography (eg local family) and not be tempted by another job across country; appropriate social behavior on interview day and neither a braggart nor introvert weirdo. Being a cardio endurance athlete helps. Kidding. What we can actually get depends on the job market and applicant pool.

The above is a nuanced explanation of why I don’t see our group hiring an AOBR, DO, or FMG.”

AOBR is the osteopathic radiology board (lol)

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[deleted950463]

Don’t tell me how to speak, buddy.

I really don’t care what some rando says on an anybous forum. I guess you do???

I don’t, but moderators do care about how you speak.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This is another post on a radiology forum from a respected poster. You may also want to watch your language.

“Can’t judge an indvidual’s performance on one factor alone, eg AOBR. I don’t know AOBR rads but have friends who are FMGs, Caribbean med school, DOs, etc and are good docs. It’s good to respect all people unless they have demonstrated reason to not.

But when hiring, we don’t have an obligation to be fair to applicants, and us not choosing someone is not passing judgement in his/her skills, it’s just us playing the odds. We just want to increase the chances of finding a good match for our group. So we try to get as many factors that make a good match likely: good references for work ethic and interpersonal IQ; good residency, fellowship, even med school; ABR, M.D.; not FMG; reason to be anchored to our geography (eg local family) and not be tempted by another job across country; appropriate social behavior on interview day and neither a braggart nor introvert weirdo. Being a cardio endurance athlete helps. Kidding. What we can actually get depends on the job market and applicant pool.

The above is a nuanced explanation of why I don’t see our group hiring an AOBR, DO, or FMG.”

Hey @Goro I think we found that self hating DO you always talk about. Dude comes in and gets shocked that he can't match radiology at Columbia and now is in here trying to claim DOs don't get good jobs

 

[deleted950463]

Hey @Goro I think we found that self hating DO you always talk about. Dude comes in and gets shocked that he can't match radiology at Columbia and now is in here trying to claim DOs don't get good jobs

Do they though? At least in the field of radiology, at prime locations like NYC or coastal California there seem to be some difficulties

 

[Neopolymath]

I don’t, but moderators do care about how you speak.

How is his language in question? I'm far from a "the world is full of sensitive babies" guy, but jesus... This is two threads now that you have taken what people have said out of context and then got passive aggressive about it after people called you out.

 

[deleted950463]

While I enjoy your passive aggressive tangential threat, I honestly do not care if they care that I used asterisks to spell out a word I suggested your sister may possibly be but never actually called her.

It sounds like you’re a fan of Cuba and Venezuela. Solid censorship there.

SDN is a privately owned entity and can censor whatever speech to a standard of their liking, and a moderator already posted earlier in this thread about the behavior they expect, yet you violated their TOS despite that.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Do they though? At least in the field of radiology, at prime locations like NYC or coastal California there seem to be some difficulties

If you mean good jobs to be academic jobs at ivory tower academic centers then no, they get terrible jobs.

 

[deleted950463]

How is his language in question? I'm far from a "the world is full of sensitive babies" guy, but jesus... This is two threads now that you have taken what people have said out of context and then got passive aggressive about it after people called you out.

Calling my family member names? Sounds like a very mature person.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

How do you end up with a username such as @doctorsdatdo and still be a self-hating DO student? Lol

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[Neopolymath]

Calling my family member names? Sounds like a very mature person.

Much like your other posts show, you are having trouble reading what people actually write. He did not call your sister an idiot. Let's say he did. Does that violate the TOS? IDK but honestly it shouldn't. it's not like he said "f u" or whatever.


Edit: Is this guy another Hamster troll???

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

dit: Is this guy another Hamster troll???

No, he's just disillusioned since he found out he won't be matching radiology at NYU or Columbia and isn't their PD of the futue lol

 

[Neopolymath]

No, he's just disillusioned since he found out he won't be matching radiology at NYU or Columbia and isn't their PD of the futue lol

Can't wait for the 3rd year post "Attending hurt my feelings saying to get the damn history correct next time. MODS!?!?"

 

[gyngyn]

Looks like this isn't going to improve...

 

[deleted950463]

Looks like this isn't going to improve...

Agreed. It’s quite regretable. I think this thread has really devolved into personal attacks rather than actual discussion on the biases and challenges that we as DO student face.

 

[cookiegrub]

If these pds are so concerned abt prestige....why do they overlook folks that went to an easy college or chose an easy major and got into mid schools? Why is acgme converging protected DO programs but at the same time not taking away the comlex and making DO grads sit for two 8 hr exams if they want to be equal while at the same time not holding MD folks to the same standard if they apply to a prior DO programs in something like ortho... etc? How does everyone miss out on Dental school accreditations that have two different degrees DMD/DDS and I have never cared abt it as a pt? How do people have the audacity to spew out high step scores and then grinning back that they don't care abt it if you are a DO. This is ridiculous and petty to hear and downright nonsensical for such educated ppl who I thought were great at test taking but delusional in common sense. I get the bias against IMGs because you want to favor your own grads...you know the ones that have better communication skills...sitting for the same exams...going through American clinics. So in exchange they are just going to say a stat that 90% have honors..where is this data coming from or did you just saw a stellar applicant? Also...third year clinicals like preclinical grades is subjective so contrary to your step comparison you shouldn't be using that data anyways....but seeing that even steps are subjective to these programs..who cares, right? When a DO student has to go to class from 8 to 5 every day and still works their beehive in getting equal scores, dresses more professionally, and learns more than an MD, and still does not cripple under bias....I really don't see what you need to explain to senior faculty aside from actually educating them about the different DO schools out there. Just like MD schools, there are good and bad teaching DO institutes. Not all brilliant ppl end up in an md just like some average or below avg student went to podunk university but got into an MD afterwards because he thrived in college. Anyways...if this is the perception of your program, please try to put yourself in their shoes and actually see what they go through to get to where the are. The crowd isn't the type that has time to wake up late cuz they can skip classes...and they aren't the type that has to sit for just one exam per year...if you went nuts taking 1 exam...imagine sitting for 2!

 

[gyngyn]

Agreed. It’s quite regretable. I think this thread has really devolved into personal attacks rather than actual discussion on the biases and challenges that we as DO student face.

Let's give it one more chance.

 

[deleted950463]

If these pds are so concerned abt prestige....why do they overlook folks that went to an easy college or chose an easy major and got into mid schools? Why is acgme converging protected DO programs but at the same time not taking away the comlex and making DO grads sit for two 8 hr exams if they want to be equal while at the same time not holding MD folks to the same standard if they apply to a prior DO programs in something like ortho... etc? How does everyone miss out on Dental school accreditations that have two different degrees DMD/DDS and I have never cared abt it as a pt? How do people have the audacity to spew out high step scores and then grinning back that they don't care abt it if you are a DO. This is ridiculous and petty to hear and downright nonsensical for such educated ppl who I thought were great at test taking but delusional in common sense. I get the bias against IMGs because you want to favor your own grads...you know the ones that have better communication skills...sitting for the same exams...going through American clinics. So in exchange they are just going to say a stat that 90% have honors..where is this data coming from or did you just saw a stellar applicant? Also...third year clinicals like preclinical grades is subjective so contrary to your step comparison you shouldn't be using that data anyways....but seeing that even steps are subjective to these programs..who cares, right? When a DO student has to go to class from 8 to 5 every day and still works their beehive in getting equal scores, dresses more professionally, and learns more than an MD, and still does not cripple under bias....I really don't see what you need to explain to senior faculty aside from actually educating them about the different DO schools out there. Just like MD schools, there are good and bad teaching DO institutes. Not all brilliant ppl end up in an md just like some average or below avg student went to podunk university but got into an MD afterwards because he thrived in college. Anyways...if this is the perception of your program, please try to put yourself in their shoes and actually see what they go through to get to where the are. The crowd isn't the type that has time to wake up late cuz they can skip classes...and they aren't the type that has to sit for just one exam per year...if you went nuts taking 1 exam...imagine sitting for 2!

It is really unfair, that’s why the merger is going to help to eliminate the whole “separate but equal” training programs, many of them are small and of questionable quality.

The ideal scenario would be for AOA to keep the current complement of DO students and improve on clinical education because there is a wide gap compared to MDs.

However, they are opening up the floodgate of new schools so the DO degree is becoming more like the carribean degree, not less.

 

[libertyyne]

There are significant differences in research output and differences in Step 1 scores as well between the two populations for the most part. On average the resumes look different and thus may account for some of the difference in matches. The PD is just using this difference in populations as a rule of thumb to screen.

 

[Neopolymath]

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There are significant differences in research output and differences in Step 1 scores as well between the two populations for the most part. On average the resumes look different and thus may account for some of the difference in matches. The PD is just using this difference in populations as a rule of thumb to screen.

I agree with you with one caveat. The most important reason by far for screening DOs is the ability to get rid of all IMG/DO/FMG students by quickly checking a single box on the application filter. Who would not do this? Boom, a hugely reduced list of applications to sort through.

DO students should be advocating for a change in the ERAS filter if they want the most bang for the buck change.

 

[libertyyne]

I agree with you with one caveat. The most important reason by far for screening DOs is the ability to get rid of all IMG/DO/FMG students by quickly checking a single box on the application filter. Who would not do this? Boom, a hugely reduced list of applications to sort through.

DO students should be advocating for a change in the ERAS filter if they want the most bang for the buck change.

Screening by step and research will lead to similar results, maybe with some of the DO rockstars filtering through. The top programs will in all liklihood still be weary of the image that a large number of DO and IMG students would bring to the program. The best way to address the difference in matching is to address the quality difference in resumes. If DO schools became more research focused, had more home residency programs and had similar step scores it would stop having the image problem of being second tier. The best revenge is success , but you cant have success without actually fixing whats wrong and putting in the work. DO applicants with similar resumes to the average MD will match similarly. but COCA and AOA are adamant on expansion which will only bring averages down and not up therefore leading to the continuation of the stereotype.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

If these pds are so concerned abt prestige....why do they overlook folks that went to an easy college or chose an easy major and got into mid schools?

Top programs do screen out some mid-level MD applicants. We as DOs are just a level below so we see this kind of screening happening at mid-level programs as well.

Why is acgme converging protected DO programs but at the same time not taking away the comlex and making DO grads sit for two 8 hr exams if they want to be equal while at the same time not holding MD folks to the same standard if they apply to a prior DO programs in something like ortho... etc?

I don't think the ACGME has anything to do with the COMLEX remaining in place. That's our side of things holding on because people make $$$ on it.

How does everyone miss out on Dental school accreditations that have two different degrees DMD/DDS and I have never cared abt it as a pt?

This is a historical distinction that means nothing practically and it was for... I don't know, some sort of semantic reason. They are literally the same education. Though you can now argue DO is going the same route. It helps that many DMD programs are at powerhouse institutions -- think the DMD originated at Harvard? Perhaps DO programs should focus on opening at places with more credibility...

How do people have the audacity to spew out high step scores and then grinning back that they don't care abt it if you are a DO.

High step scores are a requirement for DOs to get into competitive spots. Certainly not the only requirement and not something that will open doors in and of itself. So, required but not sufficient. You need a resume that otherwise stands above MD candidates and many DOs do not have the research, high-powered LORs, etc. that program directors would use to differentiate.

When a DO student has to go to class from 8 to 5 every day and still works their beehive in getting equal scores, dresses more professionally, and learns more than an MD, and still does not cripple under bias....I really don't see what you need to explain to senior faculty aside from actually educating them about the different DO schools out there. Just like MD schools, there are good and bad teaching DO institutes. Not all brilliant ppl end up in an md just like some average or below avg student went to podunk university but got into an MD afterwards because he thrived in college. Anyways...if this is the perception of your program, please try to put yourself in their shoes and actually see what they go through to get to where the are.

Just because you have to work harder to be average on paper doesn't mean that your averageness is better than an MD's averageness. But if the things you did to get to where you are were exceptional, then yes, you should stand out a bit since your resume would be packed with extracurricular things. I personally did a lot of research and volunteer work during my time off and this was certainly commented on at my interviews.

The crowd isn't the type that has time to wake up late cuz they can skip classes...and they aren't the type that has to sit for just one exam per year...if you went nuts taking 1 exam...imagine sitting for 2!

lol, two board exams isn't that bad. Just study to do well on the USMLE and you'll crush the COMLEX.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I’ll never understand the DO students who pretend to be too good for the DO degree. Like for real, if the option is doing an smp or complaining forever about your career choice then just do the smp. Why anyone would attend a DO school and complain about not becoming a leader in the field and academic attending at a top program in one of the biggest cities in the world is beyond me. What a miserable existence that must be.

Like everyone knows that Meherry doesn’t have the same pedigree as Hopkins. But all these DO students are shocked when they find out that the degree they never even heard of before tanking the MCAT doesn’t have top MD school career opportunities lol.

 

[SLC]

SLC, as Someone who was a DO student yourself you should be familiar with the clinical education I see my upper classmates are getting. They are nothing comparable to what the MDs in my family got. I’ve also been told by multiple people that my cohorts often struggle more in residency due to the poor clinical training, which often consist of just shadowing and lack significant experience in an inpatient environment.

Don’t knock the upperclassmen’s clinical education. It’s better than you think almost certainly. I received an excellent education 3rd and 4th year; and that showed in my performance in intern year, feedback I recieved was that I was exceeding expectations for an intern from the get go. I don’t say that to pat myself on the back, but merely to point out that I wasn’t hamstrung for not going to an MD program.

I think this is more than perception. I simply don’t think we are equalivant candidates even if we have similar USMLE scores given the clinical education problem.

A problem that will only get worse with those new schools.

If that’s the attitude you take into 3rd and 4th year with you, it’ll probably come true...for you.

In reality, the only difference is a perceived lack of standardization in clinical experiences between DO’s and MD’s, even though there are similarly wide ranges of clinical experiences among MD applicants. But sharp DO students come into residency ready to go, and there really aren’t (in my experience) any real differences between MD and DO interns. Everyone will have anecdotes, but on the whole we are equivalently equipped to perform as interns. Beyond that, is up to us and our residency faculty.

 

[SLC]

I guess SLC didn’t match, scrambled, finished FM residency and is now an attending. I’ll make sure to edit my post to reflect that.

Yep, didn’t rank enough, unmatched, got into a great program, did well. They’ve matched people from my school regularly since so I must not have turned them off too much eh?

Not sure why you went immediately to pointing out my past right after asking for professionalism and civility, but that’s fine. I went through it, it worked out for me just fine in the end. I’m an attending now, I’m working a great job, loans getting paid, I like my life. If I hid the fact that I went through the SOAP despite having good board scores etc I miss a chance to help others after me, which is the only reason I’m here.

You can take my advice or you can leave it; but I’ve been through the process that you’re just starting. And recently. I know how things go out there, and they’re not the way your cynical imagination thinks they are.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Just as an aside, members of this thread have been given formal warnings for their behavior.

Personal attacks in fact are in violation of the TOS and also something I asked everyone very nicely not to do.

Further unprofessional behavior will likewise receive moderator review and action.

Carry on

 

[deleted950463]

Don’t knock the upperclassmen’s clinical education. It’s better than you think almost certainly. I received an excellent education 3rd and 4th year; and that showed in my performance in intern year, feedback I recieved was that I was exceeding expectations for an intern from the get go. I don’t say that to pat myself on the back, but merely to point out that I wasn’t hamstrung for not going to an MD program.



If that’s the attitude you take into 3rd and 4th year with you, it’ll probably come true...for you.

In reality, the only difference is a perceived lack of standardization in clinical experiences between DO’s and MD’s, even though there are similarly wide ranges of clinical experiences among MD applicants. But sharp DO students come into residency ready to go, and there really aren’t (in my experience) any real differences between MD and DO interns. Everyone will have anecdotes, but on the whole we are equivalently equipped to perform as interns. Beyond that, is up to us and our residency faculty.

I have no doubt that we DOs have zero problem in noncompetitive specialties like FM in noncompetitive locations, or even noncompetitive specialites in competitive locations. I think difficulties can come in when it’s wanting competitive specialties in competitive location.

My main issue is that AOA and COCA isn’t trying to make our degree worth more, but trying to water it down instead.

 

[Neopolymath]

Screening by step and research will lead to similar results, maybe with some of the DO rockstars filtering through. The top programs will in all liklihood still be weary of the image that a large number of DO and IMG students would bring to the program. The best way to address the difference in matching is to address the quality difference in resumes. If DO schools became more research focused, had more home residency programs and had similar step scores it would stop having the image problem of being second tier. The best revenge is success , but you cant have success without actually fixing whats wrong and putting in the work. DO applicants with similar resumes to the average MD will match similarly. but COCA and AOA are adamant on expansion which will only bring averages down and not up therefore leading to the continuation of the stereotype.

I still don't necessarily believe the bolded and it's kind of the point of the first post, frankly, but I do agree with your overall post/point. It's all largely semantics anyways. Going forward people will match roughly where they deserve to match. DO schools will never not be a backup to MD schools. That's just the way things are and will be until DO schools are identical to MD schools, but then they wouldn't be DO schools and wouldn't be awful for students so it wouldn't matter.

Would I be here if I wasn't truly depressed and aimless my first few semesters of college? Hell no. I killed the mcat compared to almost all of my classmates. I also don't think it's worth worrying about. My school is garbage, but when I match it will probably be to a similar program the local MD school would allow me to match into as well so whatever. It just seems like a waste of energy to worry about because I think most of why we get filtered is due to human nature not some injustice like some students think. I don't think as highly of the students at my school compared to the local MD school much like I don't as highly of the students at one of the state schools compared to Stanford. I don't think that's wild or something to spend time on like a lot of people I guess.

 

[SLC]

I have no doubt that we DOs have zero problem in noncompetitive specialties like FM in noncompetitive locations, or even noncompetitive specialites in competitive locations. I think difficulties can come in when it’s wanting competitive specialties in competitive location.

My main issue is that AOA and COCA isn’t trying to make our degree worth more, but trying to water it down instead.

USMD has difficulties in competitive specialties in competitive locations. That’s why their called competitive speciaties in competitive locations. Having an MD doesn’t let anyone just waltz in and grab integrated plastics in LA or NYC or any other place that people want to be without significant work being required before hand, and a healthy amount of luck too.

I’m starting to think you must not have a good handle on what the average match for MD and DO student alike, looks like.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Screening by step and research will lead to similar results, maybe with some of the DO rockstars filtering through. The top programs will in all liklihood still be weary of the image that a large number of DO and IMG students would bring to the program. The best way to address the difference in matching is to address the quality difference in resumes. If DO schools became more research focused, had more home residency programs and had similar step scores it would stop having the image problem of being second tier. The best revenge is success , but you cant have success without actually fixing whats wrong and putting in the work. DO applicants with similar resumes to the average MD will match similarly. but COCA and AOA are adamant on expansion which will only bring averages down and not up therefore leading to the continuation of the stereotype.

Emphatically untrue.

I'm a resident in EM which is very DO-friendly and we interviewed zero DOs this year (as well as last year and the previous year). Meanwhile I know one of our interviewees w a <220 step 1 score from an MD school.

I agree that the AOA isn't helping the cause, so long as you lot keep building schools and accepting marginal applicants while offering a questionable clinical education, the perception that DO = second tier will just persist.

USMD has difficulties in competitive specialties in competitive locations. That’s why their called competitive speciaties in competitive locations. Having an MD doesn’t let anyone just waltz in and grab integrated plastics in LA or NYC or any other place that people want to be without significant work being required before hand, and a healthy amount of luck too.

I’m starting to think you must not have a good handle on what the average match for MD and DO student alike, looks like.

Yeah, but there's a difference between having to climb a flight of stairs to obtain something and having to climb a skyscraper.

 

[SLC]

Yeah, but there's a difference between having to climb a flight of stairs to obtain something and having to climb a skyscraper.

You know that’s an exaggeration. You won’t admit it but you know it.

 

[libertyyne]

Emphatically untrue.

I'm a resident in EM which is very DO-friendly and we interviewed zero DOs this year (as well as last year and the previous year). Meanwhile I know one of our interviewees w a <220 step 1 score from an MD school.

I agree that the AOA isn't helping the cause, so long as you lot keep building schools and accepting marginal applicants while offering a questionable clinical education, the perception that DO = second tier will just persist.



Yeah, but there's a difference between having to climb a flight of stairs to obtain something and having to climb a skyscraper.

I cant speak to your program, or to the anecdotes, only the NRMP charting outcomes data which does indicate that DOs do infact match into EM, and that a match difference is to be expected solely on the difference in resumes.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

You know that’s an exaggeration. You won’t admit it but you know it.

New York Medical College, a low tier MD school, matched twice as many of its grads in ACGME Ortho than all of the nation’s DO schools combined. I’m not exagerrating man.

 

[SLC]

New York Medical College, a low tier MD school, matched twice as many of its grads in ACGME Ortho than all of the nation’s DO schools combined. I’m not exagerrating man.

Whatever...that’s a goalpost shift if I ever saw one, but I’m just gonna leave you be since I know it’s pointless to argue with you.

 

[DarkHorizon]

SLC, as Someone who was a DO student yourself you should be familiar with the clinical education I see my upper classmates are getting. They are nothing comparable to what the MDs in my family got. I’ve also been told by multiple people that my cohorts often struggle more in residency due to the poor clinical training, which often consist of just shadowing and lack significant experience in an inpatient environment.

I think this is more than perception. I simply don’t think we are equalivant candidates even if we have similar USMLE scores given the clinical education problem.

A problem that will only get worse with those new schools.

Speak for yourself, you decided to go to seton hill campus IIRC, poor choice. Many many DO students are getting great clinical education. I can speak for myself, my base hospital was an 800 bed level 1 trauma center. About 90 people in my class ended up at this hospital. I know for a fact there are many other hospitals like this with DO network. Instead of making blanket statements as above, you should really educate rising premeds on which schools have better clinical education and which ones are dumpster fire, such as seton hill.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Do they though? At least in the field of radiology, at prime locations like NYC or coastal California there seem to be some difficulties

What is going on with you? You have gone down the dark side so completely you have turned on all the other DO's. You haven't been shafted enough yet to be this way.

If these pds are so concerned abt prestige....why do they overlook folks that went to an easy college or chose an easy major and got into mid schools? Why is acgme converging protected DO programs but at the same time not taking away the comlex and making DO grads sit for two 8 hr exams if they want to be equal while at the same time not holding MD folks to the same standard if they apply to a prior DO programs in something like ortho... etc? How does everyone miss out on Dental school accreditations that have two different degrees DMD/DDS and I have never cared abt it as a pt? How do people have the audacity to spew out high step scores and then grinning back that they don't care abt it if you are a DO. This is ridiculous and petty to hear and downright nonsensical for such educated ppl who I thought were great at test taking but delusional in common sense. I get the bias against IMGs because you want to favor your own grads...you know the ones that have better communication skills...sitting for the same exams...going through American clinics. So in exchange they are just going to say a stat that 90% have honors..where is this data coming from or did you just saw a stellar applicant? Also...third year clinicals like preclinical grades is subjective so contrary to your step comparison you shouldn't be using that data anyways....but seeing that even steps are subjective to these programs..who cares, right? When a DO student has to go to class from 8 to 5 every day and still works their beehive in getting equal scores, dresses more professionally, and learns more than an MD, and still does not cripple under bias....I really don't see what you need to explain to senior faculty aside from actually educating them about the different DO schools out there. Just like MD schools, there are good and bad teaching DO institutes. Not all brilliant ppl end up in an md just like some average or below avg student went to podunk university but got into an MD afterwards because he thrived in college. Anyways...if this is the perception of your program, please try to put yourself in their shoes and actually see what they go through to get to where the are. The crowd isn't the type that has time to wake up late cuz they can skip classes...and they aren't the type that has to sit for just one exam per year...if you went nuts taking 1 exam...imagine sitting for 2!

If you haven't figure out why you should go MD, you have now. Hopefully your still premed and can correct this. OTH, that massive run-on has 7-Oh makes DO written all over it. I agree with your thoughts, but as you know, lifes not fair.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

New York Medical College, a low tier MD school, matched twice as many of its grads in ACGME Ortho than all of the nation’s DO schools combined. I’m not exagerrating man.

This is such a dumb statement. You mean in the ACGMe match. My school matched 6 ortho this year in the AOA and typically matched 3-4 every year. New York medical college most likely had more applicant applying ortho that year than every single DO school combined as well. DOs don’t typically apply ACGMe for ortho homie.

 

[deleted950463]

Speak for yourself, you decided to go to seton hill campus IIRC,

I never mentioned where I am going to school. Please don’t try to doxx me.

 

[cookiegrub]

If you haven't figure out why you should go MD, you have now. Hopefully your still premed and can correct this. OTH, that massive run-on has 7-Oh makes DO written all over it. I agree with your thoughts, but as you know, lifes not fair.

Run-ons are my thing when I go on a topic like this lol. I don't really disagree with DO teaching as it is no different than MD. In fact, if you sat with a patient or the regular public and explain your education, more often than not they will say that your training seems better than the one that MD offers. Again, my point is not to say that DO education curriculum is better because it has more things to juggle but rather when ACGME PDs on a whole argue they won't rank a DO better because of the letters, it makes no sense.
It is a massive injustice to the DO community when quality control is out the door at some DO programs but the whole DO community has to share the blame. I don't see that happening when carribean schools started opening MD programs. Instead, the carribean schools were considered outsiders and part of the IMG group when they provided the same MD letters and had a large number of US and Canadian citizens which qualified for financial aid. I don't think that all DO schools are made equal and there are some really old and new schools that have been attempting at changing the rhetoric for good.
Lastly, AOA and COCA need to do better with the way they are standardizing the merger. Allowing DO schools to open left and right isn't the answer. Also sharing the fact that 25% of medical graduates are now DO is not a thing to be proud of. Instead, it's the quality of the graduates that is more important. The more new schools and lower the standards you keep, the harder it is for the applicant to survive in the medical school environment and the more miserable a journey it is without solid connections because of how hard these schools have it in retaining and attracting top faculty. Most importantly, allowing older institutes to open more than 2 satellite programs needs to be looked into much better. Most of these programs lack university support and most importantly, early clinical exposure.

 

[libertyyne]

Run-ons are my thing when I go on a topic like this lol. I don't really disagree with DO teaching as it is no different than MD. In fact, if you sat with a patient or the regular public and explain your education, more often than not they will say that your training seems better than the one that MD offers. Again, my point is not to say that DO education curriculum is better because it has more things to juggle but rather when ACGME PDs on a whole argue they won't rank a DO better because of the letters, it makes no sense.
It is a massive injustice to the DO community when quality control is out the door at some DO programs but the whole DO community has to share the blame. I don't see that happening when carribean schools started opening MD programs. Instead, the carribean schools were considered outsiders and part of the IMG group when they provided the same MD letters and had a large number of US and Canadian citizens which qualified for financial aid. I don't think that all DO schools are made equal and there are some really old and new schools that have been attempting at changing the rhetoric for good.
Lastly, AOA and COCA need to do better with the way they are standardizing the merger. Allowing DO schools to open left and right isn't the answer. Also sharing the fact that 25% of medical graduates are now DO is not a thing to be proud of. Instead, it's the quality of the graduates that is more important. The more new schools and lower the standards you keep, the harder it is for the applicant to survive in the medical school environment and the more miserable a journey it is without solid connections because of how hard these schools have it in retaining and attracting top faculty. Most importantly, allowing older institutes to open more than 2 satellite programs needs to be looked into much better. Most of these programs lack university support and most importantly, early clinical exposure.

lol @ bolded. If you add cow-pie to apple pie it does not make the apple pie taste better. By your logic adding homeopathy, naturopathy, and alchemy would make a medical school education better.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I never mentioned where I am going to school. Please don’t try to doxx me.

You did. One of the LECOMs close to NY, I assumed Seton Hill, could be Erie.

Either way, you failed to do research and now make very generalized statements. Never mind the fact that radiology may be the only field (and may be path) where your 3rd year rotations mean almost nothing. It’s all in the step 1. If they aren’t taking DOs in their radiology program, it’s not the clinical education.

 

[cookiegrub]

lol @ bolded. If you add cow-pie to apple pie it does not make the apple pie taste better. By your logic adding homeopathy, naturopathy, and alchemy would make a medical school education better.

Do you ever wonder if MD PDs get pissed at this type of sentiment. Saying that your education is better than MD peers, or that you are more holistic.

Bolded and underlined. This is exactly where DOs get misunderstood and are tired of in that a majority of MDs just don't understand our education. Mind you, osteopathy is just one class and a lab during our preclinical years. Everything else is the same. We don't learn how to put herbs in a pot and turn it to gold lol. Take a tour at your local DO school if you have this misunderstanding and maybe talk with an MD dean there on how they have incorporated every natural secondary method in treating diabetes... Most often you'll get a funny look and be told that their job is to teach the class the same way your class in MD world is taught. Do you ever wonder at schools like Harvard and so forth at how Dental students share the same lectures? Same concept bud.

Our education objectively is better in the sense that we offer an open minded curriculum through OMM. But you don't hear DOs saying that because not a lot of DOs end up practicing or using OMM. The principles used for OMM (atleast the majority of procedures) are actually anatomically based. The research is already done by MDs to a large extent. Shortening the muscle to reset the neurological messaging system is everything but witchcraft...it's physiology 101. We don't spend 90% of the time doing this....it's a way to open our noggin to apply what we learn physiologically in a practical manner. While it is an additional time sink in our already limited schedule, it is a great way to go home and help people around you without the benefit of already being a physician. What is wrong with that?

 

[libertyyne]

Bolded and underlined. This is exactly where DOs get misunderstood and are tired of in that a majority of MDs just don't understand our education. Mind you, osteopathy is just one class and a lab during our preclinical years. Everything else is the same. We don't learn how to put herbs in a pot and turn it to gold lol. Take a tour at your local DO school if you have this misunderstanding and maybe talk with an MD dean there on how they have incorporated every natural secondary method in treating diabetes... Most often you'll get a funny look and be told that their job is to teach the class the same way your class in MD world is taught. Do you ever wonder at schools like Harvard and so forth at how Dental students share the same lectures? Same concept bud.

Our education objectively is better in the sense that we offer an open minded curriculum through OMM. But you don't hear DOs saying that because the principles used for OMM (atleast the majority of procedures) are actually anatomically based. The research is already done by MDs to a large extent. Shortening the muscle to reset the neurological messaging system is everything but witchcraft...it's physiology 101. We don't spend 90% of the time doing this....it's a way to open our noggin to apply what we learn physiologically in a practical manner...even if DOs that graduate won't use it ever again (which is usually a good amount of grads)

lol, they dont get misunderstood. The evidence and theory is lacking for OMM it is continued to be taught because of political reasons. Once again by adding cow-pie to apple pie you do not get a better pie, just **** in your teeth. If you said this to me as an MD PD i would have a hard time keeping a straight face. Why restrict your open mind to omm, open it even more to homeopathy and the other things that require similar levels of "open mindedness".

 

[cookiegrub]

lol, they dont get misunderstood. The evidence and theory is lacking for OMM it is continued to be taught because of political reasons. Once again by adding cow-pie to apple pie you do not get a better pie, just **** in your teeth. If you said this to me as an MD PD i would have a hard time keeping a straight face. Why restrict your open mind to omm, open it even more to homeopathy and the other things that require similar levels of "open mindedness".

The point is that some people actually mix up their pies and don't know the recipe...
Keeping a straight-face on is all about understanding someone's point of view and not taking it to a different planet.
The point is that DOs are a hybrid and they understand how to approach alternative methods. MDs telling a patient to seek acupuncture or a hot massage is like my mother telling me to do the same; both don't have the experience and are just bowing to the patient's need to figure if some alternative will work. If you have a profession that atleast acknoweldges and knows the physiology behinds an alternative treatment, they are better in holistic management of the patient. There are many patients that go to a DO because they know how to fix them the way that no other MD does and unlike a chiro or naturopath...these DOs are physicians. People don't pay money for cowpies. I acknowledge that DOs need to do and highlight their research, throw away the portions that just doesn't prove to work and stop wasting the time of their students. However, stop equating osteopathy to pseudoscience training because osteopathic education is not 90% OMM. If you have 100% MD and mix an additional 10% DO education...how are we even diluting our value? If PDs want to be fair they should just ignore the OMM component. DOs would still be 100% similar to MDs in that sense.

 

[libertyyne]

The point is that some people actually mix up their pies and don't know the recipe...
Keeping a straight-face on is all about understanding someone's point of view and not taking it to a different planet.
The point is that DOs are a hybrid and they understand how to approach alternative methods. MDs telling a patient to seek acupuncture or a hot massage is like my mother telling me to do the same; both don't have the experience and are just bowing to the patient's need to figure if some alternative will work. If you have a profession that atleast acknoweldges and knows the physiology behinds an alternative treatment, they are better in holistic management of the patient. There are many patients that go to a DO because they know how to fix them the way that no other MD does and unlike a chiro or naturopath...these DOs are physicians. People don't pay money for cowpies. I acknowledge that DOs need to do and highlight their research, throw away the portions that just doesn't prove to work and stop wasting the time of their students. However, stop equating osteopathy to pseudoscience training because osteopathic education is not 90% OMM.

People do pay money for cowpies. People go to naturopaths, homeopaths and chiros all the time. People even pay for NPs.

Good luck, clearly you are deep in the kool-aid.


And then people wonder why DO ACGME matches are not as high as MDs.

 

[cookiegrub]

People do pay money for cowpies. People go to naturopaths, homeopaths and chiros all the time. People even pay for NPs.

Good luck, clearly you are deep in the kool-aid.


And then people wonder why DO ACGME matches are not as high as MDs.

I just love how when people like you miss the point because they don't care to know and instead prefer to stretch their imaginations. Your ignorance is bliss and you clearly don't even know how to do simple math which I included in my prior response. Perhaps you might even call math a pseudo-science. I concur with your conjecture here but by the same logic people also pay money to see MD or a DO or an NP or a pot of herbs. The fact that a MD or a DO can provide similar care and have practicing rights in all 50 states is evidence of that fact. Neither a naturopath nor a chiro does the same procedure and neither do they get reimbursed similarly. I am not into OMM and neither am I drinking what you're making. This is a DO forum and I am simply stating what I know from my side. Your avoidance to acknowledge that and instead post an emoticon shows to people your immaturity and unprofessionalism. Hopefully you won't be a PD anytime soon:troll:

 

[Instatewaiter]

Struggle during residency due to poor clinical training? Is it possible to elaborate? Most first year residents are eyes and ears only. Go see the patient and report to more senior resident/ attending. You would have to have been asleep during medical school to lack the basic skills necessary to do that. PGY 1s dont have primary care responsibilities, they are supervised. MDs have crappy rotations too. I can attest to that.

I don't know where you did residency, but interns in my program were on their own by month 3. Your seniors weren't looking over your shoulder. Your senior was not in house at night. You were the point of the wedge and if you didn't go to a place with good clinicals, you wouldn't be able to hang.

This is important because there is a huge variability in DO rotations, even within a given school. I have met DOs who didn't have inpatient rotations during their clinical rotations! I have met many DOs who didn't do inpatient rotations in medicine (and went into internal medicine medicine) and I have met tons of DOs who didn't rotate at hospitals with residents. All of these people were like a fish out of water when they came to residency. You bascially have to remediate them. As a PD you don't want these people in your residency class because they tend to be disruptive. You don't have the man power to look at each and every application to make sure they had appropriate rotations when you're getting over 1000 applications.

So everyone who is angry at the original post, your anger shouldn't be directed at this poster but rather to your deans and the deans of other DO schools who have unscrupulously increased enrollment at the expense of their students.

 

[Instatewaiter]

How do people have the audacity to spew out high step scores and then grinning back that they don't care abt it if you are a DO.

So step scores certainly do not tell you everything about how someone is going to be clinically. I have said time and time again a good score is necessary but not sufficient. You probably aren't going to have someone who is a great doctor who got a 200 on the steps but a 260 doesn't make you a good doctor.

I have seen many a medical student with a 260 or 270 who was clinically clueless. He could tell you everything about vasculitis but couldn't examine or interview a patient. The 270 isn't going to make them a good resident. That is why they don't just ask for your step 1 score to place you into a residency.

Just like MD schools, there are good and bad teaching DO institutes. Not all brilliant ppl end up in an md just like some average or below avg student went to podunk university but got into an MD afterwards because he thrived in college.

Despite what is propogated on this board, MD education is forced to be uniform. There is very little variability. My rotations and the guy from Harvard's rotations were very similar.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Despite what is propogated on this board, MD education is forced to be uniform. There is very little variability. My rotations and the guy from Harvard's rotations were very similar.

The rotation requirements between LCME and COCA are the exact same. I agree with your overall premise but this statement isn’t true, MD schools have quite a bit of clinical variability as well. There are new MD schools opening with mostly preceptorship rotations exactly the same as many DO schools.

The thing that frustrates me is the new and rural schools are tainting the whole pool of DO applicants. Every one of my core rotations will be at an academic medical center working directly with residents in those fields.

I agree with the idea that the AOA had there chance to greatly increase DO’s respectability a few years ago and they chose to forego that and rapidly increase crap schools. I’ve been saying that for a while.

 

[deleted950463]

The rotation requirements between LCME and COCA are the exact same. I agree with your overall premise but this statement isn’t true, MD schools have quite a bit of clinical variability as well. There are new MD schools opening with mostly preceptorship rotations exactly the same as many DO schools.

The thing that frustrates me is the new and rural schools are tainting the whole pool of DO applicants. Every one of my core rotations will be at an academic medical center working directly with residents in those fields.

I agree with the idea that the AOA had there chance to greatly increase DO’s respectability a few years ago and they chose to forego that and rapidly increase crap schools. I’ve been saying that for a while.

Aren’t you a DO students? Instatewaiter has been around for awhile and he’s actually a MD attending. Do you have evidence support your assertion that there is “quite a bit” of clinical variability among MD schools?

This board way overblown rotational variability at MD schools. Almost all of them have a teritary teaching hospital as home base. Almost no DO schools have a teritary teaching hospital as a home base.

 

[SLC]

Aren’t you a DO students? Instatewaiter has been around for awhile and he’s actually a MD attending. Do you have evidence support your assertion that there is “quite a bit” of clinical variability among MD schools?

This board way overblown rotational variability at MD schools. Almost all of them have a teritary teaching hospital as home base. Almost no DO schools have a teritary teaching hospital as a home base.

Aren’t you a preclinical student? Do you have evidence to support your assertion that DO clinical education is poor?

Just trying to keep you honest here.

Also, I’m a DO attending, does my experience in the system (which I think is more pertinent than a non-DO’s) carry weight with you?

My experience as a former DO student, a former ACGME resident, and now an attending is that there’s plenty of variability in MD education. I saw it as a resident in an upper tier MD school, and I’ve seen and heard about it among my Coresidents at their schools and among posters here on SDN.