D
deleted87051
What would you call it? A noble learned profession? We’re just schmucks increasingly working for “the man” and “the man” is increasingly telling us how to do our jobs.
Stock Market 2022 except we just talk about stocks
- Thread starter ambiturner
- Start date
What would you call it? A noble learned profession? We’re just schmucks increasingly working for “the man” and “the man” is increasingly telling us how to do our jobs.
D
deleted1116990
I would factor in the skill, time, and cognitive abilities it took to become a board certified physician along with the responsibility we carry and not put that on par with somebody who does one year of vocational training with a short apprenticeship.
I get feeling discouraged by those who want to believe we are just employed easily replaceable cogs, but don't throw in the towel. That's what they want. The fight is worth fighting as long as you want to keep practicing your profession.
An auto mechanic can easily go open his own shop and work for himself, not accountable to "the man." Nobody is forcing him to work for the Toyota dealership. So is he not a skilled tradesman anymore because he is independent, only accountable to his customers? Lots of tradesmen don't have bosses and work for themselves. Just because we have administrators handling aspects of our practices does not mean we have "blue collar tradesman jobs." When the auto mechanic breaks a coolant pipe by accident he can just say F it, I'm done for the day, I'll dig a used one out of the junk yard for the cheapest price to pay for my screw up and deal with it tomorrow. People don't have spare parts and can't be brought back from the dead.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2011
- Messages
- 493
- Reaction score
- 794
- Points
- 4,756
The Democrats’ Shifting Coalition Unlike Trump, They Love the Highly Educated
This:
"An average of the last month of public polls (where crosstabs are available) finds Democrats leading the generic ballot among white college graduates by 12 points while trailing among white working class (noncollege) voters by 25 points. (37 point swing in party preference college vs no college)
Similarly, a merge of 2022 NBC polling data finds Democrats leading the generic among white women college graduates by an astounding 27 points while getting crushed among white working class women by 22 points. Now that’s a gap." (49 point swing in party preference college vs no college)
37 to 50 point preference for democrats in college educated vs not college educated among white voters. So, yes, loan forgiveness is VERY partisan.
This:
"An average of the last month of public polls (where crosstabs are available) finds Democrats leading the generic ballot among white college graduates by 12 points while trailing among white working class (noncollege) voters by 25 points. (37 point swing in party preference college vs no college)
Similarly, a merge of 2022 NBC polling data finds Democrats leading the generic among white women college graduates by an astounding 27 points while getting crushed among white working class women by 22 points. Now that’s a gap." (49 point swing in party preference college vs no college)
37 to 50 point preference for democrats in college educated vs not college educated among white voters. So, yes, loan forgiveness is VERY partisan.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2005
- Messages
- 17,331
- Reaction score
- 27,233
- Points
- 8,756
- Location
- Home again
- Attending Physician
Agreed but you're saying more than that. You're defending student loan forgiveness, despite acknowledging that there were/are better options.
No, this is a false equivalence. Starving seniors in the 60s might or might not be salty in the afterlife about seniors in the 90s and today enjoying a better social safety net.
But my PEERS and my kids' PEERS who made different decisions AT THE SAME TIME are getting a handout, and I am not, and neither are my kids.
That's the difference.
Absolve the student loan debtors if you want for their decision to take out those loans, but some of us didn't. We sacrificed to avoid debt. They are sacrificing to repay debt - except no, I guess their sacrifice deserves relief at everyone's expense.
C'mon
You know the demographics. Don't gimme this both-sides-ism. 😉 You know very well that young college educated voters tilt (strongly) Democratic, and you know very well that a handout targeted to young college educated voters (from a Democrat president no less) aids Democrat election prospects more that Republican ones.
And given the moral faux-conservative ****show that the Trump-led GOP is these days, I can almsot shrug away the vote buying, because for all my disagreements with the Democratic party platform they're better than the treasonous incompetent scum in the Trump cult. But I won't pretend the vote buying isn't happening, while causing additional harm to the problem it pretends to solve.
D
deleted1116990
It's stupid you had to spend time digging up the numbers to prove what everyone already knows. Almost as stupid as trying to defend the handout with the argument that it really benefited people who vote republican to an equal degree. If the best defense you have of a policy is an obvious lie, then maybe just maybe you are supporting an indefensible policy. I'd love to see somebody who supports this handout explain logically why taxpayers should fund part of the career expenses for certain people (those who took loans to go to college as their job requires a degree) and not career expenses for others (those who took loans to buy a truck and mowers for a lawn care business as their job requires equipment). This is the argument made famous by Mike Rowe, and I haven't heard anybody do anything other than ignore it. Presumably because you twist yourself in logical pretzels trying to explain how it's not a false equivalency.
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2009
- Messages
- 1,775
- Reaction score
- 1,862
- Points
- 6,466
- Attending Physician
Because you can escape those business loans via bankruptcy. Education loans haunt you until you die.
Personally, I would have preferred them reducing the interest rate and capping tuition fees for US residents. If schools want to gouge rich foreign kids, go right ahead, but don’t charge 80k a year COA just because.
D
deleted1116990
Agree completely. The handout enables to schools to charge even more and the lenders to supply it. I am reminded of when I bought my first house during the period when Obama was giving $8000 handouts to first time homebuyers. The sellers knowing I (and others) would be receiving this liquidity injected into the housing market absolutely reduced my ability to negotiate lower than asking price. There's never "free" money.
Regarding bankruptcy, that's not exactly a get out of jail free card for other loans. You're ruined for 7 years at a minimum. I don't think throwing 10k at loans with balances often into the 6 figure range because people can't declare bankruptcy is a good argument. The policy will just funnel money from the tax base to the lenders and universities in the long run, not to those carrying the debt with the small exception of those with very small debt burdens (who in that case certainly could have paid off a $15k loan balance or something by being even moderately fiscally responsible).
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 7,313
- Reaction score
- 20,116
- Points
- 9,596
- Attending Physician
I do think there are better options, but I don't oppose loan forgiveness enough to totally oppose it if those other options have no chance of passing.
It's not a false equivalence.
In 1966 seniors who had not done the responsible thing were receiving a "handout" AT THE SAME TIME as their PEERS who had concurrently saved enough to fund their retirement healthcare expenses.
Again, there are plenty of macroeconomic arguments to be made against loan forgiveness which are much more convincing than "somebody [who in all likelihood was subject to a system of insanely rising tuition costs and increasingly predatory loans/for-profit schools] is getting something I didn't get. "
Get this.....what if in this case it actually is ...*gasp* .... both sides? Opposition to student loan forgiveness isn't some hyper hyper polarized issue like say oil or energy exploration where 80-90% of Republicans are in support of expanded drilling. What do the numbers look like?
You still have ~40-45% of Republicans who are in favor of some student loan forgiveness. Because, as I keep saying, there are a huge number of Republicans with active student loan debt too.
You're obviously right that the move is targeted to the D base, but that is not mutually exclusive with the fact that forgiveness (just like Medicaid expansion for all those poor, deep red Appalachian and Southern states) is going to also benefit conservatives.
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 7,313
- Reaction score
- 20,116
- Points
- 9,596
- Attending Physician
Student Debt Viewed as Major Problem; Financial Considerations Important Factor for Most Millennials When Considering Whether to Pursue College
Majority of College Students, 42% of All 18- to 29- Year Olds, Have Student Loan Debt More than two-in-five (42%) Millennials between 18- and 29- years olds report that they, or someone in their household has student load debt; 48 percent indicated that they had no debt. Unlike most questions...
iop.harvard.edu
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2021
- Messages
- 93
- Reaction score
- 220
- Points
- 227
Exactly my point - this is an arbitrary process same as student loan forgiveness. Let’s say I am employed and my employer did receive 50k supposedly for me. Is that the same as me getting a check from the government for 50k? Obviously not.
Same with student loans. If student A goes to trade school for cheap and pays his way through to become a plumber why should he pay for the loan forgiveness of student B who goes to an expensive liberal arts school, majors in gender studies and now works at Starbucks?
To use some popular buzzwords I’ll say that there are so many more equitable and inclusive ways to help middle and lower class people than student loan forgiveness.
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2011
- Messages
- 159
- Reaction score
- 291
- Points
- 4,811
- Attending Physician
OR maybe the federal government shouldn't guarantee funding (loans) for schools that allow for unchecked growth and costs without any repercussions from doing so. Do agree that genie will be hard to put back in the bottle. Saddest part of all of it is it affects the most vulnerable and disadvantaged kids who are the ones they are supposed to try and help.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2011
- Messages
- 493
- Reaction score
- 794
- Points
- 4,756
Everyone can agree student debt is a problem. Biden admin offers no solutions to the problem. Instead, he decides to spend billions to forgive student debt for a select few, at a point in time when government spending has led to the worst economic environment in 40 years. He is truly senile.
Last edited:
D
deleted1116990
That's what always happens. Their faces are used as way to manipulate policy that ends up harming them by tricking voters into thinking they are helping them by supporting policy that ends up funneling $$$ from the tax base to the wealthy and their institutions. This is what always happens every time when the government attempts to fix a problem by spending money. An emotional appeal is made to the voters to support the spending, and wealthy institutions profit from it. The war in Iraq/Afghanistan, Obamacare, Covid policy, IRA/climate bill, etc.
Now we have $30 trillion in national debt and 9% YoY inflation. The poor are poorer and the rich are richer, and the public is distracted with arguments about human sexuality. I'm shocked.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,840
- Reaction score
- 9,893
- Points
- 9,821
- Location
- Southeast
- Attending Physician
Vector 2 and Southpaw don't want to criticize the pork from their party. The fact remains in 5 years this same problem of Student Loan Debt will be with us, the taxpayer. Private School tuition won't be reduced, Loans will be higher and we will be footing the bill by allowing 5% of discretionary income to be used for loan repayment.
A better solution, in fact the only solution, was to "forgive" the $10,000 (Biden needed to give his BASE cash) but not reduce discretionary repayment; instead, Community College becomes "free" to those who can demonstrate need and pass their classes resulting in a 2 year degree. That's the kind of social justice we need in this country not the Biden plan of letting liberal kids who borrowed too much money off the hook.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2008
- Messages
- 7,495
- Reaction score
- 4,187
- Points
- 6,886
- Location
- Utah
- Attending Physician
this thread is going off topic.
stocks went up then down today. major reversal. the june support isnt looking good.
stocks went up then down today. major reversal. the june support isnt looking good.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,840
- Reaction score
- 9,893
- Points
- 9,821
- Location
- Southeast
- Attending Physician
I am hopeful this Illegal "loan forgiveness" program is challenged in Court and ends up in front of SCOTUS. This program is clearly unconstitutional and a GOP led House in 2023 can challenge the authority of the administration to do this without their consent in Court.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,840
- Reaction score
- 9,893
- Points
- 9,821
- Location
- Southeast
- Attending Physician
Agreed, Stocks heading down next week. I expect S and P of 3500 then 3400 but even I can't resist buying at those levels. I suspect the smart money is ready to pour Billions into stocks at some point like 3300 or 3200. Technically, 3200 is support for the S and P 500.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,840
- Reaction score
- 9,893
- Points
- 9,821
- Location
- Southeast
- Attending Physician
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,840
- Reaction score
- 9,893
- Points
- 9,821
- Location
- Southeast
- Attending Physician
Many of you don't believe in technical levels but the smart money does. So, these levels matter in terms of BILLIONS being invested in ETFs and Mutual Funds. Look at August 2019 with a level of 3,027 or October 2019 with a level of 2855. These levels matter in a Bear Market. I think 3200 will hold as the bottom but it really depends on the CPI/Inflation data over the next 3 months. If we bottom this year then 3200 holds but if we bottom early next year like February we could see 3,027 or 2855. Everyone is looking at these technical levels and so should you.
The experts think with a recession, 4.5% Fed Funds rate and a drop in earnings for 2023 the S and P 500 should be in 3,000-3,200 range.
The experts think with a recession, 4.5% Fed Funds rate and a drop in earnings for 2023 the S and P 500 should be in 3,000-3,200 range.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,840
- Reaction score
- 9,893
- Points
- 9,821
- Location
- Southeast
- Attending Physician
Lauren Goodwin, an economist and portfolio strategist at New York Life Investments, said Tuesday that investors still have not priced in bad earnings news even with the S&P 500 hitting new lows.
“Once growth slows, ‘peak hawkishness’ may provide some relief, but the impact of slowing growth to corporate earnings will follow. In other words, the first leg down in equity markets was largely due to multiple compression; the next is likely to be downward earnings revisions,” Goodwin said in a note to clients.
“With so much recent volatility, investors have been asking if bad news isn’t already priced in. I’d argue that the market reaction to early earnings releases suggests that slowing economic activity is nowhere near priced in. Earning estimates are likely to continue their decline until we see a bottoming in leading economic indicators. We are not there yet, suggesting volatility ahead for risk assets,” she said.
“Once growth slows, ‘peak hawkishness’ may provide some relief, but the impact of slowing growth to corporate earnings will follow. In other words, the first leg down in equity markets was largely due to multiple compression; the next is likely to be downward earnings revisions,” Goodwin said in a note to clients.
“With so much recent volatility, investors have been asking if bad news isn’t already priced in. I’d argue that the market reaction to early earnings releases suggests that slowing economic activity is nowhere near priced in. Earning estimates are likely to continue their decline until we see a bottoming in leading economic indicators. We are not there yet, suggesting volatility ahead for risk assets,” she said.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,840
- Reaction score
- 9,893
- Points
- 9,821
- Location
- Southeast
- Attending Physician
ROBERT PAVLIK, SENIOR PORTFOLIO MANAGER, DAKOTA WEALTH, IN FAIRFIELD, CONNECTICUT "It's disappointing, but it's not a surprise. We've been heading that way." "People are concerned about the Federal Reserve, the direction of interest rates, the health of the economy, and also the next couple of weeks with earnings season coming up and companies reporting lower-than-expected earnings." (The support level for the S&P is) "a stretch at 3400, maybe 3200 and the worst case is probably 3000."
D
deleted1116990
The technicals trigger algorithmic trading. Anybody who doesn't believe in concepts of support and resistance is a fool. These are not psychological or superstitious concepts. Retail investors are along for the ride. Circuit breakers and plunge protection team are there for a reason to prevent it from spiraling out of control in a positive feedback loop.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2008
- Messages
- 7,495
- Reaction score
- 4,187
- Points
- 6,886
- Location
- Utah
- Attending Physician
i think we test 61.8%
D
deleted87051
Glad you brought back some perspective. We are still far above 2019 levels. 3 short years ago. Easy come, easy go. Thank you.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2007
- Messages
- 4,905
- Reaction score
- 3,314
- Points
- 6,651
- Age
- 55
- Location
- San Diego
- Attending Physician
Oh brother.
I’m always incensed by people who can’t recognize accomplishments of a member of the other party.
Try to get a Republican to mention three things they liked about Clinton and they break down and cry. Trying to get a Democrat to mention three things Bush did great will make their head explode.
Let’s see if Vector2 can tackle just one positive thing Drumph did - I bet they can’t!
Try not to be like that. Biden is an idiot…yes. He was a horrible pick for a president. But surprisingly, he has made some pretty good choices on a FEW things. I promise you - if you acknowledge and recognizing these things, no one will take your Republican card or belt buckles away, and they’ll still let you hunt and buy some BBQ in Texas. 🙂
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 7,313
- Reaction score
- 20,116
- Points
- 9,596
- Attending Physician
It's ironic that @pgg brought up "both sides" ism earlier because it segued perfectly into your ridiculous sentiment.
There's plenty of decent spots within the entirety of the Dubya or Bush I or Reagan administrations that a leftist could bring up and laud. But for the life of me I will never be able to understand how some people think Trump was just another politician. I may disagree with the majority of Dubya 's or Reagan's politics, but not for a second do I think they were criminals or grossly, grossly corrupt or *pauses for emphasis* definitely in favor of overturning free and fair elections so they could become quasi-fascist a-holes like Bolsonaro or Orban.
The latter is what Trump stands for. The big lie will be his legacy. Paying lip service to his starting the withdrawal from Afghanistan or talking tough on China is a meaningless drop in the bucket in comparison to his effort to destroy democracy. And it's sad that fact isn't obvious to everyone.
D
deleted1130227
Trump motivated more people to register and turn out to vote than any other person in history.
🙂
🙂
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2008
- Messages
- 7,495
- Reaction score
- 4,187
- Points
- 6,886
- Location
- Utah
- Attending Physician
2008 wiped out 10 years of gains in sp500. If this crash wipes out 10 years of gains then sp500 goes to 1200
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2007
- Messages
- 4,650
- Reaction score
- 8,400
- Points
- 7,636
- Fellow [Any Field]
- Attending Physician
But also ignited a campaign to disenfranchise them and, if SCOTUS rules in favor of the North Carolina case, bypass them entirely.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2007
- Messages
- 4,905
- Reaction score
- 3,314
- Points
- 6,651
- Age
- 55
- Location
- San Diego
- Attending Physician
I don’t think my sentiment is ridiculous. We see it all the time. People can’t even fathom recognizing the good in the “enemy”.
And you proved my point. Others have proved it over and over on this forum.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,840
- Reaction score
- 9,893
- Points
- 9,821
- Location
- Southeast
- Attending Physician
2008 was the financial crisis. We thought the entire system was going under. This isn't 2008 and the most severe recession with a bear market reduces the S and P 500 by 50% to 2400. That's your worst case scenario.
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 7,313
- Reaction score
- 20,116
- Points
- 9,596
- Attending Physician
Nah. Only thing that's been proved by your response (which didn't actually address anything I said in the rest of my post) is that you don't understand false equivalences or "both sides" fallacies.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2008
- Messages
- 7,495
- Reaction score
- 4,187
- Points
- 6,886
- Location
- Utah
- Attending Physician
wait for it to break
D
deleted1116990
We're still operating in an environment where breaching March 2020 lows or even having house prices return to 2019 levels with 30 year mortgages hitting 10% is even considered remotely possible. There is this idea, based on nothing, that the S&P's definite floor is 3000, 3200, whatever. When the mob starts realizing this might not be true, watch out.
There was likely a strategic attack on the Nord Stream gas pipeline. These are the events that start wars.
Thought experiment. If there were a nuclear strike(s). would you be buying VTI during the inevitable black swan crash the next day. Great buying opportunity? Stonks always go up?
The Boglehead fallacy is one of timelines. We can't guarantee US equity returns in 5-10 years, but over a 20-30 year timeframe we can so just don't think and always be buying VTI. This is absurd. There is no law of nature that says VTI's ATH can't ever be reached again during your remaining years on this Earth. Think when you buy things. Do research. Analyze the risk. Figure out if it's a good value. Hurricane headed to Florida? Don't worry about it, go to the beach anyway because statistically 99.99% days of the year Florida is not being hit by hurricanes, so the odds are greatly in your favor.
There was likely a strategic attack on the Nord Stream gas pipeline. These are the events that start wars.
Thought experiment. If there were a nuclear strike(s). would you be buying VTI during the inevitable black swan crash the next day. Great buying opportunity? Stonks always go up?
The Boglehead fallacy is one of timelines. We can't guarantee US equity returns in 5-10 years, but over a 20-30 year timeframe we can so just don't think and always be buying VTI. This is absurd. There is no law of nature that says VTI's ATH can't ever be reached again during your remaining years on this Earth. Think when you buy things. Do research. Analyze the risk. Figure out if it's a good value. Hurricane headed to Florida? Don't worry about it, go to the beach anyway because statistically 99.99% days of the year Florida is not being hit by hurricanes, so the odds are greatly in your favor.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2021
- Messages
- 4,923
- Reaction score
- 4,499
- Points
- 6,536
And there’s the pivot. Bank of England starting up bond buying program tomorrow. Coming soon to a central bank near you
D
deleted1116990
"Both sides" is not a logical fallacy. It's just your opinion that one side is entirely right and the other side is evil, all of it. That if you are sympathetic to positions from both sides (or don't identify with a side at all), you are really just on one side.
How quickly everyone forgets history. The left always does this with right wing presidents. When Bush was in power, he was an evil idiot and everybody reminisced about the days when we had the kind hearted Reagan who liked jelly beans. Criminal? Bush was a war criminal responsible for American deaths (when Clinton lied, nobody died, etc). When McCain and Romney came alone, you started seeing people being more sympathetic to Bush as kind of a loveable buffoon who could work across the aisle. Romney, one of the most moderate republicans there is, was portrayed by Biden as "wanting to put you (black Americans) back in chains." When Trump came along, McCain was straight up sympathized as a victim and on the left's side and we remembered how moderate Romney really was. And now it's happening with DeSantis. The narrative is that he is worse than Trump with even more fascist-like tendencies and scarier because he carries himself better and commands more respect. They always do this. The next guy will always be Hitler and they will look back and say, well Trump was a horrible person but his foreign policy wasn't awful and he wanted to keep us out of wars, etc. It hasn't had enough time to fully play out but it will. When the old guy is irrelevant and no longer a threat he becomes useful to demonize the new guy who is a threat. Trump is still presently a threat.
This is not to defend Trump, but just to point out the political playbook.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2008
- Messages
- 7,495
- Reaction score
- 4,187
- Points
- 6,886
- Location
- Utah
- Attending Physician
a job well done
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 7,313
- Reaction score
- 20,116
- Points
- 9,596
- Attending Physician
I didn't say it was a logical fallacy. One can say a line of thought is fallacious without it having to violate a tenet of classical logic. See definition 1 and then look at definition 4.
I don't think anyone is forgetting history. All the things that were terrible about the Reagan and Dubya administrations....are still terrible- and I'll tell you as much. And none of those things from the Reagan or Dubya administrations became any less terrible just because another R candidate entered the scene.
What you are doing is cherry picking one isolated quote or one extreme point of view about those Republicans instead of actually describing the totality of the general sentiment about those presidents and their respective terms (like for instance someone claiming that all Republicans share the racist birther belief about Obama just because trump and a couple other loudmouths espoused that view). It seems your desire is to make a false equivalence that criticism of trump from the left is the same as all the historical leftist criticism of all those other Republicans.
But the criticism is not the same. It's just not. Trump (and the rest of the MAGA movement) have a 4+ year history of being categorically different in almost every measure to all prior presidents from both parties, and there's objective evidence for that claim. The most important being that he still remains the only former president to start a campaign of misinformation before the election to spread the (knowingly false) claim of widespread voter fraud, lose the election, pressure the GA sec of state to illegally change votes, pressure his VP to overturn a free and fair election at the electoral vote count, incite a riot to illegally stop that electoral vote count, and years after the fact he's still never conceded that he lost the election. And that's before we even get to the twice impeached part, the widespread corruption, resignations, and convictions within his cabinet and staff, or the 5 or 6 ongoing civil or criminal investigations he's currently facing.
Long story short, the idea that trump is the same as all the others, or that his legacy in the history books will be mostly reminiscences about his isolationist foreign policy....is frankly delusional.
Last edited:
D
deleted1116990
Bro, the democrats literally spent 4 years screaming that the election of 2016 was illegitimate because the Russians changed the outcome and trying to get an elected president thrown out of office. That Trump colluded with Russia to alter the outcome of the election. Based on made up stories about things like pee tapes.
To be clear, I'm not defending Trump's handling of the election. But both sides (gasp) are guilty of trying to sew doubt about elections. I don't really have an interest in pledging total allegiance to either group as they have both behaved like asshats. Of course you will say Trump's side engaged in far worse asshattery. It doesn't make the whole Russia Ukraine pee tape thing less bad from the other side. It's just annoying as someone in the middle (yes, I know you don't believe there is such a thing) watch those who demand to live in this fantasy that their extreme is squeaky clean.
You are right about one thing though. That Trump was categorically different from all prior presidents from both parties. That's precisely why he won the nomination and subsequently the election in 2016. Funny that people are still scratching their heads about this. If the democrats can't figure this out within the next couple of years and run another Hillary or Biden character in 2024 they are going to get clobbered unless Trump somehow is able to survive until then and we will go through all this crap all over again. And yes, I guarantee you that whoever the republicans run in 2024, he (or she) will be painted as worse than Trump. Like I said, DeSantis already is unless you are not paying attention. This is how this always works. People won't forget about 1/6 but it will fade in favor of whatever national panic/crisis is going on with the new guy (and there will be one, there has to be). Trump is old and his days are numbered. He sounds feeble. Moderate republicans have abandoned him. It is a matter of time until he becomes irrelevant and you can't use him to rile up your base much.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 7,313
- Reaction score
- 20,116
- Points
- 9,596
- Attending Physician
Yeah, uh, I think it's pretty clear whatever media bubble you live in has sold you on the hilariously wrong idea that trump's feigned victimhood has merit and that there's some grand conspiracy out there to get him.
But if you ever get out of that bubble, you'll learn that besides trump coming right out on national TV and saying "Russia, if you're listening..." ....beyond Paul Manafort going to jail for laundering oligarch money.....beyond Don Jr saying *in writing* he'd welcome Russian dirt on hillary... there was just an insane amount of smoke that was eminently worthy of inquiry and investigation.
But alas, when you're stuck in the bubble, the only (mis)info you get spoonfed is nonsense like the idea that it was just a witchhunt about "pee tapes "
In case you didn't know, this is definitely, definitely, definitely one of those classic examples of fallacious both sides-ism where someone [you] tries to pretend both sides are equally at fault when very, very clearly one side has essentially all of the culpability.
There you go again with that strawman that it was just all about pee tapes.
I think there's probably still some kind of middle out there like some center-right Rs, center-left Ds, and a select few libertarians. But one thing I can say is that you or any other trump apologist are definitely not in the middle.
Lol, dude, you not comprehending that the "I'm going to destroy democracy by convincing millions of people there was widespread voter fraud, call state and federal officials to get them to illegally throw votes, incite a riot, and then never, ever concede" part is the important categorical difference between trump and the rest....is about the same as you not understanding that there's a categorical difference between sinusitis and stage IV lung cancer.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2005
- Messages
- 17,331
- Reaction score
- 27,233
- Points
- 8,756
- Location
- Home again
- Attending Physician
Like all great falsehoods, there's juuuust enough truth to what you're writing to make the narrative sound plausible.
But Trump actually is every bit as awful as the left says he is.
No, he didn't slam his tiny little fist down on the nuclear button, so he wasn't all bad. But he's different, in an awful way, than any of the other presidents you listed, and it's just disingenuous BS to chalk it all up to mere policy differences and the opposition party's rhetoric of the moment.
Some day, I hope you Trump apologists are able to step back and admit (even if only quietly to yourselves) ... that whoa, Trump was one really ****ed up awful dude to have in charge of the country.
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2005
- Messages
- 17,331
- Reaction score
- 27,233
- Points
- 8,756
- Location
- Home again
- Attending Physician
If there's a silver lining to this bizarre episode of American politics, it's that cult leaders like Trump don't prepare for their own deaths by grooming and preparing a successor. A quirk of megalomania, if you will. There's no heir.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2010
- Messages
- 3,558
- Reaction score
- 6,776
- Points
- 6,656
- Attending Physician
DeSantis seems to be an evil spawn.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,840
- Reaction score
- 9,893
- Points
- 9,821
- Location
- Southeast
- Attending Physician
This thread is about stocks and I derailed it. But, I will post my comment then move on. I want this thread to stay open and on topic if possible. You are free to open a political thread. Here is my comment:
I don't like Trump. Most of my friends and colleagues, an educated group, don't like him either. But, the policies espoused by the Far Left, which is now the modern democrat party, don't line up with our economic or ideological beliefs. Trump is the lesser of 2 evils for many of us so we voted for him. Biden's Presidency has done NOTHING to change that view. Trump may be a narcissist and a criminal, but I would still vote for him over Biden. Again, I don't like the man at all but I firmly believe the Democrat Party's platform will destroy this nation. I am just as fervent in my beliefs as Vector 2 is in his that the GOP wants to destroy Democracy and take away your freedoms. This nation is as divided politically as in 1859 and you know how that ended. Despite the Far Left SDN members on here, I am a moderate GOP voter. A person who supports the legality of abortion even though I believe it is a sin and morally wrong. A person who believes in the legality of Gay Unions and the right for an ADULT To change his/her sex. A person who supports a social safety net, clean air and water as well as a responsible energy policy including solar.
No matter how much Vector 2 likes to paint me as Far right, I am a moderate Trump voter who chooses the GOP because we believe in the founding principles of this nation: Limited govt, freedom of speech without being cancelled, Hard work without handouts, low taxes, Judeo-Christian based ideology,
Support for the police, legal immigration with secure borders, a long transition from carbon energy sources to green energy, racial equality in all areas of public life without preference, etc
Again, the GOP has failed miserably at promoting some of these core beliefs in the past, but at least they pay lip service to them. I will never vote for a candidate like Fetterman or Warnock who will clearly never support anything on my agenda. That's why we choose a Trump over a Biden and will do so every single time. One last thing, many of us view Biden as just as much a crook and liar as Trump but the mainstream media refuses to expose him. Even the Justice department appears biased against Trump while ignoring the illegal actions of Biden and his son. In the end, we see the flawed candidates on both sides of the political spectrum but still prefer the one which supports our agenda.
_________
GOP= PRO AMERICA, PRO GOD and PRO FAMILY
DEMS= Socialists seeking to destroy America, Atheists/Hate God, Hates the Family, Woke
That's the Redneck version for you.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2007
- Messages
- 22,840
- Reaction score
- 9,893
- Points
- 9,821
- Location
- Southeast
- Attending Physician
One last thing 74 million Americans voted for Trump in the last election. Yes, Trump lost the election in 2020 but he still got 74 million votes and my hunch is many millions of his voters didn't like him. I also suspect Biden won the election because people though he was a moderate Democrat not a Far Left Liberal.
This next Presidential Election will likely result in a different outcome as long as Trump isn't the GOP nominee.
thehill.com
Should DeSantis become the Republican nominee, voters across the country will have to ask themselves: Which version of America do they want, Florida or California? Betting from the U-Haul rental statistics, we already know the answer.
This next Presidential Election will likely result in a different outcome as long as Trump isn't the GOP nominee.
Florida v. California: The fight for 2024
Gavin Newsom wants to bring the California model nationwide. The Golden State governor is likely preparing a bid for the White House in 2024 if President Biden doesn’t run. Assuming Biden and Donal…
thehill.com
Should DeSantis become the Republican nominee, voters across the country will have to ask themselves: Which version of America do they want, Florida or California? Betting from the U-Haul rental statistics, we already know the answer.
D
deleted643396
This was the dumbest thing I ever read…by far. There’s not even something close.
Also, I’m an atheist and I love my family. How can an atheist hate god? Seems silly to hate something that doesn’t exist.
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 7,313
- Reaction score
- 20,116
- Points
- 9,596
- Attending Physician
"Moderate trump voter" is the oxymoron of the decade.
And no, I don't believe the 'entire' GOP is trying to destroy democracy. For instance, I don't believe Mitt Romney or Adam Kinzinger are trying to destroy democracy.
I think Trump and the entire MAGA movement have been and are currently trying to destroy democracy, and there's plenty of evidence to support that assertion. But don't take my word for it. Liz Cheney had a 98% vote with trump record in Congress and you all essentially excommunicated her from the party.
Your entire post, particularly the part where you freely admit that trump is a "narcissist and a criminal" shows how little principle you truly have and how much you value the trump party over country. Just listen to yourself- you would rather vote for an abject criminal than support a 3rd party candidate who actually upholds our laws and our system of government.
And the sad part is, you dont even realize that trump is the last person on earth one would ever vote for if one's interests included "Limited govt, freedom of speech without being cancelled, Hard work without handouts, Judeo-Christian based ideology... racial equality, social safety net, clean air and water. " We all know he doesn't believe in any that...because he doesn't really believe in anything except self-aggrandizement. Ultimately, you gave up all your political principles in favor of a candidate who has none of his own.
But you wanna know what true moderates think about trump? Look no further than @pgg. I vehemently disagree with him about numerous things and you vehemently disagree with him about numerous things, so I think we both know he's not all the way to the right or left. Furthermore, his single biggest issue, 2A, benefited (and would've continued to benefit) from a trump vote, but yet he flatly refused to vote for him. Take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself why, blade.
Last edited:
Arch Guillotti
Senior Member
Staff member
Administrator
Volunteer Staff
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2001
- Messages
- 9,978
- Reaction score
- 7,456
- Points
- 6,606
- Attending Physician
lol in all the years we have been yapping at each other this may be your best one of all. Bravo!
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2005
- Messages
- 17,331
- Reaction score
- 27,233
- Points
- 8,756
- Location
- Home again
- Attending Physician
Maybe 2024 Trump voters, if it comes to that.
In defense of the 74M people (many of them, anyway) who voted for him in 2020, they did that before Jan 6. You and I and many others saw Trump for what he was the day he declared his 2016 candidacy, but I can see how and why others held their nose to his personal flaws (even criminal flaws) because they thought judicial appointments and isolationism and Chinese trade wars etc etc etc made it all a net positive.
I think you and I would agree that he was the same turd on Jan 6 2021 as he was on Jan 6 2020, but I think that day is a line in history and a defining event for others who were willing to vote for him (or against Biden). I don't think he'd get 74M votes in 2024. I hope we don't have to find out.
Liz Cheney getting primaried gives me pause and makes me worry that the Cult is alive and well, but I really don't know if I believe primary voters are the true face of a party. I think the 2020 election was Trump's high water mark. He may even be in prison by 2024, though I don't have a lot of hope there.
