stupid IM questions

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hippocampus

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can someone please answer these?

1. when would you write dispo versus code status on a progress note?
2. how do you know which pain meds to give? (dilaudid, morphine, vicodin...etc).
3. why would someone surreptiously give themselves an excess of insulin?
4. why would someone drink methanol?

thanks!

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1. when would you write dispo versus code status on a progress note?

I don't do regularly this, so I don't know. I only mention dispo in a note when it comes up as part of the assessment.

2. how do you know which pain meds to give? (dilaudid, morphine, vicodin...etc).

Give whatever you want as long as it is NOT demerol, someone will yell at you.

3. why would someone surreptiously give themselves an excess of insulin?

Consult Psych, let them figure it out

4. why would someone drink methanol?

Usually accident. When you're making moonshine, and I've never done this, you have to distill correctly to make sure you are just getting the ethanol condensing. Or perhaps you have someone that gets ahold of methanol and thinks its the same thing.

Remember, the treatment is ethanol, in a pinch you can even give jack daniels by IV. It can also be dialyzed off (A, E, I(ntoxtiction[methanol and ethylene glycol noteable]), O, U).


NP
 
1. when would you write dispo versus code status on a progress note?
Usually at the bottom (i.e. Dispo: guarded/ stable/ critical condition, and then full code, no code, etc.)

2. how do you know which pain meds to give? (dilaudid, morphine, vicodin...etc).
Depends if they can take IV vs. PO. PO if you're trying to get them out the door, IV if they just got admitted or their pain is still not controlled. Also depends on the half life of the med you want. Fentanyl short, morphine longer. Allergies are important to take into account. Morphine also tends to be the most histaminergic and thus people tend to get most itchy with it.

3. why would someone surreptiously give themselves an excess of insulin?
Maybe it is not the patient but a caregiver, otherwise I agree with the psych thought.

4. why would someone drink methanol?
Trying to kill themselves. The other option to dialysis is fomepizole (Antizol) or the above mentioned alcohol drip. I believe the goal is to the alcohol level at about 0.1 (just above the legal driving limit). It works by competitively binding to the alcohol dehydrogenase so the methanol doesn't get broken down to formic acid.
 
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Dispo = disposition (or where to go from here) - home, rehab, skilled care, nursing home, morgue, etc. I tend to include this in most of my notes to remind me what the goal is.

Code status = to shock or not to shock? - always include this somewhere so that the poor schmuck who gets called when Mr. Jones' ticker stops tickin' knows if he should call the code, or just the family.

There is a condition called Munchausen's in which people do bad things to themselves to get attention, or Munchausen's by proxy in which people do bad things to someone else (usually their own kid) to get attention. And lets not forget there are also a small minority of diabetics who will withold their insulin so that they can lose weight (called diabulemia). Tends to need psych referral.

Any alcoholic will drink anything containing alcohol if desperate enough, including methanol or isopropyl alcohol. By the time they have sunk that low they usually don't care that it could kill or maim them.
 
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Choice of pain meds could easily encompass an hour-long lecture, but generally I consider the severity of pain (potency of drug), route of administration (do I want IV or po, through a PCA), half-life, side-effects, route of elimination, allergies, and cost. There are more esoteric reasons too. You'll often see outpatient clinicians use lots of vicodin or similar meds (like Zydone, Lortab, or other such preparations of hydrocodone plus acetaminophen) because they're not "schedule II" meds, and thus can legally be called in to a pharmacy, and can be written for refills. More potent, highly-regulated opioids such as oxycodone or oral morphine tabs, or even methadone, need to be written in hard copy form, and cannot be refilled, so they're more of a pain to manage in the outpatient setting.

Sometimes I choose pain meds based on staff comfort with their administration too. This sounds silly, but if you order 7-10mg of morphine IV for acute pain you're likely to get a page from an uncomfortable nurse. Interestingly, order 1mg of dilaudid IV and they won't bat an eyelash, despite the fact that this is about equivalent to 7.5-10mg of morphine! The potency is different, but as long as you dose the medication appropriately you could use either one...it's just that 1mg seems much safer to many people compared to 8 or 10mg. From some ER studies though, the effective dose of morphine for acute pain is about 0.01mg/kg, so for a typical 70kg person 7mg of morphine is appropriate (though you'll often see 4mg IV ordered as a reflex...it often doesn't do much, not surprisingly). Also, morphine tends to have more autonomic effects, such as hypotension from vasodilation, which you may want in the case of chest pain/CHF, but may not want in the case of shock/sepsis, etc. It also tends to cause more side effects like itching, as mentioned above, and it's renally cleared, which is bad news sometimes. Its metabolite, morphine 6 glucoronide (if I spelled and remembered that correctly), can actually precipitate seizures, so you really shouldn't use IV morphine in renal failure patients, or should do so cautiously at least. I also never really use IV fentanyl since it's so short-acting, but this makes it great for ICU sedation/analgesia with a drip, since you can turn it off quickly, and also great for procedures like colonoscopies or EGDs, and acceptable for use in a PCA too (often seen post-op). But given its short half-life, a single IV dose on the wards for acute pain is kinda silly.

You also want to consider whether this is for short or long-term use. If someone has orthopedic surgery, you wouldn't typically start them on long-acting oxycodone (like Oxycontin), whereas if they have had 20 years of severe low back pain from an auto accident, with multiple surgeries, etc., or have pain from cancer, you would more likely start a long-acting medication. This gives you "smoother" pain control, without lots of peaks and valleys, thereby maximizing the pain relief and minimizing the symptoms of oversedation vs. inadequate analgesia. This is why methadone can be so great for chronic pain, since it's so absurdly long-acting, but it's also dangerous because it has QTc prolonging effects, and can cause fatal overdose and/or arrhythmia if not monitored and dosed very carefully.

Phew...that's a lot of info, and there's lots more to know too. But hopefully that's a helpful start for you!
 
I only go with a long-acting agent (usually Oxycontin) after I know how much of the short acting form they've been using (usually Oxycodone immediate release).

I've used Fentanyl in PCAs which is great if the patient is somewhat unstable (pt becomes hypotensive and can't hit the button, drug wears off fast) but more and more I've become frustrated with it for floor pain control for the same reason and instead go with Hydromorphone (Dilaudid) in my PCAs. I also like the fact that we can give oral Hydromorphone to make a transition to orals easier although I'm not sure if there's a long-acting oral Hydromorphone available.

And if I recall, Methadone has non-opioid effects including an alpha-2 agonist action which perhaps is beneficial in chronic pain. Given the complexity of Methadone I never start it myself but instead rely on the pain folks.

My acute floor management of pain is usually Hydromorphone IV push while getting the Hydromorphone PCA set up -> oral Oxycodone immediate release based off of the conversion from at least 12 hours (preferably 24) of the Hydromorphone PCA usage -> Oxycodone sustained release (all given with adjuncts such as Acetaminphen or less commonly, an NSAIDs).
 
Remember that healthcare professionals have easy access to insulin. Also, people do all sorts of things just to get attention. They may not all have Munchhausen's
 
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