Supreme Court Ruling, Race based admissions.

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The terms “qualified “ and “unqualified “ have no meaning. Everyone who passed out of high school is qualified to attend Harvard. It doesn’t mean one with 2.5/1150 and another with 4.0/1590 are equally qualified. Similarly, anyone who passed undergrad is qualified to attend a medical school. It doesn’t mean all who passed undergrad are equally qualified.

One Medical School (MD) says that their curriculum is extremely challenging, so they expect all the applicants to be well qualified and have a MCAT score of 490 and above :) Funny, they didn’t say everyone should have 472+. I am pretty sure they would have accepted many with mcat score of less than 500 and many with 520+. It doesn’t mean they are equally qualified. I am pretty sure they would have rejected many with 518+. Is it fair? Not to me.
I agree that these terms are arbitrary, and it depend on how the school defines them. Based on a given school's definition, they are qualified. I don't think there is a contradiction.

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Even worse, the word “Asian American” appears only 3 times in Justice Jackson’s 29 page dissent: once as a footnote, once as part of a list of median household incomes compared across racial groups, and then one other minor mention in her dissent.
Just noting, KBJ recused from the Harvard case as she served on the Board of Overseers, and the Asian American issue was not an issue in the UNC case as far as I am aware. I don't think she had no opinion or concern.

For what it is worth, showing all perspectives:
 
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Just noting, KBJ recused from the Harvard case as she served on the Board of Overseers, and the Asian American issue was not an issue in the UNC case as far as I am aware. I don't think she had no opinion or concern.

For what it is worth, showing all perspectives:
Thank you for adding the above perspectives. I really hope that none of the above Asian American groups that support AA also willingly support the judging of the personality of the applicants is an intrinsically subjective and flawed practice such as the controversial Harvard admissions Personality tests. Given its adverse effects on one racial minority group ( the ORM Asian-Americans), it’s important for admissions officers of all racial backgrounds to confront their subconscious biases.
 
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You’re focusing on the fact that wealthier URMs benefit when I think you should be focused on the goal of AA which is to do the things I mentioned, to improve the lives of blacks/Hispanics.
But this is what a lot of people are arguing about. If affirmative action predominantly just allows wealthy and upper middle-class URM immigrants to get into schools (which we know from data), how is this really benefitting the lives of the overall Black and Hispanic populations in this country?
 
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Why do they think it’s bad if blacks and Hispanics aren’t represented proportionally to their share of the population?
Their viewpoints equate to racial balancing, which was deemed unconstitutional in the Bakke, Grutter, and Fisher cases (1970s, 2003, and 2016, respectively). That was also something discussed in Chief Justice Roberts's opinion. Grutter had stated in 2003 that race-conscious admissions must end soon and must have a time-limit. In 2023 in SFFA, the justices asked UNC and Harvard when they planned on ending their race-conscious admissions. Neither provided a good answer; they simply stated "when sufficient diversity can be achieved without it". However, we know that this means they will only stop when each racial group naturally (without affirmative action) would make up the percentage of the student body in exact proportion to its percentage in the general population. Again, this is racial balancing and was deemed illegal many decades ago.

To specifically quote Chief Justice Roberts:

"Respondents’ admissions programs also lack a “logical end point” as Grutter required. 539 U. S., at 342. Respondents suggest that the end of race-based admissions programs will occur once meaningful representation and diversity are achieved on college campuses. Such measures of success amount to little more than comparing the racial breakdown of the incoming class and comparing it to some other metric, such as the racial makeup of the previous incoming class or the population in general, to see whether some proportional goal has been reached. The problem with this approach is well established: “[O]utright racial balancing” is “patently unconstitutional.” Fisher, 570 U. S., at 311."
 
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I feel an assumption you are making is that the individuals who got into medical school via race-based affirmative action programs were unqualified, which is untrue and reflects a lack of understanding of the admissions process. All students considered for admission have met the standards set by the school. After that, race is one factor considered. Your response reeks of resentment and entitlement and if there is anything we need less of, it's that.
As for the "K-12" work, it is as if you think this is not actively going on for over a century?
The issue isn't that anyone getting into medical school is "unqualified", but rather the issue is that admissions officers define what counts as "qualified" based on the race/ethnicity of the applicant.
 
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Your response here does not address the study I cited.
You didn't respond to OP's study he referenced:


"Conclusions: Little evidence of clinical benefit resulting from sex or race/ethnicity concordance was found. Greater matching of patients and providers by sex and race/ethnicity is unlikely to mitigate health disparities."

^^This study was from 2011 and involved more than 22,000 patients. Notably, 2011 was a time in which medical journals were much more accepting of research showing various perspectives. Now, medical journals are retracting articles right and left that don't conform to specific viewpoints. I personally don't think this study would ever be published in 2023, regardless of its merit.

I want to make it clear I absolutely think having more Black doctors in the field of medicine (particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds) is a great and amazing thing. But how we achieve that goal needs to be done fairly.
 
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You didn't respond to OP's study he referenced:


"Conclusions: Little evidence of clinical benefit resulting from sex or race/ethnicity concordance was found. Greater matching of patients and providers by sex and race/ethnicity is unlikely to mitigate health disparities."

^^This study was from 2011 and involved more than 22,000 patients. Notably, 2011 was a time in which medical journals were much more accepting of research showing various perspectives. Now, medical journals are retracting articles right and left that don't conform to specific viewpoints. I personally don't think this study would ever be published in 2023, regardless of its merit.

I want to make it clear I absolutely think having more Black doctors in the field of medicine (particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds) is a great and amazing thing. But how we achieve that goal needs to be done fairly.
Pretty sure the study I cited is an answer to it (even though they never asked, you did).
 
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But this is what a lot of people are arguing about. If affirmative action predominantly just allows wealthy and upper middle-class URM immigrants to get into schools (which we know from data), how is this really benefitting the lives of the overall Black and Hispanic populations in this country?
Because Black patients, as an example, still benefit from seeing Black doctors, whether those doctors are coming from wealth and upper middle class families or not. As one person I saw comment on another app put it, they still bring value to needed in URM communities (cultural competency, language competency, etc.)

Also, being a wealthy or upper middle class Black person does not save you -- they face the same health disparities as poorer Blacks (RE Serena Williams, Tori Bowie).
 
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Well, your years of observation are wrong, if Harvard admitted to such a notion, the court case would not have gone as far as the Supreme Court.
Harvard conducted an internal investigation that revealed that if academics alone were considered for admissions, the share of Asian Americans in their class would rise to 43%. If you add in legacy and personality/extracurricular considerations, that drops to 26%, which is still significantly higher than the actual 19% that they arrived at with race conscious admissions. Looking closely at the percentages in the stacked bar charts, you’ll clearly see the zero-sum nature of the game: in order for one group to benefit, another was clearly hurt.

Further in that same article, you’ll see that Harvard rated Asian applicants higher in every way except in their personality when compared to white applicants. This is deeply troubling and, combined with white-favoring legacy preferences, results in white admit rate outpacing Asian rates at every academic rating. See Table 5.2 for proof that this admit rate gap becomes dramatically wider when comparing Asian Americans against those who typically benefit from affirmative action.

Of course, Harvard would never just admit to this being the case because it is completely indefensible. Instead they claim that their own report was generated on “incomplete” data and paints a misleading picture. Then when a different statistician released his report confirming all this and more on a much more comprehensive and recent set of admissions data, they went into full denial.
 
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Because Black patients, as an example, still benefit from seeing Black doctors, whether those doctors are coming from wealth and upper middle class families or not. As one person I saw comment on another app put it, they still bring value to needed in URM communities (cultural competency, language competency, etc.)

Also, being a wealthy or upper middle class Black person does not save you -- they face the same health disparities as poorer Blacks (RE Serena Williams, Tori Bowie).
There is so much more nuance than randomly classifying so many different people of different backgrounds into a simple Tag “URM” which has conveniently agglomerated everyone irrationally: Generational African Americans, Immigrant Blacks, Hispanic Americans and undocumented Latinos and Native Americans.
And that is the fatal flaw of AA and corroborated by the fact that American consensus (75%) disapproves race as a factor in admissions.

Drilling down into the differences between Hispanic Americans and African Americans, the children and grandchildren of Mexican-American immigrants are less likely to be raised in poverty than African Americans. Also, they are more likely to own homes and accumulate more wealth than blacks. This is particularly true for families of legal immigrants since they and their children have greater access to better schools and more secure employment.

Since we proudly support practice of evidence-based medicine, I would sincerely hope that you would agree that using the word URM ( just as the word ORM) to represent so many peoples/races/backgrounds to call them all “disadvantaged” is simply disingenuous and unfair to everyone.
 
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US medical education and the US medical system would collapse as we know it.
Agreed. Then the question is what metrics will be used for medical school admissions? And for competitive specialties, how will applicants be selected? While GPA and MCAT may be far from perfect, they are still a necessary evil (and even GPA is often hard to compare apples to apples across multiple undergrad institutions). Without objective metrics, medical schools and residency programs would be choosing solely based on measures that are largely subjective like interview performance, connections, research productivity, personal statement essays, etc..
 
The Pro-affirmative action wing of our society is largely grounded in misrepresentation of why AA is necessary, and the supposed benefits that our society accrues from it.

In medical education, the benevolent reason cited is simply called “race concordance,” which aims to pair physicians and patients of the same color on the grounds that it leads to better outcomes. This view has been endorsed across AAMC/ ACGME/ Med school Adcoms and the rest of the healthcare establishment. The racial concordance principle is repeatedly used to justify AA because the physician workforce doesn’t reflect America’s racial makeup. The above unscientific theory has allowed AA to thrive in medical schools without entertaining any counter points and questions.

The Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) reports that among medical school matriculants in 2022-2023 , African Americans had an average GPA of 3.55 and MCAT scores in the 64th percentile. Asian Americans, who incur the greatest penalty from affirmative action, had an average GPA of 3.80 and MCAT scores around the 89th percentile- all in the name of benefits to our society from “racial concordance”.

However the scientific conclusions do not agree with the “race concordance” theory:
Conclusions: Little evidence of clinical benefit resulting from sex or race/ethnicity concordance was found. Greater matching of patients and providers by sex and race/ethnicity is unlikely to mitigate health disparities.

The article doesn’t say health disparities aren’t being minimized. It just says that there was little evidence and that “race concordance is unlikely to mitigate health disparities.” Little evidence means we have to wait and see. Unlikely is a word you use when you aren’t sure of something. The article you cited is an older one but @summerdoc321 cited something more recent here:
"In counties with more Black doctors, Black people live longer, ‘astonishing’ study finds" (April 2023): In counties with more Black doctors, Black people live longer, ‘astonishing’ study finds

"The study, published Friday in JAMA Network Open, is the first to link a higher prevalence of Black doctors to longer life expectancy and lower mortality in Black populations. Other studies have shown that when Black patients are treated by Black doctors, they are more satisfied with their health care, more likely to have received the preventive care they needed in the past year, and are more likely to agree to recommended preventive care such as blood tests and flu shots. But none of that research has shown an impact on Black life expectancy."
which is proof that AA both works and that as time goes by, we see the benefits. @MedGirl26 this is the reply from @summerdoc321 to @Young&Wise , it’s a recent study and is proof that AA was/is working
 
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If you add in legacy and personality/extracurricular considerations, that drops to 26%, which is still significantly higher than the actual 19% that they arrived at with race conscious admissions.
Yes, this is how the colleges evaluate the applicant as a whole rather than just stats and call it holistic admission so that students can exchange different perspectives, viewpoints etc. Looking at the whole person mean in their world, branding an entire race of people as having negative personality and giving the same people negative boost for clicking Asian American check box. Vast majority of the country including the President defends this and calling it as justice.

Edit: This is also how colleges use race as just one of many many many criteria.
 
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Academic standards would plummet. We would literally be having doctors that could score bare minimum passing on these exams/classes and still be going to Harvard for dermatology residency. It would be insane and admission processes would become even more of a crap-shoot and based more on who you know and your connections.
Thankfully, I don't see this happening anytime soon.

Academic standards aren't the barrier to medical school, in my experience.

It's the other parts of being a good physician that stand in most applicants path: like empathy, the ability to work with patients without judging them, keeping an even temper when working with difficult people or in difficult situations, delivering culturally responsive care, developing the ability to allow patients to feel comfortable enough to share.

The extreme focus on both the myth of meritocracy and MCAT scores / GPA as main determinants of success in medical careers in this thread by some folks are a bit depressing, to be honest. I would hope future physicians are getting more well rounded training.
 
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I don’t understand this debate. Has no one against AA even so much as sniffed from afar any medium upon which the US Constitution may be displayed for viewing? Is AA not an effort to form a more perfect Union?

Medicine attracts selfish individuals. Underrepresented populations need representation in medicine for themselves. It is not about the person. It is about, quite literally, extending the life span of those in communities who have been disrespected, enslaved, undereducated, underfunded, and disregarded since the founding of this country.

So it is really too bad that another student who belongs to the “over represented majority” is rejected so that minority communities can have a better chance of getting adequate healthcare. Go do something else. If you really care about these communities as you ramble on about on forums and in personal statements, you would know that being a doctor is not the best way that you personally can help them.
 
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There is so much more nuance than randomly classifying so many different people of different backgrounds into a simple Tag “URM” which has conveniently agglomerated everyone irrationally: Generational African Americans, Immigrant Blacks, Hispanic Americans and undocumented Latinos and Native Americans.
And that is the fatal flaw of AA and corroborated by the fact that American consensus (75%) disapproves race as a factor in admissions.

Drilling down into the differences between Hispanic Americans and African Americans, the children and grandchildren of Mexican-American immigrants are less likely to be raised in poverty than African Americans. Also, they are more likely to own homes and accumulate more wealth than blacks. This is particularly true for families of legal immigrants since they and their children have greater access to better schools and more secure employment.

Since we proudly support practice of evidence-based medicine, I would sincerely hope that you would agree that using the word URM ( just as the word ORM) to represent so many peoples/races/backgrounds to call them all “disadvantaged” is simply disingenuous and unfair to everyone.
1688237524602.png

I like how you choose stats that don't tell the whole story.
 
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How should future applicants who need their background to help their application go about applying? Ideas on what we should we write? Someone mentioned the “impact essay?” Should we raise our clinical hours, volunteer hours, etc? I’m a URM/low SES and am reinventing myself with a very steep uptrend. What should people with similar circumstances as I do to increase their chances at getting into med school?

I know asking this might sound very strategic and maybe even pathetic to a few, but I’m not going to sit here, lie and say that some URMs, including me, weren’t already exploiting and heavily banking on their status to get into med school and it’s not that we think we’re not smart enough, it’s just that some of us messed up in the past in terms of grades and need whatever help we can get to get in.
Welcome to the club of everyone else who is low SES and who also messed up their grades early on and need to improve and re-invent themselves!
As the daughter of a CT surgeon at an elite teaching hospital, I can tell you that until you become an attending at your institution for 5+ years, the answer is no.

Socioeconomic status is largely defined as the social standing or class of an individual or group--often measured as a combination of education, income, and occupation.

How is the daughter of a CT surgeon at an elite teaching hospital a part of the low SES club? Unless I'm missing something(?)
 
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Academic standards aren't the barrier to medical school, in my experience.

It's the other parts of being a good physician that stand in most applicants path: like empathy, the ability to work with patients without judging them, keeping an even temper when working with difficult people or in difficult situations, delivering culturally responsive care, developing the ability to allow patients to feel comfortable enough to share.

The extreme focus on both the myth of meritocracy and MCAT scores / GPA as main determinants of success in medical careers in this thread by some folks are a bit depressing, to be honest. I would hope future physicians are getting more well rounded training.
Agreed. It's disturbing to see such a fixation on two parts of an equation with many components.

Plenty of people go to med school with a 500 MCAT and 3.5 GPA and become fine doctors; you really don't need to be in the 90th percentile of every statistic to be a standard doctor who follows guidelines and does a decent job. Frankly, I know a lot of doctors and other high level professionals without an ounce of common sense; I'd rather have a doc who had to work for a living and couldn't 100% pay attention to sophomore chemistry personally.
 
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Agreed. It's disturbing to see such a fixation on two parts of an equation with many components.

Plenty of people go to med school with a 500 MCAT and 3.5 GPA and become fine doctors; you really don't need to be in the 90th percentile of every statistic to be a standard doctor who follows guidelines and does a decent job. Frankly, I know a lot of doctors and other high level professionals without an ounce of common sense; I'd rather have a doc who had to work for a living and couldn't 100% pay attention to sophomore chemistry personally.
In a related line of reasoning: if grades and MCAT scores were the most important determinants of success, then we'd replace physicians with AI.
 
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Socioeconomic status is largely defined as the social standing or class of an individual group--often measured as a combination of education, income, and occupation.

How is the daughter of a CT surgeon at an elite teaching hospital a part of the low SES club? Unless I'm missing something(?)
She didn’t say she is low SES. But other fellow ORMs with low SES.
 
Plenty of people go to med school with a 500 MCAT and 3.5 GPA and become fine doctors;
But, the question is why such consideration is not given to Asian Americans and Whites? They also can become fine doctors, right? Why are we raising the bar so high for them if 500 is or 480 is sufficient?

Edit: To give you a context. One Asian American gentleman says in the thread that it took 4 cycles for him to get one acceptance with 513 or 524. I saw on Reddit , a girl with 506 received 15 interviews, attended 7 of them, all of them turned into acceptances with one T20 offering her full ride . This was her first cycle. Why so much difference?
 
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But, the question is that why such consideration is not given to Asian Americans and Whites. They also can become fine doctors, right?
I'm 100% sure that there are white and Asian people with similar stats in medical school.
 
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But, the question is that why such consideration is not given to Asian Americans and Whites. They also can become fine doctors, right?
I mean, there are plenty of Sankeys on Reddit that show ORMs with those types of stats also getting in to medical school
 
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I like how you choose stats that don't tell the whole story.
There are multiple polls that one can quote from such as BestColleges survey data indicated that that just 37% of students support using race and ethnicity in college admissions. And that the majority of Black respondents did not support affirmative action.


Contorting the medical school admission process to improved health outcomes for minorities is a social experiment, and not an evidence-based approach to reducing health care disparities.
All races and backgrounds are capable of becoming qualified, competent and compassionate physicians, and serving our vulnerable communities. It is racist to think otherwise.Yet, that doesn’t stop the medical regulatory bodies including LCME/ ACGME/AMA from trying out the various mental gymnastics and virtue signaling.
 
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It's disturbing to see such a fixation on two parts of an equation with many components.
That’s because mcat is the only standardized objective measure and mcat is very close to it. It takes talent and sustained effort of many years to score very high. There is no shortcut. On the other hand, other criteria are very subjective, can be obtained/achieved easily by anyone. Most importantly none of us have access to others’ essays, volunteering, clinical experiences etc and how adcoms scored them. In the world of “personality rating” and negative boost for checking the Asian American checkbox, people like me do not trust the Adcoms to score the subjective measures objectively. When someone reviews an application looking for reasons to accept vs reject, the same application will look entirely different, especially the subjective measures. So, we can’t have any meaningful conversation on anything other than mcat and gpa .
 
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I have been thinking about this over the past couple days from many different directions. If this is too much, here is the TLDR: Schools no longer have a simple way to discriminate based on race. Harvard demonstrated discrimination against Asian-Americans in undergrad admissions leading to the case. They have to use other methods if they value racial diversity. It will be very school dependent but probably not big of a change for medical school, probably more for undergraduate admissions. Examples and reasoning below.

Affirmative Action (AA) in principle was designed to help boost African-Americans and then women stemming from inequalities that were present at the time because of past laws/circumstances that hindered them from pursuing higher education. I think no one disagrees with the initial reasoning behind this. Nowadays, for college admissions, gender is not as significant of a factor for most schools (except some heavy STEM universities) so it doesn't even factor into most admissions processes.

However, the main issue with college/med school admission is it is basically a zero-sum game. There are a limited numbers of spots so by accepting one person, that slot is taken and is removed from the options of other applicants. At this point, things for undergrad admisions are so competitive that grades/test scores are basically not enough to separate students from one another. Even extracurriculars are not enough to separate students. Top universities could fill their undergrad class up multiple times with equally outstanding students with no real differences with regards to test scores, grades, and other activities. Therefore, it sometimes feel like a lottery to get into these top schools even for the best students.

With AA, there was an easy way to admit URM to keep racial diversity. There was a loose "pool" of applicants in which you could select the best from and made things look diverse. However, what was also apparent was there was an easy way to discriminate against Asian as seen with documents from Harvard. Examples include "lower personality traits" and "personal qualities". I will quote the most impactful statements.

Alumni interviewers give Asian-Americans personal ratings comparable to those of whites. But the admissions office gives them the worst scores of any racial group, often without even meeting them, according to Professor Arcidiacono.

Basically, being Asian was a negative factor just for their origins for undergrad admission. Here is the chart breaking it down. Basically, the personal rating was strongly influenced by race even though interviewers did not notice such a difference.

1688233300493.png


University officials did concede that its 2013 internal review found that if Harvard considered only academic achievement, the Asian-American share of the class would rise to 43 percent from the actual 19 percent. After accounting for Harvard’s preference for recruited athletes and legacy applicants, the proportion of whites went up, while the share of Asian-Americans fell to 31 percent. Accounting for extracurricular and personal ratings, the share of whites rose again, and Asian-Americans fell to 26 percent.

Here it shows that if race as a consideration was eliminated, Asians-American share would go from the estimated 19% to 26%.

The report found that Asian American applicants performed significantly better in rankings of test scores, academics, and overall scores from alumni interviews. Of 10 characteristics, white students performed significantly better in only one—rankings of personal qualities, which are assigned by the Admissions Office.
So basically, Asian-Americans had lower personal qualities despite significantly higher scores, academics, and better interviews. This was how applicants were being judged by the admission committee for Harvard undergrad.

This was the main rationale why use of race harmed Asian-americans even compared to Whites. Simply being grouped into a pool of competitive candidates who had to "fight it out among others in the pool" was a disadvantage and discrimination. I do not think you could argue against that given the evidence in this case. While AA was implemented primarily to help URM, the race aspects was also being used by schools such as Harvard to discriminate against Asians. Therefore, race in college admissions was being used simultaneously for AA and anti-asian discrimination. Could you theoretically separate the two? Probably but using race was the easy way for them to keep diversity with a simple algorithm. Even if they want to keep diversity now, it would not be as simple as they would have to design new algorithms/scores to do this. An example is prop 209 in California and it is a case-study after race was abolished as a factor. While an immediate drop in URM was noticed, they incorporated other measures to diminish this decrease.

The question is whether AA or use of race as a whole should be kept for the diversity reasons. That is a question of belief. While studies have shown physicians of the same race are more likely to provide more positive health outcomes, how far should diversity factor into admission decisions compared to academic and extracurricular achievements? Should this be a factor even in undergraduate admissions? Imagine two students who were in the same school, had similar SES, participated in the same extracurriculars and had similar academics. Their chances of admissions for the two should theoretically be the same. However, should their skin color be a key deciding factor as to who get into the top schools? Because that is the current system that was in place at Harvard undergrad.

On the other hand, would society be acceptable to student bodies that are not racial diverse or representative of the larger population? Would there be more protests and less motivation from some groups to try for these top schools? Is this a net benefit or harm to society? Those are the balancing questions schools have to decide.

Schools will have to decide how much they want to preserve diversity with the change in algorithms. There are schools like Caltech which only decide based on merit. Will more schools follow? Schools can still preserve diversity in other ways without directly using race, so to what extent will that be done?

For medical school, I tried to find statistics regarding if Asian Americans are harmed by current medical school admissions compared to white counterparts. In my opinion, it is not that significant, at least not as apparent as Harvard's undergrad admissions. Looking at the GPA and MCAT scores, the difference between white and asian is a 1.8 MCAT score difference in matriculants but there is also a 1.3 point difference in the applicants. The GPA were basically identical. Most of the top medical schools do not directly state the number of Asian Americans in their class profiles but of the ones that do, it is sometimes shockingly high. Harvard is 47%. Hopkins is 51% and UPenn is 36%. I really do not think it will get much higher but I could be wrong. At least, I would argue it is not as blatant discrimination. I still think URM is a very favorable characteristics in the current medical school admission process, as illustrated by Duke's admission profile (which also is oddly 73% female in their incoming class). UCSF has 54% URM though their median MCAT is 90th percentile, around 513!

Overall, it depends heavily on the school but I think the majority of medical schools do not have significant biases against Asian compared to whites. There are still significant efforts to have a diverse class profile, which once again in a zero-sum game will affect others. I doubt many will advocate for purely academics/achievements for medical school admission. The other side of the spectrum is near quota like or admissions focused not on academics which is even more outrageous. Some middle ground is selected and perhaps this decision might shift it slightly to the former than the latter.

Legacy and sports admissions for undergrad are an entire separate issue. In previous cases, the school mostly considers what you can do in the future. Legacy and sports are what your parents have done or what you can do for the school right now in addition to your future potential. Basically, the school decides whether legacy is important and may be rewarded or punished by donations/engagement or wasted slots. To get rid of them could lead to worse outcomes and more issues for the school so I doubt those will be affected or touched anytime in the near future.
 
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There are multiple polls that one can quote from such as BestColleges survey data indicated that that just 37% of students support using race and ethnicity in college admissions. And that the majority of Black respondents did not support affirmative action.


Contorting the medical school admission process to improved health outcomes for black patients is a social experiment, and not an evidence-based approach to reducing health care disparities.
All races and backgrounds are capable of becoming qualified, competent and compassionate physicians, and serving our vulnerable communities. It is racist to think otherwise.Yet, that doesn’t stop the medical regulatory bodies including LCME/ ACGME/AMA from trying out the various mental gymnastics and virtue signaling.
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Best College Surveys: I don't think you are actually reading these polls. A majority of the three options for blacks do support affirmative action.

Most recent Pew Research Poll (Im not sure why you are ignoring this- it was posted earlier):
1688241071775.png

If I choose to say 29% of Blacks disapprove based on the above poll, that is factually true. If I say a majority do not support, that is not i.e adding the "Not sure" as a disapprove.
 
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Best College Surveys: I don't think you are actually reading these polls. A majority of the three options for blacks do support affirmative action.

Most recent Pew Research Poll (Im not sure why you are ignoring this- it was posted earlier):
View attachment 373754
If I choose to say 29% of Blacks disapprove based on the above poll, that is factually true. If I say a majority do not support, that is not i.e adding the "Not sure" as a disapprove.
I think it is all dependent on how the question is asked because this poll by pew shows a much different picture because it does not provide the extra context that it would "increase the racial and ethnic diversity at the school":
1688241391848.png
 
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Edit: To give you a context. One Asian American gentleman says in the thread that it took 4 cycles for him to get one acceptance with 513 or 524. I saw on Reddit , a girl with 506 received 15 interviews, attended 7 of them, all of them turned into acceptances with one T20 offering her full ride . This was her first cycle. Why so much difference?
It's almost like there are significant diminishing returns on MCAT scores after 50th percentile or something.

You keep focusing on a test that is one relatively small factor in what makes someone an attractive candidate and a good physician.
 
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But this is what a lot of people are arguing about. If affirmative action predominantly just allows wealthy and upper middle-class URM immigrants to get into schools (which we know from data), how is this really benefitting the lives of the overall Black and Hispanic populations in this country?
I have already said multiple times that it helps because it tells black/Hispanic children that they can be more and do bigger things, of which they have thought the opposite for multiple generations. It improves representation, achievement, healthcare, and so on.

You might ask, well how could poor Hispanics/blacks possibly relate to wealthier ones? Gain inspiration from them? Even want to work with them? They look like them and more often than not, they actually share the same experiences and relate to one another very much. It’s not until recently that the wealthy black/Hispanic families being called into question have started becoming wealthy, so it’s not like they can’t relate whatsoever.

I feel like you’re either not reading everything people have been saying or just ignoring some of the points. This specific question (how does allowing wealthier blacks/Hispanics to take advantage of AA improve the overall population of Hispanics/blacks) has been answered multiple times here, not just by me, and the answers are legit benefits and have even been shown in a study cited by @summerdoc321
Their viewpoints equate to racial balancing, which was deemed unconstitutional in the Bakke, Grutter, and Fisher cases (1970s, 2003, and 2016, respectively). That was also something discussed in Chief Justice Roberts's opinion. Grutter had stated in 2003 that race-conscious admissions must end soon and must have a time-limit. In 2023 in SFFA, the justices asked UNC and Harvard when they planned on ending their race-conscious admissions. Neither provided a good answer; they simply stated "when sufficient diversity can be achieved without it". However, we know that this means they will only stop when each racial group naturally (without affirmative action) would make up the percentage of the student body in exact proportion to its percentage in the general population. Again, this is racial balancing and was deemed illegal many decades ago.

To specifically quote Chief Justice Roberts:

"Respondents’ admissions programs also lack a “logical end point” as Grutter required. 539 U. S., at 342. Respondents suggest that the end of race-based admissions programs will occur once meaningful representation and diversity are achieved on college campuses. Such measures of success amount to little more than comparing the racial breakdown of the incoming class and comparing it to some other metric, such as the racial makeup of the previous incoming class or the population in general, to see whether some proportional goal has been reached. The problem with this approach is well established: “[O]utright racial balancing” is “patently unconstitutional.” Fisher, 570 U. S., at 311."
What I’m asking for is the core reason as to why admissions feels that way? Wanting to improve lives does not equate to wanting to balance races.

You said,

“However, we know that this means they will only stop when each racial group naturally (without affirmative action) would make up the percentage of the student body in exact proportion to its percentage in the general population.”

We don’t know that’s what they mean. We’re not inside their heads. What we do know is that the purpose of AA isn’t to balance races; it’s to improve lives. The goal is not necessarily to make things proportionate in terms of the black/Hispanic population in colleges but to, along with other things, ensure that blacks/Hispanics will try/know that they have opportunities to do anything and become anything they want in this country.
I want to make it clear I absolutely think having more Black doctors in the field of medicine (particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds) is a great and amazing thing. But how we achieve that goal needs to be done fairly.
Let’s keep it real. Even if medical schools and other colleges only use low SES, people are still going to say, “well that’s not fair because I earned it more than they did and it should be merit based.”

There will be multiple cases of low-SES students with 3.5 509 getting in over 3.9 524 wealthier kids.

I think the greater good beats fairness in this case and thing is, it’s not all that unfair. Asians and whites are still getting in. If an Asian didn’t get in, it’s because they didn’t do better (not just grades) than the next Asian.
 
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I think it is all dependent on how the question is asked because this poll by pew which was conducted only a couple of weeks prior shows a much different picture because it does not provide the extra context that it would "increase the racial and ethnic diversity at the school":
I say the 2023 poll is more accurate as it gives the "why" for affirmative action.
 
It's almost like there are significant diminishing returns on MCAT scores after 50th percentile or something.

You keep focusing on a test that is one relatively small factor in what makes someone an attractive candidate and a good physician.
Please read my comment #396
 
I say the 2023 poll is more accurate as it gives the "why" for affirmative action.
Yeah, I agree with you that this poll is better. I just think it is super important that people don't just use statistics or polls to support them without actually understanding how the questions were asked or gathered. Overall, I think affirmative action is probably an issue that is 50/50 in the US.
 
Please read my comment #396
You mean the one I quoted in the comment you're replying to that you subsequently edited?

The fact that it's an objective measure doesn't mean it's a particularly useful one. We could use applicant height as an objective measure, but that doesn't mean it correlates with what is needed to be a good physician well.
 
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I think all of this supports the fact that 73.5% of all statistics are made up. But I'll defer to @LizzyM
 
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You mean the one I quoted in the comment you're replying to that you subsequently edited?

The fact that it's an objective measure doesn't mean it's a particularly useful one. We could use applicant height as an objective measure, but that doesn't mean it correlates with what is needed to be a good physician well.
I agree with your assessment. MCAT score and height are equally relevant and impactful to medical school. I get it.
 
There are multiple polls that one can quote from such as BestColleges survey data indicated that that just 37% of students support using race and ethnicity in college admissions. And that the majority of Black respondents did not support affirmative action.


Contorting the medical school admission process to improved health outcomes for minorities is a social experiment, and not an evidence-based approach to reducing health care disparities.
All races and backgrounds are capable of becoming qualified, competent and compassionate physicians, and serving our vulnerable communities. It is racist to think otherwise.Yet, that doesn’t stop the medical regulatory bodies including LCME/ ACGME/AMA from trying out the various mental gymnastics and virtue signaling.
From the article,


They write, “Nearly half of Black Americans (47%) say they approve of colleges and universities considering prospective students’ racial and ethnic backgrounds when making admissions decisions, compared with 29% who disapprove (24% are not sure).”

The 24%, I guarantee you that a lot, if not most, of that 24% are blacks who are skeptical and to themselves wondering if using race is some sort of trick, and if not now but in the future, to prevent blacks from attending college. They say they’re unsure because for a lot of them, it’s hard to believe that colleges want to help a people who were once enslaved.
 
From Mother Jones article:
“Nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise,” Roberts wrote at the end of his opinion.

“A benefit to a student who overcame racial discrimination, for example, must be tied to that student’s courage and determination… In other words, the student must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual—not on the basis of race.”

The loophole is clear: The students who were previously categorized as "black" by admission officers will now just be categorized as "courageous and determined due to their overcoming the inherent obstacles of being black in America." Affirmative action is here to stay. You have to be quite naïve to think that this SCOTUS ruling will change anything.
 
I haven't formed an opinion on all this yet (as someone who did not grow up in North America and am learning about why race is a huge issue in education here), but I think I understand where both sides are coming from, and would like more clarification.

So firstly, my understanding of both sides is summarized as following:
I see that one side is advocating for more URM doctors through admitting more URM applicants to improve healthcare to the minority communities in the US, and the overall greater good of these communities.

I see that another side is advocating for equitable assessment of every applicant during medical school admissions (by not giving one race more consideration over another because that otherwise is discriminatory and inherently racist).

I do see both side's POV and agree with them both.

However, I have a few questions I have that I can't seem to find the answer to and would appreciate if someone can help improve my understanding of this topic:
  1. What caused the African American and Hispanic communities to be underrepresented in medicine?
  2. What caused the minority communities such as the Asian American communities to be overrepresented in medicine?
  3. Also when we say Asian American here, do we mean ALL Asians (East Asians, South East Asians, South Asians, Southwest Asians, and Central Asians)? or are we referring to a specific group of Asians?
I would appreciate if anyone could guide me! Thank you in advance!
1. Consequences of slavery, Jim crow laws/systemic discrimination, and low SES for blacks. Hispanics immigrants are more likely to be low SES, less educated backgrounds, and less support/role models from the community to pursue medicine.

2. Asian American usually immigrate to the U.S with higher educational backgrounds though still mostly low SES initially. There is a larger educational emphasis in the culture as seen in many Asian countries. Parents of Asian-Americans are more likely to push their children towards academics rather than entertainment/athletics.

3. It is usually all Asian because it is a question you select for classifications. Categories usually like (White, Black, Latino, Asian, Native American/Alaska Native, and Native Hawaiian)
 
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Glad we could reach a logical and amicable conclusion to this sidebar.
I strongly disagree. All the data we have (see pages 20-25) shows that grades and the MCAT are strong predictors of medical school performance (including clerkship grades) with no real sign of diminishing returns (clear linear relationship all the way through the 100th %ile). If you want to argue that medical school performance is not predictive of performance as a physician, then what would we have left? Admissions would become a completely subjective process left up to the whims and personal biases of each application reader.
 
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It's almost like there are significant diminishing returns on MCAT scores after 50th percentile or something.

You keep focusing on a test that is one relatively small factor in what makes someone an attractive candidate and a good physician.
No offence, but are you implying/assuming (without knowing anything about my application) that being Asian makes me less likely to be ´´an attractive candidate and a good physician´? After all it took me 4 cycles to get one A.
 
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just justify systematic racism because of a non-causal link with life expectancy for your favorite race. what a horrible argument.
So do you just think that black and brown patients don’t face racism in medicine? There’s so many studies out there that prove this. Do you think the studies were made up?
 
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From Mother Jones article:


The loophole is clear: The students who were previously categorized as "black" by admission officers will now just be categorized as "courageous and determined due to their overcoming the inherent obstacles of being black in America." Affirmative action is here to stay. You have to be quite naïve to think that this SCOTUS ruling will change anything.
Sadly, you might be correct in that assumption. The American Council on Education, a nonprofit focused on the impacts of public policy on higher education, recently convened a panel dedicated to planning after the demise of affirmative action; admissions directors and consultants emphasized the need “to educate students about how to write about who they are in a very different way,” expressing their “full authentic story” and “trials and tribulations.”
Basically, it will boil down to how a personal story/essay can be written with the help of college consultants- to write about their race through formulaic and traumatic narrative tropes, without actually checking a race box. Once again, the wealthy URMs who can afford the consultation fees and the creative editing services to articulate and magnify the micro-aggressions and disadvantages in their lives due to their race/ethnicity, will easily win over the low SES applicants who despite their tremendous hardships and disadvantages can barely afford the AMCAS/ med school application fees, much less these expensive college consultants.
 
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just justify systematic racism because of a non-causal link with life expectancy for your favorite race. what a horrible argument.
In fairness, it's almost impossible to establish causal links in the soft sciences. Having skimmed the publication, I think they did an excellent job of accounting for all the potential confounds that I could come up with (e.g. total physician count, poverty level, % with less than a high school degree, obesity rate, etc.). This is about as close as you can get to proving that better Black representation among physicians directly yields better health outcomes for Black community members.

We need more studies like this. It is this kind of data that has convinced me that, despite its damaging effects on Asian-American applicants (Can we all just acknowledge this? That was my only reason for interjecting in this conversation), race-conscious admissions were a net good. It feels like a very natural extension of the principle of clinical equipoise. Now that we know more proportional Black representation yields better Black health outcomes, it would be unethical not to do what we can to achieve that. Affirmative action was one solution, but now that it's gone, I still think schools could make great strides toward this goal by expanding their outreach efforts to minority applicants (see UC schools where affirmative action has been banned for decades).
 
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No offence, but are you implying/assuming (without knowing anything about my application) that being Asian makes me less likely to be ´´an attractive candidate and a good physician´? After all it took me 4 cycles to get one A.
I'm not sure why you would read that into my post? I was replying to a very specific quotation by another poster, and all I said was that MCAT scores, in and of themselves, aren't all that it takes to be an attractive candidate and a good physician.
 
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