Surprising Attitudes of MDs Towards DOs While I Was Shadowing

[SyrianHero]

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I am not trying to bring up any controversy about MDs vs DOs, rather I want to just express my surprise at the attitude of some of the MD physicians that I was shadowing. I made it a habit to ask the MD doctors that I was shadowing to explain to me what the differences are between MDs and DOs, even though I already knew the differences between the two, but I wanted to see their attitude toward DOs. Surprisingly the reaction that I got was one of derision. For example, I asked an orthopedic surgeon that I heard that some DOs go into orthopedic surgery since they have classes dedicated to the study of the musculoskeletal system and his response was that DOs believe in "alternative medicine crap" and that they are inferior to MDs because the only reason to go in the DO route is if you don't get into an MD school. I got similar reactions from the other MDs that I shadowed which surprised me a lot since I thought physicians respected each other, and didn't look at each other in terms of their MD or DO initials. I am wondering what you guys think? Do you think most MDs think this way? And are you surprised, or am I making a big deal out of nothing?

 

[sylvanthus]

Why are you posting this across 5 different forums?

Ban him.

 

[Si Se Puede]

It's just that the med schools those particular MDs went to made a mistake in choosing egotistic kids like them...

 

[Winged Scapula]

Most intelligent physicians gauge their colleagues on how good they take care of their patients, not the degree they have.

The physicians you were shadowing are woefully uninformed and out of date; I'd bet they'd never even know which one of their colleagues was a DO vs MD.

Next time tell that Orthopod to contact all his good referring physicians who are DOs and tell them what he thinks.

 

[SyrianHero]

Why are you posting this across 5 different forums?

Ban him.

I posted it across three forums to see the different reactions between MDs and DOs and NonTrads

 

[Winged Scapula]

I posted it across three forums to see the different reactions between MDs and DOs and NonTrads

That is unnecessary and a TOS violation. Most SDN members visit and post in multiple forums.

Wanting to see "different reactions" sounds like baiting to me.

 

[SyrianHero]

That is unnecessary and a TOS violation. Most SDN members visit and post in multiple forums. Wanting to see "different reactions" sounds like baiting to me.

I just realized that this was against the rules, so I'm sorry for doing that. I was honestly curious, maybe overly curious lol

 

[Lollygag]

Were they old? Lol things have changed, like another poster said they are either very uninformed or just plain ignorant.

In the back of my head, I will always acknowledge that it is harder to get into an MD school and I think it's true that unfortunately, people go the DO route because they couldn't get into an MD school but if asked I would most likely respond that their pretty much the same thing. What those doctors said seemed egotistical and rude.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I just realized that this was against the rules, so I'm sorry for doing that. I was honestly curious, maybe overly curious lol

Now you know. 🙂

 

[peppy]

MDs and DOs are just people. Sometimes people have prejudiced and knee jerk opinions.
Fortunately, this guy's opinion has no bearing on my life or career. 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

I posted it across three forums to see the different reactions between MDs and DOs and NonTrads

There's a lot of overlap in users among the three forums, and yes, please do not cross post the same thread in multiple forums.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I'm in a semi-charitable mood (although I agree with WS that "trying to bring up a controversy" was *exactly* what you were trying to do) and say that I have never heard any MD make anything like any of the comments that you posted. And if I ever did hear an MD make a comment like that, it would reflect badly on that MD, not on DOs. There's no philosophical or practical difference in how MDs versus DOs practice medicine in the same specialty. (For the record, I am an MD who works with DOs, and my dad is a retired DO. I'm also a nontrad.)

 

[SyrianHero]

There's a lot of overlap in users among the three forums, and yes, please do not cross post the same thread in multiple forums.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I'm in a semi-charitable mood (although I agree with WS that "trying to bring up a controversy" was *exactly* what you were trying to do) and say that I have never heard any MD make anything like any of the comments that you posted. And if I ever did hear an MD make a comment like that, it would reflect badly on that MD, not on DOs. There's no philosophical or practical difference in how MDs versus DOs practice medicine in the same specialty. (For the record, I am an MD who works with DOs, and my dad is a retired DO. I'm also a nontrad.)

I appreciate the response. I guess MDs who have prejudices against DOs mostly don't work with DOs which makes sense since there aren't many DOs who work around where I was shadowing.

 

[lazymd]

I got similar reactions from the other MDs that I shadowed which surprised me a lot since I thought physicians respected each other...

Yeah right. All I ever hear while shadowing are physicians ragging on other specialties. It's kinda sad when I think about it.

...What those doctors said seemed egotistical and rude.

Egos in medicine? Whaaaat?!?!

Besides wall street and law school, what other field would you expect to attract egotistical people?

Of course this doesn't apply to all physicians, but there is a high enough percentage for people to have a discussion about.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I appreciate the response. I guess MDs who have prejudices against DOs mostly don't work with DOs which makes sense since there aren't many DOs who work around where I was shadowing.

That's probably a factor. If you don't work with DOs (or any group of people traditionally ostracized for their gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.), you won't get to know them and will continue to spout ignorant biases.

One of my business partners is DO. She is an excellent compassionate surgeon whom I would trust with any family member. Sadly, there have been patients who refused to see her because of her degree or her skin color.

I refuse to see those patients.

 

[chipper10]

i still dont get why there is a stigma of md vs do outside of the premed world. once you get into either school, the curriculums are equally hard and from there everything is virtually equivalent. so if a student does everything he/she needs to do to land a residency spot, no matter a do or md school, then there shouldn't be a care of what letters follow that persons name because whether they went to a do or md school, they both had it equally hard. this whole md vs do debate shouldnt even be there because this debate only involves what you did as a 18-20 something year old while in a UNDERGRADUATE institution. undergraduate institutions are suppose to be where you mess up the most as a student and find your direction in life, hence maybe why some of us started slow academically ( my story). i dont get why this affects how the medical world views the competence of do's. if a do student successfully completes a do cirriculum (which is equally as difficult as md cirriculum) and did well on rotations and board scores, then that is all that should matter. not that this student is a do, so he or she probably had lower UNDERGRAD stats, so maybe he or she isnt as competent. we all have our own stories as an UNDERGRAD, but that shouldnt matter anymore once you get into any med school, successfully graduate from there and land a residency.

 

[dsoz]

I shadowed a few physicians, both MD and DO. I also interact with the nurses and physicians at the hospital where I volunteer. Never once have I heard a health care worker (physician, PA, nurse, or admitting receptionist) say anything negative about DO physicians. Most don't care what letters come after the signature. In the words of the lead nurse "a doc is a doc."

It seems that everyone is considering the physician "holistically" and not worrying about what school they attended or whether they learned OMM while at school.

I was accepted to both MD and DO schools, and would have been just as willing to go to a DO school. I was, however, accepted to the MD program in my hometown. Now I get to stay in my own home and not have to sell or rent it out to move away to attend the DO schools where I was accepted. It was purely financial and convenience for my decision to attend an MD school.

When people ask where I was accepted, I am just as proud of the DO schools as the MD school. I understand that more than half of the people applying this cycle will fail to get an acceptance to ANY school, and I was blesses to have my choice of three (or more if I didn't cancel most of my interviews).

I dislike the pissing contest between the two degrees. One pisses more holistically and the other pisses more academically is a load of crap. Both are physicians. Quit pissing and start treating patients.

dsoz

 

[Romz]

It's just that the med schools those particular MDs went to made a mistake in choosing egotistic kids like them...

+1

Unfortunate attitudes coming from professionals who are supposed to be non-judgmental

 

[romanjetfighter]

People are snobby. So what?

People think they're better than others because maybe they got a high SAT score or their school is ranked higher than someone else's. People feel more intelligent because of their degree, whether it be DO, MD, or PhD or MS. We all hold on to these like a badge signifying something about ourselves.

But it's all social construct, like race. It's not meaningful.

 

[Romz]

People are snobby. So what?

People think they're better than others because maybe they got a high SAT score or their school is ranked higher than someone else's. People feel more intelligent because of their degree, whether it be DO, MD, or PhD or MS. We all hold on to these like a badge signifying something about ourselves.

But it's all social construct, like race. It's not meaningful.

That is true, but I don't think it's a desirable quality to have. Just because it's not a meaningful distinction doesn't mean that it's less of an issue to be pretentious about it. From my experiences interacting with people from all sorts of different backgrounds, the one common factor that annoys most is arrogance and all related qualities. Sure, some people are smarter, stronger, quicker, cuter and so on; they'd be in for a rough ride though if they continuously and explicitly put others down to exemplify their own accomplishments. Let these attributes speak for themselves. The notion that you are inherently better than someone based on a certain quality or distinction is a trait which is almost as ugly as jealousy itself, IMO.

 

[TriagePreMed]

It's the same thing all throughout life: "oh, you're a philosophy major? Have fun working at McDonalds" "you went to undergrad at WaSU and not U dub? Are you dumb?" "Psychiatrists? Pill popping puppets for big pharma." Someone is always out to try to feel superior. Fact is that DO still remains a better choice than Caribbean. If you can't get into an MD school, go to a DO school or don't be a doctor, but for the love of god, don't allow people's opinion to ruin your life.

 

[Midifelder10]

I talked to a very good dr. in town (MD) and he was very proud of DO's working with him. For him it was a non issue but I can see where the op is coming from. Again this is a small sample which does not convey any information.

 

[Roxas]

I shadowed multiple MDs, and I asked each of them what they thought about DOs. Every single one of them had nothing but positive things to say about DOs, which was very comforting to hear. Especially since one of them went to a very competitive/prestigious MD school, it was nice to hear that (from my experience at least) that physicians respect other physicians, regardless of their degree.

 

[PreMedJock]

Forgive a young freshman for being uninformed, but what exactly is the difference?

 

[Bangersandmash]

The MDs (and DO) I shadowed definitely did not have the same attitude towards DOs. In fact, two of the MDs I have shadowed have pointed out the great DOs they work with. There essentially was no difference between them in the hospitals they worked out and they introduced them as fellow associates and doctors - not as DOs. I can't imagine a good, conducive working environment in a place where the MDs look down upon the DOs.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Forgive a young freshman for being uninformed, but what exactly is the difference?

Honestly, there is no difference except historical roots, but Osteopathic programs pride themselves in offering a "holistic" approach, which many contend isn't exclusive to DO programs. Aside from this, DOs learn OMM, which is a form of manual therapy similar to what physical therapists or other similar practitioners do, but it is currently used by a minority of DO graduates. At the end of the day, a DO = MD, but MD is considered to be more prestigious due to history and competitiveness in acceptances.

 

[PreMedJock]

Honestly, there is no difference except historical roots, but Osteopathic programs pride themselves in offering a "holistic" approach, which many contend isn't exclusive to DO programs. Aside from this, DOs learn OMM, which is a form of manual therapy similar to what physical therapists or other similar practitioners do, but it is currently used by a minority of DO graduates. At the end of the day, a DO = MD, but MD is considered to be more prestigious due to history and competitiveness in acceptances.

Ah that makes sense. Thanks, friend.

 

[Law2Doc]

Honestly, there is no difference except historical roots, but Osteopathic programs pride themselves in offering a "holistic" approach, which many contend isn't exclusive to DO programs. Aside from this, DOs learn OMM, which is a form of manual therapy similar to what physical therapists or other similar practitioners do, but it is currently used by a minority of DO graduates. At the end of the day, a DO = MD, but MD is considered to be more prestigious due to history and competitiveness in acceptances.

To be fair, DO was an offshoot if MD due to philosophical differences and for many years they had to practice exclusively in their own hospitals and couldn't prescribe meds. So there was a longstanding bias that they weren't the equivalent of MDs, (because for a ling stretch they weren't) and a lot if the older crowd remember these days. It's only recently that they are perceived as equal, have essentially renounced their philosophical differences, often go into allopathic residencies, and they still haven't achieved equality in most of the competitive specialties. And yes, the average admission stats are generally lower. So there is historical basis in the biases other than simply being prejudiced. That being said, people don't really care if their colleague or coresident has an MD or DO in practice. If the person is competent, they are competent. In something like ortho, here DOs are few, the opportunity to evaluate DOs doesn't exist so I'm not really surprised that historical biases still persist.

 

[Doctor Strange]

I've experienced biases the other way around, too. Admissions speakers from some very well known DO schools that I've invited to talk at my meetings have almost always given some kind of impression that MD schools are somehow less caring and holistic than DO schools. Similar attitudes stem from students I've talked to also, where they think that MDs are just snobby rich kids that don't really care about patients.

It's a two way street here, and I think both sides have some misconceptions and attitudes that need to be addressed.

Sent from my LT28at using SDN Mobile

 

[acslater99]

IMO, I think they are both the same, of course there will be people who say that DO is stupid or something in that category. I really don't mind applying to a DO school when I get to that point.

 

[Nymphicus]

Some anecdotes:

- 2/3 DO's that I shadowed were supportive of (referred/utilized) alternative medicine

- No MD's sad bad things about DO colleagues. However, one said that when she was applying DO was generally seen as an option for those who couldn't get into MD schools.

- Another MD said that he didn't really know what DO's where but there was one in town who "practiced pretty much just like an MD."

- A biomed PhD gave me a talking to when I mentioned applying to DO schools because she said that a lot of their treatment/philosophy didn't have evidence behind it.

 

[WTEngel]

I have seen situations where two physicians have a personal/professional disagreement or simply have a bad experience between them, and they will target anything they can sometimes. This is not 100% of the time, in fact, most physicians are more professional than this, but we are all human.

At any rate, if a physician can blame their dislike of a colleague on the fact they went to DO school, they might do so. If a physician wants to blame it on the fact they went to a "low tier" MD school, they might...or gasp, a DO might accuse an MD of being high and mighty because they went to some fancy pants "allopathic" school. All of these examples are pure crap, but they still happen from time to time.

I guess the point I am making is that despite being extremely well educated, professionals at all levels of practice sometimes find themselves acting like children. It is not the norm, but it does happen.

You would be best advised to rise above this, understand that haters will hate, and we should always try to be the best ambassador of our profession, regardless of whether or not we are a MD, DO, NP, PA, paramedic, nurse, janitor, secretary, pre-med, etc.....you get the point...

 

[pattr]

It's only recently that they are perceived as equal, have essentially renounced their philosophical differences, often go into allopathic residencies, and they still haven't achieved equality in most of the competitive specialties. And yes, the average admission stats are generally lower.

That being said, people don't really care if their colleague or coresident has an MD or DO in practice. If the person is competent, they are competent. In something like ortho, here DOs are few, the opportunity to evaluate DOs doesn't exist so I'm not really surprised that historical biases still persist.

What troubles me is that if a physician in practice is truly judged based on clinical competency alone, as you claim, then why does is bias against DOs - and for that matter, FMG/IMG's - still rampant among PDs in more competitive residency programs? It's no question that medical students still use the number of DO/FMG/IMG in a residency program as a metric for its strength/competitiveness (and hence in some cases, desirability), and I'm sure PDs are at least aware of this if they don't share the same mentality themselves. So until this changes, if it ever will, there's always going to be a lingering inequality of DO representation in the competitive specialties as you mentioned.

 

[Wilf]

People are snobby. So what?


But it's all social construct, like race. It's not meaningful.

I know you were probably just baiting with this statement, but I'll bite. Can you tell me what you mean by this statement?

 

[Law2Doc]

...So until this changes, if it ever will, there's always going to be a lingering inequality of DO representation in the competitive specialties as you mentioned.

I suspect this will erode, slowly, once the DO folks surrender and move to USMLE and a common match, as there have been some recent rumblings. Until then, I agree with you, if you aren't allo, you will have a tough time breaking into certain competitive allo residencies. Call it bias, call it adherence to the status quo. You have to remember, this isn't two equally large groups. The allo world is about 5 times as numerous as Osteo, and allo PDs don't really have much incentive to look past the model that worked well last year or the year before. There are plenty of allo grads out there with curricula they are familiar with.

 

[Law2Doc]

I've experienced biases the other way around, too. Admissions speakers from some very well known DO schools that I've invited to talk at my meetings have almost always given some kind of impression that MD schools are somehow less caring and holistic than DO schools. Similar attitudes stem from students I've talked to also, where they think that MDs are just snobby rich kids that don't really care about patients.

It's a two way street here, and I think both sides have some misconceptions and attitudes that need to be addressed.

Sent from my LT28at using SDN Mobile

Two way street isn't meaningful when you are comparing a tiny minority to a large majority. DOs can think they are better caregivers, but it means nothing when they don't represent 20% of the healthcare providers out there. Most would still rather be on the side of the majority.

 

[touchpause13]

I know you were probably just baiting with this statement, but I'll bite. Can you tell me what you mean by this statement?

It's not baiting, it's a common fact in the social sciences world.

Many things that the majority of american society takes as biological facts such as race or gender are not so. FOr the example of race try and think about "white" ness, Is there any real biological basis for what makes one person white? no of course not. There is not specific degree of pigmentation that makes you white. When my grandmother came over from Italy she was not considered white, but my mother is considered white, even though she was born of two Italian immigrants. Race is something determined by society and changes as society changes.

 

[Law2Doc]

It's not baiting, it's a common fact in the social sciences world.

Many things that the majority of american society takes as biological facts such as race or gender are not so. FOr the example of race try and think about "white" ness, Is there any real biological basis for what makes one person white? no of course not. There is not specific degree of pigmentation that makes you white. When my grandmother came over from Italy she was not considered white, but my mother is considered white, even though she was born of two Italian immigrants. Race is something determined by society and changes as society changes.

So you are essentially calling DOs the blacks of medicine? Sounds like you are trying to work race into a discussion that isn't about race. In other words baiting.

 

[heartshaped box]

The doc you talked to is pretty much right about this: The only reason an applicant would go to DO school is because he/she couldn't get into an MD school and was smart enough not to risk the Caribbean.

But I'll bet DO's are far more down to earth, cool, chill, and well-rounded than MD's (on average). (I say this as an M0 who has been accepted to an MD school, and who hates 99% of all "pre-meds". Including myself.)

 

[KGflyboy]

The doc you talked to is pretty much right about this: The only reason an applicant would go to DO school is because he/she couldn't get into an MD school and was smart enough not to risk the Caribbean.

But I'll bet DO's are far more down to earth, cool, chill, and well-rounded than MD's (on average). (I say this as an M0 who has been accepted to an MD school, and who hates 99% of all "pre-meds". Including myself.)

I turned down two MD schools for a DO school. The determining factor for me was geographic. At the time I applied I was married, owned a house, and had a kid. I chose to attend the school that didn't require me to sell my house and uproot my family. Oh... And the DO school was highly recommended to me by family and friends who attended the school. I also liked their curriculum a lot. They also had the nicest facilities. The reasons why I chose the DO school are plentiful.

 

[MedPR]

The doc you talked to is pretty much right about this: The only reason an applicant would go to DO school is because he/she couldn't get into an MD school and was smart enough not to risk the Caribbean.

But I'll bet DO's are far more down to earth, cool, chill, and well-rounded than MD's (on average). (I say this as an M0 who has been accepted to an MD school, and who hates 99% of all "pre-meds". Including myself.)

See below.

That is pure nonsense. I turned down two MD schools for a DO school. The determining factor for me was geographic. At the time I applied I was married, owned a house, and had a kid. I chose to attend the school that didn't require me to sell me house and uproot my family. Oh... And the DO school was highly recommended to me by family and friends who attended the school. I also liked their curriculum a lot. They also had the nicest facilities. The reasons why I chose the DO school are plentiful. Your post is is as inaccurate as it is insulting.

I think what he meant was few people would choose the DO degree over the MD degree. There is no advantage to the DO degree.

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[KGflyboy]

See below.







I think what he meant was few people would choose the DO degree over the MD degree. There is no advantage to the DO degree.

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That sounds less insulting than way it was worded the first time. I agree that few people chose a DO degree over an MD degree, but I think there are plenty of people in recent years who chose a DO school because they honestly preferred that particular school. I don't think it's accurate or fair to generalize DO students by saying they only went to a DO school because they couldn't get in at an allopathic school.

 

[MedPR]

That sounds less insulting than way it was worded the first time. I agree that few people chose a DO degree over an MD degree, but I think there are plenty of people in recent years who chose a DO school because they honestly preferred that particular school. I don't think it's accurate or fair to generalize DO students by saying they only went to a DO school because they couldn't get in at an allopathic school.

Yea I agree. I do think the vast majority of people who apply to both are on the lower spectrum stats wise, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. DO schools have lower stats and any intelligent person will recognize the need to take advantage of every opportunity even if that means having the less well known letters after their name.

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[heartshaped box]

Okay, I should have said "other things being equal" or some other all-encompassing phrase. The point is (and you yourself ought to realize this) is that you are an exception. Perhaps even a rare exception.

 

[Wilf]

Another thing to keep in mind is that while many here will say that patients do not have a bias against DOs that is wishful thinking. I asked two of my older friends who are not in the medical field in any way if they would go to a DO and both of them said only if an MD was not available. I was also told by one of my interviewers to medical school not to go DO if it was my choice because they are viewed as inferior and, as he said, they have a chip on their shoulder. His words, not mine.

Oh, and heartshapedbox's posting, while not worded quite accurately, was not offensive and was pretty much correct.

 

[MedPR]

Another thing to keep in mind is that while many here will say that patients do not have a bias against DOs that is wishful thinking. I asked two of my older friends who are not in the medical field in any way if they would go to a DO and both of them said only if an MD was not available. I was also told by one of my interviewers to medical school not to go DO if it was my choice because they are viewed as inferior and, as he said, they have a chip on their shoulder. His words, not mine.

Bias or not, DOs aren't seeing a shortage of patients.

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[KGflyboy]

Another thing to keep in mind is that while many here will say that patients do not have a bias against DOs that is wishful thinking. I asked two of my older friends who are not in the medical field in any way if they would go to a DO and both of them said only if an MD was not available. I was also told by one of my interviewers to medical school not to go DO if it was my choice because they are viewed as inferior and, as he said, they have a chip on their shoulder. His words, not mine.

Oh, and heartshapedbox's posting, while not worded quite accurately, was not offensive and was pretty much correct.

I suppose it depends partly on where you live. Around here, DOs are common, at least in primary care. I don't think there is as much bias among patients here because I rarely see it or hear about it. I realize there are regions where few DOs practice, so I imagine the bias is more prevalent there.

We are going to have to agree to disagree about the post being insulting. As a DO student, it came off as an insult to me. I can see why it didn't seem insulting to a non-DO.

 

[KGflyboy]

Okay, I should have said "other things being equal" or some other all-encompassing phrase. The point is (and you yourself ought to realize this) is that you are an exception. Perhaps even a rare exception.

I agree that many DO students would have gone to an allopathic school if they could have. I have no way of knowing how common or rare the exceptions to that rule are, but I understand the point you are getting at.

 

[FloridaMedicine]

That's probably a factor. If you don't work with DOs (or any group of people traditionally ostracized for their gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.), you won't get to know them and will continue to spout ignorant biases.

One of my business partners is DO. She is an excellent compassionate surgeon whom I would trust with any family member. Sadly, there have been patients who refused to see her because of her degree or her skin color.

I refuse to see those patients.

Really? That's terrible. How often does that happen if you don't mind me asking? Also how does she react to situations like that?

 

[MedPR]

Really? That's terrible. How often does that happen if you don't mind me asking? Also how does she react to situations like that?

Probably not often or people wouldn't think twice about it.

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[Winged Scapula]

Really? That's terrible. How often does that happen if you don't mind me asking? Also how does she react to situations like that?

Not often; just a few times over the last few years (that I have been aware of).

I haven't told her about what patients have said to me as it would only hurt her, and serve no purpose.