Taking Orgo 2 for the 5th time - am I delusional?

[Thestrugglingpremed]

I am going to be taking Organic Chemistry 2 for the 5th time this summer. (Lord.) I took Organic Chemistry 1 THREE times before I finally passed with a C. I HATE chemistry to say the least. I don't get it at all but to be fair, if I spent more time with the material than I currently do, I might manage to absorb something. It's gotten to the point where I considered having short-term memory loss.

That said, I think a big factor with this is my confidence level. After having struggled so much with this course in the past, I automatically go into it thinking I can't learn it and I feel like it's mentally blocking me from learning. In the past, I was stubborn and refused to be weeded out by this course. But now, I'm starting to feel exhausted. Seeing my friends about to graduate medical school and I haven't even started. (I know comparing yourself is a dangerous game). At this point, I don't even know if it's worth taking and just saying goodbye to medical school.

I love medicine, the diseases, the idea of treating people and them getting better. I've been working for **** pay at a doctor's office learning all I can and I'm pretty good at it BECAUSE I love it. But I really feel like I've been weeded out.

What do you all think? Am I delusional? Do I still have a shot if I somehow manage to pass this class this time around and go into a post-BACC and somehow pass those too? And also get a decent MCAT score. (I haven't taken it because of Orgo and the trauma it's given me >-<)

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[Bonne Nuit]

I am going to be taking Organic Chemistry 2 for the 5th time this summer. (Lord.) I took Organic Chemistry 1 THREE times before I finally passed with a C. I HATE chemistry to say the least. I don't get it at all but to be fair, if I spent more time with the material than I currently do, I might manage to absorb something. It's gotten to the point where I considered having short-term memory loss.

That said, I think a big factor with this is my confidence level. After having struggled so much with this course in the past, I automatically go into it thinking I can't learn it and I feel like it's mentally blocking me from learning. In the past, I was stubborn and refused to be weeded out by this course. But now, I'm starting to feel exhausted. Seeing my friends about to graduate medical school and I haven't even started. (I know comparing yourself is a dangerous game). At this point, I don't even know if it's worth taking and just saying goodbye to medical school.

I love medicine, the diseases, the idea of treating people and them getting better. I've been working for **** pay at a doctor's office learning all I can and I'm pretty good at it BECAUSE I love it. But I really feel like I've been weeded out.

What do you all think? Am I delusional? Do I still have a shot if I somehow manage to pass this class this time around and go into a post-BACC and somehow pass those too? And also get a decent MCAT score. (I haven't taken it because of Orgo and the trauma it's given me >-<)

Yours is a somewhat unusual situation and I'll leave it to the professional adcoms to address your chances, but I do want to say I'm sorry you're going through what is clearly a demoralizing process.

How are your grades in your other BCPM classes? What is your overall uGPA and sGPA at this point? Have you ever struggled like this in other high school or college classes?

Can you be more specific about what steps you've taken to improve your mastery of organic chemistry - e.g., attending office hours, tutoring, practice questions, third-party resources?

If you haven't already, I would strongly suggest contacting the learning specialists or tutoring center at your school ASAP. I also might consider contacting a medical or mental health professional to investigate whether you have an undiagnosed learning disability or ADHD. You might just be struggling with this particular subject, but if you think there could be something else going on, now's the time to address it.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Just to be clear, you took OChem 1 three times, did not pass 1st two times and 3rd time passed with a C. Then you took OChem 2 four times, did not pass all 4 times and now will be taking it again for the 5th time this summer?

I suspect with all those 6(?) D's or F's, your sGPA let alone you cGPA will not be competitive for applying. The harsh reality is that you will be donating your app money to the schools. Unless there is a significant amount of time that passes, and you get into a PB and do well to show that you have reinvented yourself, you don't have shot at MDs or DOs as it stands. Anything is possible, but not likely probable currently.

 

[chilly_md]

If you say your friends are already graduating medical school, were they the same year as you in undergrad? If so, it might be wise to pursue a different path if finances are becoming an issue. You’ll have to do a lot of transcript repair through post-bacc and/or SMP, and I don’t think it would be the best idea to put money and time towards that if you are struggling in other science classes besides ochem.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I'd check with some of the schools that you are interested in. I think you do need to consider a different health professional direction, but I really feel bad because taking organic 2 so many times is going to hurt your GPA and the perception by many admissions committees that you cannot handle rigorous coursework.

I really feel bad to note for you that since the 2015 change in the MCAT, many schools have gone away from requiring coursework, and some who still have required coursework say they would accept biochemistry instead of organic 2 (since the MCAT topic breakdown emphasizes biochemistry-related applications of concepts from organic 2... or just simply put biochemistry).

 

[chilly_md]

I found OP’s old post for reference:

Need Advice - Possible Major Switch?

Hi everyone. I have a dilemma and I'd like to get anyone's sincere advice. I'm currently a senior at my four-year university, with my major being Biomedical Sciences and a 3.28 GPA. I'm currently 73% done with the degree or have approximately credits 107 credits out of 120 credit requirement...

forums.studentdoctor.net

OP, I think it would be best to choose a different health profession if you’ve been in school for an extra 4-5 years.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

I think it’s time to move on OP.

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

The sad truth is that ochem is a weed out course and unfortunately you were weeded out. I applaud your perseverance and determination to continue, but at the same time I think you need to start facing reality. Even if you were to pass ochem this time with, lets say an A, it will raise a big red flag to adcoms that it took you 5 times to pass the class. This isn't even considering what your GPA looks like which I can't imagine it's too great consdering all the times you've taken ochem 1 and 2. I think you should strongly consider alternative career options.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Really can't comment with certainty without knowing GPA and MCAT. As of your posting, you would be a NO at for me, and probably most at my school. Get to your schools learning center and identify any correctable learning issues which might be holding you back. Reinvention is a thing and you can consider a move in that direction. See @Goro's guide to reinvention on SDN. Don't attempt reinvention until you have a plan. Talk to a pre med advisor at your school. A solid reinvention plan with success and a solid mcat might make a difference. This will be costly financially and should be taken into consideration before starting. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[Goro]

I think it’s time to move on OP.

I agree, OP. No matter how much you love medicine, you can be in the medical field without having to be a doctor.

 

[pazzer2]

Go see a neuropsychologist. Get yourself tested for sensory and other visuo-spatial processing issues.

 

[Brooklyn-doc97]

I am going to be taking Organic Chemistry 2 for the 5th time this summer. (Lord.) I took Organic Chemistry 1 THREE times before I finally passed with a C. I HATE chemistry to say the least. I don't get it at all but to be fair, if I spent more time with the material than I currently do, I might manage to absorb something. It's gotten to the point where I considered having short-term memory loss.

That said, I think a big factor with this is my confidence level. After having struggled so much with this course in the past, I automatically go into it thinking I can't learn it and I feel like it's mentally blocking me from learning. In the past, I was stubborn and refused to be weeded out by this course. But now, I'm starting to feel exhausted. Seeing my friends about to graduate medical school and I haven't even started. (I know comparing yourself is a dangerous game). At this point, I don't even know if it's worth taking and just saying goodbye to medical school.

I love medicine, the diseases, the idea of treating people and them getting better. I've been working for **** pay at a doctor's office learning all I can and I'm pretty good at it BECAUSE I love it. But I really feel like I've been weeded out.

What do you all think? Am I delusional? Do I still have a shot if I somehow manage to pass this class this time around and go into a post-BACC and somehow pass those too? And also get a decent MCAT score. (I haven't taken it because of Orgo and the trauma it's given me >-<)

I do not want to ruin your dreams or anything like that, but I am finding it kind of difficult to imagine that med schools will look upon you in a way of thinking that they would want to accept you. I mean generally speaking I have always been told that it's bad to repeat a course in the eyes of med schools, especially if you don't get an A the second round. But the fact that you have retaken Organic Chemistry 1, 3 times with the highest being a C. Is pretty bad in it of itself. But failing Organic chemistry 2, 5 times as well pretty much butchered your ability to display your academic skills to be honest.

I mean I am no expert admittedly, but I would imagine that with a post-bac and like a 515 or higher mcat score. Then you can try to solely apply to all D.O. schools and hope to get in that way.

 

[candbgirl]

I do not want to ruin your dreams or anything like that, but I am finding it kind of difficult to imagine that med schools will look upon you in a way of thinking that they would want to accept you. I mean generally speaking I have always been told that it's bad to repeat a course in the eyes of med schools, especially if you don't get an A the second round. But the fact that you have retaken Organic Chemistry 1, 3 times with the highest being a C. Is pretty bad in it of itself. But failing Organic chemistry 2, 5 times as well pretty much butchered your ability to display your academic skills to be honest.

I mean I am no expert admittedly, but I would imagine that with a post-bac and like a 515 or higher mcat score. Then you can try to solely apply to all D.O. schools and hope to get in that way.

Why would a DO school overlook attempting Orgo1 3 times and Orgo2 5 times.
OP, don’t take it again. It’s not helping you. What makes you think anything will change? At this point it might be a psychological block to the subject matter. You probably need to figure out why you have such a horrible time with these courses. Schools require these courses so you are going to have to figure things out.

 

[LeeSin]

I do not want to ruin your dreams or anything like that, but I am finding it kind of difficult to imagine that med schools will look upon you in a way of thinking that they would want to accept you. I mean generally speaking I have always been told that it's bad to repeat a course in the eyes of med schools, especially if you don't get an A the second round. But the fact that you have retaken Organic Chemistry 1, 3 times with the highest being a C. Is pretty bad in it of itself. But failing Organic chemistry 2, 5 times as well pretty much butchered your ability to display your academic skills to be honest.

I mean I am no expert admittedly, but I would imagine that with a post-bac and like a 515 or higher mcat score. Then you can try to solely apply to all D.O. schools and hope to get in that way.

I think the odds of someone who took orgo 1 and 2 three or more times each to pass getting a 515 or higher on the mcat is very close to 0. Hell I mean I imagine lots of people with As in orgos get below a 515. I'm just pointing this out for OP to be realistic and not just say "Oh yeah let me just get a 515+ on the mcat ez pz"

 

[doomer_md]

I think the odds of someone who took orgo 1 and 2 three or more times each to pass getting a 515 or higher on the mcat is very close to 0. Hell I mean I imagine lots of people with As in orgos get below a 515. I'm just pointing this out for OP to be realistic and not just say "Oh yeah let me just get a 515+ on the mcat ez pz"

Ochem seems to be one of the less tested subjects in CP/BB from what I recall so it is possible assuming OP knows everything else extremely well. The scope of ochem on the MCAT is much narrower than what is taught in class and MCAT ochem is tested differently than how my undergrad tested it. Personally if money isn't an issue, and ochem is the only subject I am bad at, I'd give the MCAT a shot. If I already spent 2+ years trying to crack ochem so what's one test to see if I truly have any chance or not?

 

[LeeSin]

Ochem seems to be one of the less tested subjects in CP/BB from what I recall so it is possible assuming OP knows everything else extremely well. The scope of ochem on the MCAT is much narrower than what is taught in class and MCAT ochem is tested differently than how my undergrad tested it. Personally if money isn't an issue, and ochem is the only subject I am bad at, I'd give the MCAT a shot. If I already spent 2+ years trying to crack ochem so what's one test to see if I truly have any chance or not?

Fair point, and I would agree with your last statement. I wasn't so much focusing on ochem but using it to make a statement about study habits. Op has posts where they talk about getting Cs in physics and they say in this post that they hate chem in general, so it's not just ochem that they struggle with.

 

[Brooklyn-doc97]

Why would a DO school overlook attempting Orgo1 3 times and Orgo2 5 times.
OP, don’t take it again. It’s not helping you. What makes you think anything will change? At this point it might be a psychological block to the subject matter. You probably need to figure out why you have such a horrible time with these courses. Schools require these courses so you are going to have to figure things out.

I was trying to be hopeful for OP, if they were still determined to get into med school. I just felt that OP can get psychological help first and then make a comeback a year later or something like that and try to show that they "reinvented" themselves and can improve and get into a medical school through a post-bac program. I just didn't want OP's dreams to be crushed is all.

Edit: I didn't mean to instill false hope or upset anyone, based off of the emoji's I have been receiving. I just wanted what was best for the OP.

 

[TragicalDrFaust]

I think you need a big change. What have you done to improve your scores with each subsequent re-take?

Regardless of the answer, the only way I can see this working is this:

1. Finish up any degree with excellent grades. Set yourself up to get a decent paying job - by doing research, internships, etc. Consider getting a medical certification such as medical technologist or x ray tech.
2. Figure out why you haven't done well in orgo and physics. Test anxiety? Undiagnosed learning disability? Inability to prioritize with other things going on in your life? I think you need to step away to get some perspective.
3. Return to school as a career changer after a handful of years working and do a pre-med post-bac. You will need to excel in these classes.
4. Then explain on apps how much you've changed in the past 5-10 years, explain the x factor that was preventing you from succeeding and why it will never be a problem again.

 

[allseasons]

I think you need a big change. What have you done to improve your scores with each subsequent re-take?

Regardless of the answer, the only way I can see this working is this:

1. Finish up any degree with excellent grades. Set yourself up to get a decent paying job - by doing research, internships, etc. Consider getting a medical certification such as medical technologist or x ray tech.
2. Figure out why you haven't done well in orgo and physics. Test anxiety? Undiagnosed learning disability? Inability to prioritize with other things going on in your life? I think you need to step away to get some perspective.
3. Return to school as a career changer after a handful of years working and do a pre-med post-bac. You will need to excel in these classes.
4. Then explain on apps how much you've changed in the past 5-10 years, explain the x factor that was preventing you from succeeding and why it will never be a problem again.

yea, OP, this is honestly the only way, and it's gonna be both long and time-consuming. If you're 22-ish now, you're probably looking at entering medical school around 28 with a decent amount of expenditures for the post bacc.

you might want to consider a related but easier to enter field like podiatry or just switch career goals entirely.

 

[candbgirl]

I can’t imagine how soul sucking it is to even register for Orgo EIGHT times. I’m not sure I could do it.

 

[petomed]

Maybe you really are terrible at following the electrons and those self fulfilling prophecy failure hooks are in too deep to dig out.

What's your cGPA and number of credit hours? How are your timed MCAT's going? Anything's possible with an amazing story, fairly high GPA, and 90th percentile MCAT. But the odds of these being true based on what you've divulged to us seem low.

You will need all of these items, with a bit of wobble on the absolute value of each number:
1) a seriously eyebrow raising, inspiring story that rationalizes the organic chemistry issues
2) cGPA should be > 3.00 once the hypothetical post-bac is factored into the equation
3) > 3.80 during your postbac
4) stellar MCAT ( > 90th percentile)

All those facets together with a passing grade in the orgo sequence, and I think it's possible you'll get into a medical school. You'll of course need the other regions of your application to be strong too. But without 1-4, I think you may be dead in the water.

Remember, almost anything is possible. But some things just aren't. Be realistic with yourself here. If you think orgo is a fluke and you're GPA / MCAT is able to show that, you've got a shot. But if you're sitting at a 2.5 cGPA right now and a postbac won't bring you beyond 2.7 or 2.8...it might be time to call it. Likewise if you don't think you'll be able to score higher than 90% of people that sit for the MCAT.

 

[Robin-jay]

Am I delusional?

I don't even think you can get into nursing schools with that record. You probably have less than a 2.5 science GPA. I used to teach university chemistry, including organic chemistry. I think a different career path would suit you. Being a physician is much harder than undergraduate organic chemistry...

 

[Thestrugglingpremed]

Hey everyone - thanks for replying. Your responses have both lifted me and thrown me into the pits of hell. 🙃 To answer a few questions - I'm a 26 yo who got a 512 on the MCAT. I did a post-bacc, got a 3.6 GPA. Aced pharmacology, got a C in biochem, retook it and got an A. Got over 3000+ hours of shadowing and volunteering including starting a nonprofit clinic that unfortunately closed due to COVID.
Idk if that changes anything - but mentally I'm exhausted. It's hurt my self-esteem more than anything should and I am heavily considering just going down the public health route to preserve my sanity.

I can’t imagine how soul sucking it is to even register for Orgo EIGHT times. I’m not sure I could do it.

It's delusion masquerading as persistence.

Why would a DO school overlook attempting Orgo1 3 times and Orgo2 5 times.
OP, don’t take it again. It’s not helping you. What makes you think anything will change? At this point it might be a psychological block to the subject matter. You probably need to figure out why you have such a horrible time with these courses. Schools require these courses so you are going to have to figure things out.

Most of them my retakes are recorded as withdrawals because I jump ship immediately once I know it's not going to go well solely. Orgo 1 is listed as a W and a D, later replaced to C+, and Orgo 2 is listed as 3 Ws, 1 IF, and 1 F. Not that this makes it any better... but I figured I'd state it. I honestly think I have a mental block with orgo, I go into it thinking I can't so I stopped trying at one point.

Given that I aced pharmacology and biochem and feel renewed academically (although very mentally exhausted atp), should I try one last time? 🤡

 

[TolJoob]

Hey everyone - thanks for replying. Your responses have both lifted me and thrown me into the pits of hell. 🙃 To answer a few questions - I'm a 26 yo who got a 512 on the MCAT. I did a post-bacc, got a 3.6 GPA. Aced pharmacology, got a C in biochem, retook it and got an A. Got over 3000+ hours of shadowing and volunteering including starting a nonprofit clinic that unfortunately closed due to COVID.
Idk if that changes anything - but mentally I'm exhausted. It's hurt my self-esteem more than anything should and I am heavily considering just going down the public health route to preserve my sanity.

It's delusion masquerading as persistence.

Most of them my retakes are recorded as withdrawals because I jump ship immediately once I know it's not going to go well solely. Orgo 1 is listed as a W and a D, later replaced to C+, and Orgo 2 is listed as 3 Ws, 1 IF, and 1 F. Not that this makes it any better... but I figured I'd state it. I honestly think I have a mental block with orgo, I go into it thinking I can't so I stopped trying at one point.

Given that I aced pharmacology and biochem and feel renewed academically (although very mentally exhausted atp), should I try one last time? 🤡

With post-bacc, what is your cGPA and sGPA total?

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

Hey everyone - thanks for replying. Your responses have both lifted me and thrown me into the pits of hell. 🙃 To answer a few questions - I'm a 26 yo who got a 512 on the MCAT. I did a post-bacc, got a 3.6 GPA. Aced pharmacology, got a C in biochem, retook it and got an A. Got over 3000+ hours of shadowing and volunteering including starting a nonprofit clinic that unfortunately closed due to COVID.
Idk if that changes anything - but mentally I'm exhausted. It's hurt my self-esteem more than anything should and I am heavily considering just going down the public health route to preserve my sanity.

It's delusion masquerading as persistence.

Most of them my retakes are recorded as withdrawals because I jump ship immediately once I know it's not going to go well solely. Orgo 1 is listed as a W and a D, later replaced to C+, and Orgo 2 is listed as 3 Ws, 1 IF, and 1 F. Not that this makes it any better... but I figured I'd state it. I honestly think I have a mental block with orgo, I go into it thinking I can't so I stopped trying at one point.

Given that I aced pharmacology and biochem and feel renewed academically (although very mentally exhausted atp), should I try one last time? 🤡

The problem that strikes me the most is that you are already mentally exhausted. I hate to say this, but medical school is 100x more exhausting than undergrad. I am not a resident yet, but I can only imagine how much more exhausting that is than medical school. I think you have shown persistence and a desire to pursue your dreams which is admirable. You have shown that you are intelligent and can most likely handle the rigor of medical school based on your 512 MCAT. And you have also checked the majority of the boxes required for admission (volunteering/shadowing). I am not an adcom so I can't speak on their behalf and how they would view your situation, but although it is admirable that you won't give up it is still concerning you are having this much difficulty with a class. This could be translated over to say anatomy or any system. What if you have trouble with nephrology and can't get through that system? You can't just retake it 5 times, you would get kicked out. These schools don't want to waste resources on a student that can't make it to the end and more than anything they don't want to see you take on hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt with nothing to show for it. You're in a tough situation and I don't know what the right answer, but more than anything I don't know how you have the will power to take organic chemistry that many times.

 

[LunaOri]

If it’s not required by the schools to which you want to apply, don’t bother! If it is required, and it’s the only hurdle standing between you and medical school, get ready to give it your all!
(I have said this on this forum about a zillion times: I got a D in orgo and graduated at the top of my med school class).

 

[Thestrugglingpremed]

With post-bacc, what is your cGPA and sGPA total?

How would I calculate this accurately? I've done a few different calculators but none of them give me the same answer. And I assume AMCAS still would factor in the failed attempts as well.

 

[DOCOC15]

How would I calculate this accurately? I've done a few different calculators but none of them give me the same answer. And I assume AMCAS still would factor in the failed attempts as well.

I like excel- if you want to DM me your transcripts with personal info redacted I'd be happy to calculate your GPAs for you.