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confused undergrad

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Hello,

I am interested in learning about the opportunities to teach and do research as an MD. What do you have to do? Post-doc after med school? Get involved with research during med school? How? What would the teaching opportunities look like? I've heard that teaching at the undergrad level is completely off the table. Is this true? Do MDs teach graduate students?

Also, would the salary of an MD professor differ from that of a PhD professor?

Thank you!
 
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M&L

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I am actually curious about that too. I am a rising M2, and i was looking into possibilities of teaching part time. I want to see what more experienced faculty ppl say (@Goro @gyngyn ), I know that in my medical school there are a lot of MD professors, seems like some of them do not have PhD either. One pathologist said that if i want to teach after pathology residency, i need to go to a residency program that is more focused on academic medicine, which can be more competitive. So he told me that if i want to keep that option open, i need to aim for 240+ on Step 1 (but it will be pass/fail for you though), and try to publish something or do a presentation at a conference during m4 year. Not sure what teaching in other specialties looks like though, and dont know about teaching in undergrad/grad school. I know that MDs teach other medicine related graduate students in our medical school (pathology assistants, for example), but i do not know about outside of medical school.
 
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Hello,

I am interested in learning about the opportunities to teach and do research as an MD. What do you have to do? Post-doc after med school? Get involved with research during med school? How? What would the teaching opportunities look like? I've heard that teaching at the undergrad level is completely off the table. Is this true? Do MDs teach graduate students?

Also, would the salary of an MD professor differ from that of a PhD professor?

Thank you!
Well, it's going to be different in the DO world compared to MD. My schools has taken DOs /MDs fresh out of their residency, or people who had a practice for a long time and decided that they liked teaching better.

My clinical colleagues definitely make at least 2x what I do! But clinical faculty will still make less than their colleagues out in practice only.
 
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M&L

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Well, it's going to be different in the DO world compared to MD. My schools has taken DOs /MDs fresh out of their residency, or people who had a practice for a long time and decided that they liked teaching better.

My clinical colleagues definitely make at least 2x what I do! But clinical faculty will still make less than their colleagues out in practice only.
yeah, but a teaching or part time teaching doctor will make way more than a teaching PhD, right?
 
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At all the medical schools I've been associated with, in order for MDs to have and teach grad students, they needed to be PIs.

yeah, but a teaching or part time teaching doctor will make way more than a teaching PhD, right?
Yes. Honestly, PhD faculty are easy to come by, but it's harder to get teaching clinicians precisely because they can make more money in the field. My clinical colleagues truly love to teach.
 
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M&L

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At all the medical schools I've been associated with, in order for MDs to have and teach grad students, they needed to be PIs.

yeah, but a teaching or part time teaching doctor will make way more than a teaching PhD, right?
Yes. Honestly, PhD faculty are easy to come by, but it's harder to get teaching clinicians precisely because they can make more money in the field. My clinical colleagues truly love to teach.
i think it might also depend on the school. in EVMS there are a lot of practicing clinicians that teach a course or two. I think this is what i would like to do. Or, be an attending in a hospital where i would be in charge of residents training or medical students training.

@Goro , do you have any advice on what to do during medical school to increase your chances at getting into a more academically oriented residency? High step 1 (i am the last generation to take it) and publications come to mind, but what else?
 
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confused undergrad

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Well, it's going to be different in the DO world compared to MD.

What do you mean when you say the DO world is different than MD? Are DOs more likely to get a faculty position?

in order for MDs to have and teach grad students, they needed to be PIs.

Do you know how an MD would go about becoming a PI?

PhD faculty are easy to come by

I've actually read and heard the opposite haha. My professors say it is extremely difficult to get a job as a professor, especially a tenure-track position.

My clinical colleagues truly love to teach.

Last thing, what do your clinical colleagues teach?
 

TelemarketingEnigma

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What type of teaching do you want to do? A full semester long undergrad course, a few lectures to med students, teaching residents on the wards? Those will all look different in terms of career path.

Teaching undergrads - usually a PhD situation. I never had any MD professors, but I went to a small LAC without any med or grad school associated, so may be different other places. These jobs usually don’t pay as well as clinical practice in my understanding, so you’d really have to love what you do. A PhD will also have a greater depth of knowledge in a specific topic, which will usually be what they teach courses on

Teaching med students - we had lots of MD lecturers, but at least at my school we had tons of different guest lecturers throughout our courses. It was rare that anyone taught for more than a few weeks at a time, and many only taught one lecture. Most MD lecturers maintained a clinical practice, and taught lectures within that area of expertise.

I can’t speak too much to the MD/PhD route since I’m not doing it, but those folks seem to be the most likely to have a finger in many pies - teaching, research, clinical. The PhD preps you for the research/becoming a PI, while the MD preps you for the clinical work.




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What do you mean when you say the DO world is different than MD? Are DOs more likely to get a faculty position?
yes, it's easier for clinicans to get a faculty position. No pesky requirements for having grant money or publications.


Do you know how an MD would go about becoming a PI?
Do a fellowship, gets pubs, get a grant then find a faculty position, or one in industry


I've actually read and heard the opposite haha. My professors say it is extremely difficult to get a job as a professor, especially a tenure-track position.
At MD schools, yes.


Last thing, what do your clinical colleagues teach?
Some teach the Medicine in our organ systems-based courses. A tiny handful teach anatomy.

Others teach in the Clinical Medicine course, which is the doing of Medicine (ie, do to give bad news, how to take a history, how to draw blood, how to do an abdominal/pelvis/eye exam).

Then there are the specialist Dos who teach OMM/OMT.
 
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I've actually read and heard the opposite haha. My professors say it is extremely difficult to get a job as a professor, especially a tenure-track position.
At MD schools, yes.

For PhDs in Chem/Bio, it's pretty hard whether you're restricting to med schools or including all TT positions. The market's really rough all over. The profile of a successful applicant for a TT position at Harvard is going to look different than one for Middlebury and both will look different than someone who sees success at a compass point state PUI or an HBCU.

I wouldn't say those differences make any of them easier or harder to get, you just have to focus on different skillsets and develop a different CV depending on where you want to end up.

I haven't run across adds for TT positions outside of med schools that don't require a PhD (again, Chemistry/Biology departments), but I may have missed some places willing to make an exception for the right applicant.

Salaries with a PhD are definitely lower, but non-med school appointments are frequently hard money, which can be nice.
 
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gyngyn

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I am actually curious about that too. I am a rising M2, and i was looking into possibilities of teaching part time. I want to see what more experienced faculty ppl say (@Goro @gyngyn ), I know that in my medical school there are a lot of MD professors, seems like some of them do not have PhD either. One pathologist said that if i want to teach after pathology residency, i need to go to a residency program that is more focused on academic medicine, which can be more competitive. So he told me that if i want to keep that option open, i need to aim for 240+ on Step 1 (but it will be pass/fail for you though), and try to publish something or do a presentation at a conference during m4 year. Not sure what teaching in other specialties looks like though, and dont know about teaching in undergrad/grad school. I know that MDs teach other medicine related graduate students in our medical school (pathology assistants, for example), but i do not know about outside of medical school.
There are many ways to teach as a physician.
You need no additional degrees to supervise the clinical education of medical students, residents and fellows.
Depending on your area of expertise, you may also teach (didactic and/or small group) in the pre-clinical curriculum.
Universities (undergrads) love to have physicians teach in my experience.

Frankly, the pay is so low (or non-existent) that medical schools are delighted to have you teach as long as it doesn't cut into your paying jobs.
What is hard to find as a physician is a largely teaching job. Teaching tends to take you away from the thing that contributes to your pay in academic centers (patient care, admin or research).
 
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gyngyn

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Do you have any examples of this? Just curious, since I have not run across MD's/DO's teaching undergraduates.
I, along with plenty of my colleagues teach classes in, as well as entire courses at local undergrads.
The content will vary depending on our area of expertise (women's health, human sexuality, endocrinology, stats, preventive medicine...)
 
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confused undergrad

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I, along with plenty of my colleagues teach classes in, as well as entire courses at local undergrads.
The content will vary depending on our area of expertise (women's health, human sexuality, endocrinology, stats, preventive medicine...)

@gyngyn That's awesome and definitely something I am interested in! How are you able to teach undergrads? Do you have an MD and PhD or did you do a research post-doc after med school? Do you work for a university that is affiliated with a medical school? Do you have some sort of contract where you have to teach a certain number of classes? Do you also work in a clinical practice?
Thanks!
 

gyngyn

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@gyngyn That's awesome and definitely something I am interested in! How are you able to teach undergrads? Do you have an MD and PhD or did you do a research post-doc after med school? Do you work for a university that is affiliated with a medical school? Do you have some sort of contract where you have to teach a certain number of classes? Do you also work in a clinical practice?
Thanks!
I have to find time in my schedule to develop a syllabus, recruit additional speakers (if there is an area in the course in which their expertise is greater) and make sure that I have coverage for my other responsibilities. It is quite an undertaking but very rewarding. I consider it part of my community involvement. I have an MD and MPH. I have no requirement to do this, it's more of a volunteer effort although there is a small stipend. I do have a clinical practice.
 
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confused undergrad

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I have to find time in my schedule to develop a syllabus, recruit additional speakers (if there is an area in the course in which their expertise is greater) and make sure that I have coverage for my other responsibilities. It is quite an undertaking but very rewarding. I consider it part of my community involvement. I have an MD and MPH. I have no requirement to do this, it's more of a volunteer effort although there is a small stipend. I do have a clinical practice.

So, did you reach out to the university yourself to teach classes? What do you recommend for a med student to do if they want to teach undergrad courses, like you?
 

gyngyn

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So, did you reach out to the university yourself to teach classes? What do you recommend for a med student to do if they want to teach undergrad courses, like you?
It started when one of my colleagues asked me to participate in her course and it developed from there.
I recommend that you distinguish yourself in your chosen field of study and develop teaching skills that will translate to the needs of undergrads.
It would also help to live well below your means so that you can afford to do interesting things that pay poorly!
 
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confused undergrad

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It started when one of my colleagues asked me to participate in her course and it developed from there.
I recommend that you distinguish yourself in your chosen field of study and develop teaching skills that will translate to the needs of undergrads.
It would also help to live well below your means so that you can afford to do interesting things that pay poorly!

Haha well if you have a clinical practice and are just teaching on the side, you probably don't get paid that poorly right?
 

gyngyn

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Haha well if you have a clinical practice and are just teaching on the side, you probably don't get paid that poorly right?
I serve at a public clinic. I also find that very rewarding, but the pay is well below the average for my specialty.
 
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