The good and bad about Ross

[futurevets]

I am currently studying at RUSVM and I would like to share with you my experience so far. Those who might still be undecided can benefit from this. However, keep in mind that this is MY experience, other students can have similar or different experiences than mine.

First, I will start with the good stuff, the positive stuff, YAYYY!!!

1. The application process is super fast and even tho I had some issues during my application process, it was all due to COVID so it was not their fault. Even then the application process was a very positive experience.

2. The interview, it was excellent. I enjoyed it a lot and honestly the lady made me feel very comfortable and not nervous at all.

3. They look at applicants in a holistic way, they don't focus only on gpa or GRE scores but they take a look at your overall experience.

4. Once you are accepted they will set u up on a fb group and you will have the ability to get to know your classmates. There will be students explaining to you the whole process and it feels very welcoming. You will even have an upper add you on a whatsapp group so you can ask as many questions as you would like. This helped a lot!

5. The student success center will be there to help you out. Granted, their advice is not always the best because everyone learns differently but they are there for you and will help you to improve your study techniques.

6. A lot of support from students 🙂


Now, let's talk about the bad.... yup, there's always good and bad for everything...


1. BLOCKS... ok, let's be honest! I have a love/hate relationship with the blocks so it is not a bad thing honestly. It is more positive than negative HOWEVER, whether you like blocks or not you will burn out.

-The good thing about blocks is that it forces you to study and stay on top of the material
-The bad thing about blocks is that you need to study constantly and because they have a cumulative portion of 4 old questions from previous material, you can still fail the block easily if u didn't learn the material well enough the previous weeks. It doesn't matter if you get all the new material questions right, if you get wrong the old ones u literally fail the block (i do not know how this works for uppers but for lower semesters is like this).

The blocks situation is hard to understand unless you have taken them.

2. 2 weeks break. This is an accelerated program and you only get 2 weeks breaks and 3 weeks break in winter. This may be good for some people but not good for others. It all depends... honestly i think 2 weeks is not enough. Why? if I had a longer break Id be doing internships, externships, shadowing, getting involved in activities to learn more about the real world in vet med. Because I only have 2 weeks breaks, I just want to sleep, lay in bed and watch netflix the entire time because after finals you are literally burnt out.

I know i know.... I knew about the break situation before applying but I thought it was not going to be that bad. Well, I couldnt be more wrong! too late to change my mind now. Ill have to suck it up.

3. Mental health. I won't lie, the constant stress of having blocks, of having that pressure to do well on the blocks each week otherwise you can fail a class, the constant pressure of thinking " am i learning this or am i just cramming it?" is just exhausting. Why do I say this? every week I feel like I am cramming and not learning things correctly because IT IS SO MUCH MATERIAL TO LEARN IN A WEEK that there is no other way to do this but to cram!!!!. I am not Einstein so if you have a way to do this more efficiently let me know!

Now I wonder how well this will go in the NAVLE... (if i make it) lol. I am constantly wondering if I am learning enough to pass the NAVLE.

4. NAVLE. Please be aware that Ross pass navle rate is not good. As a matter of fact they got a warning from AVMA not long ago and now they went back to 80% (dUe To CoViD) lol. Even during a pandemic, no other vet school had such a drop on navle pass rate than Ross. If they go lower than 80 they will be in serious trouble and you can kiss goodbye to the accreditation. They have been trying to improve this but it looks like all decisions they make are the wrong ones. Other vet schools in the Caribbean have way higher navle pass rates, even the one that is not accredited which to me honestly is EMBARRASSING.

Let's see what data shows for the upcoming years. Cant wait to know if blocks will help to increase the navle pass rate.

5. The fail out rate and the rate of those that fail is high. Now, they dont give us those numbers but i can tell you right here, right now, that a looooooooooooot of people fail out. If you fail 2 classes in one semester you are out. If you fail 3 classes during your time at Ross, you are out!!! They don't care if you are about to go to clinical, if you fail 2 classes during your last semester in the island, you will get kicked out and better pray you have a good reason to tell them why that happened. The committee deny more students than they let back in.

They say if you fail 3 classes or more you wont be able to complete clinical rotations in other universities but that is a lie because I have talked to numerous students from different places and their schools dont work that way. True, it limits you where you can apply to clinical but the international vet schools are very lenient about this. Based on their own presentation about how to apply to clinicals, Royal accept 4 or more fails, there is another university that accept students with a 2.0 GPA and 4 or more fails etc... you get the point.

This being said, if you come here be better to study a lot and work your butt off so you dont find yourself in this kind of situation.

6. Last I will say the hardest part is having to lose friends over and over, making friends over and over. Why? like I said above, a lot of people fail out. It's a bitter sweet situation because you want to celebrate and be 100% happy when you pass but how can you? when you keep getting messages from those who helped you out telling you "i couldnt make it?"

I have wanted to scream so many times and complain about how hard this stuff is but most of the time I just suck it up because I do not want to project any negativity towards my classmates but this is hard!!! not being able to vent as you want sucks.


Overall, Ross is a good place, the island is beautiful. The support you have from classmates is strong and Ross gives you a chance to become a veterinarian. If you come here please dont party too much, stay on top of everything and study your butt off. I've cried, I have had so many thoughts of quitting, I have been miserable but I keep thinking it will be worth it one day.

Hope you the best!

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[SkiOtter]

Other vet schools in the Caribbean have way higher navle pass rates, even the one that is not accredited which to me honestly is EMBARRASSING.

Curious. Does St. Mathews say how many people *take* the NAVLE to be included in that pass rate? Since to take it you have to go through PAVE or ECFVG (which is a very hard process/test that many do not pass) before you can even sit the NAVLE

 

[futurevets]

Curious. Does St. Mathews say how many people *take* the NAVLE to be included in that pass rate? Since to take it you have to go through PAVE or ECFVG (which is a very hard process/test that many do not pass) before you can even sit the NAVLE

i dont know bc ive never looked into it but i know someone, not my friend or anything, but we have talked about this. According to her she had to take the navle first then take the PAVE or ECFVG. Only downside of going through this route is that you wont be able to work for the federal government. I assume because it is not accredited you cannot take US government financial aid.

 

[SkiOtter]

i dont know bc ive never looked into it but i know someone, not my friend or anything, but we have talked about this. According to her she had to take the navle first then take the PAVE or ECFVG. Only downside of going through this route is that you wont be able to work for the federal government. I assume because it is not accredited you cannot take US government financial aid.

As far as I’m aware, they need to complete most of the ECFVG or PAVE program before they’re even eligible to sit for the navle. I’m pretty sure that you have to take the BCSE (exam) part of the ECFVG and pass before you can take the NAVLE and then you take the clinical skills portion after NAVLE.

 

[futurevets]

As far as I’m aware, they need to complete most of the ECFVG or PAVE program before they’re even eligible to sit for the navle. I’m pretty sure that you have to take the BCSE (exam) part of the ECFVG and pass before you can take the NAVLE and then you take the clinical skills portion after NAVLE.

Ok so i went back to fb messenger and looked at the conversation i had with the student at St Matthews. You are right, you need to take the PAVE before taking the NAVLE and start clinicals. However, based on what she explained to me, the ECFVG you take after taking the NAVLE. Looks like some states only accept PAVE and some other states only accept ECFVG. I guess it comes down to where you want to practice.

 

[BlueCats]

So scary to hear about how many people fail out. Most vet schools it seams >10% leave and some of that is non academic. I can't imagine what it would be like to take on those loans and then fail, my worst nightmare.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

So scary to hear about how many people fail out. Most vet schools it seams >10% leave and some of that is non academic. I can't imagine what it would be like to take on those loans and then fail, my worst nightmare.

I feel like >10% is not common for most state schools. My class only had 1 person leave (non academic reasons&unsure if they will rejoin 2023) and then we had 1 person drop back a class. However >10% I feel is definitely realistic for schools like the carribean.

 

[futurevets]

So scary to hear about how many people fail out. Most vet schools it seams >10% leave and some of that is non academic. I can't imagine what it would be like to take on those loans and then fail, my worst nightmare.

this is exactly what i think of. Honestly speaking, I have seen people failing out because they party way too much, usually it happens to the younger students based on my experience. I have also seen tutors failing a class. As you can see, is hard to tell who will and will not fail. Granted, I have several classmates that I just don't think they will ever fail because they always get 100 constantly. I have also known people who just take a leave mid semester, you can only do this I believe 3 times only. I have heard of people who failed out complaining they did not know they could take a leave so go figure...

I consider Ross to be a place where it is easy to get in and hard to stay. Why? it is in the caribean and people have a hard time adjusting to it. people do not have the same stuff they take for granted in the USA easily available. It is a very fast peace program, weekly blocks, no breaks to study for finals, only 2 weeks break after each trimester, etc. It does take a toll on you real quick so I assume only those who reaaaaaally want to become a vet can make it.

 

[Sylean]

I am currently studying at RUSVM and I would like to share with you my experience so far. Those who might still be undecided can benefit from this. However, keep in mind that this is MY experience, other students can have similar or different experiences than mine.

First, I will start with the good stuff, the positive stuff, YAYYY!!!

1. The application process is super fast and even tho I had some issues during my application process, it was all due to COVID so it was not their fault. Even then the application process was a very positive experience.

2. The interview, it was excellent. I enjoyed it a lot and honestly the lady made me feel very comfortable and not nervous at all.

3. They look at applicants in a holistic way, they don't focus only on gpa or GRE scores but they take a look at your overall experience.

4. Once you are accepted they will set u up on a fb group and you will have the ability to get to know your classmates. There will be students explaining to you the whole process and it feels very welcoming. You will even have an upper add you on a whatsapp group so you can ask as many questions as you would like. This helped a lot!

5. The student success center will be there to help you out. Granted, their advice is not always the best because everyone learns differently but they are there for you and will help you to improve your study techniques.

6. A lot of support from students 🙂


Now, let's talk about the bad.... yup, there's always good and bad for everything...


1. BLOCKS... ok, let's be honest! I have a love/hate relationship with the blocks so it is not a bad thing honestly. It is more positive than negative HOWEVER, whether you like blocks or not you will burn out.

-The good thing about blocks is that it forces you to study and stay on top of the material
-The bad thing about blocks is that you need to study constantly and because they have a cumulative portion of 4 old questions from previous material, you can still fail the block easily if u didn't learn the material well enough the previous weeks. It doesn't matter if you get all the new material questions right, if you get wrong the old ones u literally fail the block (i do not know how this works for uppers but for lower semesters is like this).

The blocks situation is hard to understand unless you have taken them.

2. 2 weeks break. This is an accelerated program and you only get 2 weeks breaks and 3 weeks break in winter. This may be good for some people but not good for others. It all depends... honestly i think 2 weeks is not enough. Why? if I had a longer break Id be doing internships, externships, shadowing, getting involved in activities to learn more about the real world in vet med. Because I only have 2 weeks breaks, I just want to sleep, lay in bed and watch netflix the entire time because after finals you are literally burnt out.

I know i know.... I knew about the break situation before applying but I thought it was not going to be that bad. Well, I couldnt be more wrong! too late to change my mind now. Ill have to suck it up.

3. Mental health. I won't lie, the constant stress of having blocks, of having that pressure to do well on the blocks each week otherwise you can fail a class, the constant pressure of thinking " am i learning this or am i just cramming it?" is just exhausting. Why do I say this? every week I feel like I am cramming and not learning things correctly because IT IS SO MUCH MATERIAL TO LEARN IN A WEEK that there is no other way to do this but to cram!!!!. I am not Einstein so if you have a way to do this more efficiently let me know!

Now I wonder how well this will go in the NAVLE... (if i make it) lol. I am constantly wondering if I am learning enough to pass the NAVLE.

4. NAVLE. Please be aware that Ross pass navle rate is not good. As a matter of fact they got a warning from AVMA not long ago and now they went back to 80% (dUe To CoViD) lol. Even during a pandemic, no other vet school had such a drop on navle pass rate than Ross. If they go lower than 80 they will be in serious trouble and you can kiss goodbye to the accreditation. They have been trying to improve this but it looks like all decisions they make are the wrong ones. Other vet schools in the Caribbean have way higher navle pass rates, even the one that is not accredited which to me honestly is EMBARRASSING.

Let's see what data shows for the upcoming years. Cant wait to know if blocks will help to increase the navle pass rate.

5. The fail out rate and the rate of those that fail is high. Now, they dont give us those numbers but i can tell you right here, right now, that a looooooooooooot of people fail out. If you fail 2 classes in one semester you are out. If you fail 3 classes during your time at Ross, you are out!!! They don't care if you are about to go to clinical, if you fail 2 classes during your last semester in the island, you will get kicked out and better pray you have a good reason to tell them why that happened. The committee deny more students than they let back in.

They say if you fail 3 classes or more you wont be able to complete clinical rotations in other universities but that is a lie because I have talked to numerous students from different places and their schools dont work that way. True, it limits you where you can apply to clinical but the international vet schools are very lenient about this. Based on their own presentation about how to apply to clinicals, Royal accept 4 or more fails, there is another university that accept students with a 2.0 GPA and 4 or more fails etc... you get the point.

This being said, if you come here be better to study a lot and work your butt off so you dont find yourself in this kind of situation.

6. Last I will say the hardest part is having to lose friends over and over, making friends over and over. Why? like I said above, a lot of people fail out. It's a bitter sweet situation because you want to celebrate and be 100% happy when you pass but how can you? when you keep getting messages from those who helped you out telling you "i couldnt make it?"

I have wanted to scream so many times and complain about how hard this stuff is but most of the time I just suck it up because I do not want to project any negativity towards my classmates but this is hard!!! not being able to vent as you want sucks.


Overall, Ross is a good place, the island is beautiful. The support you have from classmates is strong and Ross gives you a chance to become a veterinarian. If you come here please dont party too much, stay on top of everything and study your butt off. I've cried, I have had so many thoughts of quitting, I have been miserable but I keep thinking it will be worth it one day.

Hope you the best!

Ross has to fail 4-14% of a class between 1st and 7th semester because they have a large intake and do not have enough clinical placements available for everyone. That’s why sooo many people are dismissed from
Ross each semester.

 

[Sylean]

Curious. Does St. Mathews say how many people *take* the NAVLE to be included in that pass rate? Since to take it you have to go through PAVE or ECFVG (which is a very hard process/test that many do not pass) before you can even sit the NAVLE

PAVE is so widely accepted now that students rarely have to go the ECFVG route. Usually, SMU students who fail PAVE multiple times before going to clinics (super rare) have to write and pass just the Basic Science portion of the ECFVG to be able go on and sit for the NAVLE

 

[Sylean]

i dont know bc ive never looked into it but i know someone, not my friend or anything, but we have talked about this. According to her she had to take the navle first then take the PAVE or ECFVG. Only downside of going through this route is that you wont be able to work for the federal government. I assume because it is not accredited you cannot take US government financial aid.

PAVE has 2 parts; a write basic science exam that needs to be passed prior to starting clinics and then part 2 is your clinical rotations. Once you have completed that you can sit for NAVLE. Students only take the ECFVG basic science portion if for some reason they do not pass the written portion of PAVE prior to clinics. No we cannot get federal loans but it doesn’t mean that once you have passed the NAVLE that you are limited in any way. You can work for the federal government, apply to match or become board certified. People seem to forget that Ross wasn’t always accredited and may not remain accredited for much longer.

 

[Sylean]

this is exactly what i think of. Honestly speaking, I have seen people failing out because they party way too much, usually it happens to the younger students based on my experience. I have also seen tutors failing a class. As you can see, is hard to tell who will and will not fail. Granted, I have several classmates that I just don't think they will ever fail because they always get 100 constantly. I have also known people who just take a leave mid semester, you can only do this I believe 3 times only. I have heard of people who failed out complaining they did not know they could take a leave so go figure...

I consider Ross to be a place where it is easy to get in and hard to stay. Why? it is in the caribean and people have a hard time adjusting to it. people do not have the same stuff they take for granted in the USA easily available. It is a very fast peace program, weekly blocks, no breaks to study for finals, only 2 weeks break after each trimester, etc. It does take a toll on you real quick so I assume only those who reaaaaaally want to become a vet can make it.

Ross is a private for profit school so they take in a lot of students and cut a lot along the way...it about money for them. They don’t have enough clinical
placements for the number of intakes and have to cut 4-14% of each class.

 

[SnowJ]

Ross has to fail 4-14% of a class between 1st and 7th semester because they have a large intake and do not have enough clinical placements available for everyone. That’s why sooo many people are dismissed from
Ross each semester.

That seems super unethical to me. Having a couple extra people in each class because some might fail or take a leave is reasonable, but up to 14% over your capacity? That's insane. Of course if it's all about the money to them I'm sure the ethics of failing out possibly great doctors doesn't matter to them, but it seems like the kind of thing that should put accreditation at risk.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Ross dismissed a lot of potentially great doctors, that’s why many of them are grateful for St Matthews. Ross also keeps a lot of potentially bad doctors as well. I have heard stories about open drug abuse and students buying/selling adderall only getting a semester suspension and becoming doctors.

I’m not sure this type of unsubstantiated mud slinging is very helpful to anyone...

 

[Lupin21]

I’m not sure this type of unsubstantiated mud slinging is very helpful to anyone...

This post was removed and a warning has been issued. I have an odd feeling they are undermining to promote another school...

 

[Lupin21]

This is their modus operandi. You should look at their med school. Average USMD class size is ~80-150 (a handful with 200-300) and USDO ~200 (a few "mega" schools at 500-800).

Ross takes in nearly a thousand and SGU takes in >1600 MD students each year (three starting periods). Only ~950 ever match from SGU (and 30% via SOAP). Ross is 600 (>40% SOAP). They can only secure so many clinical spots so they have to adjust the difficulty of their exams to fail people out (they have questions they know students will get wrong and use them as needed).

For example, an MD student at Ross/SGU might have all As and Bs, and score a 210 on COMP (a mock USMLE Step 1) but the school won't let them progress to the real thing. A 210 isn't amazing but it's also not bad (and above passing threshold).

Comparatively, at some DO schools only 1/3 of the class takes Step 1 and most score <210. Those who skip it do so because they couldn't get past a 160-180 on practice tests (passing is 194). Average USMD is 232 for reference. So all in all, you have some Caribbean MD students who are technically smarter than most of their DO counterparts and even some USMD but they are kicked out because that's just how Caribb schools operate.

However, this is the veterinary side. So while there is a higher than average fail rate, it is still a school that graduates highly qualified DVMs.

 

[Minnerbelle]

This post was removed and a warning has been issued. I have an odd feeling they are undermining to promote another school...

Haha, just a hunch eh?

 

[exotics&wildlifehopeful]

I've gone back and forth on saying anything about Ross, but I figured I may as well weigh in since I was a student there for several semesters.
You really need to think long and hard if you truly think you want to go there. I loved my fellow students and the friends I made, but the unnecessary stress that Ross adds onto the already stressful veterinary curriculum is ridiculous.

1. They ALWAYS have issues with financial aid. always. there will be points where students (including myself) won't receive their financial aid payments until halfway through the semester. There was one point when they OVERPAID me by over 10,000 dollars... twice(yes really).
2. The administration is extremely unforgiving, and don't really take what the student body has to say into consideration.
3. BLOCKS. I honestly think that blocks even further push the idea of binging and purging information for exams. Going back to normal exams, I've really begun to see how much information you lose by doing block exams.
4. The amount of people that fail each semester is absolutely insane, and the NAVLE scores are barely passing. With a school this expensive, you should be able to depend on them to prepare you for the NAVLE.

I really feel like I could go on and on, but honestly I just think you should really, really think about whether or not Ross is truly a school you should go to. If you have a decent GPA, you should really try just reapplying, you'll thank yourself in the long run. Honestly. Retake courses or do a one year masters, boost that GPA, and reapply for state schools.

 

[zenarcade]

I've gone back and forth on saying anything about Ross, but I figured I may as well weigh in since I was a student there for several semesters.
You really need to think long and hard if you truly think you want to go there. I loved my fellow students and the friends I made, but the unnecessary stress that Ross adds onto the already stressful veterinary curriculum is ridiculous.

1. They ALWAYS have issues with financial aid. always. there will be points where students (including myself) won't receive their financial aid payments until halfway through the semester. There was one point when they OVERPAID me by over 10,000 dollars... twice(yes really).
2. The administration is extremely unforgiving, and don't really take what the student body has to say into consideration.
3. BLOCKS. I honestly think that blocks even further push the idea of binging and purging information for exams. Going back to normal exams, I've really begun to see how much information you lose by doing block exams.
4. The amount of people that fail each semester is absolutely insane, and the NAVLE scores are barely passing. With a school this expensive, you should be able to depend on them to prepare you for the NAVLE.

I really feel like I could go on and on, but honestly I just think you should really, really think about whether or not Ross is truly a school you should go to. If you have a decent GPA, you should really try just reapplying, you'll thank yourself in the long run. Honestly. Retake courses or do a one year masters, boost that GPA, and reapply for state schools.

Why do you think they have a lower NAVLE pass rate/people failing more than other schools? Do you think the education is worse at Ross, or is it just structured in a more stressful way? If Ross is the only school I get into, then I had been planning on attending there instead of reapplying.

 

[exotics&wildlifehopeful]

Why do you think they have a lower NAVLE pass rate/people failing more than other schools? Do you think the education is worse at Ross, or is it just structured in a more stressful way? If Ross is the only school I get into, then I had been planning on attending there instead of reapplying.

I don’t know, but I think it’s a combination of:

1. the fact that Ross accepts a large number of those that apply. Each semester will have anywhere between 150 to 200 students.
2. the stress of going to school on an island in another country
3. I don’t think the education is less than necessarily, but I do think the way that they present it, especially now with block exams, just doesn’t work. The information just doesn’t stick because you’re constantly binging and purging every single week, and it just adds waaayyy more stress.

I do think that students that graduate from Ross are just as prepared as most other students. But it’s really hard to not notice the low navle scores/ high fail rates and wonder “why”. I think paying that much for school, you should be able to count on a high navle pass rate. And it’s something I regret not considering more.

 

[battie]

1. the fact that Ross accepts a large number of those that apply. Each semester will have anywhere between 150 to 200 students.

Not an island student, but someone who had to repeat first year at a state school. And this is likely part of the high failure rate per semester and on the NAVLE. One of the pros of the island schools is that they give people with objectively worse undergraduate records (numbers wise) a chance. But that's a double edge sword. It could be argued that some of the lower stat people potentially are not prepared for vet school.

 

[Vethopeful8046]

I think to each there own with Ross. It’s not for everyone but it does give those a chance when other schools turned them down.

I’m not sure why the navle rates are low- the block system started with my semester January 2020- it hasn’t been around long enough to point the finger at for the recent navle scores- they were low before blocks.

Ross does admit a lot of students, but they do also fail a lot of students. We started as a class of 200, and are just under 150 now in 5th semester. The classes are rigorous and I do Think many come in not understanding the amount of detail expected of them to know. And ultimately they fail out.

But it does surprise me to get through all the preclinical classes successfully and then fail the navle- makes me more suspicious of how your self guided study time is spent while in clinics reviewing that material.

I might be the odd man out but I’ve never had an issue with financial Aid. Always get my loans before the semester starts 🤷🏻‍♀️

 

[battie]

We started as a class of 200, and are just under 150 now in 5th semester. The classes are rigorous and I do Think many come in not understanding the amount of detail expected of them to know. And ultimately they fail out.

I think part of the question is the comparison to other schools. A 25% attrition rate is ridiculous. It surprises me that this isn't a cause for probation of accreditation.

Granted, it also depends on how that attrition is broken down. Losing 10 to grades and the other 40 to transfers, life events, just simply leaving is a lot different than the reverse. Unfortunately, a large proportion of the Ross students I met on clinics had repeated at least 1 semester.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I’ve worked with a lot of Rossies. Most are great by the time they graduate. There are definitely some that appeared to fall through the cracks (but that happens with a lot of schools. Not surprised there’s more at Ross given their admissions standards). You hear over and over, “Ross gave me a chance when no one else would.” And that’s true for a lot of people. For many, it was a poor undergrad record that they f@&$Ed up at some point in life, and it’s continued to haunt them despite having gotten their sh@$ together. For others, they still don’t have their sh@& together… and unfortunately, vet school isn’t the time to figure that out. Whether you consider that buyer beware or predatory is in the eye of the beholder I think. As long as it’s not a hidden fact. I don’t know how upfront ross is to their incoming starry eyed students, but I their navle pass rates and attrition is a pretty well known fact. *shrug*

 

[kmorkos]

What would you recommend a vet prep student bring down with him to the Island, and should a person live by themselves the first year or are students matched according to their similarities or randomly?

How do most students get around the bus system, or do students buy a car or motorcycle to get around the island?

How do students get their stuff shipped down (UPS FEDEX?) and animals? I have heard of other students doing barrels, do you know how much stuff they can fit/how much they are?