The HRSA predicts an oversupply of ~50,000 pharmacists by 2025; similar predictions for NPs/PAs

[gwarm01]

@PAtoPharm I'm still getting a 10% differential for my weekend job, not every place is tightening their belt just yet.

Remember that even when saturation is in full force, there will still be jobs. People will retire, pass away, leave the profession, move around. You just have to be the slickest guy in town to get that job once it opens. In my experience, hospital pharmacists tend to be conservative people who stick with their job for years, if not their entire career. I think this is why it can be hard to find pharmacists with good, relevant experience for those positions. I got hired right on the spot, before leaving the director's office, for my side job. They were just excited to have someone who was familiar with their EHR and had staffed a pharmacy before. Anyway, all of that just to say if you make yourself a valuable asset I believe the market will still treat you that way. The only thing I see getting in the way of that is if there were massive layoffs, say if a hospital in your city shut down or something like that.

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[PharmDBro2017]

No, I will graduate in 2020 (unless I fail a class and get held back and/or dismissed again), but obviously, the job market is still going to be extremely saturated by then, even if not to the extent of 50,000-60,000 too many pharmacists. Since the HRSA (as well as the BLS) aren't predicting the saturation to reach those numbers until 2025, then it's probably realistic to assume that by 2020, there will still probably be an oversupply of at least ~20,000-30,000 pharmacists. Maybe this is the wrong mindset to have, but the way I look at it is, once a profession hits an oversupply of even 10,000 more providers than jobs, every job is accounted for; the actual numbers associated with the oversupply (e.g., 10,000 vs. 20,000 vs. 50,000...) aren't as important, because zero jobs remaining is zero jobs remaining. One of my problems on a personal level is that, unless the future looks at least somewhat bright, I tend to lose the motivation to push myself beyond a certain degree. Pharmacy school doesn't seem to be so hard during the P1 year, but I understand that it gets very difficult during the P2 year, and unless I'm really motivated to do well, I'm afraid I'll fail out when the going gets really tough during the second year. I just honestly don't think I can push myself to overcome a truly exceptional challenge if the reward doesn't seem to be worth the effort (or if the reward doesn't appear to exist at all, which is increasingly becoming the case with pharmacy).

The way I look at it is, it's better that my area reached "saturation point" around the time that I just barely finished my first semester of pharmacy school than to have it hit at the beginning of my P3 year or at the end of my P2 year. At this point, I can do something else and not have to worry too much about the time or money I wasted as a pharmacy student. For some reason, going back to AA school is clinging to the back of my mind as the most sensible choice to make. If I apply now and get accepted to start in the fall, I will graduate a solid 1.5 years before I'd be graduating from pharmacy school, even if I don't drop out.

In regards to emulating other successful pharmacists, it all depends on what I'd have to do. Relocating to the other side of the country or to BFE is just not happening; I don't want it bad enough. Just curious, what did you do after you graduated and only received a part time offer? Did you move?

I'm an honest person and I won't sugar coat anything, for anyone. The bolded segment from your quote says everything I need to know. The problem is with you, not with any of the above career choices you're considering or complaining about... you don't have the self motivation, drive, desire to reach your own goals. Hell, you're 30 years old and acting like this, it blows my mind. It makes sense why you've hopped careers/grad schools so frequently. Your future is far more bleak than pharmacy's future. Hard working people will always find a job; opportunities present themselves when you put the work in. You need to learn that.

 

[beautifulrobot]

I thought about it, but I imagine they'd tell me I probably am just not cut out for any of these guaranteed-high-income pipedream careers I've been chasing for the last few years, and to me saying "... but there's nothing else I can do to make that kind of money," they'd tell me that the vast majority of the population lives in that scenario and that I'll just have to let the chips fall where they may.

There's always something new to learn if you open yourself up to it. I doubt a career counselor or therapist will have magical answers, but I also doubt that you know everything that they could possibly offer you.

Just curious -- when you mentioned the possibility that I may be anxious/indecisive about something other than the whole job market issue, could you give a few examples of what my deeper concern could be? Are you saying I could be trying to find a reason to talk myself out of doing pharmacy as a career in the first place?

I can't really give you any good examples, since I do not know you very well plus I am not on expert in human psychology (I just play one on SDN on occasion). In general, it could be fear of making a mistake or failing, fear of growing up and settling down, or something else that is preventing you from committing to a decision about career choice that goes beyond just fear of finding a job after you graduate. It's normal to consider job prospects as one of the many factors to consider when making a career choice, but you seem almost unhealthily preoccupied with this one aspect. Your inability to make a decision even though you have an adequate amount of information available to you right now is what makes me think that your problem is more than just a concern about finding a job in a tough market. What the deeper issue might be is beyond me, which is why I suggest you talk to an expert who has experience helping people figure out the answer to the question of how to make this kind of life decision. You're definitely not the first person to struggle with this type of question, but each individual will have a different root cause for the problem, and also a different solution.

Like others have mentioned, you seem like an articulate and thoughtful person that has a lot of potential. I think a little bit of professional guidance could really help you out in ways you cannot predict until you actually sit down and talk to someone.

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

Doesn't seem like you changed your mind on anything, Chapman.

Oversupply of pharmacists by 50k in 2025 isn't a problem... lol this guy.... (but it makes sense, since you work in a pharmacy school and want to fill seats).

I think 10-30% is a vastly wrong estimate of people in this career for money... I think its 75%+.

I'm not sure why you guys misquoting what I say. I said that the oversupply won't be a problem if those who are in in just for the money don't apply.

As for the estimate of those people, neither of us know exactly what the percentage is, but given the thousands of students I have interviewed, I put the number as below 30%. But if it is higher' then that just takes care of more of the oversupply issue, if there will be one.

The point is that we don't want all students to stop applying because tat will lead to a huge shortage.


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[ChapmanPharmacy]

This is just back-ward reasoning. It is a good thing that students are not going into pharmacy because of money? It is a good thing that pharmacists drop out of the profession?

And this is coming from a 3 year old school that charges one of the highest tuition rates in the nation?

Salary going down is a huge indicator of how bad things are. Pharmacists dropping out of the profession is a huge red flag. Why can you get this? You think competitive students would go to school 4 + 4 years and take $200 k in student loan so they can make $80 k a year and be forced out the profession 10 years later?
...
It is just sad seeing how pharmacy schools are now falling over themselves and accepting anybody and everybody so they can fill their pocket with tuition money.

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Once again you take my comments out of context. The good thing about students who are in it just for the money, is that I would rather have students who really love being a pharmacist. And with less of them applying, less will graduate, thus if the oversupply prediction is correct, then it will be mitigated.

And once again you misrepresent Chapman's tuition. Our semester tuition is similar to that of the other private schools in California, although less than USC. The $67,000 tuition is just for the first two years because we have three semesters a year the first two years.

You do yourself a disservice by continuing to mislead people with incorrect facts.

Here are some other facts about Chapman to help you and others understand that we aren't just a typical new school of pharmacy. Both our average GPA and PCAT score is above the national average and continues to get higher. There may be some schools out there that are scraping the bottom of the barrel, just to fill there class, but it's not Chapman. In addition, we are in the top third in terms of research funding. You don't rank that high in research funding by being just another new school of pharmacy.




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[PharmDBro2017]

I'm not sure why you guys misquoting what I say. I said that the oversupply won't be a problem if those who are in in just for the money don't apply.

As for the estimate of those people, neither of us know exactly what the percentage is, but given the thousands of students I have interviewed, I put the number as below 30%. But if it is higher' then that just takes care of more of the oversupply issue, if there will be one.

The point is that we don't want all students to stop applying because tat will lead to a huge shortage.


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You are surprisingly naive. Of course no one (<30%) has the testicular fortitude to admit they are doing this for money in the interview, as that doesn't appear great, does it? Explaining about how we love treating and helping patients and how the biology of drugs works in the body is a much better interview answer.

What is your avg PCAT/GPA score? You mentioned it, so provide actual numbers.

67k/year is absurd, christ almighty. That makes my stomach hurt.

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

America needs good pharmacists. And your Johnny-come-lately, money grab private pharmacy school is contributing to the slow and steady decrease in standards for entering the profession.

No. But you are right that it's very simple. There were less than 80 schools. A need for a slight increase in graduates was created. You and your ilk opened 50 in a ill-advised expansion and made the shortage go to surplus in less than a decade. You did this. There isn't some dorky statistician at the department of labor who forgot to carry the 1. You did this. And you're damned right those of us in the profession are pissed.

When you talk about money grab private schools, you aren't talking about Chapman. Chapman expanded into the Health Profession schools, like Pharmacy and PA, so they could expand from being a mostly liberal arts school. And I'm not sure whether you know or not, but pharmacy is not a huge profit maker because it is expensive to run a pharmacy school like ours that has a major research focus.

And as for why we are in the situation we are in, you can look at the AACP data. There have been more expansion in seats from existing schools than from new schools. I'm not saying whether the expansion by existing schools is right or wrong, just that it isn't just new schools that have increased the number of pharmacists out there competing for jobs.


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[ChapmanPharmacy]

You are surprisingly naive. Of course no one (<30%) has the testicular fortitude to admit they are doing this for money in the interview, as that doesn't appear great, does it? Explaining about how we love treating and helping patients and how the biology of drugs works in the body is a much better interview answer.

What is your avg PCAT/GPA score? You mentioned it, so provide actual numbers.

67k/year is absurd, christ almighty. That makes my stomach hurt.

If you think we depend on a student saying they are in it for the money, to determine if they are in it for the money, then you are incorrect. We have much more sophisticated ways than that.

As for our Avg GPA it is 3.4 and avg PCAT is 72nd percentile. both are above the national average. We do not scrape the bottom of the barrel.

And the 67k a year is not absurd when you realize we are a three year school. The 67k is only for the first two years where we have three semesters. That means our 22k semester tuition is multiplied by 3, unlike a four year school where it is just multiplied by 2. And our third year only has two semesters so the the tuition isn't 67k for that year, but just 45k like the other 4 year schools.


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[gwarm01]

And the 67k a year is not absurd when you realize we are a three year school. The 67k is only for the first two years where we have three semesters. That means our 22k semester tuition is multiplied by 3, unlike a four year school where it is just multiplied by 2. And our third year only has two semesters so the the tuition isn't 67k for that year, but just 45k like the other 4 year schools.

Why do I feel like I'm talking to a car salesman trying to convince me I'm getting a great deal?

Just checked the tuition at my school and it currently sits at ~20k/yr. It was around 13k/yr when I started just shy of 10 years ago.

edit: that price includes all fees, but not books. looks like tuition alone is about 17k

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

Why do I feel like I'm talking to a car salesman trying to convince me I'm getting a great deal?

Just checked the tuition at my school and it currently sits at ~20k/yr. It was around 13k/yr when I started just shy of 10 years ago.

edit: that price includes all fees, but not books. looks like tuition alone is about 17k

I'm not sure why you feel like you are talking to a car salesman. I'm just stating facts.

Everyone knows that California schools are more expensive than most other states. My point was just to clarify the fact that our 67k tuition is only for the first two years of our three year programs. It's not 67k for four years, or even for three years.

By the way, our tuition includes fees, books, an iPad and a MacBook, since you mentioned that stuff,




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[WVUPharm2007]

Everything you type is like Baghdad Bob from Iraq. Money matters and if you say it doesn't, you are lying. Nobody goes into this if it pays $40,000 a year. Nobody. Who would be that stupid? That nonsense about coming up with a "sophisticated" way to see if a person is entering the profession for money (which, again, is the primary reason, like it or not, for the vast majority) is one of your better ones. I had a good laugh.

Also, stop indirectly forcing your students to buy an ipad and a macbook. You're already charging them $69,750 a year. I guess what's another $2000?

According to my math, the degree will cost $186,000 just in tuition. That's not including stuff like parking fees, health center fees, etc. And we're not talking room/board yet, either. That's freaking hilariously expensive....California or not...

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Man at least this thread is entertaining, because Green Bay sure as hell isn't.

Making another bag of popcorn.

 

[owlegrad]

That nonsense about coming up with a "sophisticated" way to see if a person is entering the profession for money (which, again, is the primary reason, like it or not, for the vast majority) is one of your better ones. I had a good laugh.

I also have a 'sophisticated' was of tell if someone is in it for the money. Do they expect to be paid for their work? What do you know, they are in it for the money! Although my way leads me to believe slightly more then 30% of people are in it for the money so I guess my technique is slightly different than Chapman's.

 

[BMBiology]

Once again you take my comments out of context. The good thing about students who are in it just for the money, is that I would rather have students who really love being a pharmacist. And with less of them applying, less will graduate, thus if the oversupply prediction is correct, then it will be mitigated.

And once again you misrepresent Chapman's tuition. Our semester tuition is similar to that of the other private schools in California, although less than USC. The $67,000 tuition is just for the first two years because we have three semesters a year the first two years.

You do yourself a disservice by continuing to mislead people with incorrect facts.

Here are some other facts about Chapman to help you and others understand that we aren't just a typical new school of pharmacy. Both our average GPA and PCAT score is above the national average and continues to get higher. There may be some schools out there that are scraping the bottom of the barrel, just to fill there class, but it's not Chapman. In addition, we are in the top third in terms of research funding. You don't rank that high in research funding by being just another new school of pharmacy.




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You know you are in a bad shape when you are comparing tuition with USC which is probably the most expensive pharmacy school in the whole world. At least USC actually has a campus, next to the med school and hospital. Your so called campus (strip mall) is across the street from a church.

Just remember $67 k a year is just tuition. It doesn't include living cost which is pretty high around the Irvine area. Since you are borrowing a grip of money right away, your loan origination fee will be higher. Interest also starts on the day 1.

I would be pissed if my tuition were going to research rather than my education. If these PhDs are so good then they need to find their own funding.

Whatever this guy say has not been confirmed and verified. Remember this is the same guy who said we will need an additional 100 k pharmacists without citing any research.

He wants to look down on people who went into this profession because of money. If that is the case then why doesn't he tell us how much is he making a year including benefits. I am sure that didn't matter because he would rather work at a new school in the middle of an "industry park".

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[WVUPharm2007]

I also have a 'sophisticated' was of tell if someone is in it for the money. Do they expect to be paid for their work? What do you know, they are in it for the money! Although my way leads me to believe slightly more then 30% of people are in it for the money so I guess my technique is slightly different than Chapman's.

But think how great it will be for our profession if salaries crashed and everyone that was in it for the money left. Sure, their grads would be making $50,000 a year, $250k in debt...but they would have the satisfaction of doing what they love. All 3 of them.

 

[gwarm01]

I'm not sure why you feel like you are talking to a car salesman. I'm just stating facts.

So is the guy trying to sell me a car when he tries to direct me to a more expensive car and says I can get it for the same monthly price once they apply some incentives.

Grrr... currently trying to buy a car for the wife and it's insulting how these guys speak to you. Nothing sleazier than a car salesman.

 

[genesis09]

Man at least this thread is entertaining, because Green Bay sure as hell isn't.

Making another bag of popcorn.

It was an excellent day to go shopping in Wisconsin, though. There were no lines and the roads were clear. I have never seen the mall so empty on a weekend

 

[PAtoPharm]

I'm an honest person and I won't sugar coat anything, for anyone. The bolded segment from your quote says everything I need to know. The problem is with you, not with any of the above career choices you're considering or complaining about... you don't have the self motivation, drive, desire to reach your own goals. Hell, you're 30 years old and acting like this, it blows my mind. It makes sense why you've hopped careers/grad schools so frequently. Your future is far more bleak than pharmacy's future. Hard working people will always find a job; opportunities present themselves when you put the work in. You need to learn that.

So now, the future 50k+ pharmacist oversupply is not really going to be a problem for people who are hard-working and who "want it bad enough," but you're convinced that I'm going to fail at anything I do because I don't want to be obligated to put in a above-and-beyond excessive amount of effort just to get a 30 hr/wk pharmacist job paying $70k-$80k? In other words, now you think that my unwillingness to do what it takes to secure a job in the future post-apocalyptic pharmacist job market (or what remains of it) is an indication that I wouldn't be successful in the pursuit of any career?

What's wrong with wanting to take the path of least resistance? Yes, @gwarm01 says that someone who uses slick tactics and who is lucky enough to benefit from savvy timing (e.g., someone just retired, died, moved) can still secure a good job in pharmacy, but why not take the path of least resistance and instead pursue a career that won't require so much effort and luck just to get a job that isn't even considered to be a "good" career anymore? Here is a comparison: to get to vacation destination "A" which is just kind of an okay place, you have to drive 10 hours through mountains, snow, mud, off-road terrain, and the speed limit is never higher than 45 MPH. On the other hand, getting to vacation destination "B," which is a really nice and desirable place to go on vacation, you only have to drive for 2 hours on a highway that doesn't have that much traffic and you're there. In that scenario, why would someone go through the misery of getting to destination "A" unless there's some specific element that they really want/need to go there to experience? Obviously, pharmacy is that place.

Another way to look at it is for me to acknowledge that yes, you and the other posters have outlined what I need to do in order to secure a pharmacy job in the future. What's the point of going to such great lengths to get a job if there are other career fields that I (or anyone) can pursue that won't take nearly as much effort just to land a job in? Unless there's something about pharmacy specifically that someone really loves, why go through 10x the hassle/effort it would take to get a job in other fields, just to come out on the other end with an actual job that is only 0.3x as good as those jobs? It's like choosing the path that will require you to work harder for a crappier job. Even though the general PA job market is predicted to be in a state of oversaturation by 2025, I could apply to programs now, matriculate into one this fall, and graduate a solid 1.5 years before I'd be graduating pharmacy school, and I'd still be guaranteed to find a job in all but the most ultra-saturated of areas.

Heck, even the anesthetist job market (AAs/CRNAs) has been oversaturated for several years now with there being almost as many AA & CRNA schools combined as there are pharmacy schools, but my area still has more job openings for AAs/CRNAs than for pharmacists!

So becoming an AA/CRNA or general PA are just two examples of "paths of least resistance," in the sense that (for at least a few more years) someone who wants to live in a relatively undesirable medium-sized city (e.g., myself) can apply, get accepted, start school, and just go through the motions of being a decent student who passes their classes, and that nonchalant attitude and amount of effort and passion will be enough for them to secure a job, assuming they don't want to live in an already-saturated area. That's what I mean when I say that sure, maybe someone could get a job in the future in pharmacy if they do the things you say, but unless you really want pharmacy.... aren't there less back-breaking ways to go about getting a career that pays a similar salary and has better job security?

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

Everything you type is like Baghdad Bob from Iraq. Money matters and if you say it doesn't, you are lying. Nobody goes into this if it pays $40,000 a year. Nobody. Who would be that stupid? That nonsense about coming up with a "sophisticated" way to see if a person is entering the profession for money (which, again, is the primary reason, like it or not, for the vast majority) is one of your better ones. I had a good laugh.

Also, stop indirectly forcing your students to buy an ipad and a macbook. You're already charging them $69,750 a year. I guess what's another $2000?

According to my math, the degree will cost $186,000 just in tuition. That's not including stuff like parking fees, health center fees, etc. And we're not talking room/board yet, either. That's freaking hilariously expensive....California or not...

Thanks for your opinion.

Once again, you are not aware of all the facts. Our tuition is actually less than Chapman's undergrad tuition. And the cost of the ipad and MacBook are not included in the tuition, that comes from a separate fund, so the students don't pay for those at all.

But I really do appreciate all of the posts you guys submit, because it allows me to provide factual information for questions that many students may have.

I get it. You want to be mad at someone. And since I'm one of the few administrators willing to engage in conversations here then I get the brunt of your ire. But that is not a problem. I'm prior military, so I've dealt with much more stressful situations. I can deal with this.


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[PharmDBro2017]

So now, the future 50k+ pharmacist oversupply is not really going to be a problem for people who are hard-working and who "want it bad enough," but you're convinced that I'm going to fail at anything I do because I don't want to be obligated to put in a above-and-beyond excessive amount of effort just to get a 30 hr/wk pharmacist job paying $70k-$80k? In other words, now you think that my unwillingness to do what it takes to secure a job in the future post-apocalyptic pharmacist job market (or what remains of it) is an indication that I wouldn't be successful in the pursuit of any career?

What's wrong with wanting to take the path of least resistance? Yes, @gwarm01 says that someone who uses slick tactics and who is lucky enough to benefit from savvy timing (e.g., someone just retired, died, moved) can still secure a good job in pharmacy, but why not take the path of least resistance and instead pursue a career that won't require so much effort and luck just to get a job that isn't even considered to be a "good" career anymore? Here is a comparison: to get to vacation destination "A" which is just kind of an okay place, you have to drive 10 hours through mountains, snow, mud, off-road terrain, and the speed limit is never higher than 45 MPH. On the other hand, getting to vacation destination "B," which is a really nice and desirable place to go on vacation, you only have to drive for 2 hours on a highway that doesn't have that much traffic and you're there. In that scenario, why would someone go through the misery of getting to destination "A" unless there's some specific element that they really want/need to go there to experience? Obviously, pharmacy is that place.

Another way to look at it is for me to acknowledge that yes, you and the other posters have outlined what I need to do in order to secure a pharmacy job in the future. What's the point of going to such great lengths to get a job if there are other career fields that I (or anyone) can pursue that won't take nearly as much effort just to land a job in? Unless there's something about pharmacy specifically that someone really loves, why go through 10x the hassle/effort it would take to get a job in other fields, just to come out on the other end with an actual job that is only 0.3x as good as those jobs? It's like choosing the path that will require you to work harder for a crappier job. Even though the general PA job market is predicted to be in a state of oversaturation by 2025, I could apply to programs now, matriculate into one this fall, and graduate a solid 1.5 years before I'd be graduating pharmacy school, and I'd still be guaranteed to find a job in all but the most ultra-saturated of areas.

Heck, even the anesthetist job market (AAs/CRNAs) has been oversaturated for several years now with there being almost as many AA & CRNA schools combined as there are pharmacy schools, but my area still has more job openings for AAs/CRNAs than for pharmacists!

So becoming an AA/CRNA or general PA are just two examples of "paths of least resistance," in the sense that (for at least a few more years) someone who wants to live in a relatively undesirable medium-sized city (e.g., myself) can apply, get accepted, start school, and just go through the motions of being a decent student who passes their classes, and that nonchalant attitude and amount of effort and passion will be enough for them to secure a job, assuming they don't want to live in an already-saturated area. That's what I mean when I say that sure, maybe someone could get a job in the future in pharmacy if they do the things you say, but unless you really want pharmacy.... aren't there less back-breaking ways to go about getting a career that pays a similar salary and has better job security?

Hey man, instead of posting novels on the internet... why don't you finish one of the degrees you set out to obtain instead of wasting all of your time here? TL;DR.

Seeing your walls of text has finally exhausted me.

 

[PAtoPharm]

@PAtoPharm I'm still getting a 10% differential for my weekend job, not every place is tightening their belt just yet.

Remember that even when saturation is in full force, there will still be jobs. People will retire, pass away, leave the profession, move around. You just have to be the slickest guy in town to get that job once it opens. In my experience, hospital pharmacists tend to be conservative people who stick with their job for years, if not their entire career. I think this is why it can be hard to find pharmacists with good, relevant experience for those positions. I got hired right on the spot, before leaving the director's office, for my side job. They were just excited to have someone who was familiar with their EHR and had staffed a pharmacy before. Anyway, all of that just to say if you make yourself a valuable asset I believe the market will still treat you that way. The only thing I see getting in the way of that is if there were massive layoffs, say if a hospital in your city shut down or something like that.

Please see the examples I just made in my previous post before this one. The only point I'm trying to make is that it just doesn't seem to make sense for someone to subject themselves to a career pathway that they know is going to take so much effort, luck, timing, and hustling, JUST to secure a bare-bones 30 hr/week chain pharmacist job. In general, if you know you're not really passionate about pharmacy and there isn't a specific aspect of the job that pulls you in and makes you want to do it no matter what, doesn't it make more sense to pursue a career where you really can just be a "normal" student who gets a job in their field just because they passed classes, did well on rotations, and graduated? Like I said in my post above, even though the PA field will be saturated eventually, it will be a long time before cities like the one I live in are saturated. If I don't want to do pharmacy badly enough to do all the hustling that the posters here are advising, doesn't it make more sense to pursue a field in which just being an average student will be enough to get a job?

 

[PAtoPharm]

Hey man, instead of posting novels on the internet... why don't you finish you one of the degrees you set out to obtain instead of wasting all of your time here? TL;DR.

Seeing your walls of text has finally exhausted me.

Ok, here's a TL;DR version: it will take an excessive amount of effort, hustling, luck, timing, etc. just to secure a crappy 30 hours/week pharmacist job in the future. There are other healthcare fields someone can pursue where just by being an average student who passes classes/labs/rotations and graduates, they will get a job that pays as much as or more than pharmacy and won't be saturated for a long time. In other words, just by "going through the motions" and being relatively passionless about the career, they will get a job (for now). If someone isn't hardcore passionate about doing pharmacy, then why would they subject themselves to what they'll have to do in the future just to get a job when there are other fields where just being an average student will be all the "hustling" they'd have to do to get a job (like how it used to be in pharmacy)? Even if the other field ends up being saturated in the future, at least they'd have a chance to secure their own career before the saturation hits.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Ok, here's a TL;DR version: it will take an excessive amount of effort, hustling, luck, timing, etc. just to secure a crappy 30 hours/week pharmacist job in the future. There are other healthcare fields someone can pursue where just by being an average student who passes classes/labs/rotations and graduates, they will get a job that pays as much as or more than pharmacy and won't be saturated for a long time. In other words, just by "going through the motions" and being relatively passionless about the career, they will get a job (for now). If someone isn't hardcore passionate about doing pharmacy, then why would they subject themselves to what they'll have to do in the future just to get a job when there are other fields where just being an average student will be all the "hustling" they'd have to do to get a job (like how it used to be in pharmacy)? Even if the other field ends up being saturated in the future, at least they'd have a chance to secure their own career before the saturation hits.

Deal, quit posting here and change careers (again), then. Everyone on here is tired of trying to help you. Good luck in the future.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Deal, quit posting here and change careers (again), then. Everyone on here is tired of trying to help you. Good luck in the future.

You sound kind of mad. At least going to PA/AA school will have me graduating substantially sooner than I would if I stayed on the pharmacy pathway. I guess that when the pharmacy students are bragging on graduation day about how they stayed committed and finished what they started, I can just remind them that while they were finishing their last year and a half of pharmacy school, I've actually been spending that time working a legit 40 hrs/week in my career and not having to hustle for part time and PRN jobs paying zero benefits?

 

[PharmDBro2017]

You sound kind of mad. At least going to PA/AA school will have me graduating substantially sooner than I would if I stayed on the pharmacy pathway. I guess that when the pharmacy students are bragging on graduation day about how they stayed committed and finished what they started, I can just remind them that while they were finishing their last year and a half of pharmacy school, I've actually been spending that time working a legit 40 hrs/week in my career and not having to hustle for part time and PRN jobs paying zero benefits?

Lol, don't kid yourself; I'll be surprised if you ever finish a graduate program of any sort. You're the type of person that disgusts me. Zero work ethic. As soon as anything gets remotely difficult or requires substantial effort or commitment....you quit.

You are the type of person no one wants on their team. Good luck in the future, I hope to not see you post here again. Srs.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Thanks for your opinion.

Once again, you are not aware of all the facts. Our tuition is actually less than Chapman's undergrad tuition. And the cost of the ipad and MacBook are not included in the tuition, that comes from a separate fund, so the students don't pay for those at all.

They charge more than $70,000 a year for undergraduate classes? Seriously?!

Just stop. The more you type, the worse you make your school look.

And unless Apple or some other benefactor is giving you that stuff for free, the students are still paying for those in some roundabout way.

 

[bulldog1123]

You sound kind of mad. At least going to PA/AA school will have me graduating substantially sooner than I would if I stayed on the pharmacy pathway. I guess that when the pharmacy students are bragging on graduation day about how they stayed committed and finished what they started, I can just remind them that while they were finishing their last year and a half of pharmacy school, I've actually been spending that time working a legit 40 hrs/week in my career and not having to hustle for part time and PRN jobs paying zero benefits?

You've made a pretty convincing case on why not to pursue pharmacy school in your last few posts. That is all well and dandy, but what I don't understand is what else do you have left to prove coming back here? Why haven't you dropped out and moved on. If you want to be working your 40 hours whilst I'm struggling to find 30, you best get started applying to PA/AA school and get in. The cycle for next year has already begun. Again, what are you hoping to achieve on here now?

 

[bulldog1123]

The only point I'm trying to make is that it just doesn't seem to make sense for someone to subject themselves to a career pathway that they know is going to take so much effort, luck, timing, and hustling, JUST to secure a bare-bones 30 hr/week chain pharmacist job.

Youre right! We agree! Like people have many many MANY times before. So why haven't you dropped out and begun applying to PA/AA schools again?

 

[PAtoPharm]

Youre right! We agree! Like people have many many MANY times before. So why haven't you dropped out and begun applying to PA/AA schools again?

I'm in the process of deciding on what, exactly, I'm going to do for plan B, and when I have made that decision, I'm done with pharmacy school. I'm keeping an eye on the school calendar so that I will be sure to withdraw before the W/WF deadline. Just a matter of setting a concrete, actionable plan in motion before I make the jump.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I'm surprised that ChapmanPharmacy hasn't been banned for solicitation or at least have had his threads moved to the Classifieds forum.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Lol, don't kid yourself; I'll be surprised if you ever finish a graduate program of any sort. You're the type of person that disgusts me. Zero work ethic. As soon as anything gets remotely difficult or requires substantial effort or commitment....you quit.

You are the type of person no one wants on their team. Good luck in the future, I hope to not see you post here again. Srs.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. So would you accuse a physician, dentist, NP/PA, or other healthcare professional of having no work ethic if they agreed with me and admitted that they also wouldn't have the motivation to pursue a career with such dead-end prospects?

Your logic doesn't make sense. To you, someone is lazy and unmotivated and has no work ethic if they want the time, effort, and money they're devoting to an endeavor to have a high likelihood of resulting in them being successful as an ROI. It's like insisting on holding your stock in a failing company because you think you can somehow exert enough positive influence to turn the company's fortunes around.

 

[rxdawg21]

You sound kind of mad. At least going to PA/AA school will have me graduating substantially sooner than I would if I stayed on the pharmacy pathway. I guess that when the pharmacy students are bragging on graduation day about how they stayed committed and finished what they started, I can just remind them that while they were finishing their last year and a half of pharmacy school, I've actually been spending that time working a legit 40 hrs/week in my career and not having to hustle for part time and PRN jobs paying zero benefits?

We've all given advice. You seem to be making an argument towards a decision most of us have already warned you of and told you to do. Do pharmacy if you want to, or go down another path. We've given you all the advice available and you have a goos understanding of the current situation (of course no one can predict the future.) Quit trying to convince us or yourself and do what you feel is best whether that be pharmacy, PA/AA or DO or podiatry. Most on this board have advised against one, however, it's your life and you can make the decision you feel is best for you

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

You know you are in a bad shape when you are comparing tuition with USC which is probably the most expensive pharmacy school in the whole world. At least USC actually has a campus, next to the med school and hospital. Your so called campus (strip mall) is across the street from a church.

Just remember $67 k a year is just tuition. It doesn't include living cost which is pretty high around the Irvine area. Since you are borrowing a grip of money right away, your loan origination fee will be higher. Interest also starts on the day 1.

I would be pissed if my tuition were going to research rather than my education. If these PhDs are so good then they need to find their own funding.

Whatever this guy say has not been confirmed and verified. Remember this is the same guy who said we will need an additional 100 k pharmacists without citing any research.

He wants to look down on people who went into this profession because of money. If that is the case then why doesn't he tell us how much is he making a year including benefits. I am sure that didn't matter because he would rather work at a new school in the middle of an "industry park".


Once again you quote the 67k a year number without stating that we are a three year program, so the 67k is for three trimesters, not two a year.

And when I say that our school is in the top third in research funding, that means our research faculty are bringing in money. Otherwise we wouldn't have brought in enough to be in the top third of all schools after just two years of being open.

And as for the industrial park. Yes we are in an industrial park. We are in an industrial park right next to PAR Pharmaceuticals, down the street from Teva Pharmaceuticals, and within 5 miles of about 20 other pharmaceutical and biopharmaceutical companies. This provides us with lots of opportunities for collaboration and provides our students with research opportunities. And for the record, Chapman owns all of the buildings between Alton and Bake, on Jeronimo and the street behind us; except for PAR. This is so Chapman can eventually create a more contiguous and campus like atmosphere.

And for any student who has been to the Rinker Campus, they can attest to the fact that the inside of the buildings are beautiful and state of the art.


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[BMBiology]

^ why didn't you tell us your salary including benefits?

You railed against those who went into this profession mainly because of its salary. I am assuming you are taking a pay cut to work at a new school right?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. So would you accuse a physician, dentist, NP/PA, or other healthcare professional of having no work ethic if they agreed with me and admitted that they also wouldn't have the motivation to pursue a career with such dead-end prospects?

Your logic doesn't make sense. To you, someone is lazy and unmotivated and has no work ethic if they want the time, effort, and money they're devoting to an endeavor to have a high likelihood of resulting in them being successful as an ROI. It's like insisting on holding your stock in a failing company because you think you can somehow exert enough positive influence to turn the company's fortunes around.

I hope to God this is my last post directed at you. Please don't post on this forum again dude, especially with you adamant on leaving the pharmacy profession.

So here is the thing, you aren't a physician. You aren't a dentist. You aren't a NP/PA or any other healthcare professional. You are a student, who has quit multiple professional schools. You have basically squandered half or 1/3 of your life at this point, and you don't seem to mind quitting and starting another career! The prospects of pharmacy are unknown but you're right they don't look fantastic 8 years from now, but you can do so many things with a PharmD besides just traditional retail and hospital... at the end of the day it's up to your drive and work ethic to get there, and hustle until you've made it ( whatever that goal is for you personally). If you weren't already in pharmacy school, ya you should pick a different career. If you already spent the time/$$$/effort applying, taking the pcat, paying for a seat, passing courses for a year... you're so invested that it doesn't make sense to me to quit.

At some point, you need to suck it up and finish what you've started. Maybe you should've done all of this pondering about career choices before you started/quit multiple grad schools. Quit trying to reason with yourself and convince yourself that you're making a logical decision.

Make a choice and stick to it, and stop posting here if you are quitting the profession of pharmacy. Good luck.

 

[UofK]

Take out the pharmacist saturation context of the equation. Bottom line is, white collar work/expectations suck compared to 30 years ago. "Life" was much easier to achieve when people didn't give a f***.

 

[UofK]

As for jobs. Psssh, there won't be 50,000+ jobless pharmcists. Walgreens, CVS, et al will instead higher 100,000 RPhs to all work 20 hours per week. No full timers = less expense on the books = shareholders happy

 

[gwarm01]

Work towards putting yourself in a position where you are difficult to eliminate / replace, move to a state with labor protection laws, and hold on for dear life. Save enough money to keep yourself afloat if things go wrong, or look for alternative flows of income. That's basically my plan. I'll probably hold on to my house the next time I move. It's inexpensive and in a very low cost of living area, so worst case scenario I could survive there on a greatly reduced income until I figured out an alternative.

 

[Amicable Angora]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. So would you accuse a physician, dentist, NP/PA, or other healthcare professional of having no work ethic if they agreed with me and admitted that they also wouldn't have the motivation to pursue a career with such dead-end prospects?

Your logic doesn't make sense. To you, someone is lazy and unmotivated and has no work ethic if they want the time, effort, and money they're devoting to an endeavor to have a high likelihood of resulting in them being successful as an ROI. It's like insisting on holding your stock in a failing company because you think you can somehow exert enough positive influence to turn the company's fortunes around.

PAtoPharm I (we) told you so. I (we) told you not to go into pharmacy, yet here you are. Do you understand that by failing out of AA and then dropping out of pharmacy school, you have essentially cheated away 2 slots from other capable students that could have went on to become wonderful PAs and pharmacists?

If you're willing to give it, I would like to know more about your demographics and family background. Either you come from a rich background and you (and your family) can afford your escapades, or your family is breaking their back and heart trying to finance your poor choices. If your situation is the latter, you owe it to your family and the students you screwed over, ethically, to finish your degree.

You reap what you sow. What do you want us to do? But promise us one thing, please keep in touch, and let us know what you end up doing and becoming. I want to know what happens to you at the end. At the very least, you can become a legend, to dissuade the lesser qualified and committed from coming into pharmacy.

 

[Amicable Angora]

I needed to make a separate post for this; this is the first thread I've ever read where I genuinely felt the need to click like repeatedly on like 50%+ of the posts.

 

[gwarm01]

@PAtoPharm tell me this isn't you: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/pharmacist-or-anesthesiologist-assistant.1238274/

 

[farmadiazepine]

LMFAO! Fifty thousand new graduates with hundreds of thousands of dollars debt and no job.

 

[DrFunky]

Ok, here's a TL;DR version: it will take an excessive amount of effort, hustling, luck, timing, etc. just to secure a crappy 30 hours/week pharmacist job in the future. There are other healthcare fields someone can pursue where just by being an average student who passes classes/labs/rotations and graduates, they will get a job that pays as much as or more than pharmacy and won't be saturated for a long time. In other words, just by "going through the motions" and being relatively passionless about the career, they will get a job (for now). If someone isn't hardcore passionate about doing pharmacy, then why would they subject themselves to what they'll have to do in the future just to get a job when there are other fields where just being an average student will be all the "hustling" they'd have to do to get a job (like how it used to be in pharmacy)? Even if the other field ends up being saturated in the future, at least they'd have a chance to secure their own career before the saturation hits.

Dude. At this point, you clearly have your mind made up and you're just sticking around to fight with everyone pointing out the flaws in your thought process, rather than actually taking the advice of every single other person on this thread. But, whatever. There's no point in being supportive anymore. If you want to go, go. Less competition for the rest of us.

 

[tennischamp822]

Honestly, at this point, I would either stick with pharmacy or do AA school. Whatever you do, you have to finish and start earning income ASAP.

 

[PAtoPharm]

PAtoPharm I (we) told you so. I (we) told you not to go into pharmacy, yet here you are. Do you understand that by failing out of AA and then dropping out of pharmacy school, you have essentially cheated away 2 slots from other capable students that could have went on to become wonderful PAs and pharmacists?

If you're willing to give it, I would like to know more about your demographics and family background. Either you come from a rich background and you (and your family) can afford your escapades, or your family is breaking their back and heart trying to finance your poor choices. If your situation is the latter, you owe it to your family and the students you screwed over, ethically, to finish your degree.

You reap what you sow. What do you want us to do? But promise us one thing, please keep in touch, and let us know what you end up doing and becoming. I want to know what happens to you at the end. At the very least, you can become a legend, to dissuade the lesser qualified and committed from coming into pharmacy.

Family is not rich. All graduate schooling undertaken so far has been paid for via federal student loans and the family hasn't paid for anything, just like most pharmacy students' situations. I don't owe anything to anyone; if I actually "took" a spot from someone who applied to pharmacy school and didn't get accepted because of me, then they probably had a pitifully low GPA that was below the required minimum to be eligible to apply in the first place (e.g., <2.1). They probably had stats that were so bad in the first place that they probably wouldn't have received an interview offer even if I hadn't been in the applicant pool. As for AA school, I obviously didn't intend on failing out. Trust me -- if I could step into a time machine and turn the clock back to early January 2016, I would return a week early from Christmas break and start practicing for the lab re-take at least 5-7 days prior to the test day instead of the night before. If I get another opportunity to go to AA school (any school in the country), I will not screw around this time and will be sure to make the most of the opportunity.

... And what does being "lesser qualified and committed" have to do with recognizing attending pharmacy school to be a mistake in light of multiple corroborative nuclear meltdown job market projections? If someone had several years of pharmacy tech experience and was "passionate" about pharmacy, I guess then they'd be well-equipped to pursue a field with such bleak prospects? And why? Oh, because they'd be an example of a "hustler?"

 

[Rxed 1996]

It's really funny that all of a sudden you criticize pharmacy as a dead-end career when you continued to pursue it, fully knowing what it entailed a while back. You wasted your time taking chances and dropping out, not anyone else here.

If you don't think you want to hustle getting through the saturation in pharmacy, and you failed out of AA, what makes you think that adcoms would consider you a safe bet to become a physician? Don't think that getting into medical school is all you have to do. I've known several med students who have busted their asses before and throughout medical school to obtain the residencies and jobs they want. Competition is still fierce in medical school. You will work in hospitals that treat you like a slave. You will have hospitals that will treat you like a human being. Competition is everywhere. If you REALLY want to be a DO, then either apply or take a gap year and improve your chances. Don't do any other health professions until you get to your dream...

At the end of the day, the school gets your money no matter what you do. You're losing right now.

 

[PAtoPharm]

It's really funny that all of a sudden you criticize pharmacy as a dead-end career when you continued to pursue it, fully knowing what it entailed a while back. You wasted your time taking chances and dropping out, not anyone else here.

If you don't think you want to hustle getting through the saturation in pharmacy, and you failed out of AA, what makes you think that adcoms would consider you a safe bet to become a physician? Don't think that getting into medical school is all you have to do. I've known several med students who have busted their asses before and throughout medical school to obtain the residencies and jobs they want. Competition is still fierce in medical school. You will work in hospitals that treat you like a slave. You will have hospitals that will treat you like a human being. Competition is everywhere. If you REALLY want to be a DO, then either apply or take a gap year and improve your chances. Don't do any other health professions until you get to your dream...

At the end of the day, the school gets your money no matter what you do. You're losing right now.

If I want to go to DO school, my best bet for having a shot at getting in would be to do an SMP at a DO program that offers automatic acceptances to students who complete their SMP with a certain minimum GPA (this is basically following your suggestion to take a gap year). I know that medical school is competitive even as a medical student, which is why I would go for a less competitive non-surgical residency if I actually did end up in medical school (e.g., PM&R, pathology, radiology, IM followed by a 1-year fellowship)). However, at this point, I think my best bet is to re-apply to AA schools. My former PD at the AA school I previously attended said he will give me a favorable LOR for whatever programs I want to apply to. Another option is to apply to a local 3-semester accelerated RN program, get a critical care nursing job when I graduate a year later, and then apply to CRNA programs soon after.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I don't think a critical care nurse type job is for you.... You couldn't think quick enough to pass a lab class

I didn't practice enough for the lab test. I only practiced the night before for the most important test of my life. Stupid. The outcome would've been different if I had spent at least 1-2 weeks practicing the steps associated with the lab procedures to the point that they would've become routine. I'm willing to go back (or even to a new school) and put my money where my mouth is.

BTW, nowadays there are so many CRNA programs nowadays (which is why some job market projections also said bad things about the anesthesia job market a few years ago) that many of them don't even require ICU nursing experience anymore. Someone can work for a year in the PACU, for example, and still get accepted to many CRNA schools. A lot of CRNAs look down on folks who apply to CRNA schools with this kind of background, but I'm just pointing it out.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Just spend $10k and 3-4 months on a coding bootcamp already. If it goes well then you will have made an excellent investment.

 

[Amicable Angora]

I didn't practice enough for the lab test. I only practiced the night before for the most important test of my life. Stupid. The outcome would've been different if I had spent at least 1-2 weeks practicing the steps associated with the lab procedures to the point that they would've become routine. I'm willing to go back (or even to a new school) and put my money where my mouth is.

BTW, nowadays there are so many CRNA programs nowadays (which is why some job market projections also said bad things about the anesthesia job market a few years ago) that many of them don't even require ICU nursing experience anymore. Someone can work for a year in the PACU, for example, and still get accepted to many CRNA schools. A lot of CRNAs look down on folks who apply to CRNA schools with this kind of background, but I'm just pointing it out.

I thought you messaged us on the board when you still had time to prepare, and we all told you to go study...