The HRSA predicts an oversupply of ~50,000 pharmacists by 2025; similar predictions for NPs/PAs

[bobisnew]

Can't speak from personal exp. or the 2016 state, but most fellows prior to 2016 were not compensated 70K except for a select few companies. I'd say avg was 50k...enough to live but not save.
You will not become an MSL straight out of college. There are other ways into industry though, ex. direct or specialized clinical exp, certifications, starting as a low paid low key contractor. A fellowship is not needed, but makes it alot easier.

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[PAtoPharm]

Can't speak from personal exp. or the 2016 state, but most fellows prior to 2016 were not compensated 70K except for a select few companies. I'd say avg was 50k...enough to live but not save.
You will not become an MSL straight out of college. There are other ways into industry though, ex. direct or specialized clinical exp, certifications, starting as a low paid low key contractor. A fellowship is not needed, but makes it alot easier.

Appreciate the insight. Since you mentioned that having clinical experience could be another way to get an MSL job, can I ask if you are referring to actual "clinical pharmacist" experience, or would experience as a general staff hospital pharmacist count?

Also, would you mind providing more details on working as a low key/low paid contractor? Can a brand-new pharmacy school grad get one of these jobs?

 

[gwarm01]

Appreciate the insight. Since you mentioned that having clinical experience could be another way to get an MSL job, can I ask if you are referring to actual "clinical pharmacist" experience, or would experience as a general staff hospital pharmacist count?

Also, would you mind providing more details on working as a low key/low paid contractor? Can a brand-new pharmacy school grad get one of these jobs?

Hey, your staff pharmacist experience can be as clinical as your resume says it is

Seriously though, and this is only in my experience, but I have yet to work in a hospital that employs inpatient pharmacists whose sole duty is to verify orders and check meds. Everywhere I've worked (N=4) has the expectation of some clinical work. Some places rotate their staff through clinical shifts as well as central pharmacy shifts too, which is a great way to gain experience and allows a clearer path to specialize. Keep in mind I work in peds at non-profit hospitals, maybe it's different in the for-profit arena. However, my weekend job is at a small adult facility that has a surprising amount of clinical involvement. The hospitalists seem to consult the pharmacy on every other patient there, and give the pharmacists way more authority to alter therapy than I'm used to.

 

[bobisnew]

Ideally, if you're a pharmacist in any setting, you're clinical whether it be hospital, retail, etc. though that's not the perception. To clarify, i mean BCPS, diabetes educator, residency trained, area specialist (ER, critical care, etc., which though the norm, you don't always need a residency...just an opportunity/drive). I worked at a hospital staffing, you're never just verifying order, nor should you be. Drive the clinical initiatives and do more....beyond not only 40 hrs/wk but working on innovative/unique projects you're passionate about. Talk to your mgr about development opp. Network, join pharmacy orgs (participate/lead, not just be a wallflower).

contractor reference - MI, med affairs, drug safety, med writing are the most common. Note, ex. for MI/safety several of these contract roles will expose you but not give you direct exp. sometimes until much later. Theres also the risk of being laid of abruptly, which I've seen. Managed care had a alot in Tx/NJ and some of the teams were actually really interesting...some not. Yes you can get a role as a new grad. But as time goes on, starting pay is horrid as new grad bc of competition. I've heard of a handful folks accepting under half hourly normal salary. It takes time to get FTE, somtimes lots of time. Also, utilize your rotations, do your best and let them know you're interested in a position. Can't tell you how many people went to just "pass", which is fine for some folks with no desire in that rotational field.

It's well past 2a,m here, so excuse any typos and runons. also just saw gwarm's msg - agreed.
Last point - I've fought my way to the area I want. Don't give up, don't go after salary though i know difficult with our loans (personally I'd take a significant pay cut for better QOL and happines.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I was surprised to see this in the news earlier today:

http://www.ajc.com/news/state--regi...tal-care-poor-elderly/5FX9l7qADym2idH3lalEiJ/

The ADA has typically opposed similar pieces of legislation that have been previously introduced in other states, but it looks like this one has a good chance of passing in GA. If it does, then dental hygienists will be allowed to do basic dental procedures under the "supervision" of a dentist. In my area, hygienist starting salaries are already around $80k, and considering how much more valuable the ability to perform these procedures is likely to make hygienists to dentists, I wouldn't be surprised if this resulted in the average hygienist income surpassing $100k in a few years.

Also, I did some research into a local university's new NP program. Applicants are required to have a BSN but NO experience whatsoever. So that means I could enroll in the local BSN program, graduate in just 4 semesters, and immediately begin the NP program the following semester without even having to take a year or two to work as an RN first.

Both options are very appealing and involve pursuing careers that (for the time being) have dramatically better job markets than pharmacy.... just to provide an update nobody cared to see.

 

[PharmerIsMe]

Saturation is like freeeeaking real. I am in FL. Market is next to a pile of estiércol. Nasty nasty nasty market. Planning to get license in the middle of nowhere states. It is UNREAL!!!

250,000 in debt as I speak. Life is a female canine.

 

[Amicable Angora]

So uhh PAtoPharm what did you end up deciding?

 

[bulldog1123]

Saturation is like freeeeaking real. I am in FL. Market is next to a pile of estiércol. Nasty nasty nasty market. Planning to get license in the middle of nowhere states. It is UNREAL!!!

250,000 in debt as I speak. Life is a female canine.

250k in debt?! Did you have steak for dinner each night??

 

[PharmDBro2017]

I was surprised to see this in the news earlier today:

http://www.ajc.com/news/state--regi...tal-care-poor-elderly/5FX9l7qADym2idH3lalEiJ/

The ADA has typically opposed similar pieces of legislation that have been previously introduced in other states, but it looks like this one has a good chance of passing in GA. If it does, then dental hygienists will be allowed to do basic dental procedures under the "supervision" of a dentist. In my area, hygienist starting salaries are already around $80k, and considering how much more valuable the ability to perform these procedures is likely to make hygienists to dentists, I wouldn't be surprised if this resulted in the average hygienist income surpassing $100k in a few years.

Also, I did some research into a local university's new NP program. Applicants are required to have a BSN but NO experience whatsoever. So that means I could enroll in the local BSN program, graduate in just 4 semesters, and immediately begin the NP program the following semester without even having to take a year or two to work as an RN first.

Both options are very appealing and involve pursuing careers that (for the time being) have dramatically better job markets than pharmacy.... just to provide an update nobody cared to see.

Where is your "area"?

DHs salary is typically ~70k everywhere I've seen.

 

[gwarm01]

Saturation is like freeeeaking real. I am in FL. Market is next to a pile of estiércol. Nasty nasty nasty market. Planning to get license in the middle of nowhere states. It is UNREAL!!!

250,000 in debt as I speak. Life is a female canine.

Part of me wishes I didn't leave my job in South Florida because it feels like I'll never break back into that market again.

 

[PharmerIsMe]

250k in debt?! Did you have steak for dinner each night??

Opps, a typo...I mean 230,000...Nope, I wish I had steak for dinner....Noodles suck big.

 

[ldiot]

Thanks for the advice, but I'm honestly so disillusioned with pharmacy by now that I really think it's better to just pursue a field that isn't going to be so massively oversaturated with workers on a national level like pharmacy is heading for. You obviously know what you're talking about, but who wants to hustle and go to extremes not to get a really really great pharmacy job, but just to get a bottom-of-the-barrel 32 hrs/week at CVS job? And if I end up in the position of applying to residencies because I realize that I'm simply not cut out for retail, then I'll REALLY be kicking myself for not just going to DO/Carib medical school since I'll end up spending almost as long as it would take to complete medical school + residency anyways.

As I alluded to earlier, it really comes down to this -- if guys like gwarm01 and msweph and other pharmacists are already talking about planning their exit strategies and are even pondering returning to school to train for new careers, then why not take advantage of having the benefit of knowing the direction the job market is headed in and get a head-start on doing just that? Even if it means going back to AA school...

Did you ever decide to go to pharmacy school? P1? How's it going? You got an internship?

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

You sound kind of pissed off. Maybe you're one of the "passionate pharmers" I angered by putting down "your" profession? I figured it would be pretty obvious to you, but I have to assert that all the anti-pharmacy points I have made in this thread have been objective ones that accurately describe pharmacy regardless of someone's opinions or perspective. And the reason I mentioned medical school as a possibility is because when I was an AA student, I took several medical school courses and did surprisingly well (no grade lower than a B), so I'm fairly certain I could be successful in medical school, although I don't have any delusions about matching into a top 1%-5% specialty such as orthopedic surgery, neurosurgery, etc. That is why I have tried to be realistic in the past and mention decently-paying, laid-back primary care specialties such as PM&R.

LOL. I can't believe you're using one of my favorite memes to trash talk me. Remember it's PASSION™ because it's trademarked by the Schools of Pharmacy.

That being said, you're in denial if you think you can quit two professional schools and think you can be accepted into medical school. You're not really showing commitment by pulling off these stunts.

BTW, your estimations of my current debt accumulation are surprisingly accurate, although they are a little low, sadly enough (but not excessively so -- if your estimate had been $10k-$20k higher, you would have been very close). It is a scam... even the public schools in the southeast are charging $20k-$25k annual tuition. If I actually finish pharmacy school, and that would be assuming that I have the aptitude and motivation to get through the tough P2/P3 years, I'll probably be looking at a total of $220k-$250k of debt. At that point, medical school would be a dangerous idea. I would be essentially obligated to pursuing a competitive-to-match specialty like orthopedic surgery just to pay off the future $600k+ in loans I'd have.

It seems like you screwed yourself over when you began coming to SDN Pharmacy and started posting about how you wanted to become a pharmacist instead of an AA. I'm sure your thought process at the time contributed to your failure at AA school. Now, you've doubled your debt and on your way to excess, soul-crushing mountain of debt. You're lashing out at the pharmacy profession and at the pharmacists on this forum because they tell you that you need to see this through. I'm sorry but you're gonna have to tighten your bootstraps and continue on this path if you even want to succeed in life.

First off, get a job. Pharmacy school is 20K where I live, but I never take out loans for living expenses and other costs of life. I earn my living allowance and fun money by working my ass off during school and break. First year I took out 17K, this year I'm taking out 15K (because of scholarships and some extra money I got from working 60 hours over this summer). You borrowed 3-4 times the amount I did for this academic year. You're really gonna have to man up and work as an intern to bring those costs down.

I work a minimum of 20 hours a week during the school year (and I still have more free time than my cousin who is in medical school). If pharmacy is such a joke to you and you think you're cut out for medical school, then you'd have no problem working because I work more than you and still have a better GPA than what you've posted.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

So uhh PAtoPharm what did you end up deciding?

Well it seems like he chooses to pursue a different healthcare profession every day.

Might as well call him PAtoPharmtoDentisttoDentalHygienisttoCRNAtoNPtoX-rayTechniciantoGovernmentWelfareRecipient

 

[Amicable Angora]

Well it seems like he chooses to pursue a different healthcare profession every day.

Might as well call him PAtoPharmtoDentisttoDentalHygienisttoCRNAtoNPtoX-rayTechniciantoGovernmentWelfareRecipient

If this were a couple months earlier, I could aptly say, "winter is coming."

 

[PAtoPharm]

LOL. I can't believe you're using one of my favorite memes to trash talk me. Remember it's PASSION™ because it's trademarked by the Schools of Pharmacy.

That being said, you're in denial if you think you can quit two professional schools and think you can be accepted into medical school. You're not really showing commitment by pulling off these stunts.



It seems like you screwed yourself over when you began coming to SDN Pharmacy and started posting about how you wanted to become a pharmacist instead of an AA. I'm sure your thought process at the time contributed to your failure at AA school. Now, you've doubled your debt and on your way to excess, soul-crushing mountain of debt. You're lashing out at the pharmacy profession and at the pharmacists on this forum because they tell you that you need to see this through. I'm sorry but you're gonna have to tighten your bootstraps and continue on this path if you even want to succeed in life.

First off, get a job. Pharmacy school is 20K where I live, but I never take out loans for living expenses and other costs of life. I earn my living allowance and fun money by working my ass off during school and break. First year I took out 17K, this year I'm taking out 15K (because of scholarships and some extra money I got from working 60 hours over this summer). You borrowed 3-4 times the amount I did for this academic year. You're really gonna have to man up and work as an intern to bring those costs down.

I work a minimum of 20 hours a week during the school year (and I still have more free time than my cousin who is in medical school). If pharmacy is such a joke to you and you think you're cut out for medical school, then you'd have no problem working because I work more than you and still have a better GPA than what you've posted.

What does you having a better GPA than me have to do with anything? Maybe you're smarter than me, motivated to study more than me, whatever. The only reason I think there's a chance I'm cut out for medical school is because I have already taken some of the same classes that are taught in medical school and did well in them. In fact, it is also an indication that I could do well in PA school, because many of my first-semester AA school courses were taken WITH the general PA students. I wonder where I'd be today if I had just decided to attend general PA school instead of AA school? I would probably still be in PA school. In retrospect, it would've made more sense to have just done that. I'd be close to graduating by now.

BTW, that is why medical schools love to open PA/AA programs -- they don't have to build new classrooms, hire additional teachers, or expand their infrastructure in really any other way, because they just have the AA/PA students sit in on many of the same classes with the medical and dental students.

Yes, I agree that the thought process I had when I posted on here about going to pharmacy school when I was in AA school contributed to me failing out. As one of my former AA school classmates had put it, it seemed like I had "checked out" at the time. Big mistake, wish I would've snapped out of it at the time.

I guess congratulations on working so much as a student? And what are you expecting it to actually get you -- a great pharmacist job working 40 hours every week? Um, no, that's right.... at best, you'll be likely to outcompete all the other pharmacy students who will consider themselves to have been successful if they/you manage to get a 32 hrs/week floater job with CVS (unless you're gunning for residency so that you can spend two years in training to earn a starting salary of $90k or less when you're done).

That is the point people seem to be missing. All the effort just plainly isn't going to be worth the miniscule return that awaits at the other side.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Well it seems like he chooses to pursue a different healthcare profession every day.

Might as well call him PAtoPharmtoDentisttoDentalHygienisttoCRNAtoNPtoX-rayTechniciantoGovernmentWelfareRecipient

In a way, the last one is going to be a good contender for future screenname, since all my loans are federal loans and it's almost a guarantee that I'll be going on IBR or REPAYE. BTW, I know you were just trying to make fun of me, but the irony is that any of those other careers you mentioned are all superior alternatives to pharmacy. Someone really can't go wrong choosing any of them if pharmacy is their only other alternative. I would also throw PA into the mix as well.

 

[quickpic007]

In a way, the last one is going to be a good contender for future screenname, since all my loans are federal loans and it's almost a guarantee that I'll be going on IBR or REPAYE. BTW, I know you were just trying to make fun of me, but the irony is that any of those other careers you mentioned are all superior alternatives to pharmacy. Someone really can't go wrong choosing any of them if pharmacy is their only other alternative. I would also throw PA into the mix as well.

have you got your tuition refund yet ?!!

I think DH/RN/XRAY would be better for you. low up front tuition $ can upgrade to NP PA later. all those should pay high 20's/hr minimum. Minimal debt...work out the debt, instead of shoveling on more RX debt?

 

[PharmerIsMe]

In a way, the last one is going to be a good contender for future screenname, since all my loans are federal loans and it's almost a guarantee that I'll be going on IBR or REPAYE. BTW, I know you were just trying to make fun of me, but the irony is that any of those other careers you mentioned are all superior alternatives to pharmacy. Someone really can't go wrong choosing any of them if pharmacy is their only other alternative. I would also throw PA into the mix as well.

Actually, I think what you are doing about considering options many MANY students will never sit and think through it. It is all good. But remember that there is no silver bullet for the future. Actually, it seems like you would be a good fit for financing/investment banker/broker, as you tend to super analyze the risks/benefits. If you translate that thought process to numbers and risk management, it might be good.

Remember, there is no silver bullet. Pick your risk, make it the best you can, and stick to it until you die. Simple. Remember, when you die, your loans die too! Awesome.

 

[Jbrl]

Endless rumination is taking you full circle, where you started. It's up to you to carve your path in the shifting sands. What do you actually want out of a career?

 

[PAtoPharm]

have you got your tuition refund yet ?!!

I think DH/RN/XRAY would be better for you. low up front tuition $ can upgrade to NP PA later. all those should pay high 20's/hr minimum. Minimal debt...work out the debt, instead of shoveling on more RX debt?

I have considered all those fields, although I don't know if I would want to be an RN because I wouldn't want to bathe patients, clean up crap, etc. There are direct-entry NP programs that look interesting, although they're expensive too. Since it will be a solid 7-8 years before their job market is flooded, I would almost definitely do PA school, if only it wasn't so expensive. Nuclear med tech ($~70k starting salary) for $25k tuition and less than 2 years of school also looks more and more appealing.

Actually, I think what you are doing about considering options many MANY students will never sit and think through it. It is all good. But remember that there is no silver bullet for the future. Actually, it seems like you would be a good fit for financing/investment banker/broker, as you tend to super analyze the risks/benefits. If you translate that thought process to numbers and risk management, it might be good.

Remember, there is no silver bullet. Pick your risk, make it the best you can, and stick to it until you die. Simple. Remember, when you die, your loans die too! Awesome.

If I could go back to my very first year of undergrad, I would have probably done something like accounting if I had known how AA (and then pharmacy) school was going to turn out. Also, I think general PA school would have been a better bet -- I could have gotten accepted in 2011-2012, graduated in 2013 or 2014, and been spending the last few years earning money as a PA.

Can you please just shut the hell up already? You have no actual experience- you can't actually speak about the job market. It's all hearsay. plenty of pharm graduates get 40 hours per week job offers.

Every pharmacist I know makes over 90K base. I stated as a new grad with no residency, at the lowest paid hospital in the city, in the lowest paid market in the state and I made 91K before shift differential.

If it isn't worth it, then quit. The return isn't worth the investment- you've mentioned it many times. You're an idiot if you continue since the benefit is so "miniscule"

And no, I'm not a 'pharmer' or 'angry' at you or the market.

Best of luck

How can I not "actually speak" about the job market? Why would it take first-hand knowledge of the market as a working pharmacist to be able to perform simple analysis of the multiple government-subsidized job market projections and come to the conclusion that the market sucks? Also, I have posted before about how every single job listing website (e.g., Indeed.com and others) only lists 1 or 2 jobs with CVS for my area and nothing else. I have also been put in touch with DMs at several companies who have all corroborated what the job market projections indicate. What you said in your post is like saying that someone can't say anything negative about the job market for lawyers unless they've graduated from law school and have attempted to search for jobs themselves. If something objectively sucks, then first-hand experience isn't necessary.

Endless rumination is taking you full circle, where you started. It's up to you to carve your path in the shifting sands. What do you actually want out of a career?

Good question. I want something that pays relatively well (six figures), is flexible in terms of where someone can live/work, isn't too stressful, offers a decent amount of PTO, and is tolerable (I.e., it doesn't have to be enjoyable, but it also can't make me utterly miserable -- as long as I can tolerate it in an almost "neutral" sense).

 

[PAtoPharm]

Okay, I talked with someone in real life whose wife just graduated from a PA program in the southeast last spring. She was actually offered tuition reimbursement to work at a practice in NORTH ATLANTA (this is "The Nice Part" for those of who aren't familiar with ATL) for a couple of years, so in less than 2 years, she will have NO debt to pay back other than what she took out for living expenses while a student. I have no idea how common such tuition reimbursement arrangement offers are these days, but if practices in desirable areas are offering them, they must not be that difficult to get.

So if I could possibly get accepted to PA school, live at home while I attend (thereby not needing to take out much in loans to pay for living expenses), and receive a similar tuition reimbursement deal from a local practice, that would put me in the position of graduating from PA school with minimal additional loans. Of course, the "catch" is that my AA/pharm school loans would continue to accumulate interest, but that would be the case regardless of what program I attend. Also, if I complete a PA residency program, I will potentially be offered the salary that a PA who has been working for that practice for 5 years would earn, so that could help offset the additional interest that would accumulate (yes, in the PA profession, completing a residency actually leads to earning a higher salary).

 

[Jbrl]

Good question. I want something that pays relatively well (six figures), is flexible in terms of where someone can live/work, isn't too stressful, offers a decent amount of PTO, and is tolerable (I.e., it doesn't have to be enjoyable, but it also can't make me utterly miserable -- as long as I can tolerate it in an almost "neutral" sense).

1. Six figures - what's your time horizon to achieve this? Directly after graduation? 5 years out?
2. What kind of area would you not want to work in? Rural? Metro? Suburbia?
3. What is your benchmark for stressful?
4. How many weeks of PTO would you want?

Lastly - why healthcare?

Okay, I talked with someone in real life whose wife just graduated from a PA program in the southeast last spring. She was actually offered tuition reimbursement to work at a practice in NORTH ATLANTA (this is "The Nice Part" for those of who aren't familiar with ATL) for a couple of years, so in less than 2 years, she will have NO debt to pay back other than what she took out for living expenses while a student. I have no idea how common such tuition reimbursement arrangement offers are these days, but if practices in desirable areas are offering them, they must not be that difficult to get.

So if I could possibly get accepted to PA school, live at home while I attend (thereby not needing to take out much in loans to pay for living expenses), and receive a similar tuition reimbursement deal from a local practice, that would put me in the position of graduating from PA school with minimal additional loans. Of course, the "catch" is that my AA/pharm school loans would continue to accumulate interest, but that would be the case regardless of what program I attend. Also, if I complete a PA residency program, I will potentially be offered the salary that a PA who has been working for that practice for 5 years would earn, so that could help offset the additional interest that would accumulate (yes, in the PA profession, completing a residency actually leads to earning a higher salary).

Not to be a debbie downer, but with two healthcare schools under your belt and a relatively poor GPA, I don't think PA/NP/MD/DO are realistic options. You're a veritable flight risk.

I'm telling you this so you can filter the indecision cacophony into something more concentrated. Clarity is key.

 

[PAtoPharm]

1. Six figures - what's your time horizon to achieve this? Directly after graduation? 5 years out?
2. What kind of area would you not want to work in? Rural? Metro? Suburbia?
3. What is your benchmark for stressful?
4. How many weeks of PTO would you want?

Lastly - why healthcare?

Not to be a debbie downer, but with two healthcare schools under your belt and a relatively poor GPA, I don't think PA/NP/MD/DO are realistic options. You're a veritable flight risk.

I'm telling you this so you can filter the indecision cacophony into something more concentrated. Clarity is key.

To answer your first questions -- I will not live in rural (BFE) areas, and I don't want to be forced to live in a huge city. I'm not sure what my benchmark for stressful is, but I probably wouldn't want to be an ER doctor. I would want at least 4-6 weeks of PTO. Why healthcare? -- at this point, my undergrad coursework and everything I've done since then has been healthcare-related and I'm just not interested in starting over again from the ground level and learning a completely new type of subject matter.

I actually don't have a poor GPA (still over 3.4, at least -- possibly higher), but the academic history of being enrolled in healthcare programs does look bad. I just figure that with so many programs out there, one of the private schools just has to be willing to grant me an interview invitation. I agree that getting accepted to a PA program run by a state public medical school is going to be next to impossible, but I'm confident that there are programs out there that would accept me.

I honestly think I could make a fairly strong case for why I'm likely to be successful in PA school; between AA school and pharmacy school, I have already taken much of the curriculum that is taught during the first 2 (very difficult) didactic semesters of PA school (e.g., anatomy, physiology, biochem, microbio, etc.). In fact, I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that many of the classes I took during my first semester of AA school were actually taken with (literally in the same classroom) PA students, so unless the clinical rotations during PA school are brutally difficult, there is a very good chance I would pass PA school, especially since I have proven that I can pass the majority of the first two semesters (which is when most PA students fail out, if they're going to do so).

 

[Jbrl]

To answer your first questions -- I will not live in rural (BFE) areas, and I don't want to be forced to live in a huge city. I'm not sure what my benchmark for stressful is, but I probably wouldn't want to be an ER doctor. I would want at least 4-6 weeks of PTO. Why healthcare? -- at this point, my undergrad coursework and everything I've done since then has been healthcare-related and I'm just not interested in starting over again from the ground level and learning a completely new type of subject matter.

I actually don't have a poor GPA (still over 3.4, at least -- possibly higher), but the academic history of being enrolled in healthcare programs does look bad. I just figure that with so many programs out there, one of the private schools just has to be willing to grant me an interview invitation. I agree that getting accepted to a PA program run by a state public medical school is going to be next to impossible, but I'm confident that there are programs out there that would accept me.

I honestly think I could make a fairly strong case for why I'm likely to be successful in PA school; between AA school and pharmacy school, I have already taken much of the curriculum that is taught during the first 2 (very difficult) didactic semesters of PA school (e.g., anatomy, physiology, biochem, microbio, etc.). In fact, I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that many of the classes I took during my first semester of AA school were actually taken with (literally in the same classroom) PA students, so unless the clinical rotations during PA school are brutally difficult, there is a very good chance I would pass PA school, especially since I have proven that I can pass the majority of the first two semesters (which is when most PA students fail out, if they're going to do so).

Yeah, it seems being a physician is out of the question. It seems like starting from scratch is also out of the question (though a couple solid generalist recommendations might be business or tech, given your specifications). It also seems, from your post, that money (>100k) and comfort are primary drivers for you. With that said, options are PharmD, NP, PA (like you described).

• How certain are you that you would be able to be admitted to PA/nursing if you drop pharmacy?
• How certain are you that you would be able to be admitted to PA/nursing with your current credentials and extracurricular experiences?
• If you lack the requisite clinical/EC experiences, what are you willing to do to shore them up?

If you're granted an interview, the inevitable question will come, either explicitly or implicitly: what made you make the switch from AA (academics) and pharmacy (job market), and why wouldn't you do the same to us for either reason?

• How certain are you that you can handle the academic load, given your experience in AA school, and who have you spoken to to corroborate this?
• How certain are you that it would be the best move for you financially, and that the job market will hold to entice you to stay?

I think you've done quite a lot of thinking. What you could do with what you know is turn them into targeted questions/insights and act upon them as soon as feasible. For example, I think you've done enough research about the job market. Have you talked to any adcoms on this website to inquire about your chances for PA/NP?

You're very pessimistic about your probability of 'succeeding' in pharmacy school and conversely optimistic about your probability in PA/NP school. Be sure the grass is truly greener on the other side. It takes time to move from one pasture to another, and there are plenty of fences to prevent you from crossing.

 

[bulldog1123]

You're very pessimistic about your probability of 'succeeding' in pharmacy school and conversely optimistic about your probability in PA/NP school. Be sure the grass is truly greener on the other side. It takes time to move from one pasture to another, and there are plenty of fences to prevent you from crossing.

A million times this. You can't have it both ways. You can't take the absolute worst case from one side and the compare it to best case scenarios on the other and take that as a benchmark.

 

[PharmerIsMe]

Not going to argue. You're a P1. I've been around the pharmacy world for 10 years. Yes the market isn't great. But it isn't terrible. 40 hours per week exists. Jobs exist. I got a phone call for a job I applied for less than 48 hours after I submitted it. I don't have a residency.


You are a pessimist. Have a great evening. PS I'm drunk.

Where are you located? I am hunting jobs like a wild dog. Here in FL, market is poop

 

[gwarm01]

Where are you located? I am hunting jobs like a wild dog. Here in FL, market is poop

He's in the SE region, same as me. There are more jobs available outside of Florida for sure, but it's way easier to get them once you have experience. I had a similar story. Graduated in 2013, moved to S. Florida for my wife's job. I applied to over 30 hospitals, only got three interviews, but at least did manage to get job offers from each. I didn't start working until September after a May graduation. It was pretty rough. Anyway, after a few years I was looking for the next step and started applying to jobs both in and out of state and I'd say my hit rate for responses jumped up to about 33-50%. Not bad at all.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Please note that calling other users out, insulting them, calling them names or using profanity are all violations of the Terms of Service. Please remain and civil, courteous and professional in your responses.

 

[zelman]

Can you please just shut the hell up already? You have no actual experience- you can't actually speak about the job market. It's all hearsay. plenty of pharm graduates get 40 hours per week job offers.

Every pharmacist I know makes over 90K base. I stated as a new grad with no residency, at the lowest paid hospital in the city, in the lowest paid market in the state and I made 91K before shift differential.

If it isn't worth it, then quit. The return isn't worth the investment- you've mentioned it many times. You're an idiot if you continue since the benefit is so "miniscule"

And no, I'm not a 'pharmer' or 'angry' at you or the market.

Best of luck

Just one data point, but my base is below $90k.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Yeah, it seems being a physician is out of the question. It seems like starting from scratch is also out of the question (though a couple solid generalist recommendations might be business or tech, given your specifications). It also seems, from your post, that money (>100k) and comfort are primary drivers for you. With that said, options are PharmD, NP, PA (like you described).

• How certain are you that you would be able to be admitted to PA/nursing if you drop pharmacy?
• How certain are you that you would be able to be admitted to PA/nursing with your current credentials and extracurricular experiences?
• If you lack the requisite clinical/EC experiences, what are you willing to do to shore them up?

If you're granted an interview, the inevitable question will come, either explicitly or implicitly: what made you make the switch from AA (academics) and pharmacy (job market), and why wouldn't you do the same to us for either reason?

• How certain are you that you can handle the academic load, given your experience in AA school, and who have you spoken to to corroborate this?
• How certain are you that it would be the best move for you financially, and that the job market will hold to entice you to stay?

I think you've done quite a lot of thinking. What you could do with what you know is turn them into targeted questions/insights and act upon them as soon as feasible. For example, I think you've done enough research about the job market. Have you talked to any adcoms on this website to inquire about your chances for PA/NP?

You're very pessimistic about your probability of 'succeeding' in pharmacy school and conversely optimistic about your probability in PA/NP school. Be sure the grass is truly greener on the other side. It takes time to move from one pasture to another, and there are plenty of fences to prevent you from crossing.

Good advice, and those are also pertinent questions I will need to be able to answer (especially those that are likely to be asked during an interview). On a somewhat optimistic note, the nice thing about a lot of the PA schools out there these days is that many of them hold what they call "closed-file" interviews, which means that during the interview, the interviewer doesn't have the student's file in front of them and doesn't know about any of the interviewee's personal details; they literally go down the same list of questions that they ask every other interviewee and simply "score" each applicant. This was how all my pharmacy school interviews worked, which meant that I didn't even have to reference or answer questions regarding my previous AA school failure. A possible PA school application strategy (if I decide to go that route) could be to simply apply to schools that utilize closed-file interviews.

To answer your other questions, I'm fairly certain that I could get accepted to at least ONE of the PA schools in the southeast since so many of them have opened in recent years, and my situation is somewhat salvaged by the fact that my GPA is still decent, at least according to PA school admissions standards. If I happen to lack the clinical/EC experiences that PA schools want applicants to have, then I'll do what one of my former undergrad acquaintances who just graduated from PA school recommended me to do (he did this as well) -- work as either a medical assistant or a medical scribe. Also, according to the research I've done and based on what others have told me, some of the "for-profit" PA schools out there (e.g., South University) don't place nearly as much of a premium on having clinical experience as some of the older, more established programs do, so it may or may not be a big deal if I don't have it.

Why I am certain I can handle the academic load in PA school -- I was successful in ALL the courses I took in AA school that were taken with PA students (no grade lower than a B+). In fact, the reason my GPA is still fairly competitive is because I only made a bad grade in a single lab course. Academically, I never had any issues. To answer your question about whether the job market would be able to entice me to stay in that profession -- I would say yes. Even though the PA/NP job market is projected to be saturated by 2025, I would have a solid 5-6 years before that time comes during which I could establish career and get experience. I could even complete a residency to make myself more valuable to employers and (most likely) secure a higher starting salary.

I have not yet talked to any adcoms regarding my chances of actually getting accepted to PA school. I guess that would be my next step, if I do decide that I want to go to PA school. BTW, in all the research I've done, I would say that the only "downside" to being a PA/NP is that most of them are expected to take call a few days per month, and they usually aren't compensated extra for this. Oh well; I guess there are trade-offs with everything.

On a positive note, I got in touch last Friday with a faculty member from a nuclear medicine technologist program who told me that they primarily just assess an applicant's pre-requisites grades when evaluating their competitiveness, and that they don't really pay much attention to whether they were enrolled in previous programs before. I guess this is because the NMT program is a bachelor's degree, not a master's or doctoral program? Either way, I was just throwing that out there since it seems to suggest that NMT can be a "last resort" career in the event that I truly am blacklisted from PA schools.

A million times this. You can't have it both ways. You can't take the absolute worst case from one side and the compare it to best case scenarios on the other and take that as a benchmark.

The only catch is, I'm not actually looking at a "best case" scenario for PAs/NPs -- all I did was perform a search on Indeed.com for PA jobs in various cities throughout GA and compare the results I found to the results I had when I searched on the same website for pharmacist jobs in the same cities throughout GA. I didn't even try to search for the kinds of jobs PAs would consider to be "really good" jobs.

Not going to argue. You're a P1. I've been around the pharmacy world for 10 years. Yes the market isn't great. But it isn't terrible. 40 hours per week exists. Jobs exist. I got a phone call for a job I applied for less than 48 hours after I submitted it. I don't have a residency.


You are a pessimist. Have a great evening. PS I'm drunk.

Did you apply for the job after you'd already gotten several years of experience? Also, when you say "jobs exist," what areas of the country are you actually referring to? Sure, there are still plenty of jobs in BFE towns like Brewton, AL and Andalusia, AL, but who wants to live in places like that? And why does someone have to have 10 years of pharmacy experience to consider the results of job searches to be valid? It just doesn't make sense to me; I always considered concepts like the job market to be objectively-assessed ones, but I guess I'm wrong about that like I am about everything else.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Just one data point, but my base is below $90k.

Are you a hospital pharmacist?

 

[zelman]

Dang. Really? Why? Are you full time?

My company treats all salaried pharmacists as "full time" but my base hours are 48 every two weeks. This is retail in a state with the lowest pharmacist demand to supply ratio.

 

[Amicable Angora]

PAtoPharm, why not finish your pharmacy degree and then go back for PA school afterward if you really can't stand it?

 

[deleted820760]

PAtoPharm, why not finish your pharmacy degree and then go back for PA school afterward if you really can't stand it?

But why? I honestly think he should drop out of pharmacy school and choose a career in something he likes. Why do something that he thinks is not worth the trouble or hustle? Especially something as expensive as pharmacy school.

Besides, if he finishes pharmacy school and then goes to PA school, he will be even more in debt and PA market will be more saturated.

@PAtoPharm You have enough information to make a decision. What are you waiting for and what kind of advice are you wanting at this point that has not been given multiple times before?

 

[Amicable Angora]

But why? I honestly think he should drop out of pharmacy school and choose a career in something he likes. Why do something that he thinks is not worth the trouble or hustle? Especially something as expensive as pharmacy school.

Besides, if he finishes pharmacy school and then goes to PA school, he will be even more in debt and PA market will be more saturated.

@PAtoPharm You have enough information to make a decision. What are you waiting for and what kind of advice are you wanting at this point that has not been given multiple times before?

I agree with you, I just think that it's very important to start something and finish it, at least for PAtoPharmD. I think he would be digging himself into a dead end if he abandoned professional school for the 2nd time and tried to move on. He really might be stuck with nothing.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Did you apply for the job after you'd already gotten several years of experience? Also, when you say "jobs exist," what areas of the country are you actually referring to? Sure, there are still plenty of jobs in BFE towns like Brewton, AL and Andalusia, AL, but who wants to live in places like that? And why does someone have to have 10 years of pharmacy experience to consider the results of job searches to be valid? It just doesn't make sense to me; I always considered concepts like the job market to be objectively-assessed ones, but I guess I'm wrong about that like I am about everything else.

I'd love to live 1 hour from nice Florida beaches (Pensacola) - sign me up!!!!

 

[gwarm01]

I'd love to live 1 hour from nice Florida beaches (Pensacola) - sign me up!!!!

I'd rather live in the town within walking distance of the beach. Now there's a life goal.

 

[gwarm01]

Hurricanes!

Never saw one in my time there and believe me I was looking.

 

[gwarm01]

What about alligators and crocodiles? I heard they end up in trees and people's front doors.

Never saw a gator downtown and I think the crocs are a case of some illegally introduced specimens in the Everglades. I don't think it's a large population..

I spent a lot of time fishing the canals in Fort Lauderdale and the surrounding area. The largest reptile I saw was an iguana, but they get pretty big. It gets more rural as you go west towards the glades, so I'm sure there are gators around every once in a while, but it's not like they are just crawling the streets.

Also there were wild parrots.

 

[zelman]

Really? What are you doing now? Didn't you work at CVS before?

I'm at Walmart. I moved to Hawaii and the supervisor here took months to try and hire/transfer me, so I ended up getting a new job while waiting.

That makes more sense. I thought your hourly rate is low, but you just don't get 40 hours a week, and your hourly rate is likely ok. I could be OK with that because you're still being fairly compensated for your work. You can get another part time or prn job to make full time salary.

Hourly rate is good, but there aren't PRN jobs here. If I owned an aircraft to commute to Oahu, I could do it, but this island is pretty rural so getting a non-retail PRN job is not likely and retail is not allowed by non-compete policy.

 

[rxdawg21]

I'm at Walmart. I moved to Hawaii and the supervisor here took months to try and hire/transfer me, so I ended up getting a new job while waiting.

Hourly rate is good, but there aren't PRN jobs here. If I owned an aircraft to commute to Oahu, I could do it, but this island is pretty rural so getting a non-retail PRN job is not likely and retail is not allowed by non-compete policy.

You moved to Hawaii and work 48 hours every 2 weeks base..Sounds like the dream as long as you can afford it.

 

[zelman]

You moved to Hawaii and work 48 hours every 2 weeks base..Sounds like the dream as long as you can afford it.

Yeah. I'd love to do LTC or hospital one day a week, but this is okay, too.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

I'm at Walmart. I moved to Hawaii and the supervisor here took months to try and hire/transfer me, so I ended up getting a new job while waiting.

Hourly rate is good, but there aren't PRN jobs here. If I owned an aircraft to commute to Oahu, I could do it, but this island is pretty rural so getting a non-retail PRN job is not likely and retail is not allowed by non-compete policy.

What island you live on? Lived on Oahu for 5 years; visited Maui, Molokai, Kauai... enjoyed the more rural islands. Oahu traffic has gotten pretty unbearable from what friends have told me.

 

[zelman]

So you make less than 90K because you're part time. Not because your rate.

My employer calls me full time.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[zelman]

What island you live on? Lived on Oahu for 5 years; visited Maui, Molokai, Kauai... enjoyed the more rural islands. Oahu traffic has gotten pretty unbearable from what friends have told me.

I'm on The Big Island (Hawai'i for you mainland people). Traffic is sometimes an issue, but I've got a moped to get around most of it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[zelman]

CVS ? Why do they that ?

Walmart. To avoid paying travel time.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I'm at Walmart. I moved to Hawaii and the supervisor here took months to try and hire/transfer me, so I ended up getting a new job while waiting.

Hourly rate is good, but there aren't PRN jobs here. If I owned an aircraft to commute to Oahu, I could do it, but this island is pretty rural so getting a non-retail PRN job is not likely and retail is not allowed by non-compete policy.

Is the arrangement you have (only 48 hours every 2 weeks) a pretty common base offer for Walmart nowadays? Is there anything in your contract about the number of hours offered increasing in a year or two, or is Walmart just pushing to reduce the individual hours worked for more and more pharmacists?

 

[zelman]

Is the arrangement you have (only 48 hours every 2 weeks) a pretty common base offer for Walmart nowadays? Is there anything in your contract about the number of hours offered increasing in a year or two, or is Walmart just pushing to reduce the individual hours worked for more and more pharmacists?

Contract? Ha.

I don't know if 48 hr base is common, but there were some cryptic posts on here last year about something-or-other-360 and some Walmart pharmacists were concerned about it. Apparently it was a push to eliminate hourly/part-time pharmacists altogether, so this type of position replaced it.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I agree with you, I just think that it's very important to start something and finish it, at least for PAtoPharmD. I think he would be digging himself into a dead end if he abandoned professional school for the 2nd time and tried to move on. He really might be stuck with nothing.

Yes, your last point is the biggest risk associated with dropping out of pharm school. In retrospect, after getting kicked out of AA school, I should have realized that either going back to AA school or going to a regular PA program would have been the best options, considering my age and how much longer pharmacy school takes as compared to PA school (literally twice as long). If I had applied to PA schools last spring and matriculated this past fall (2016), I would now be able to say, "In about a year and a half, I will be graduating." Instead, I've got around 3.5 years to go before I graduate with a degree that I'll have a much harder time finding a job with and for which my starting salary (and possibly long-term earning potential?) will be significantly lower. I don't know why the realization that PA school would've been the smartest option is just now hitting me.

My (retrospective) thought process is going like this now: kicked out of AA school --> must still pursue some sort of professional degree so I can have a career and be bona fide --> PAs are still in demand, work everywhere, make good money for the time investment in school --> I have already demonstrated that I can do well in the didactic PA school courses --> at my age, need to do something that won't take too much time/money to complete --> PA school is most sensible option at this point.

Why was I too stupid to realize this back during the spring and summer? I guess some of us are simply destined to learn the hard way.