The Most Ridiculously Expensive Dental Schools Thread

[umbtoothfairy]

Yeah, all that does is make things worse for us. The stafford loans (subsidized) are limited. Grad Plus loans, are unlimited, and at a higher rate than Stafford loans. You can borrow any amount of money for education in today's world. That's the problem.

@Incis0r stafford loans are capped at 40500 per year with a max lifetime amount as well. So you either need a grant, health professions loan, outside funding, or to fund the difference via a PLUS loan

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[Panis et Circenses]

@Incis0r stafford loans are capped at 40500 per year with a max lifetime amount as well. So you either need a grant, health professions loan, outside funding, or to fund the difference via a PLUS loan

YEP! What I've been saying this whole time is that GRAD PLUS loans are not capped. Students take out two types of loans. Stafford loans (up to 40,500 per year.. But this number changes every year). These loans are subsidized (thus at a lower rate). AFTER you have exhausted the maximum amount of Stafford loans, then you take out Grad Plus loans. These are unlimited. You also have to pay them back with a higher interest rate because they are unsubsidized. I had a heyday discussing all this information in financial aid portion of my interviews. Yuck.. Lol

 

[umbtoothfairy]

I think the underlying problem is that there are too many damn people going to college, and there's not enough jobs in this country. Hopefully this is a problem that a certain politician can fix right now. I was reading many articles a few days ago.. People used to be able to go to Detroit, get a job in car manufacturing. With that job, and their wife staying at home, they could buy a house and pay it off in a few years, buy a vacation home next to a lake somewhere, own a few cars, and they didn't even have to go to college to achieve that lifestyle. Things are so different nowadays. You can hardly even get a job with a college degree. If you do decide to become a professional (dentist), you have to spend nearly a decade of your life paying other people to do so.

Thats because most jobs w/o college education were unionized. Unions fought for fair wages and even those not in the union got benefits. I would personally prefer we have an educated country. It comes down to the older generation not retiring at the right age and not sharing the wealth. They rarely gave our generation the same opportunities they received.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Thats because most jobs w/o college education were unionized. Unions fought for fair wages and even those not in the union got benefits. I would personally prefer we have an educated country. It comes down to the older generation not retiring at the right age and not sharing the wealth. They rarely gave our generation the same opportunities they received.

I would greatly prefer that we have an employed country. I think companies need to negotiate with unions. Were companies going bankrupt with unions? I don't know, probably not. When they outsourced, the only people that win is those who OWN the companies. SO corporate companies make a killing (but only the few that are in charge), while the rest of the people suffer because of unemployment. If you don't believe me hitch a train to Detroit. See the consequences of job loss due to outsourcing.

 

[umbtoothfairy]

I would greatly prefer that we have an employed country. I think companies need to negotiate with unions. Were companies going bankrupt with unions? I don't know, probably not. When they outsourced, the only people that win is those who OWN the companies. SO corporate companies make a killing (but only the few that are in charge), while the rest of the people suffer because of unemployment. If you don't believe me hitch a train to Detroit. See the consequences of job loss due to outsourcing.

Dude, I live in Baltimore. Believe me when I say I see both sides haha. It's terrible for everyone, but to go back to the main topic: student debt, especially dental student debt, is crippling. Reiterating it affects who decides to go to dental school and thus the communities we serve, even whether to get married, have kids, buy a house, specialize, avoid corporate dentistry, etc.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Dude, I live in Baltimore. Believe me when I say I see both sides haha. It's terrible for everyone, but to go back to the main topic: student debt, especially dental student debt, is crippling. Reiterating it affects who decides to go to dental school and thus the communities we serve, even whether to get married, have kids, buy a house, specialize, avoid corporate dentistry, etc.

For sure man.

 

[distressstudent]

If I didn't go to dental school I'd probably choose engineering. It's one of the few majors where a bachelors is sufficient...for now. Biomedical engineering is huge for any healthcare field.


Army HPSP

Given the opportunity to restart I would jump at software engineering in a heart beat. This is coming from a person on HPSP too.

There's a reason most of the folks on /r/financialindependence are software engineerers. Its because they are the only ones that can accumulate enough assets to retire early. Healthcare professionals arent just paying the price tag but also four more years of lost income. Getting gutted in more than one way.

Bioengineering is good too. I don't know any bioengineerers that can't find jobs as long as they are willing to relocate. Know where the industries are... I doubt Kansas has any firms that employ bioengineerers.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Here's another school here..
The GREAT school of Marquette.

For in-state tuition: 50,000 per year.
Fees vary per year.
Living Costs: Assumed to be $1,100 per month
Interest on loans: 6%
Given that information, here's the cost:

D1: $94,875.14
D2: $85,943.72
D3: $75,112.66
D4: $67,681.00

Total In-State Cost at Marquette: $323,612.52

For out of state students, the only variable that changes is tuition costs (at $58,660 per year).
Out-of-state total cost at Marquette: $363,769.74

 

[blablabla1]

Here's another school here..
The GREAT school of Marquette.

For in-state tuition: 50,000 per year.
Fees vary per year.
Living Costs: Assumed to be $1,100 per month
Interest on loans: 6%
Given that information, here's the cost:

D1: $94,875.14
D2: $85,943.72
D3: $75,112.66
D4: $67,681.00

Total In-State Cost at Marquette: $323,612.52

For out of state students, the only variable that changes is tuition costs (at $58,660 per year).
Out-of-state total cost at Marquette: $363,769.74

Bad deal for in staters, good for out of staters

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Bad deal for in staters, good for out of staters

Yep. But it is technically a private school, so in-staters should be happy they get any type of tuition cut.

 

[schmoob]

I am passionate about reducing student loan debt, Panis. I respect you for your efforts too.

But I'm not going to vote for the federal government to gain the powers to restrict how much private businesses (dental schools) can charge for their services. That sets up a dangerous precedent of regulation that I will vote no to every single time. What if the government later says "You cannot charge more than $10 for a filling?"

Now, if you want to cap how much federal loans the government will offer, that is something I can get behind. Less federal loan amount available = students can't pay for the expensive schools = school forced to lower prices to stay open or go out of business.

I agree with you, but unfortunately with that reduced cost the funds will have to come from elsewhere. Some possible examples:
-Increased clinic fee schedule. This can impact patient flow and treatment plan acceptance, which impacts curriculum.
-Reduced spending on materials. This impacts clinic & lab. Stuff will get older, breaks etc. All with a reduced budget for replacement.
-Payroll cuts. Here you may have reduced administrative support due to layoffs, or lower quality support due to employee turnover. Most importantly, many good clinical instructors may not be willing to take a paycut. Why get even less pay after already being in academia? This of course would also impact training.

The money has to come from somewhere. Just because State schools charge less does not mean that their costs are significantly different. They get funding from the State government, not to mention the many tax benefits of being a public entity.
Don't quote me on this, but if I were to take some educated guesses, Private universities do not receive these types of subsidies. They are likely required to pay into whichever State/local municipality they are located in. So while the public schools are receiving tax funding, the private universities are paying taxes to the state. Now that I think about it, it's kind of cyclical; the taxes the private schools are paying fund the State's public school. This of course is all dependent on not having a Nonprofit designation.
Another possibility to consider is that it may price out many applicants; catering more to a Pay-To-Play population of aspiring dentists, instead of being merit-based. I would also take the educated guess that the number of international applicants who matriculate would go up significantly. They are not eligible for federal loans, but thats not stopping them because there is currently no shortage of international applicants.
I can't speculate what would/wouldn't happen if federal loans were capped, I'm just trying to illustrate that there are lots of possibilites to consider besides simply a supply/demand based model of cost inflation.

But again, I absolutely agree with you regarding the dangerous precedent of government restriction on fees and services. It would be catastrophic.

 

[schmoob]

Thats because most jobs w/o college education were unionized. Unions fought for fair wages and even those not in the union got benefits. I would personally prefer we have an educated country. It comes down to the older generation not retiring at the right age and not sharing the wealth. They rarely gave our generation the same opportunities they received.

Labor unions were a product of their time. They were necessary then, but I don't think there is a place for them anymore in today's workforce.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

I agree with you, but unfortunately with that reduced cost the funds will have to come from elsewhere. Some possible examples:
-Increased clinic fee schedule. This can impact patient flow and treatment plan acceptance, which impacts curriculum.
-Reduced spending on materials. This impacts clinic & lab. Stuff will get older, breaks etc. All with a reduced budget for replacement.
-Payroll cuts. Here you may have reduced administrative support due to layoffs, or lower quality support due to employee turnover. Most importantly, many good clinical instructors may not be willing to take a paycut. Why get even less pay after already being in academia? This of course would also impact training.

The money has to come from somewhere. Just because State schools charge less does not mean that their costs are significantly different. They get funding from the State government, not to mention the many tax benefits of being a public entity.
Don't quote me on this, but if I were to take some educated guesses, Private universities do not receive these types of subsidies. They are likely required to pay into whichever State/local municipality they are located in. So while the public schools are receiving tax funding, the private universities are paying taxes to the state. Now that I think about it, it's kind of cyclical; the taxes the private schools are paying fund the State's public school. This of course is all dependent on not having a Nonprofit designation.
Another possibility to consider is that it may price out many applicants; catering more to a Pay-To-Play population of aspiring dentists, instead of being merit-based. I would also take the educated guess that the number of international applicants who matriculate would go up significantly. They are not eligible for federal loans, but thats not stopping them because there is currently no shortage of international applicants.
I can't speculate what would/wouldn't happen if federal loans were capped, I'm just trying to illustrate that there are lots of possibilites to consider besides simply a supply/demand based model of cost inflation.

But again, I absolutely agree with you regarding the dangerous precedent of government restriction on fees and services. It would be catastrophic.

I haven't been to dental school yet, but when I do I GUARANTEE you I can find areas where they could cut costs. There has got to be a reason why costs have soared astoronimally in the last 10-15 years. Somebody is making lots of money off our backs. Why does tuition rise as much as 5% per year at some schools? Surely inflation doesn't rise by that much

 

[schmoob]

I haven't been to dental school yet, but when I do I GUARANTEE you I can find areas where they could cut costs. There has got to be a reason why costs have soared astoronimally in the last 10-15 years. Somebody is making lots of money off our backs. Why does tuition rise as much as 5% per year at some schools? Surely inflation doesn't rise by that much

Yes, but my point was more than just cutting costs. They will lose something by doing that, or there will be an impact of some sort. Reducing tuition costs by that much would likely create a series of events that go beyond simply a lower cost to attend the school.
Nothing is stopping them from cutting those costs you're talking about now; it would actually increase their profit margin by doing so. But if it's there, there's probably a reason for it.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Yes, but my point was more than just cutting costs. They will lose something by doing that, or there will be an impact of some sort. Reducing tuition costs by that much would likely create a series of events that go beyond simply a lower cost to attend the school.
Nothing is stopping them from cutting those costs you're talking about now; it would actually increase their profit margin by doing so. But if it's there, there's probably a reason for it.

Old data, it only goes to 2006. But you can't tell me there's nothing the schools can do to lower costs. What were they doing in 1990 that made it so cheap? They graduated competent dentists that are practicing just fine in today's world. There HAS to be ways to cut costs (and I mean to students), without affecting the competency of newly graduated dentists.

 

[schmoob]

Dude, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. In 1990 demand for dentists was up. Demand, inflation, sophistication in infrastructure, etc..
Yes, those alone do not justify the proportional response.
Again, what I am saying is that if costs for students were cut, schools would have to cut some of their expenses. And if there are expenses that are able to get cut, then they would've been cut already.
If you are talking about cutting profits, then who's profits will get cut? The money will come from somewhere, and when it does there will be another response.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Dude, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. In 1990 demand for dentists was up. Demand, inflation, sophistication in infrastructure, etc..
Yes, those alone do not justify the proportional response.
Again, what I am saying is that if costs for students were cut, schools would have to cut some of their expenses. And if there are expenses that are able to get cut, then they would've been cut already.
If you are talking about cutting profits, then who's profits will get cut? The money will come from somewhere, and when it does there will be another response.

Yeah I this duscussion keeps going circular hah. It just feels so wrong to me that anyone would exploit a vulnerable student so badly. But hey if no one opposes the small, imperceptible rises in tuition each year why would they stop now right?

 

[htdt]

Bad deal for in staters, good for out of staters

Not necessarily a bad deal. I believe that IS for Marquette is not that different from IS in other public schools in the Midwest. I would love to be accepted here.

 

[Likkriue]

Says fees vary, what about instruments? The cost would be much higher depending on how much instruments are.

I'm guessing it's cause for the fourth year you won't be buying new instruments etc. so I would tack on at least 15-20k for fees.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Says fees vary, what about instruments? The cost would be much higher depending on how much instruments are.

I'm guessing it's cause for the fourth year you won't be buying new instruments etc. so I would tack on at least 15-20k for fees.

I've lumped the instrument fees with the rest of the fees

 

[Likkriue]

Ohhh gotcha. It's weird to me how instrument fees start as low as 4K at some schools and then all the way to 10k at others.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Ohhh gotcha. It's weird to me how instrument fees start as low as 4K at some schools and then all the way to 10k at others.

Yeah its weird. Plus some years they charge like 10k for instrument fees, and other years it's like 1k of 2k. That's why I said the fees vary per year.

 

[distressstudent]

Nurses have their unions and they make near six figure starting in North cal. Doesn't even have to be the bay area. Example, Sacramento. Work a little harder and you're looking at salaries compaeable to dentists without all the opportunity costs

On the other hand, organized dentistry is selling out their own professions with new schools and protecting corporations

 

[hh212]

Can someone do a calculation for the total cost of MWU-IL please?

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Can someone do a calculation for the total cost of MWU-IL please?

Here we go!

Annual Tuition: $72,995
Fees vary by year (Between $13,149 to $16,451)
Estimated Living costs: $1300 per month, or $15,600 per year
Interest calculated at 6% compounded annually

Total:
D1: $132,618.16
D2: $121,178.73
D3: $114,319.56
D4: $107,848.64

Grand total: $475,965.09

In pure Midwestern style, they gouge their students of everything they aren't worth.

By the way, this is an undershoot, because their website says to expect a 4%-7% annual increase in tuition.

 

[Incis0r]

In pure Midwestern style, they gouge their students of everything they aren't worth.

Ahahahaha I love you, my brother.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Ahahahaha I love you, my brother.

 

[Incis0r]

Seriously, that was so unexpected....cracked me up. The kids a few couches away are looking puzzled at why I'm chuckling.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Seriously, that was so unexpected....cracked me up. The kids a few couches away are looking puzzled at why I'm chuckling.

Hahah, thanks homie. And that meme!

 

[nebuchadnezzar90]

Can you do one for Louisville OOS?

Thanks in advance.

 

[blablabla1]

Can you do one for Louisville OOS?

Thanks in advance.

It's already there

 

[DMD the Dream]

Will anyone do a calculation for rutgers in state??

 

[FloorMatt]

Will anyone do a calculation for rutgers in state??

and rutgers out of state for one year

 

[SkinnyT]

All I can say is: rural underserved areas. Go where no one wants to go. Where the demand is.

 

[Toothout]

do you or anyone else know if they do scholarships? so far this is my only acceptance

Is that penn? If yes, there's the deans scholarship for anyone with a 3.7+ undergrad gpa

 

[Toothout]

wait, no, what am I saying...forget that- most state schools themselves are ~$300K now. Most privates are around $450K. Let's take a straight average....so my very messy math gives us $375K average debt.

I'll graduate with 200k from dental and 20k from undergrad.

 

[Toothout]

@RYost234 you need something like this. @Incis0r might help

 

[Incis0r]

@RYost234 you need something like this. @Incis0r might help

Not that good at it myself.

 

[Toothout]

Say what now? What is Incis0r doing?

You great calculating COA he needs Illinois state schools COA

 

[Toothout]

Here we go!

Annual Tuition: $72,995
Fees vary by year (Between $13,149 to $16,451)
Estimated Living costs: $1300 per month, or $15,600 per year
Interest calculated at 6% compounded annually

Total:
D1: $132,618.16
D2: $121,178.73
D3: $114,319.56
D4: $107,848.64

Grand total: $475,965.09

In pure Midwestern style, they gouge their students of everything they aren't worth.

By the way, this is an undershoot, because their website says to expect a 4%-7% annual increase in tuition.

@RYost234 this is for MWU-IL

 

[Incis0r]

You great calculating COA he needs Illinois state schools COA

Haha.

 

[Toothout]

I'm not a damn calculator

I know nothing about interest lol.
I usually just add the 4 years and then use the online calcs to find the final thing, but I couldn't find the COA for either school.

 

[Incis0r]

I know nothing about interest lol.
I usually just add the 4 years and then use the online calcs to find the final thing, but I couldn't find the COA for either school.

Me neither.

 

[Toothout]

You think I do? I just toss on an extra $100K to scare people - lots of fun

That's a lot! My interest is only ~30k if I get 6%

 

[Incis0r]

That's a lot! My interest is only ~30k if I get 6%

Congratulations.

 

[Toothout]

Congratulations. I hate you.

Lol why? Haha

 

[Incis0r]

Lol why? Haha

Congrats

 

[distressstudent]

More fun on DT

Some financial adviser broke down calculations comparing your average college joe making 50k a year vs a corporate dentist vs private owner dentist. His conclusion is that it would take 72 years to break even for the corporate dentist and 30 years for the private owner.

You can find his post under the Dental Student section part of DT

Weird he doesnt publish out of DT though since he's targeting pre-dentals

 

[RYost234]

CallMeDoct Incis0r
Thank you both!
I messaged Panis et Circenses and he helped me find the COA for my two instate public schools!

 

[dentaldreams2021]

Can anyone do a COA for UIC?