At the same time, I believe right now, the best way to preventing yourself from being a victim of police brutality (aside from changing the police which is likely a long term process) is to just do what they say, no sudden movements, speak as little as possible (just answer the questions), and stay away from breaking the law.
While there are exceptions, i noticed that in most cases of fatal injury, one of these 4 suggestions were violated regardless of what color you are. If you are under influence of drugs, committed some form of crime, not following commands of police officer, yelling/cursing at police in aggressive manner, etc. Obviously not saying police can use excess force but while that is hopefully being corrected, I think everyone can benefit from doing these things. At least that's what I do every time i have an encounter with an officer
At the same time, I believe right now, the best way to preventing yourself from being a victim of police brutality (aside from changing the police which is likely a long term process) is to just do what they say, no sudden movements, speak as little as possible (just answer the questions), and stay away from breaking the law.
While there are exceptions, i noticed that in most cases of fatal injury, one of these 4 suggestions were violated regardless of what color you are. If you are under influence of drugs, committed some form of crime, not following commands of police officer, yelling/cursing at police in aggressive manner, etc. Obviously not saying police can use excess force but while that is hopefully being corrected, I think everyone can benefit from doing these things. At least that's what I do every time i have an encounter with an officer
Agreed. What you said isn't condoning police behavior (and the system that let's them do whatever they want and for the courts to figure it out later) and I hope no one takes it that way. It's important to teach young people to just STFU and go to the station if they find themselves already speaking to the police. Arguing once they already have you in their sights is going to end poorly and cannot ever end well. No point in fighting... which we see repeatedly.
There is a conversation to be had as to why all these people are fighting in frustration at harassment and prejudice but if one is trying to save their lives it's best to just STFU and comply.
At the same time, I believe right now, the best way to preventing yourself from being a victim of police brutality (aside from changing the police which is likely a long term process) is to just do what they say, no sudden movements, speak as little as possible (just answer the questions), and stay away from breaking the law.
Yep, best thing to do if you're a citizen (especially if you're brown or black) is act like a scared little puppet when you're around some ill-trained dope with an itchy trigger finger. Yes sir / no sir. Don't argue, get out of the car, consent to a search immediately.....you know.....don't assert your Constitutional rights against the discount militarized officer whose salary you're paying. Definitely will increase your chances of making it out of the encounter alive.
e: Good article published last year. Explains some of the nuance that has to go in to interpreting some of these recent sociological studies on race, police, and crime:
Yep, best thing to do if you're a citizen (especially if you're brown or black) is act like a scared little puppet when you're around some ill-trained dope with an itchy trigger finger. Yes sir / no sir. Don't argue, get out of the car, consent to a search immediately.....you know.....don't assert your Constitutional rights against the discount militarized officer whose salary you're paying. Definitely will increase your chances of making it out of the encounter alive.
e: Good article published last year. Explains some of the nuance that has to go in to interpreting some of these recent sociological studies on race, police, and crime:
There are roughly 5 million police-initiated contacts with the public every year. About 1000 of those encounters (0.02%) end in lethal force. The fact that such a small percentage (since you don’t like absolute numbers) causes you operate under the bias that the cop who stopped you for speeding (or applied the AED if you are in cardiac arrest) is a dope or has an itchy trigger finger is why the problem of policing America is going nowhere fast.
Imagine if hospital administrators or CMS applied such a microscope to physician errors. The bitching would never end.
There are roughly 5 million police-initiated contacts with the public every year. About 1000 of those encounters (0.02%) end in lethal force. The fact that such a small percentage (since you don’t like absolute numbers) causes you operate under the bias that the cop who stopped you for speeding (or applied the AED if you are in cardiac arrest) is a dope or has an itchy trigger finger is why the problem of policing America is going nowhere fast.
Imagine if hospital administrators or CMS applied such a microscope to physician errors. The bitching would never end.
You do realize that lethal force isn't the only negative possible outcome of interacting with police, right? Even as a white guy in a nice area, I have had my share of bad interactions with a local police force that has been called to be disbanded before all these riots.
What is your goal in this convo? Everyone knows not all cops are bad. Everyone should also know that you don't get to pick which cop interacts with you on a given day and that the bad ones don't have a bad cop sticker on them so people should probably treat them like dangerous animals by avoiding them as much as possible.
You do realize that lethal force isn't the only negative possible outcome of interacting with police, right? Even as a white guy in a nice area, I have had my share of bad interactions with a local police force that has been called to be disbanded before all these riots.
What is your goal in this convo? Everyone knows not all cops are bad. Everyone should also know that you don't get to pick which cop interacts with you on a given day and that the bad ones don't have a bad cop sticker on them so people should probably treat them like dangerous animals by avoiding them as much as possible.
My goal is for us as a society and as a community in this thread to have reasonable expectations of the police. For example, expecting them to control crime in disproportionately violent communities, and then crucifying them as inherently racist for disproportionate use of force outcomes is not what I’d call reasonable.
I also felt a need to provide a contrary opinion to some of the group think regarding where we are as a society and how to make things better. For example, approaching the problem from the assumption that a even significant minority are trigger happy dopes is unhelpful.
There are roughly 5 million police-initiated contacts with the public every year. About 1000 of those encounters (0.02%) end in lethal force. The fact that such a small percentage (since you don’t like absolute numbers) causes you operate under the bias that the cop who stopped you for speeding (or applied the AED if you are in cardiac arrest) is a dope or has an itchy trigger finger is why the problem of policing America is going nowhere fast.
Imagine if hospital administrators or CMS applied such a microscope to physician errors. The bitching would never end.
It takes 3 yrs of training to become a police officer in Norway. It takes 3 yrs in Finland. It takes 2 yrs in Iceland. 2 yrs in Germany. 18m-2 yrs in Spain, up to 2 yrs in Switzerland.
How long is the average length of training for police officers in the US? About 840 hours, with some states being significantly shorter than that.
I spent 4 yrs in medical school, 4 yrs in residency, and 1 yr in fellowship before I could make life and death decisions without direct or close-by indirect supervision, so you’re goddamn right I have a bit of a superiority complex when the average yokel with a high school education and a training length shorter than a barber can use lethal force against the public with near impunity.
Also, do you even work in a hospital? The amount of BS I already deal with CMS regs, JCAHO compliance, AAORN, EMR bugs/chart completion, and our hospital wide “safety” and peer review reporting systems (which people use to report anything ranging from a perceived personal slight all the way to an accidental spinal digoxin administration) has already reached a microscopic level. Unfortunately, I understand the impetus as long as the prevalence and cost of medical errors remains this high
It takes 3 yrs of training to become a police officer in Norway. It takes 3 yrs in Finland. It takes 2 yrs in Iceland. 2 yrs in Germany. 18m-2 yrs in Spain, up to 2 yrs in Switzerland.
How long is the average length of training for police officers in the US? About 840 hours.
I spent 4 yrs in medical school, 4 yrs in residency, and 1 yr in fellowship before I could make life and death decisions without direct or close-by indirect supervision, so you’re goddamn right I have a bit of a superiority complex when the average yokel with a high school education and a training length shorter than a barber can use lethal force against the public with near impunity.
Also, do you even work in a hospital? The amount of BS I already deal with CMS regs, JCAHO compliance, AAORN, EMR bugs/chart completion, and our hospital wide “safety” and peer review reporting systems (which people use to report anything ranging from a perceived personal slight all the way to an accidental spinal digoxin administration) has already reached a microscopic level.
I assume that 840 hours is the length of training in an academy (your link is dead)? If so, that is misleading as 80% of police in America have at least 2 years of education beyond high school in addition to their time in the academy; roughly 1/3 have 4-year degrees. Of the 20% without post-high school education, the vast majority have at least 4 years of active duty military experience (possibly not a good thing in the post 9/11 era as my personal experience leads me to believe they are opposing skill sets at times).
Yes, you can get a job as a cop in Bumpass, OK with just a HS education and time in the academy, again you are hung up on a very small fraction of America’s police.
I was once a cop (local and federal). Now, I’m an intensivist - of course I work in a hospital.
I assume that 840 hours is the length of training in an academy (your link is dead)? If so, that is misleading as 80% of police in America have at least 2 years of education beyond high school in addition to their time in the academy; roughly 1/3 have 4-year degrees. Of the 20% without post-high school education, the vast majority have at least 4 years of active duty military experience (possibly not a good thing in the post 9/11 era as my personal experience leads me to believe they are opposing skill sets at times).
Yes, you can get a job as a cop in Bumpass, OK with just a HS education and time in the academy, again you are hung up on a very small fraction of America’s police.
I was once a cop (local and federal). Now, I’m an intensivist - of course I work in a hospital.
No, what’s misleading is you trying to claim that the 2 years of education beyond high school (education in what, precisely?) somehow substantively adds to their qualification to use lethal force in a policing capacity.
Our CRNAs try to do the same thing when they pretend their 1-2 years of critical care or ED nursing spent following physicians’ orders somehow adds substantively to their education and thus to their ability to practice anesthesia independently.
Stunning....only 40 hrs of basic training on community policing. I’ve literally had hangovers last longer than that
You know what else I don’t like? Numbers provided without any context. You think 1000+ police fatalities a year is an insignificant percentage? Let’s take a look at the per capita numbers internationally
No, what’s misleading is you trying to claim that the 2 years of education beyond high school (education in what, precisely?) somehow substantively adds to their qualification to use lethal force in a policing capacity.
Most of the 2-year associates degrees are in some form of basic criminal justice (often leading to a BLE certificate which is the roughly 600-hour curriculum that your reference cites). I did the local cop gig for 3 years and do not recall any other popular curriculum 25 years ago. Moreover, I’d say that that degree program is actually the most consistently applicable to street level law enforcement and extensively covers use of force.
The problem comes with those with a bachelors degree. Here is where you may have a very valid point as, to the best of my knowledge, there is no data repository for what these degrees entail. While some may have a BS in LE Science, I strongly suspect this is the minority as there are probably a ton of BAs in English and History who might as well have spent the 4 years at a bar. We just don’t know. Moreover, I fear that some agencies may be incentivized to hire a candidate with a BA in basket weaving over a better trained but less educated candidate with 2-year associates degree in criminal justice because it looks good to city counselcritters to say that X percentage of the force is college educated.
So, the premise of you argument certainly has some validity - America’s cops are not trained to be the country’s law enforcement, social worker, nanny, or substance abuse counselor. However, they are also not necessarily poorly trained dopes who should be issued 1 bullet in their shirt pocket. The truth is somewhere in between and probably reflects the overall sophistication of our society.
I'll repeat it again for you. Your appeal to raw numbers, i.e. (it was ONLY "20") is completely besides the point that those in favor of police reform are trying to make. It's as dumb as when the president says COVID ONLY killed 100,000 vs 1-2 mil so mission accomplished. There is a civil and moral issue that stands completely separate from how many tickmarks you want to put in ledger, but it's not surprising that many don't get that. It's also notable that you're highlighting the nominal figures from 2019 instead of 2015- without also highlighting that the rate decline in the last few years could be an anomaly given the sample size or perhaps the fact that something in 2014 sparked the impetus to reform police tactics. Furthermore, you should stop leaning so heavily on how nominally 'few' people have been killed by police when:
--------------------------------------------- The Washington Post began tracking the shootings after Michael Brown, an unarmed black man, was killed in 2014 by police in Ferguson, Mo. A Post investigation found that the FBI’s tracking system undercounted fatal police shootings by about half, because of the fact that reporting by police departments is voluntary and many departments fail to do so. The ongoing Post project relies on news accounts, social media postings and police a reports.
The ongoing Post project has found that police have shot and killed 3,309 people since 2015, or more than twice as many fatal shootings per year as the average reported by the FBI. Of those killed, 231, or 7 percent, were not armed with guns, knives or other objects that could be used as weapons at the time of the shootings, according to the data.
The actual numbers you posted aren't the Mickey Mouse part (although they might be since only counting fatalities likely significantly undercounts instances of non-fatal inappropriate force)- it's the interpretation of the statistics to make disingenuous points like the WSJ author did. Do you acknowledge that a police officer is also more likely to get killed by an armed white male than an unarmed white male is by a police officer? If the answer is yes, then you'll finally understand the disingenuousness of trying to use the "18x" figure to rhetorically show how the poor widdle heavily armed police officers are the ones for whom we should reallly be afraid.
A couple things with the study you quoted:
1. It takes only one year into account: 2015
2. Much of their data makes no goddamn sense at all
That table shows that 'black civilian armed' has a lower odds ratio than 'black civilian unarmed.' I mean, if that's what this study was actually demonstrating it would certainly help my thesis but not even I think the result from that table is a reflection of reality. More likely, what it shows is the problem with using multivariate regression from a limited data set to retroactively answer the authors' question of "What factors predict the race of a person fatally shot by police?”
In fact, after I saw that table, I realized that someone had actually written a letter to the editor about the study:
---------------------------------------------
"
A recent PNAS article reports “no evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparities across [fatal] shootings” by police officers (ref. 1, p. 15877). This claim is based on the results of a regression model that suggested “a person fatally shot by police was 6.67 times less likely (odds ratio [OR] = 0.15 [0.09, 0.27]) to be Black than White” (ref. 1, p. 15880). The article also claims the results “do not depend on which predictors are used” (ref. 1, p. 15881). These claims are misleading because the reported results apply only to a subset of victims and do not control for the fact that we would expect a higher number of White victims simply because the majority of US citizens are White.
The published odds ratio of 0.15 is based on a regression model that made the intercept correspond to a county with 4 times more White (50%) than Black (12%) citizens. In addition, the intercept of the model corresponds to a country where White homicide rates equal 1) Black homicide rates and 2) Hispanic homicide rates and where victims are 3) average age (36.71 y) and White and Black victims are equally likely to 4) have mental health problems, 5) be suicidal, 6) be armed, and 7) attack an officer. We found that including suicidal as a predictor had the strongest effect on the intercept, which doubled the odds of the victim being White (OR = 0.24 vs. 0.49). In contrast, adjusting only for differences in Black and White homicide rates left the intercept unchanged (OR = 0.48 vs. 49). Thus, the main contribution of the regression analysis is to show that that the odds of a victim being White double when the percentage of suicidal victims increases from 11% in the actual population to 50% in a hypothetical population. The fact that older suicidal victims are disproportionally more likely to be White shows that not all victims of lethal use of force are violent criminals.
Although use of force with citizens who suffer from mental health problems is an important issue, another important issue is use of force for young, unarmed, mentally healthy (nonsuicidal) men. To examine racial disparities in this group, we specified an alternative model that focused on young (age 20 y), unarmed male victims that showed no signs of mental health problems and were not suicidal in a county with equal proportions of Black and White citizens. The intercept of this model suggested that victims with these characteristics are 13.67 times more likely to be Black than White, 95% confidence interval = 6.65, 28.13 (Racial Disparity in Fatal Use of Force).
The stark contrast between the published finding and our finding contradicts Johnson et al.’s (1) claims that their results hold across subgroups of victims. Contrary to this claim, their data are entirely consistent with the public perception that young male victims of fatal use of force are disproportionally Black. Importantly, neither the original finding nor our finding addresses the causes of racial disparities among victims of deadly use of force. Our results merely confirm other recent findings that racial disparities exist and that they are particularly large for young males (2).
There is widespread concern about racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings and that these disparities reflect discrimination by White officers. Existing databases of fatal shootings lack information about officers, and past analytic approaches have made it difficult to assess the...
www.pnas.org
---------------------------------------------
Another bonus letter to the editor highlighting the Cesario study's inaccuracy. This one wasn't published unfortunately but it explains the statistical problem in simple terms.
---------------------------------------------
But say for a moment you didn't just cherry-pick one study that had serious methodological problems, let's see what the preponderance of the evidence shows (or at least skews toward):
---------
A 2018 study in the American Journal of Public Health found that black and Hispanic men were far more likely to be killed by police than white men.[102] A 2019 study by Roland G. Fryer, Jr. found that while there are no racial differences in lethal use of police force, blacks and Hispanics are significantly more likely to experience non-lethal use of force.[103] A 2019 paper by Princeton University political scientists disputed the findings by Fryer, saying that if police had a higher threshold for stopping whites, this might mean that the whites, Hispanics and blacks in Fryer's data are not similar.[104] Reports by the Department of Justice have also found that police officers in Baltimore, Maryland, and Ferguson, Missouri, systemically stop, search (in some cases strip-searching) and harass black residents.[105][106] A January 2017 report by the DOJ also found that the Chicago Police Department had "unconstitutionally engaged in a pattern of excessive and deadly force" and that police "have no regard for the sanctity of life when it comes to people of color."[14] A 2018 study found that police officers more likely to use lethal force on blacks.[107] A 2019 study in the Journal of Politics found that police officers were more likely to use lethal force on blacks, but that this "most likely driven by higher rates of police contact among African Americans rather than racial differences in the circumstances of the interaction and officer bias in the application of lethal force."[108] A 2019 study in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that blacks and American Indian/Alaska indigenous people are more likely to be killed by police than whites, and that Latino men are more likely to be killed than white men.[109] According to the study, "for young men of color, police use of force is among the leading causes of death."[109] A separate Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences study found that there were no racial disparities in police shootings by white police;[110] the findings of the study were disputed by Princeton University scholars who argued that the study's method and dataset made it impossible for the authors to reach that conclusion.[111][112] Following the criticism by the Princeton scholars, the authors of the original PNAS study corrected their significance statement to read, "As the proportion of White officers in a fatal officer-involved shooting increased, a person fatally shot was not more likely to be of a racial minority."[113] A study by Texas A&M University economists, which rectified some problems of selection bias identified in the literature above, found that white police officers were more likely to use force and guns than black police, and that white officers were five times as likely to use gun force in predominantly black neighborhoods.[114] A 2020 American Political Science Review study estimated that 39% of uses of force by police against blacks and Hispanics in New York City was racially discriminatory.[115] A 2020 study in the journal Nature found that black drivers were stopped more often than white drivers, and that the threshold by which police decided to search black and Hispanic drivers was lower than that for whites (judging by the rate at which contraband was found in searches).[12]
Analysis of more than 20 million traffic stops in North Carolina showed that blacks were more than twice as likely as whites to be pulled over by police for traffic stops, and that blacks were more likely to be searched following the stop. There were no significant difference in the likelihood that Hispanics would be pulled over, but Hispanics were much more likely to be searched following a traffic stop than whites. When the study controlled for searches in high-crime areas, it still found that police disproportionately targeted black individuals. These racial disparities were particularly pronounced for young men. The study found that whites who were searched were more likely to carry contraband than blacks and Hispanics.[127][128]
A 2018 study in the Journal of Empirical Legal Studies found that law enforcement officers in Texas who could charge shoplifters with two types of crimes (one more serious, one less so) due to a vaguely worded statute were more likely to charge blacks and Hispanics with the more serious crime.[129]
A 2019 study, which made use of a dataset of the racial makeup of every U.S. sheriff over a 25-year period, found that "ratio of Black‐to‐White arrests is significantly higher under White sheriffs" and that the effects appear to be "driven by arrests for less‐serious offenses and by targeting Black crime types."[130]
And just think, this is all before we've even approached the inarguable systemic racism that is a part of the criminal justice system once the offenders are actually booked, tried, and sentenced.
My goal is for us as a society and as a community in this thread to have reasonable expectations of the police. For example, expecting them to control crime in disproportionately violent communities, and then crucifying them as inherently racist for disproportionate use of force outcomes is not what I’d call reasonable.
I also felt a need to provide a contrary opinion to some of the group think regarding where we are as a society and how to make things better. For example, approaching the problem from the assumption that a even significant minority are trigger happy dopes is unhelpful.
Would you just listen to the NPR audio about Camden as a former cop and possibly give us "group thinkers" your commentary? Or is not worth your time.
It seems that whatever they did worked to both create a more communal atmosphere and decrease overall crime in that city.
And no matter how small those numbers are that are murdered by police, the fact that they happen in this great country should give you pause. Especially when combined with the chart provide by @vector2 above.
There are apparently ways the cops can "police" these violent neighborhoods that will decrease crime without police thinking they are going into war everyday and attempting to meet their quotas as well.
Again, no one is saying all cops are bad. But there are bad apples in the bunch just like any bunch of other professionals. The fact that there is no accountability up until recently (and only very few have been convicted) should also give you pause.
Most of the 2-year associates degrees are in some form of basic criminal justice (often leading to a BLE certificate which is the roughly 600-hour curriculum that your reference cites). I did the local cop gig for 3 years and do not recall any other popular curriculum 25 years ago. Moreover, I’d say that that degree program is actually the most consistently applicable to street level law enforcement and extensively covers use of force.
The problem comes with those with a bachelors degree. Here is where you may have a very valid point as, to the best of my knowledge, there is no data repository for what these degrees entail. While some may have a BS in LE Science, I strongly suspect this is the minority as there are probably a ton of BAs in English and History who might as well have spent the 4 years at a bar. We just don’t know. Moreover, I fear that some agencies may be incentivized to hire a candidate with a BA in basket weaving over a better trained but less educated candidate with 2-year associates degree in criminal justice because it looks good to city counselcritters to say that X percentage of the force is college educated.
So, the premise of you argument certainly has some validity - America’s cops are not trained to be the country’s law enforcement, social worker, nanny, or substance abuse counselor. However, they are also not necessarily poorly trained dopes who should be issued 1 bullet in their shirt pocket. The truth is somewhere in between and probably reflects the overall sophistication of our society.
There would not be an argument to be had if a 2 yr associates degree in criminal justice (or related field like pre-law or forensics assuming they finish some specific pre-reqs as well) was the national standard, but the BJS reference states that just a small minority (28%) of recruits have 2 yr college as their academy type (I’m not even sure if that means they get an associates or just that that is the institution where they do the coursework). Unfortunately, I live in one of the states that has an atrociously low baseline education level in addition to having one of the most lax requirements for becoming a LEO, not to mention I take call at a L1TC with a busy knife and gun club where I frequently get to hear the ignorant cop peanut gallery as a pt is being brought in, so I absolutely stand by at least my personal experience of how dopey and unqualified the cops are in my area.
The fact that you don’t think the community aspects of their training are as important as the operations/weapons/tactics portion of their training highlights what an a$$-backward country we live in. If you focus solely on teaching cops to be mindless enforcers out on patrol as an occupying force in a foreign land, then I guess it’s no surprise if that’s exactly what we get. Do yourself a favor and study what happened in Camden, NJ.
There would not be an argument to be had if a 2 yr associates degree in criminal justice (or related field like pre-law or forensics assuming they finish some specific pre-reqs as well) was the national standard, but the BJS reference states that just a small minority (28%) of recruits have 2 yr college as their academy type (I’m not even sure if that means they get an associates or just that that is the institution where they do the coursework). Unfortunately, I live in one of the states that has an atrociously low baseline education level in addition to having one of the most lax requirements for becoming a LEO, so I absolutely stand by at least my personal experience of how dopey and unqualified the cops are in my area.
The fact that you don’t think the community aspects of their training are as important as the operations/weapons/tactics portion of their training highlights what an a$$-backward country we live in. If you focus solely on teaching cops to be mindless enforcers out on patrol as an occupying force in a foreign land, then I guess it’s no surprise if that’s exactly what we get. Do yourself a favor and study what happened in Camden, NJ.
The article was referring to the academy type (college vs community college vs agency). Many BLE certificates are offered through community colleges but can also be obtained from 4-year colleges offering bachelors degrees in criminal justice or similar. The article does not discuss or account the training outside of BLE and academies that candidates may have through college coursework. That is the black hole that I referenced in my last post - we know that a significant majority have some form of post-high school education, but how much of that is effective training is unknown since America does not have a national police force that does community policing like the countries you referenced.
I am already familiar with the Camden experience and completely agree with what Officer Thompson describes In his NPR interview on 6/8. Moreover, I think that the Camden model of rebuilding the police can be very effective for highly dysfunctional agencies. I also support smaller scale versions of this approach to more functional departments to get more community engagement. However, the Camden experience is not what is expected by the BLM crowd who want to abolish the police. Also, notice that the Minneapolis City Counsel never qualified their desire to rebuild the police force into a more community-friendly agency with their latest lunacy - they wanted to tell pacify a mob with a commitment to disbanding it.
As for what you believe are my opinions on the the relative importance of community training vs. weapons and tactics, I honestly don’t know WTF you are talking about. What you wrote is insane.
There would not be an argument to be had if a 2 yr associates degree in criminal justice (or related field like pre-law or forensics assuming they finish some specific pre-reqs as well) was the national standard, but the BJS reference states that just a small minority (28%) of recruits have 2 yr college as their academy type (I’m not even sure if that means they get an associates or just that that is the institution where they do the coursework). Unfortunately, I live in one of the states that has an atrociously low baseline education level in addition to having one of the most lax requirements for becoming a LEO, not to mention I take call at a L1TC with a busy knife and gun club where I frequently get to hear the ignorant cop peanut gallery as a pt is being brought in, so I absolutely stand by at least my personal experience of how dopey and unqualified the cops are in my area.
The fact that you don’t think the community aspects of their training are as important as the operations/weapons/tactics portion of their training highlights what an a$$-backward country we live in. If you focus solely on teaching cops to be mindless enforcers out on patrol as an occupying force in a foreign land, then I guess it’s no surprise if that’s exactly what we get. Do yourself a favor and study what happened in Camden, NJ.
You make an excellent and timely point with respect to Camden, NJ. I would also like to see the local govt's who have payed lip service to this issue admit to their failures. They too should be held accountable rather than blaming their failures to protect their constituents on institutional racism and the police. Camden used to be a serious knife and gun club, at one time having one of the highest murder rates per capita in the nation. Their success is not a secret and cities should examine their success and see how it might apply to theirs. They should also be able to answer why the hell it took them so long, or get voted out. Accountability.
The article was referring to the academy type (college vs community college vs agency). Many BLE certificates are offered through community colleges but can also be obtained from 4-year colleges offering bachelors degrees in criminal justice or similar. The article does not discuss or account the training outside of BLE and academies that candidates may have through college coursework. That is the black hole that I referenced in my last post - we know that a significant majority have some form of post-high school education, but how much of that is effective training is unknown since America does not have a national police force that does community policing like the countries you referenced.
Great, so we can at least agree that we lag behind training length as compared to other countries and standardization is needed here so that we don’t have states where manicurists have more hours of actual professional training than cops.
I am already familiar with the Camden experience and completely agree with what Officer Thompson describes In his NPR interview on 6/8. Moreover, I think that the Camden model of rebuilding the police can be very effective for highly dysfunctional agencies. I also support smaller scale versions of this approach to more functional departments to get more community engagement. However, the Camden experience is not what is expected by the BLM crowd who want to abolish the police. Also, notice that the Minneapolis City Counsel never qualified their desire to rebuild it police force into a more community-friendly agency with their latest lunacy - they wanted to tell the mod that it was committed to disbanding it.
See, this is the problem with discourse today. We both agree that the Camden model works for them and may work for other places. And then you jump straight to focusing on the most extreme take that anyone has taken vis a vis the MNP city council instead of focusing on those on the left who actually have a realistic take, which in turn will harden those on your side to continue with the don’t do anything position. BLM or those in favor of police reform are not a homogeneous group regardless, but looking at what their city council specifically said
—-
“We recognize that we don’t have all the answers about what a police-free future looks like, but our community does. We’re committing to engaging with every willing community member in the City of Minneapolis over the next year to identify what safety looks like for everyone.”
—-
In all likelihood this will end up being a political tactic to get the MPD to play ball with major reform, but at the end of the day they are doing what their constituents voted them in to do. What’s more productive for us is perhaps focusing on what their democratic mayor said.
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“I’ll work relentlessly with Chief (Medaria) Arradondo and alongside community toward deep, structural reform and addressing systemic racism in police culture. And we’re ready to dig in and enact more community-led, public safety strategies on behalf of our city. But I do not support abolishing the Minneapolis Police Department," Frey said in a statement.
—
So quite clearly there are people who want to get things done, and I bet even the MNP city council would play ball if the right concessions from MPD were there, but something tells me that police reform is an idea you honestly have less than zero interest in if you think the most extreme takes are what entirely makes up the opposing side.
As for what you believe are my opinions on the the relative importance of community training vs. weapons and tactics, I honestly don’t know WTF you are talking about. What you wrote is insane.
This is your go-to gimmick, eh chief? You make clear implications like earlier when you implied in response to me that the community training part was logistically impossible or not worthwhile because “America’s cops are not trained to be the country’s law enforcement, social worker, nanny, or substance abuse counselor” with the logical result of that being that weapons/tactics (the ‘how’ of policing instead of the ’why’) will continue to be the primary driving focus............and then you pretend you never made any point like that at all because the literal words from you saying that specifically didn’t appear on the page.
This is your go-to gimmick, eh chief? You make clear implications like earlier when you implied in response to me that the community training part was logistically impossible or not worthwhile because “America’s cops are not trained to be the country’s law enforcement, social worker, nanny, or substance abuse counselor” with the logical result of that being that weapons/tactics (the ‘how’ of policing instead of the ’why’) will continue to be the primary driving focus............and then you pretend you never made any point like that at all because the literal words from you saying that specifically didn’t appear on the page.
Wrong chief - those actually were not my words. What I said about the police being unable to be the nation’s nanny and social worker was a paraphrase of Dallas Chief David Brown.
He was right. Do you think his priorities are off too?
You appear to have a problem where you take someone’s statements and assign the worst possible meaning. It’s an internet thing I’m sure, but your logical assumptions are all ****ed up.
They too should be held accountable in addition to blaming their failures to protect their constituents in part on institutional racism and the police..
I don’t care who actually said it or who you were paraphrasing since we’re not talking about the context of what he was saying. You replied to my post about community policing with that one line, and it had a clear implication that community policing is not a concern of yours since cops apparently can’t or won’t learn about the other sociological aspects of the job they do (after all, they’re not nannies or counselors as you quoted). Not to mention the implication seemed clear enough that chocomorsel also asked you again to please consider the Camden case and how community policing reform was a change for the better.
I don’t care who actually said it or who you were paraphrasing since we’re not talking about the context of what he was saying. You replied to my post about community policing with that one line, and it had a clear implication that community policing is not a concern of yours since cops apparently can’t or won’t learn about the other sociological aspects of the job they do (after all, they’re not nannies or counselors as you quoted). Not to mention the implication seemed clear enough that chocomorsel also asked you again to please consider the Camden case and how community policing reform was a change for the better.
Community police reform does not involve using your law enforcement agency to shore up your other broken social services. That was the clear implication of my post.
However, yes. I do believe that better use of force training (including weapons) might have prevented Mr. Floyd and Mr. Garner’s death.
You know what else I don’t like? Numbers provided without any context. You think 1000+ police fatalities a year is an insignificant percentage? Let’s take a look at the per capita numbers internationally
This number is meaningless without more information. for all we know US is probably simply more violent than most other countries on the planet. And it probably is true. This is only the # of ppl police killed. That's all the information we have. US literally have one of the most relaxed culture on acquiring a firearm.
In many countries, the security may not even carry a gun. There's no need when no one elses got one
“Killilogy” where you learn to adopt a “predator” mindset is increasingly popular continuing education for police departments. If they’re training predators, who’s the prey?
You know what else I don’t like? Numbers provided without any context. You think 1000+ police fatalities a year is an insignificant percentage? Let’s take a look at the per capita numbers internationally
Community police reform does not involve using your law enforcement agency to shore up your other broken social services. That was the clear implication of my post.
Neither you, nor me, nor the Dallas chief were talking about literally making police officers do social services work. But part of community policing is having officers trained on how things like domestic violence, poverty, broken households, and drugs affect the neighborhoods they police and what they can do in their capacity to keep those problems from getting worse. Look at the following
It is good that there is some degree of police training on the topics above, but it's sad that education on most of those listed in the middle graph barely reaches 60% of recruits. The argument I'm making (based on what we know about the Camden experience), is that when community policing is made the priority (not a priority), there are a whole host of improvements that can be seen in the community and in the department. When it's not a priority and officers aren't getting substantial neighborhood-specific education about social issues or education about interacting with youth, using problem-solving models, prioritizing the right kind of crimes, or assessing the effectiveness of their responses, then of course every officer becomes a hammer and every single problem becomes a nail.
“Killilogy” where you learn to adopt a “predator” mindset is increasingly popular continuing education for police departments. If they’re training predators, who’s the prey?
This number is meaningless without more information. for all we know US is probably simply more violent than most other countries on the planet. And it probably is true. This is only the # of ppl police killed. That's all the information we have. US literally have one of the most relaxed culture on acquiring a firearm.
In many countries, the security may not even carry a gun. There's no need when no one elses got one
Agreed that it's a difficult comparison because there's no other 1st world developed countries that have anywhere close to our degree of gun ownership, but do you see Nigeria there toward the bottom of that page with a rate of 44 per 10 mil to our 46 per 10 mil? Nigeria is home to approximately 350 million of the 500 million illegal firearms in West Africa. And I don't think anyone would argue that at a population level it's more violent there since their murder rate per 100k is approximately double ours. So even if you think that Nigeria's reported police fatality number may be off a bit, it should give you pause that ours is anywhere close to being in the same ballpark.
I do find the overall police response baffling. There's been a concentrated batting down of the hatches and a doubling down on police infallibility. If anything, it has clearly demonstrated how powerful a force the police have become in this country and how little oversight exists.
POLITICO spoke to 10 National Guardsmen who have taken part in the protest response across the country since the killing of George Floyd while in police custody.
apple.news
“While the Park Police cleared out the protesters, some Guardsmen said they felt they were there to actually prevent the police from beating up protesters, instead of the other way around.
“I felt that we were more protecting the people from the police,” said D.C. Guardsman Spec. Isaiah Lynch, who’s unrelated to Si’Kenya Lynch.
The event has taken a toll on some Guardsmen.
“We have a lot of National Guardsmen who are struggling with this, because unlike in combat when you have an enemy, these are our neighbors, our friends, our family,” the first Guard officer said.
The officer said he even told Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, just before the Park Police moved in that the protests had been peaceful that day, a sentiment that was shared by three other Guardsmen who were there.”
I love when people take random 10 second snippets from 15 year old interviews to make propaganda videos.
I wonder what Morgan Freeman actually thinks about BLM and police brutality
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Comments on racism
In 2005, Freeman criticized the celebration of Black History Month, saying, "I don't want a black history month. Black history is American history."[68] He opined that the only way to end racism is to stop talking about it, and he noted that there is no "white history month."[68] Freeman once said in an interview with 60 Minutes's Mike Wallace, "I am going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man."[68][69] Freeman supported the defeated proposal to change the Mississippi state flag, which contains the Confederate battle flag.[70][71] Freeman sparked controversy in 2011 when, on CNN's Piers Morgan Tonight, he accused the Tea Party movement of racism.[72][73][74]
In reaction to the death of Freddie Gray and the 2015 Baltimore protests, Freeman said he was "absolutely" supportive of the protesters. "That unrest [in Baltimore] has nothing to do with terrorism at all, except the terrorism we suffer from the police. [...] Because of the technology—everybody has a smartphone—now we can see what the police are doing. We can show the world, Look, this is what happened in that situation. So why are so many people dying in police custody? And why are they all black? And why are all the police killing them white? What is that? The police have always said, 'I feared for my safety.' Well, now we know. OK. You feared for your safety while a guy was running away from you, right?"[75]
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The North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services is continuing to track confirmed COVID-19 cases and deaths.
www.wbtv.com
The spikes in those states must be fake news though because
“ The first rally will take place in Tulsa, Oklahoma, on June 19. Ahead of a meeting with African American leaders at the White House, Trump said he also plans to visit Florida, North Carolina, Arizona and Texas.”
President Donald Trump will host his first rally in months next week in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and he has plans to visit four other states in the coming weeks as his campaign prepares to relaunch in-person rallies, he said Wednesday.
Some tall tales are coming out of that “autonomous zone” on Capitol Hill that protesters now seem to control. The trouble is that there is just enough truth in the stories being told to cast doubt on what's a lie. What's real might be scary enough for some people but there are also dangerous...
komonews.com
Seattle should have never allowed paramilitaries to occupy even a yard of the city. That's anarchy. So is toppling statues etc. in other parts of the country. No, there is no excuse for that (it doesn't matter if they are "morally" right); the moment a group of people turn into a mob, and start destroying property and threatening others, they should suffer the consequences. This is still a democratic country with democratic institutions and elections; that's how change is inflicted. People who break the law belong in prison, regardless of "intersectionality". What's next? We'll abolish the Constitution, because its writers were white, and some of them owned slaves? Peaceful protests with electoral and political consequences; that's how a democracy works.
The left and their SJWs remind me more and more of the Bolshevik Revolution and the Soviet Union. Marxism is very nice on paper, and attracts a lot of naive (chronically unsuccessful angry) people, even on this forum. It's at the IQ level of white supremacy (so is defunding law enforcement, instead of reforming it). "Four feet good, two feet bad!". Please do read Animal Farm, about revolutions, instead of White Fragility and other racist BS the extremists on the right or left are brainwashing people with. If you were afraid of Trump's authoritarianism, wait till you see the SJWs at power.
This is the hardest thing I have written. I grew up in a law enforcement family. My father worked his
www.lawofficer.com
Police reform is one thing. Anarchy is something totally different. I am worried by the various governmental organizations behaving as if we were in the middle of the French Revolution, instead of protecting cities, citizens and property. Trump is off his rocker, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a point and that we are not a society of laws anymore.
The North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services is continuing to track confirmed COVID-19 cases and deaths.
www.wbtv.com
The spikes in those states must be fake news though because
“ The first rally will take place in Tulsa, Oklahoma, on June 19. Ahead of a meeting with African American leaders at the White House, Trump said he also plans to visit Florida, North Carolina, Arizona and Texas.”
President Donald Trump will host his first rally in months next week in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and he has plans to visit four other states in the coming weeks as his campaign prepares to relaunch in-person rallies, he said Wednesday.
Lol, the paramilitary “anarchists” must be “stooped.” Yeah I mean I guess calling them that might be technically accurate.......but in reality these guys are an almost totally unarmed, disorganized group of weed smoking hippies in tents who will get bored and pack up soon enough, and the mayor is wisely deescalating for the time being while tensions, anger, and distrust are extraordinarily high. Let’s also not forget that the fire dept is in the vicinity and police are still responding to 911 calls.
Lol, the paramilitary “anarchists” must be “stooped.” Yeah I mean I guess calling them that might be technically accurate.......but in reality these guys are an almost totally unarmed, disorganized group of weed smoking hippies in tents who will get bored and pack up soon enough, and the mayor is wisely deescalating for the time being while tensions, anger, and distrust are extraordinarily high. Let’s also not forget that the fire dept is in the vicinity and police are still responding to 911 calls.
Lol, the paramilitary “anarchists” must be “stooped.” Yeah I mean I guess calling them that might be technically accurate.......but in reality these guys are an almost totally unarmed, disorganized group of weed smoking hippies in tents who will get bored and pack up soon enough, and the mayor is wisely deescalating for the time being while tensions, anger, and distrust are extraordinarily high. Let’s also not forget that the fire dept is in the vicinity and police are still responding to 911 calls.
Seattle police say some demonstrators on Capitol Hill are armed and trying to extort protection money from area businesses and residents.
mynorthwest.com
.
Seattle police say some demonstrators on Capitol Hill are armed and trying to extort protection money from area businesses and residents. “We have been hearing from community members that they have been subjected to barricades set up by the protesters with some armed individuals running them as checkpoints in the neighborhood,” Seattle Police Assistant Chief Deanna Nollette said during a news conference on Wednesday. “While they have a constitutionally protected right to bear arms there is no legal right for those arms to be used to intimidate community members.”
Earlier today Allahpundit wrote about the so-called Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ) which was se
hotair.com
The denizens of this new experiment in police-free living were probably envisioning a utopia full of peace and community love. Instead they got a new self-appointed police force led by a rapper named Raz Simone. Early this morning someone posted a video clip to Reddit which shows Simone and a group of people confronting a graffiti artist. Things escalate and eventually the tagger is assaulted by someone in the group and has his phone taken away.
I’m all for the 2A, but the open carry jackasses piss me off - especially when they are toting an AR or AK with a magazine. A few years back when it was fashionable to order Starbucks while open carrying, I was in LE and some dip**** with an AR walks into a Starbucks while I’m ordering my daily addiction. I turn around from the counter to see him standing with it at the low-ready causing me to instinctively clear my jacket flap from my sidearm. There was 2 seconds of silence between us before I realized that he was just a douche nozzle. Had my kid been with me, I doubt that I would have allowed that 2 seconds to pass.
Seattle police say some demonstrators on Capitol Hill are armed and trying to extort protection money from area businesses and residents.
mynorthwest.com
.
Seattle police say some demonstrators on Capitol Hill are armed and trying to extort protection money from area businesses and residents. “We have been hearing from community members that they have been subjected to barricades set up by the protesters with some armed individuals running them as checkpoints in the neighborhood,” Seattle Police Assistant Chief Deanna Nollette said during a news conference on Wednesday. “While they have a constitutionally protected right to bear arms there is no legal right for those arms to be used to intimidate community members.”
Earlier today Allahpundit wrote about the so-called Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ) which was se
hotair.com
The denizens of this new experiment in police-free living were probably envisioning a utopia full of peace and community love. Instead they got a new self-appointed police force led by a rapper named Raz Simone. Early this morning someone posted a video clip to Reddit which shows Simone and a group of people confronting a graffiti artist. Things escalate and eventually the tagger is assaulted by someone in the group and has his phone taken away.
Ha, likewise dude. You post one "report" about protection money with only an SPD source no other corroborating photos, videos, or interviews, and another biased article describing a guy who is tagging, is asked to stop, doesn't, gets ?minorly injured plus his glasses broken, and one of the parties involved in the incident says they came to an amicable agreement at the end of the whole thing.
Not a peep out of you though about the widespread police escalation against peaceful protestors, or the fact that some of these depts were kneeling in "solidarity" when the news cameras were around and then cracking down violently against the same people an hour later. Do me a favor and save your crocodile tears
One of these days i'll be lucky enough to have my own eponyms.
I got jealous of all the Trumpisms, Trumpian, Trumpianism, Trump Doctrine, Trump's law, Trump card, anti-Trump protests, anti-Trumpian, Trumponomics, neo-Trumpianism, post-Trump politics etc.
One Trump has more eponyms than a lot of his predecessors.
