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Yea, my comment was geared toward Navy. I didn’t realize the Army had this option for their MSC officers. It’s not something that the Navy MSC has - general admin options for any bachelors degree. An interesting difference that’s for sure!

Yeah trust me it seemed strange to me. A few years back when I was trying to get into the reserves and my AOC audiologist had no reserves slots so I was gong to 70B. I would have went in as an 0-2 rather than a captain because my doctoral degree was not counted just my two bachelors degrees. Also found out it was any college degree and many enlisted use it as a route to get into the officer ranks without doing OCS. I was just as shocked when I found out that English majors would be competing towards me for a slot.
 
If there is an actual written instruction for what they do if you either fail or develop a medical problem I have never been able to find it. I have seen it happen with medical discharges, both in real life and in a few threads on this board, and it seems like the military's response is different every time. I saw someone develop a medical issue that in no way affected her ability to continue residency and they let gave an honorable discharge with no expectation of repayment. We had someone post here who got cancer and they wanted their money back, with interest, within 90 days of her discharge. I haven't see failures but I am guessing it is equally all over the map

If there is a written instruction I don't know about I hope someone will share it.

The actual guidance is in U.S. Code, Title 10, Subtitle A, Part III, Chapter 105, Subchapter I, Paragraph 2123. In a nutshell it outlines four options (number four has never been used by any of the Services) with regard to the incurred obligation. Those options are, pay back the money, serve the time on active duty as something other than a medical officer, or serve twice the time in the Reserves. There is also some wiggle room for compassionate release in the case of <usually> medical issues so there is no recoupment.

In the Army, the HPSP office looks at each case on its own merit, and the desires of the member. The HPSP office at OTSG makes a recommendation to our Personnel Office, who makes a recommendation to the Sec Army (ASA M&RA), who makes an irreversible decision on each case. The OTSG recommendation can be (and has been) overturned at each step along the way. Which will account for variances along the way. HPSP will look at a medical drop from the position of where is the student in his training (M1?, M4?), and the diagnosis. Then make a recommendation from there. Other admin types in other offices seem to see things a little differently.

@Lets_Run: In the Army the Medical Service Corps is and has been over strength, meaning that unless you were previously in the MSC, chances are that it will not be offered up as an AOC at this point in time.
 
The actual guidance is in U.S. Code, Title 10, Subtitle A, Part III, Chapter 105, Subchapter I, Paragraph 2123. In a nutshell it outlines four options (number four has never been used by any of the Services) with regard to the incurred obligation. Those options are, pay back the money, serve the time on active duty as something other than a medical officer, or serve twice the time in the Reserves. There is also some wiggle room for compassionate release in the case of <usually> medical issues so there is no recoupment.

In the Army, the HPSP office looks at each case on its own merit, and the desires of the member. The HPSP office at OTSG makes a recommendation to our Personnel Office, who makes a recommendation to the Sec Army (ASA M&RA), who makes an irreversible decision on each case. The OTSG recommendation can be (and has been) overturned at each step along the way. Which will account for variances along the way. HPSP will look at a medical drop from the position of where is the student in his training (M1?, M4?), and the diagnosis. Then make a recommendation from there. Other admin types in other offices seem to see things a little differently.

@Lets_Run: In the Army the Medical Service Corps is and has been over strength, meaning that unless you were previously in the MSC, chances are that it will not be offered up as an AOC at this point in time.

Thank you for the clarification.
 
It kinda is, though. I have never met any physician who joined via DA, HPLRP, or FAP. Seriously, not a single one. And there's a reason why: everything other than HPSP a financially stupid way to join the military. FAP offers 135,000 taxed dollars, during a 3 year residency, in exchange for a 4 year commitment. HPLRP offers 160K of taxed loan forgiveness after residency. I can't find the DA bonus list but I am willing to bet it is similarly bad. None of these programs would cover even half of the cost of attendance for a public school, let alone a private one. HPSP offers what is basically the FAP bonus during residency + all your tuition and living expenses during medical school. Its not even close.

I joined via DA as a physician assistant, received some HPLRP for the PA degree (the total available for HPLRP has increased since I joined so I'll be applying for the rest toward my med student loans). (ARNG - never AD). The army wouldn't take me for HPSP bc of "arthritis" in my knee, so I did the MDSSP during medical school, and now the STRAP. It's worth it for me, because I have a bunch of kids and would have been unable to attend (a public) medical school without regular loans + Army bonus (for living expenses). After this discussion, I'm really glad I'm in a civilian residency and in a supportive MEDDET.

HPLRP $240,000
MDSSP $54,480 (only 2 years for me bc recruiter and unit messed up my bonuses - delaying payments)
STRAP $81,720
sign on bonus $60,000
- $120,000 (received prior to medical school)
= $316,200 (before taxes) + drill pay
= 14.5 years after residency in the ARNG = 3,625 hours (if minimum drill time of 50MUTA/yr - but I'm not a shirker so it'll be more hours than the minimum - and this doesn't include deployments bc who knows how many or when those will be, but guaranteed with my designation as a 61N) = $87/hr + drill pay (~$30/hr currently) = $117/hr

I know deployments will change these numbers drastically, but it is what it is.

I'll be in for over 20 years by the time I've completed my obligation, so I'll have some type of retirement and health insurance. There will hopefully still be some value in that.

That's definitely less than I'll make as a civilian attending, but I wouldn't be an attending without the military bonuses to help with cost of living.

So, I'm your N=1.
 
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I have been a big fan of Navy medicine, however, I have to agree. I no longer recommend the HPSP under the current conditions. Its always hard to tell when the pendulum will swing and how far, however, this time it appears things are really changing, and I think the uncertainty is high enough that I can't recommend it. Even if you think you want to do something general, the notion that there is ZERO chance you can sub specialize is reason enough to stay away. I also don't understand how residency programs in the military will survive without sub specialists around. They are essential to making residents into well-rounded attendings, especially to those going off to their island on their own. I'm ready to do my GMO time, get out, finish residency as a civilian. I would rather do that than receive sub-par training because they axed all the sub specialists jobs and left nobody to train me.
 
I also don't understand how residency programs in the military will survive without sub specialists around. They are essential to making residents into well-rounded attendings, especially to those going off to their island on their own. I'm ready to do my GMO time, get out, finish residency as a civilian. I would rather do that than receive sub-par training because they axed all the sub specialists jobs and left nobody to train me.

The intent has been clear that training would not be sacrificed. Decreased and consolidated, yes, but never sacrificed. I imagine that whatever training facility situation we are left with will have a similar availability of current subspecialists. The already farmed-out high-acuity trauma/ICU/etc. rotations that MilMed facilities can't sustain will continue to be outsourced to civilian rotations.

I know we have previously debated the plusses and minuses of outside rotations but I had quite a few and it was definitely an overall positive experience. It allowed me to feel like a civilian for a while, get used to and compare civilian institutions with MilMed, plus it gave me the high-acuity exposure I needed without "trying" to check that box within the MilMed system. I'd rather do an outside rotation than get a subpar exposure to the high-acuity stuff by keeping it within MilMed.

I honestly saw ZERO downsides to having outside civilian rotations. But that was Ortho and in Hampton Roads where we had good civilian MOU options established. Maybe I just got lucky.
 
Hmmm, the title of this thread threw me off, I thought it was some nonsense whining one, but ended up being regarding some serious truths regarding the gargantuan changes that are happening right now. This thread should be Stickied.

Maybe the thread needs to be retitled

It is almost impossible for a medical student or worse a premed to fully understand what These unprecedented changes with DHA etc means, even though they are true.

There is so much uncertainty, this is not good for mil med. Worse it seems that this time it really could be the end of Mil GME.
 
Online makes things so funny, not sure if In the real world, a resident would make some of the remarks made to an attending to their face, I see this type of interaction in this forum so often.
 
I’ve been an attending on this forum for 10 years and that doesn’t bother me. I wouldn’t change the thread title. That was the OPs assessment.

I heard this week from a highly reliable source that the message is getting out and recruiting is down.
 
I’ve been an attending on this forum for 10 years and that doesn’t bother me. I wouldn’t change the thread title. That was the OPs assessment.

I heard this week from a highly reliable source that the message is getting out and recruiting is down.

I hope what you say is true about recruiting.

This is basically the only way to effect any change in military medicine. A couple of years of 50% or lower recruiting years would cripple military medicine.

I don't go to med schools and actively recruit against the military, but I do strongly advise my younger patients who are considering med school against going the military route. This is saying something as many of these patients are children of retired service members as my practice is right outside the largest military base (by population) in the country.
 
Is there anywhere else I can read more about this? Its hard to discern the opinions from the facts. (No offense, I appreciate the thread). USUHS and HPSP are two of my top choices and I'll be starting med school in the fall. I'm a prior service, love the military life style, and I loved military medicine while I was part of it. So I am not sure if the OP is speaking to changes that will be noticeable to me (as I feel I'm interested in a bucket 1 specialty). My mentors were military doc's and USUHS grads but they haven't shared the concerns voiced in this thread with me. Although most are retired, so they may not be aware of the changes. So I'd like to learn more.
 
The trouble is that wherever you go it will all be someone’s opinion based on speculation. Nothing definitive has been put out aside from consolidation across the board, heaviest with non-wartime specialties.

The best part about SDN is you will find many people’s different opinions all in one place.
 
The trouble is that wherever you go it will all be someone’s opinion based on speculation. Nothing definitive has been put out aside from consolidation across the board, heaviest with non-wartime specialties.

The best part about SDN is you will find many people’s different opinions all in one place.

Agree about the speculation part. Some effects are already being seen though. I am seeing subspecialty staff at residency locations being told they must move this summer. These are people who I thought would never move because there aren’t people coming in to replace them. Not even the Specialty Leader has apparently been able to win the argument.


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Is there anywhere else I can read more about this? Its hard to discern the opinions from the facts. (No offense, I appreciate the thread). USUHS and HPSP are two of my top choices and I'll be starting med school in the fall. I'm a prior service, love the military life style, and I loved military medicine while I was part of it. So I am not sure if the OP is speaking to changes that will be noticeable to me (as I feel I'm interested in a bucket 1 specialty). My mentors were military doc's and USUHS grads but they haven't shared the concerns voiced in this thread with me. Although most are retired, so they may not be aware of the changes. So I'd like to learn more.

Agree with both replies above.

Also, I can personally tell you that changes are, in fact, already happening, as far as training and personnel movements to accommodate the new directives from DHA.

Again, if being a military officer is significantly more important to you (or anyone) than being a physician -- the latter being considered more of a bonus rather than the primary gain, then the military can be a good fit. If being a physician is of any importance, I genuinely think the military is NOT the place to pursue that goal. Also, I wouldn't hold too tight to your current specialty desires, they often do change for a lot of people (including myself) -- and after working so hard, you want to give yourself the most options to pursue what often becomes a lifelong comittment to learning, its a well earned right -- except in the military.
 
Of course changes are already happening. DHA rolled out 3 months ago and NDAA2017 happened a long time ago. Just because changes are happening doesn't mean the sky is falling.

If you want to have the most freedom to choose what you want to do then do not sign up for the Military
If being a military officer is a #1 priority for you and you can see yourself being happy within a critical wartime specialty then I still think MilMed will serve you well.

Yes, your decision on specialty may change and perhaps the military won't be offering it. If that risk is too much to handle right now then don't sign up. If you can handle said risk then make the decision and stick with it. Just own whatever decision you make. Be a military physician or be a civilian physician. Never try to be a civilian physician stuck in a uniform for a few years because you will find yourself frustrated and miserable pretty quick.
 
The input is much appreciated. Thank you. I won’t bore you with my story. Hopefully the changes provide some positive effects for who ever decides to remain.
 
The input is much appreciated. Thank you. I won’t bore you with my story. Hopefully the changes provide some positive effects for who ever decides to remain.

Personal stories aren't boring. It provides context and helps people provide pertinent responses.

I will likely remain through all of this. With my FTOS spot that adds 2 more years (plus the 1 year I'm actually at fellowship) on top of my current 5. For better or for worse I will be here through the next 8 years at least. I'll keep ya'll posted on how its going. :soexcited:
 
Personal stories aren't boring. It provides context and helps people provide pertinent responses.

I will likely remain through all of this. With my FTOS spot that adds 2 more years (plus the 1 year I'm actually at fellowship) on top of my current 5. For better or for worse I will be here through the next 8 years at least. I'll keep ya'll posted on how its going. :soexcited:
They ARE boring. Unless they involve two non-violent felonies, a celebrity of B-list status or better, and at least 3,000 miles of travel that isn’t recalled. But they also help to frame responses.
 
Maybe this has been posted in the thread, but can anyone say what specialties are within each “bucket”? Obviously gen surg, EM, and psych I presume would be in bucket 1 but I haven’t seen an actual breakdown. Is there one?


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Maybe this has been posted in the thread, but can anyone say what specialties are within each “bucket”? Obviously gen surg, EM, and psych I presume would be in bucket 1 but I haven’t seen an actual breakdown. Is there one?


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Moreover, what do they mean by 'bucket'? As in, we're tossing everything in the bucket, or we're keeping the bucket (to puke in later, like after a night of heavy drinking)?
 
Personal stories aren't boring. It provides context and helps people provide pertinent responses.

I will likely remain through all of this. With my FTOS spot that adds 2 more years (plus the 1 year I'm actually at fellowship) on top of my current 5. For better or for worse I will be here through the next 8 years at least. I'll keep ya'll posted on how its going. :soexcited:

Congrats on the GMESB selection. Those are competitive these days.
 
They should post this at the recruiter's office Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

Anyone who is walking in to the recruiter's office should have already completely researched, shadowed and SDN'ed enough to realize that entering there is the right decision for them. Let's not forget that MilMed is a great decision for the right person. It is NOT a last resort decision.
 
Anyone who is walking in to the recruiter's office should have already completely researched, shadowed and SDN'ed enough to realize that entering there is the right decision for them. Let's not forget that MilMed is a great decision for the right person. It is NOT a last resort decision.
* at least as much as reasonably possible
 
Anyone who is walking in to the recruiter's office should have already completely researched, shadowed and SDN'ed enough to realize that entering there is the right decision for them. Let's not forget that MilMed is a great decision for the right person. It is NOT a last resort decision.

Amen. I have some sympathy for people who joined pre-(say) 2005, when SDN and on-line forums were still viewed as a fad rather than an important resource (the latter is clearly true).

Anyone who's signed up since then should have a decent idea of what they're getting into (albeit maybe not all of the details). And I don't really accept the notion that a 22-yo out of college can't make a good, well-informed decision. If they can decide to go to medical school, they can decide to join (or not join) the military. If not at 22, then what age is appropriate? Kids these days, they do more research about their phones!

Also for what it's worth: everyone should understand that the military medical complex has never really been about sub-specialty training and care. Sure we have it, but it's never been that robust. For instance, in medicine, we make a cards fellow here and there, a few GIs, one rheum, one endocrin....its been this way for several years. I'd imagine the same is true for GS (how many transplant or vascular fellows do we have?). We're talking onesie twosies here. Not dozens. And you can tell by the lack of volume/acuity in these sub-specialty clinics that we're not really doing all that much in said sub-specialties.

Let it be known (as has been known for a long time) that the mil med world is good for most general and primary care types (IM, FM, Peds, ObGyn, maybe GS too)....not so good for their sub-specialties.
 
Amen. I have some sympathy for people who joined pre-(say) 2005, when SDN and on-line forums were still viewed as a fad rather than an important resource (the latter is clearly true).

Anyone who's signed up since then should have a decent idea of what they're getting into (albeit maybe not all of the details). And I don't really accept the notion that a 22-yo out of college can't make a good, well-informed decision. If they can decide to go to medical school, they can decide to join (or not join) the military. If not at 22, then what age is appropriate? Kids these days, they do more research about their phones!

Also for what it's worth: everyone should understand that the military medical complex has never really been about sub-specialty training and care. Sure we have it, but it's never been that robust. For instance, in medicine, we make a cards fellow here and there, a few GIs, one rheum, one endocrin....its been this way for several years. I'd imagine the same is true for GS (how many transplant or vascular fellows do we have?). We're talking onesie twosies here. Not dozens. And you can tell by the lack of volume/acuity in these sub-specialty clinics that we're not really doing all that much in said sub-specialties.

Let it be known (as has been known for a long time) that the mil med world is good for most general and primary care types (IM, FM, Peds, ObGyn, maybe GS too)....not so good for their sub-specialties.
Agree with everything. I just think it’s very difficult to really know what you’re getting in to until you’re in to it. But unlike the other decisions a 22 year old makes, there’s no backing out of this one. I guess it would be like deciding to rob a bank, knowing you’re gonna get caught. But you’ve read all about prison, so you think you’ve got a handle on it.
 
Agree with everything. I just think it’s very difficult to really know what you’re getting in to until you’re in to it. But unlike the other decisions a 22 year old makes, there’s no backing out of this one. I guess it would be like deciding to rob a bank, knowing you’re gonna get caught. But you’ve read all about prison, so you think you’ve got a handle on it.

For someone who’s done a deployment on a ship, that analogy is all too apt.
 
Greetings All!

Potential big changes coming to military medicine. No one really knows what is happening but this just in on military news.

More Than 17,000 Uniformed Medical Jobs Eyed for Elimination

Overall big cuts and restructuring coming to military medicine. Article notes potentially 17,000 total medical billets being cut; support staff and physicians. This is likely going to include many of the "non-operational" physician billets - pediatrics, obstetrics, and many of the medicine subspecialties such as cardiology, endocrinology, etc. From my opinion, if your are joining to serve the US military this is not going to affect your. If you are joining to do your time and get out and become a sub-sub specialist, more so for the HPSP folk, the big HPSP scholarship might not be so shinny anymore. Reason I post this is because no one told me when I was applying that if you do 4 years of HPSP and get out, you will likely have to repeat intern year and not all schools look highly on those reapplying from GMO. They may also ask soooo what again did you do for 4 years after medicals school if the school does not have anyone from military medicine? Many program directors are also asking if military treatment facilities remove many of the subspecialties, how will this affect residency accreditation. The big question to ask, will I be able to do the speciality I want?

NONE OF THIS IS CERTAIN AND IS STILL BEING DEBATED AND NEEDS CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL!

This does not alter my desire to serve whatsoever. My passion is to serve and provide medical care to those who put themselves in harms way as well as their families. If you roll with the changes, I assure you military medicine can be one of the most rewarding career choices you ever make.
 
Greetings All!

Potential big changes coming to military medicine. No one really knows what is happening but this just in on military news.

More Than 17,000 Uniformed Medical Jobs Eyed for Elimination

Overall big cuts and restructuring coming to military medicine. Article notes potentially 17,000 total medical billets being cut; support staff and physicians. This is likely going to include many of the "non-operational" physician billets - pediatrics, obstetrics, and many of the medicine subspecialties such as cardiology, endocrinology, etc. From my opinion, if your are joining to serve the US military this is not going to affect your. If you are joining to do your time and get out and become a sub-sub specialist, more so for the HPSP folk, the big HPSP scholarship might not be so shinny anymore. Reason I post this is because no one told me when I was applying that if you do 4 years of HPSP and get out, you will likely have to repeat intern year and not all schools look highly on those reapplying from GMO. They may also ask soooo what again did you do for 4 years after medicals school if the school does not have anyone from military medicine? Many program directors are also asking if military treatment facilities remove many of the subspecialties, how will this affect residency accreditation. The big question to ask, will I be able to do the speciality I want?

NONE OF THIS IS CERTAIN AND IS STILL BEING DEBATED AND NEEDS CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL!

This does not alter my desire to serve whatsoever. My passion is to serve and provide medical care to those who put themselves in harms way as well as their families. If you roll with the changes, I assure you military medicine can be one of the most rewarding career choices you ever make.

So if you’re aiming for emergency medicine, sports medicine or some kind of surgery with the intent of staying in the military, you’re good?

Also could this mean more “Bucket 1” residency slots would be added at the expense of buckets 2&3?
 
The quotes suggesting we’ll just make the doctors work harder are classic. Low volumes are due to the support system at the MTFs not the physicians.

"Reducing the number of people providing a particular service within a facility does not mean a degradation of care within that facility."

So, it seems the idea here is if you cut some of the physicians at a facility, the remaining physicians will have their case load increase. This is superficially plausible. To fabricate some numbers:

10 physicians and 300 cases = 30 cases per physician
6 physicians and 300 cases = 50 cases per physician

Sounds great. Except here's my concern -
  • Cutting support staff is likely to reduce the total number of cases that can be performed, period. So now maybe there are only 250 cases for those 6 physicians, or about 40 apiece. Still an improvement, right?
  • Well, cutting physician staff - especially subspecialists in ancillary fields that aren't war critical - is likely to reduce or eliminate the facility's capability to handle more complex cases. How will a (war critical) general surgeon do certain breast cases if there's no (non war critical) interventional radiologist to do a needle loc on the morning of surgery? How will a (war critical) thoracic surgeon do a lobectomy if there's no (non war critical) pulmonologist to refer the patient in the first place, or run the ICU to receive the patient postop? Etc. So now the most complex patients get referred out. Instead of 40 cases per physician, maybe it's 35 ... still numerically an improvement, but the most valuable cases are completely gone.
  • The remaining physicians will be expected to absorb the administrative tasks and other collateral duties that were previously performed by their now-cut colleagues. Will they have time to do these additional cases?
I'm afraid the end result will be each physician does a few more low-value cases and significantly more administrative work, with a deleterious effect upon competency, morale, and readiness.
 
Yup. Those non-critical GI docs generate a large volume of surgical cases. If someone leaves the system for the EUS or even the screening colonoscopy, that doc will refer to his surgeon and the patient will have Medicare so that can’t be stopped.

Plus they will cut support staff since there are fewer docs.

I don’t think they want to stop it. They want all that business to leave. It just costs money. But the statements are obviously disingenuous.
 
End strength changes do not need congressional approval.

As for the guy saying that this won’t affect your life...of course it will.

The congressional portion hinges on the billets being converted to line billets. Apparently there is normally a “fee” associated with that conversion which has made it too costly to consider in the past, but the NDAA being proposed has a waiver of that fee. We are apparently seeing this now and rapidly due to that clause which is making it possible for the Services to steal from David to pay Paul without any financial cost.

My understanding is that usually if you want to convert a staff billet to a line billet the line must pay the staff side a fee which was to offset the cost of a civilian or other replacement. I had never heard of this until recently, but it was explained to me that the NDAA currently on the table has a waiver clause and that is why you see that congressional approval statement.


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**ABSOLUTE MUST READ FOR PROSPECTIVE HPSP/USUHS STUDENTS: More Than 17,000 Uniformed Medical Jobs Eyed for Elimination

Featuring such ill omens as..

"If the goal is to tear down the military health system, this would be a reasonable way to do it," warned one service health official who asked not to be identified.

“....goal is to deepen the workload of remaining medical billets at base hospitals....”

"One said he is worried that staff cuts this deep could leave hospitals short of personnel to deploy or to receive patients if old wars escalate or new ones break out in Korea, Eastern Europe or the South China Sea. He also worries about finding civilian replacements when needed, noting chronic staff shortages within the Department of Veterans Affairs medical system that can't be filled even in peacetime."

Under-paid? Check.
Under-supported? Check.
Under-appreciated? Check.

Factor in reverse-profis with its emphasis on spreading out an already thin and beleaguered medical corps and the government has well-positioned itself for the slow, painful death of the military medical corps.

Serious question -- has anyone here heard of someone buying out the remaining years of their ADSO? Asking for a friend 😛

Speaking of friends.

Remember.

Friends don't let friends join military medicine.
 
Does psych fall into a bucket 1 specialty? Curious...
 
Since we don’t even know what the buckets will mean, I think all this focus on them is a mistake. For all we know, being in bucket 1 could just mean that you’re the only one left to fill all the GMO billets.
 
**ABSOLUTE MUST READ FOR PROSPECTIVE HPSP/USUHS STUDENTS: More Than 17,000 Uniformed Medical Jobs Eyed for Elimination

Featuring such ill omens as..
. . .
"One said he is worried that staff cuts this deep could leave hospitals short of personnel to deploy or to receive patients if old wars escalate or new ones break out in Korea, Eastern Europe or the South China Sea. He also worries about finding civilian replacements when needed, noting chronic staff shortages within the Department of Veterans Affairs medical system that can't be filled even in peacetime."

. . . .

In a crunch, they will stop-loss, call up RR and also IRR and then start drafting. They did it before and will do it again.
 
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