This is the stuff they teach in medical school now

[doctalaughs]

Washington U lecturer warns medical students not to ‘debate’ her on ‘systemic oppression': 'shut that' down | Fox News

A Washington University in St. Louis’ medical school lecturer told students that if anyone tried to "fight or debate" her on "systemic oppression," she would would shut it down.

www.foxnews.com

I don’t even understand why this is considered remotely part of any medical curriculum. Can’t we just say that racial disparities in outcomes exist and to be aware of that — and not move to “we know medicine has a really bad racism issue” which is totally political/ divisive.

When did medical training move from facts to indoctrination?

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[marr65]

Oh boy! Here we go again!

 

[deleted1147063]

Washington U lecturer warns medical students not to ‘debate’ her on ‘systemic oppression': 'shut that' down | Fox News

A Washington University in St. Louis’ medical school lecturer told students that if anyone tried to "fight or debate" her on "systemic oppression," she would would shut it down.

www.foxnews.com

I don’t even understand why this is considered remotely part of any medical curriculum. Can’t we just say that racial disparities in outcomes exist and to be aware of that — and not move to “we know medicine has a really bad racism issue” which is totally political/ divisive.

When did medical training move from facts to indoctrination?

When we weren't looking. And when we say nothing, because of fear of being cancelled.

Even on this forum, among (supposedly) smart and educated people, if one brings up the dangers of woke indoctrination, one is labeled as a right-wing fearmonger, even by moderators.

The left is trying to impose a Marxist revolution and way of thinking in this country. Just because it's non-violent (momentarily), it doesn't mean that it's not real, or less dangerous.

For the left, education is the number one opportunity for brainwashing, starting from kindergarten. No child left unindoctrinated.

It's so sad. I can always move back to my native country, which is still pretty normal and common sense, but where will all the well-meaning stupid people on the left go, when this country really becomes the extreme left hell we have seen so many times in history?

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[GassYous]

Washington U lecturer warns medical students not to ‘debate’ her on ‘systemic oppression': 'shut that' down | Fox News

A Washington University in St. Louis’ medical school lecturer told students that if anyone tried to "fight or debate" her on "systemic oppression," she would would shut it down.

www.foxnews.com

I don’t even understand why this is considered remotely part of any medical curriculum. Can’t we just say that racial disparities in outcomes exist and to be aware of that — and not move to “we know medicine has a really bad racism issue” which is totally political/ divisive.

When did medical training move from facts to indoctrination?

War is peace. Freedom is slavery.

All this stuff is dumb and to force people to believe it is oppressive. Can't say anything anymore in case someone gets offended and tries to ruin your life.

There's barely enough time to go over basic science and medical stuff during medical school.

 

[doctalaughs]

War is peace. Freedom is slavery.

All this stuff is dumb and to force people to believe it is oppressive. Can't say anything anymore in case someone gets offended and tries to ruin your life.

There's barely enough time to go over basic science and medical stuff during medical school.

Yes, what kills me the most is when you bring this up the left side says “nope, it’s not real. It’s not happening.” Or the other stock response “we can’t teach about the history of our country without this.” Like some weird blurring between historical fact and political agenda/ interpretation is going on.

I guess the winners gets to write history….

 

[deleted1147063]

Yes, what kills me the most is when you bring this up the left side says “nope, it’s not real. It’s not happening.” Or the other stock response “we can’t teach about the history of our country without this.” Like some weird blurring between historical fact and political agenda/ interpretation is going on.

I guess the winners gets to write history….

The authoritarian technique. Keep lying, keep denying, keep drowning out the truth with the narrative; in the end, people won't know whom to believe and they'll believe the noisier side. And that's in an ideal society, where the media and the government don't censor the inconvenient truths.

 

[UscGhost]

Oh Lord..did anyone actually listen to what she said or the fact that she also said

"This does not mean that I am opposed to hearing other perspectives. I would like to be very clear about that: I am always willing to engage in dialogue with folks that may disagree with me. Always."

"And I will not think less of you, nor will I try to fight you or debate you.

I don't think we need to call 911 for the anti-woke police and everyone can just relax

Was there anything in that little snippet posted by the FAR right fox news that was factually incorrect?

There is plenty of data that indicates racial disparities in healthcare. She wasn't speaking to a class of all white people. She was speaking to a diverse class and telling them that racism in healthcare is bad. Is she supposed to say that racism is good or that it doesn't exist?

 

[Reveler]

I don’t even understand why this is considered remotely part of any medical curriculum.

The LCME Standards set forth minimum curriculum requirements that include instruction on healthcare disparities, inequality and efforts to reduce healthcare inequities. The AAMC created the Tool for Assessing Cultural Competence Training (TACCT) in order to help med schools create a framework to integrate cultural competence curriculum and satisfy the LCME standards by augmenting their curriculum. Obviously each school has ways of satisfying these requirements and every instructor has their own unique way of interpreting their institution’s curricular goals.

 

[doctalaughs]

Oh Lord..did anyone actually listen to what she said or the fact that she also said

"This does not mean that I am opposed to hearing other perspectives. I would like to be very clear about that: I am always willing to engage in dialogue with folks that may disagree with me. Always."

"And I will not think less of you, nor will I try to fight you or debate you.

I don't think we need to call 911 for the anti-woke police and everyone can just relax

Was there anything in that little snippet posted by the FAR right fox news that was factually incorrect?

She also said “And in fact, if you try to fight me or debate me, I will shut that s— down real fast”. So she’s saying she is ok with hearing other perspectives but doesn’t want any debate on HER offensive interpretation why disparities exist - how does that even make sense?

And can students with an opposing view leave the lecture and not affect their grade if they don’t agree? If it’s part of the curriculum and taught with the political bent of “systemic oppression” (the lecturer’s words not mine), how is that ok?

What if we brought in a lecturer who taught that the disparities exist because “people of color have a culture of de-valuing education and violence.” A myopic view which would be totally shouted down and not allowed. This sort of interpretive, radical politics should not be taught in any school, just as her interpretation is offensive as well. Just because she believes it doesn’t make it ok as part of curriculum.

 

[UscGhost]

I think these are the things people worry about while they are shopping for their Trump NFT trading cards

 

[EMhawkeye]

When we weren't looking. And when we say nothing, because of fear of being cancelled.

Even on this forum, among (supposedly) smart and educated people, if one brings up the dangers of woke indoctrination, one is labeled as a right-wing fearmonger, even by moderators.

The left is trying to impose a Marxist revolution and way of thinking in this country. Just because it's non-violent (momentarily), it doesn't mean that it's not real, or less dangerous.

For the left, education is the number one opportunity for brainwashing, starting from kindergarten. No child left unindoctrinated.

It's so sad. I can always move back to my native country, which is still pretty normal and common sense, but where will all the well-meaning stupid people on the left go, when this country really becomes the extreme left hell we have seen so many times in history?

You seem to paint the left with the same broad brush you acute the left of painting the right with.

What is even sadder in the interactions in this forum are the psuedo intellectuals that claim to be “asking questions” or “contrarians” yet really have to substance to back up anything they say.

 

[UscGhost]

She also said “And in fact, if you try to fight me or debate me, I will shut that s— down real fast”. So she’s saying she is ok with hearing other perspectives but doesn’t want any debate on HER offensive interpretation why disparities exist - how does that even make sense?

And can students with an opposing view leave the lecture and not affect their grade if they don’t agree? If it’s part of the curriculum and taught with the political bent of “systemic oppression” (the lecturer’s words not mine), how is that ok?

What if we brought in a lecturer who taught that the disparities exist because “people of color have a culture of de-valuing education and violence.” A myopic view which would be totally shouted down and not allowed. This sort of interpretive, radical politics should not be taught in any school, just as her interpretation is offensive as well.

Who knows what she meant. You would have to ask her. Maybe she meant she just doesn't want to get into a verbal altercation about it. Her statement could be taken either way. She made multiple statements that suggest she is open to other ideas and made one statement saying she wasn't. So I go with the majority..

Can you leave a lecture? I assume so..people leave lectures all the time.

So..your argument is that she shouldn't be able to lecture that racism is bad (which I don't think is disputable unless you think it's good...) Because another hypothetical lecturer who has racist opinions wouldn't be able to give a hypothetical lecture about it?

 

[doctalaughs]

I think these are the things people worry about while they are shopping for their Trump NFT trading cards

See my point #1 about the tired argument that “this isn’t happening.” Then see the poster below about painting the entire left with 1 brush and look at yourself in the mirror.

The problem isn’t that everyone on the left thinks like this- it’s that the power structure (ie academia and those controlling curriculum) buys into it.

 

[doctalaughs]

So..your argument is that she shouldn't be able to lecture that racism is bad (which I don't think is disputable unless you think it's good...)

Good job trying to twist the argument into something completely different.

Pretty much 99.9% of society today thinks racism is bad. Sure you could teach that but it would be a very stupid, short lecture.

Teaching that our current system is “systemically oppressive” and that the disparities in medicine now are direct result of racism from the people within the current system is a completely different viewpoint.

 

[UscGhost]

See my point #1 about the tired argument that “this isn’t happening.” Then see the poster below about painting the entire left with 1 brush and look at yourself in the mirror.

The problem isn’t that everyone on the left thinks like this- it’s that the power structure (ie academia and those controlling curriculum) buys into it.

Yea..that's usually what the people on the right do.

They manufacture a crisis...and then when nobody else sees it...they manufacture a conspiracy theory about it

 

[Reveler]

Teaching that the disparities in medicine now are direct result of racism from the people within the current system is a completely different viewpoint.

Is that a point she made?

 

[UscGhost]

Good job trying to twist the argument into something completely different.

Pretty much 99.9% of society today thinks racism is bad. Sure you could teach that but it would be a very stupid, short lecture.

Teaching that our current system is “systemically oppressive” and that the disparities in medicine now are direct result of racism from the people within the current system is a completely different viewpoint.

People of color die sooner and suffer more preventable illnesses in our healthcare systems compared with white Americans — even in controlled studies that allow for variables such as age, location, education level, socioeconomic status, and total income.

The statistics reflect racial inequities in healthcare:

• A recent Cigna study found higher rates of cancer, diabetes, childhood obesity, and heart disease among Black Americans linked to the lack of economic resources, limited access to healthcare, and delay in treatment.
• Compared with white Americans, Black Americans die prematurely from all types of diseases, including diabetes, hypertension, strokes, and, more recently, COVID-19.
• Metrics such as the infant mortality gap and the maternal mortality gap reveal legacies and current practices of racial exclusion and discrimination in our health systems. Black newborns die 250% more often than white newborns in the United States. Black mothers are at least three times more likely than white mothers to die due to complications in childbirth.
• Black Americans between the ages of 18 and 49 are twice as likely as whites to die from heart disease.
• Predominantly Black ZIP codes are 67% more likely than other ZIP codes to lack adequate numbers of primary care physicians (PCPs), according to a 2012 study.
• Black Americans ultimately wait longer than white patients for life-saving treatments, such as initial EKGs.

 

[Planktonmd]

The source if Fox News... so it is BS and silly propaganda designed to sound convincing to the conspiracy theorists and uneducated.
Let's discuss something of value instead.

 

[doctalaughs]

Is that a point she made?

She literally says on video “I have a really hard time being neutral around issues of systemic oppression” and “we're really asking you to think about your own identities, and what that means to be anti-racist, which is an active stance in medicine that we know has a really bad racism issue."

If you think that she is not teaching CRT, which presents as FACT that disparities exist primarily due to people acting systemically racist (more than just innate bias, which is part of the definition) I’m not sure what to say.

 

[doctalaughs]

People of color die sooner and suffer more preventable illnesses in our healthcare systems compared with white Americans — even in controlled studies that allow for variables such as age, location, education level, socioeconomic status, and total income.

The statistics reflect racial inequities in healthcare:

• A recent Cigna study found higher rates of cancer, diabetes, childhood obesity, and heart disease among Black Americans linked to the lack of economic resources, limited access to healthcare, and delay in treatment.
• Compared with white Americans, Black Americans die prematurely from all types of diseases, including diabetes, hypertension, strokes, and, more recently, COVID-19.
• Metrics such as the infant mortality gap and the maternal mortality gap reveal legacies and current practices of racial exclusion and discrimination in our health systems. Black newborns die 250% more often than white newborns in the United States. Black mothers are at least three times more likely than white mothers to die due to complications in childbirth.
• Black Americans between the ages of 18 and 49 are twice as likely as whites to die from heart disease.
• Predominantly Black ZIP codes are 67% more likely than other ZIP codes to lack adequate numbers of primary care physicians (PCPs), according to a 2012 study.
• Black Americans ultimately wait longer than white patients for life-saving treatments, such as initial EKGs.

All this stuff is fine to teach and present as the evidence aside from the bolded. How about we give them these facts and then present a variety of possibilities as to cause and let students form their own opinions about what factors contribute the most/least:

1. For profit healthcare companies which dominate this industry choose to locate and serve populations that they make more profit on (same as supermarkets)

Or

2. Poverty, genetics and cultural differences leads to some groups presenting with different states of health, some more advanced/severe than others leading to different outcomes.

Or

3. People in the system are racist against certain groups and therefore decide to give them inferior care.

 

[dannyboy1]

Whatever. This isn’t kindergarten. Everyone is a reasonably intelligent adult and no one is being “indoctrinated”. We had similar bull$hit classes in med school which caused absolutely no one to rethink their lives. Just tell them what they want to hear and move on. These “lecturers” are just lucky to be living in a woke time so they can be paid while contributing nothing of value../.

 

[doctalaughs]

Whatever. This isn’t kindergarten. Everyone is a reasonably intelligent adult and no one is being “indoctrinated”. We had similar bull$hit classes in med school which caused absolutely no one to rethink their lives. Just tell them what they want to hear and move on. These “lecturers” are just lucky to be living in a woke time so they can be paid while contributing nothing of value../.

I agree with this. One thing I learned in medical school is how to pretend to listen to people who think they are doing a great service to humanity, whatever capacity that may be. Especially in the era of laptops and smartphones it’s super easy to ignore these people. They can’t test the material in any meaningful way so it’s all just filler, which there is a lot of in medicine to keep the 22% of gdp machine churning

Just file it under annoying/personally offensive/time wasting things to remember when it comes time to vote in the next election. That’s what I do and I just consider that my way of giving my opinion on these matters to people who will actually listen

Oh I agree and act the exact same way in life, aside from an Internet forum.

I just find it funny that if a right-leaning topic was presented as “curriculum” in many places the left mob would probably go crazy (as evidenced by the real violence and censorship that has happened to conservative speakers).

It’s also ironic the left cannot fathom this might be what happens at the voting booth. Instead everyone is a bigoted Trump fanatic.

 

[ucladoc2b]

Oh I agree and act the exact same way in life, aside from an Internet forum.

I just find it funny that if a right-leaning topic was presented as “curriculum” in many places the left mob would probably go crazy (as evidenced by the real violence and censorship that has happened to conservative speakers).

It’s also ironic the left cannot fathom this might be what happens at the voting booth. Instead everyone is a bigoted Trump fanatic.

The left usually has substantial evidence behind many of their assertions. If the right came with the same level of evidence, they would likely have an audience.

It’s curious why the right is so threatened by CRT with the usual rebuttal being whiny accusations of “woke.”

 

[pgg]

Whatever. This isn’t kindergarten. Everyone is a reasonably intelligent adult and no one is being “indoctrinated”. We had similar bull$hit classes in med school which caused absolutely no one to rethink their lives. Just tell them what they want to hear and move on. These “lecturers” are just lucky to be living in a woke time so they can be paid while contributing nothing of value../.

My medical school ethics professor wrote "see me" instead of a grade on one of my papers, and then added words to the effect of advising me to consider radiology, pathology, or anesthesiology to minimize my contact with people. Yeah his bizarre reaction is a little funny considering I became an anesthesiologist (maybe he was on to something!), but I thought it was a f'd up response then and I still think that.

After that I wrote what I thought he wanted to hear and avoided additional "see me" grades. I don't even remember what I wrote about, but I do remember how it felt. It wasn't kindergarten, I was an adult, and he was trying to indoctrinate me ... but I needed to pass his class and I needed to graduate. I couldn't just walk out, and I couldn't really object without causing more problems. Obviously I "got over it" but it was upsetting. This was in 1997, and while most of my time in medical school is a vague blurry memory now, I remember that vividly. I think he was just a ****ty person who found refuge in academia where he was tolerated as eccentric or something.

Looking on the bright side - telling awful people in power what they want to hear was a useful lesson to learn early on. It served me well in later stages of GME. Many times hence I had to remind myself that I wasn't there to make friends or to be liked by everyone, but rather I was there to acquire a skill set, knowledge, and certificate.

 

[doctalaughs]

The left usually has substantial evidence behind many of their assertions. If the right came with the same level of evidence, they would likely have an audience.

It’s curious why the right is so threatened by CRT with the usual rebuttal being whiny accusations of “woke.”

The right does have a large audience, it’s just not you or your groupthink circle. And it’s censored/canceled in certain spaces so that you can only hear yourself.

What’s the substantial evidence for mostly #3 in my post above, and not #2 or #1?

If I said I have “substantial evidence” that black skin boosts your admissions chances to a top university or medical school by 250% when compared to a matched equal academic talent group for a white student, would it then justify me teaching a mandatory course about “systemic reverse white racism?” to everyone who came though medical school?

Probably not. I’m sure if that course was required though, it would be no big deal / “nothing to see here” from the left.

 

[dannyboy1]

My medical school ethics professor wrote "see me" instead of a grade on one of my papers, and then added words to the effect of advising me to consider radiology, pathology, or anesthesiology to minimize my contact with people. Yeah his bizarre reaction is a little funny considering I became an anesthesiologist (maybe he was on to something!), but I thought it was a f'd up response then and I still think that.

After that I wrote what I thought he wanted to hear and avoided additional "see me" grades. I don't even remember what I wrote about, but I do remember how it felt. It wasn't kindergarten, I was an adult, and he was trying to indoctrinate me ... but I needed to pass his class and I needed to graduate. I couldn't just walk out, and I couldn't really object without causing more problems. Obviously I "got over it" but it was upsetting. This was in 1997, and while most of my time in medical school is a vague blurry memory now, I remember that vividly. I think he was just a ****ty person who found refuge in academia where he was tolerated as eccentric or something.

Looking on the bright side - telling awful people in power what they want to hear was a useful lesson to learn early on. It served me well in later stages of GME. Many times hence I had to remind myself that I wasn't there to make friends or to be liked by everyone, but rather I was there to acquire a skill set, knowledge, and certificate.

You had papers ? I would have flunked out for sure. Thankfully medical schools have gotten lazy and it was all multiple choice in my day

 

[ucladoc2b]

The right does have a large audience, it’s just not you or your groupthink circle. And it’s censored/canceled in certain spaces so that you can only hear yourself.

What’s the substantial evidence for mostly #3 in my post above, and not #2 or #1?

If I said I have “substantial evidence” that black skin boosts your admissions chances to a top university or medical school by 250% when compared to a matched equal academic talent group for a white student, would it then justify me teaching a mandatory course about “systemic reverse white racism?” to everyone who came though medical school?

Probably not. I’m sure if that course was required though, it would be no big deal / “nothing to see here” from the left.

And that’s my point…there is so much blame on supposed “groupthink and indoctrination.” Little actual intelligent evidence in counterargument.

I’ve read evidence on both sides. In order to believe the anti woke crowd, I would have to forget substantial portions of US history, economic policy, voting rights, and major court cases. No reason to think it just went away one day.

Happy to listen to any evidence you may have that refutes it.

 

[pgg]

You had papers ? I would have flunked out for sure. Thankfully medical schools have gotten lazy and it was all multiple choice in my day

I guess it's harder to get in touch with your feelings via a multiple choice test!

 

[ucladoc2b]

I guess it's harder to get in touch with your feelings via a multiple choice test!

Oh there were many feelings during my MC tests. But expressing them would have gotten me kicked out of the room.

 

[BLADEMDA]

And that’s my point…there is so much blame on supposed “groupthink and indoctrination.” Little actual intelligent evidence in counterargument.

I’ve read evidence on both sides. In order to believe the anti woke crowd, I would have to forget substantial portions of US history, economic policy, voting rights, and major court cases. No reason to think it just went away one day.

Happy to listen to any evidence you may have that refutes it.

No, you fon't need to forget history but rather learn from it. It's not that Conservatives don't see the racism of our past, that racism is quite obvious, but rather we focus on where we are today and where we should be in 5 years. That's why these lectures are about dividing Americans by race or gender or self-identity rather than focus on the individual. Race becomes the MOST important factor in a patient interaction when it should one factor among many like socio-economic status or country of origin to name 2 others.

WOKE Is all about an ideology of class, race, gender as being the center of one's focus rather than the individual and his/her beliefs. WOKE is about elevating the status of historically disadvantage or disenfranchised groups OVER those perceived to have created that disadvantage. WOKE is about creating more dissension and hatred among Americans rather than focus on a creating an equal society for all.

 

[ucladoc2b]

No, you fon't need to forget history but rather learn from it. It's not that Conservatives don't see the racism of our past, that racism is quite obvious, but rather we focus on where we are today and where we should be in 5 years. That's why these lectures are about dividing Americans by race or gender or self-identity rather than focus on the individual. Race becomes the MOST important factor in a patient interaction when it should one factor among many like socio-economic status or country of origin to name 2 others.

WOKE Is all about an ideology of class, race, gender as being the center of one's focus rather than the individual and his/her beliefs. WOKE is about elevating the status of historically disadvantage or disenfranchised groups OVER those perceived to have created that disadvantage. WOKE is about creating more dissension and hatred among Americans rather than focus on a creating an equal society for all.

Not sure that I agree with this. There is so much misinformation about CRT, which mostly focuses on legal/institutional analysis and how race has impacted their structure and its effects. These have created disadvantages for large numbers of people based on non-individual characteristics.

I don’t think anyone is asking to be elevated. Most are asking for recognition of problems, the causes of those problems and maybe some movement to improve them.

Of particular concern is passage of laws targeted against certain groups at the state level. Additionally, there is concern over judicial cases spearheaded by conservative groups meant to undermine equal rights movements. Not sure how this is lending itself to any sort of equality.

 

[nimbus]

Not sure that I agree with this. There is so much misinformation about CRT, which mostly focuses on legal/institutional analysis and how race has impacted their structure and its effects. These have created disadvantages for large numbers of people based on non-individual characteristics.

I don’t think anyone is asking to be elevated. Most are asking for recognition of problems, the causes of those problems and maybe some movement to improve them.

Of particular concern is passage of laws targeted against certain groups at the state level. Additionally, there is concern over judicial cases spearheaded by conservative groups meant to undermine equal rights movements. Not sure how this is lending itself to any sort of equality.

Gerrymandering is a current day example.

 

[deleted1147063]

You seem to paint the left with the same broad brush you acute the left of painting the right with.

What is even sadder in the interactions in this forum are the psuedo intellectuals that claim to be “asking questions” or “contrarians” yet really have to substance to back up anything they say.

For example (in my newsfeed this morning):

Anthropology in Ruins — Minding The Campus

From November 10 to 13, I attended the annual meeting of the American Anthropological Association (AAA), which was held in Seattle, Washington. The AAA is the largest anthropological association in the world. It is a scholarly and professional organization, and three-quarters of its members are...

www.mindingthecampus.org

"It seems as if anthropology lies in ruins. Much has gone into the demolition work, including talks about oneself, an avoidance of traditional scientific methods, a lack of imagery, a preoccupation with current political fads, and a self-hatred of the field’s history."

Btw, above, I meant the radical left. There are a good number of moderate liberals on the left who don't recognize their own party anymore, same as moderate old-school republicans.

 

[deleted1147063]

No, you fon't need to forget history but rather learn from it. It's not that Conservatives don't see the racism of our past, that racism is quite obvious, but rather we focus on where we are today and where we should be in 5 years. That's why these lectures are about dividing Americans by race or gender or self-identity rather than focus on the individual. Race becomes the MOST important factor in a patient interaction when it should one factor among many like socio-economic status or country of origin to name 2 others.

WOKE Is all about an ideology of class, race, gender as being the center of one's focus rather than the individual and his/her beliefs. WOKE is about elevating the status of historically disadvantage or disenfranchised groups OVER those perceived to have created that disadvantage. WOKE is about creating more dissension and hatred among Americans rather than focus on a creating an equal society for all.

“It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”
- Ronald Reagan

 

[deleted1147063]

I agree with this. One thing I learned in medical school is how to pretend to listen to people who think they are doing a great service to humanity, whatever capacity that may be. Especially in the era of laptops and smartphones it’s super easy to ignore these people. They can’t test the material in any meaningful way so it’s all just filler, which there is a lot of in medicine to keep the 22% of gdp machine churning

Just file it under annoying/personally offensive/time wasting things to remember when it comes time to vote in the next election. That’s what I do and I just consider that my way of giving my opinion on these matters to people who will actually listen

Unfortunately, this is how it begins.

This works for a few times, but, if indoctrination is all you hear, and you keep hearing it again and again and again, and are required to continuously express your accord and support for those ideas, they will erode your own personal framework. It's called brainwashing for a reason, and the communists haven't been practicing it for more than 100 years because it doesn't work.

It's the simple psychological technique described by Cialdini when about making you sign a pledge of some kind on the street, for example that you are against animal cruelty. Of course you are. Then they ask you for money for the local zoo, two weeks later, and you are MUCH more likely to donate than if you hadn't signed the pledge. The human brain doesn't like having two contrary ideas at the same time. It's what Munger calls inconsistency-avoidance tendency.

The Revised Psychology of Human Misjudgment, by Charlie Munger

In The Psychology of Human Misjudgment, Charlie Munger explains why we behave the way we do. This is a transcript of the fully updated talk.

fs.blog

 

[deleted1147063]

People of color die sooner and suffer more preventable illnesses in our healthcare systems compared with white Americans — even in controlled studies that allow for variables such as age, location, education level, socioeconomic status, and total income.

The statistics reflect racial inequities in healthcare:

• A recent Cigna study found higher rates of cancer, diabetes, childhood obesity, and heart disease among Black Americans linked to the lack of economic resources, limited access to healthcare, and delay in treatment.
• Compared with white Americans, Black Americans die prematurely from all types of diseases, including diabetes, hypertension, strokes, and, more recently, COVID-19.
• Metrics such as the infant mortality gap and the maternal mortality gap reveal legacies and current practices of racial exclusion and discrimination in our health systems. Black newborns die 250% more often than white newborns in the United States. Black mothers are at least three times more likely than white mothers to die due to complications in childbirth.
• Black Americans between the ages of 18 and 49 are twice as likely as whites to die from heart disease.
• Predominantly Black ZIP codes are 67% more likely than other ZIP codes to lack adequate numbers of primary care physicians (PCPs), according to a 2012 study.
• Black Americans ultimately wait longer than white patients for life-saving treatments, such as initial EKGs.

Of course they will find this. But association doesn't mean causation. I doubt that these are related to race as much as they are related to income and poverty (far more). I doubt that Beyonce or Kanye have these problems. And I would be very surprised if poor whites don't have the same problems.

There are simply more poor people among blacks than whites (a lot related to education and the structure of black families). Again, Candace Owens says it better in Blackout.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Not sure that I agree with this. There is so much misinformation about CRT, which mostly focuses on legal/institutional analysis and how race has impacted their structure and its effects. These have created disadvantages for large numbers of people based on non-individual characteristics.

I don’t think anyone is asking to be elevated. Most are asking for recognition of problems, the causes of those problems and maybe some movement to improve them.

Of particular concern is passage of laws targeted against certain groups at the state level. Additionally, there is concern over judicial cases spearheaded by conservative groups meant to undermine equal rights movements. Not sure how this is lending itself to any sort of equality.

Here is the result of Jim Crow 2.0
or "Jim Crow Eagle" as Biden likes to call it:

Record Breaking Turnout in Georgia's Runoff Election | Georgia Secretary of State

Georgia voters came out in force in the 2022 midterm elections, shattering midterm turnout records...

www.sos.ga.gov

 

[ucladoc2b]

Here is the result of Jim Crow 2.0
or "Jim Crow Eagle" as Biden likes to call it:

Record Breaking Turnout in Georgia's Runoff Election | Georgia Secretary of State

Georgia voters came out in force in the 2022 midterm elections, shattering midterm turnout records...

www.sos.ga.gov

Glad people responded to the changes. They certainly did not make voter participation any easier.

 

[doctalaughs]

And that’s my point…there is so much blame on supposed “groupthink and indoctrination.” Little actual intelligent evidence in counterargument.

I’ve read evidence on both sides. In order to believe the anti woke crowd, I would have to forget substantial portions of US history, economic policy, voting rights, and major court cases. No reason to think it just went away one day.

Happy to listen to any evidence you may have that refutes it.

I’m glad you are open minded enough to hear arguments on the other side which is not the case for many.

Here’s the thing- if you are going to malign a whole system/profession/group — ie assert that the major reason for disparities in healthcare outcomes is due to racism within medicine — then the onus of proof is on YOUR side (and it better be current, overwhelming convincing, and based on great studies that establish causality not correlation).

There are parallels to the whole thing we went through (still going through) with policing. We have definitely convinced a whole generation that the police are overwhelmingly racist. Whether you believe the data shows this or not (and it’s NOT convincing IMO), it’s undeniable that this narrative has probably led to 1000x more death in the black/brown communities than any good it did, with the pullback in active policing, loss in morale and depletion/defunding of police forces leading to increasing crime in these areas. Unintended consequences — but directly affecting those who were most vulnerable.

I just hope the same thing doesn’t happen in medicine, given how hard it is to connect the dots of causality between racially disparate outcomes and actual racism.

 

[UscGhost]

The right does have a large audience, it’s just not you or your groupthink circle. And it’s censored/canceled in certain spaces so that you can only hear yourself.

What’s the substantial evidence for mostly #3 in my post above, and not #2 or #1?

If I said I have “substantial evidence” that black skin boosts your admissions chances to a top university or medical school by 250% when compared to a matched equal academic talent group for a white student, would it then justify me teaching a mandatory course about “systemic reverse white racism?” to everyone who came though medical school?

Probably not. I’m sure if that course was required though, it would be no big deal / “nothing to see here” from the left.

A simple example is medicaid cuts.

Medicaid cover 30% of blacks, 20% of Hispanics and 17% of whites.

Medicaid disproportionately covers minorities. Republican legislatures frequently reduce minority voting power via gerrymandering and then cut medicaid funding.

Are they strategizing about this at the local pointy white hat meeting? Probably not. Doesn't mean there isn't some level of system racism occurring here.

The posts on here seem to argue that because there isn't overt and obvious systemic racism then it must not be occurring at all. The precise reason we need classes and studies that look into this type of racism is because it's subtle and hidden within policies, funding disparities, and allocation of resources

 

[ucladoc2b]

I’m glad you are open minded enough to hear arguments on the other side which is not the case for many.

Here’s the thing- if you are going to malign a whole system/profession/group — ie assert that the major reason for disparities in healthcare outcomes is due to racism within medicine — then the onus of proof is on YOUR side (and it better be current, overwhelming convincing, and based on great studies that establish causality not correlation).

There are parallels to the whole thing we went through (still going through) with policing. We have definitely convinced a whole generation that the police are overwhelmingly racist. Whether you believe the data shows this or not (and it’s NOT convincing IMO), it’s undeniable that this narrative has probably led to 1000x more death in the black/brown communities than any good it did, with the pullback in active policing, loss in morale and depletion/defunding of police forces leading to increasing crime in these areas. Unintended consequences — but directly affecting those who were most vulnerable.

I just hope the same thing doesn’t happen in medicine, given how hard it is to connect the dots of causality between racially disparate outcomes and actual racism.

CRT really doesn’t assert that individual practitioners are all racist (or that cops are racist). But there are some who are. Unfortunately, some of these attitudes did find their way into policies we have. The theory basically states that there were some racist policies behind certain laws and development of institutions in this country. Is it the only thing? No of course not. But it’s hard to argue that there were none and that we are not seeing ongoing consequences of some of these laws and policies. It’s not a far fetched theory if you read some of the academic writings (and get away from the Fox News analysis). Most of the theories have robust historical record support and supported consequential analysis.

Always a good idea to look at our preconceived notions.

 

[doctalaughs]

CRT really doesn’t assert that individual practitioners are all racist (or that cops are racist). But there are some who are. Unfortunately, some of these attitudes did find their way into policies we have. The theory basically states that there were some racist policies behind certain laws and development of institutions in this country. Is it the only thing? No of course not. But it’s hard to argue that there were none and that we are not seeing ongoing consequences of some of these laws and policies. It’s not a far fetched theory if you read some of the academic writings (and get away from the Fox News analysis). Most of the theories have robust historical record support and supported consequential analysis.

Always a good idea to look at our preconceived notions.

What’s the point of a movement or theory if it causes more harm than good? Do you think the changes made to policing have saved more lives in vulnerable communities or lost more, honestly in these last few years?

Also, high level policies/laws are made by the highest echelons of people in power in our country. Aiming this CRT level stuff at students in college and even grade school has undoubtedly caused a major increase in polarization of our society—. I would argue it’s having the exact opposite of the intended consequence, while changing zero with those that write the laws/policies.

We already have laws against discrimination by race (except a few specific cases where it’s allowed like in affirmative action). How about we start by enforcing the existing laws so that if there is an institution violating them, they pay?

 

[tombreaz]

Washington U lecturer warns medical students not to ‘debate’ her on ‘systemic oppression': 'shut that' down | Fox News

A Washington University in St. Louis’ medical school lecturer told students that if anyone tried to "fight or debate" her on "systemic oppression," she would would shut it down.

www.foxnews.com

I don’t even understand why this is considered remotely part of any medical curriculum. Can’t we just say that racial disparities in outcomes exist and to be aware of that — and not move to “we know medicine has a really bad racism issue” which is totally political/ divisive.

When did medical training move from facts to indoctrination?

I've had my ability to comment on SDN threads removed multiple times without warning or reason-so this prof not wanting people to even debate her is alive and well in the SDN halls...

Feel free to go look at the other threads.

 

[tombreaz]

I think these are the things people worry about while they are shopping for their Trump NFT trading cards

Shopping? They sold out....quickly.

 

[ucladoc2b]

What’s the point of a movement or theory if it causes more harm than good? Do you think the changes made to policing have saved more lives in vulnerable communities or lost more, honestly in these last few years?

Also, high level policies/laws are made by the highest echelons of people in power in our country. Aiming this CRT level stuff at students in college and even grade school has undoubtedly caused a major increase in polarization of our society—. I would argue it’s having the exact opposite of the intended consequence, while changing zero with those that write the laws/policies.

We already have laws against discrimination by race (except a few specific cases where it’s allowed like in affirmative action). How about we start by enforcing the existing laws so that if there is an institution violating them, they pay?

1. Outside of Fox News, what is your evidence of harm exactly?

The answer to your questions aren’t known at this point.

2. I’m pretty sure CRT isn’t being taught in elementary schools. Way too complicated. Racial issues yes. And they should be. It’s an important part of US history.

3. There’s no one to prosecute. It’s baked into the policies that created them (like redlining, banking regs, an others). The only solution is recognize and issue and discuss change.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I've had my ability to comment on SDN threads removed multiple times without warning or reason-so this prof not wanting people to even debate her is alive and well in the SDN halls...

Feel free to go look at the other threads.

Because you do nothing but come on here and argue and multiple users have complained about it.

 

[GassYous]

Because you do nothing but come on here and argue and multiple users have complained about it.

Wash u alums?

 

[doctalaughs]

1. Outside of Fox News, what is your evidence of harm exactly?

Opinion | Good Policing Saves Black Lives

A report by Harvard’s Roland Fryer shows that when the cops pull back, homicides increase.

www.wsj.com

This is investigating a study from the Harvard economist who has one of the largest bodies of work on crime statistics (put some quotes in since it’s a paywall - but essentially says targeted investigations of bad cops needs to happen without vilifying the whole profession, which empirically then leads to a major spike in murders of mostly of black people due to skittish policing in those cities):

“In 2016 Mr. Fryer released a study of racial differences in police use of deadly force. To the surprise of the author, as well as many in the media and on the left who take racist law enforcement as a given, he found no evidence of bias in police shootings. His conclusions have been echoed by researchers at the University of Maryland and Michigan State University, who in a paper released last year wrote: “We didn’t find evidence for anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparity in police use of force across all shootings, and, if anything, found anti-White disparities when controlling for race-specific crime.”

“Mr. Fryer said in an interview that the new paper is an extension of his earlier research. Although it seemed clear to him that racial disparities in police shootings stemmed primarily from racial disparities in criminal behavior, police departments continued to be investigated, and he suspected these investigations weren’t having the intended effect. In fact, he noticed what he suspected was a pattern that warranted further study. After surveying more than two dozen federal and state probes of police departments across the country, the pattern became clear. When police were investigated following incidents of deadly force that had gone viral, police activity declined and violent crime spiked. It happened in Ferguson, Mo., after Michael Brown was shot by an officer. It happened in Chicago after a cop gunned down Laquan McDonald. And it occurred in Baltimore after Freddie Gray died in police custody.”

 

[nimbus]

Wash u alums?

Most of the commenters in this thread have or had zero chance of ever attending WashU. Students there are smart fully formed adults and are at low risk of indoctrination. They will likely play along or meet a fate similar to Kieran Bhattacharya. Anyway, from a practical perspective, the discussion is moot.

Judge rejects suit: Ex-UVA student said he was suspended for comments on microaggressions

UVA countered that it dismissed Bhattacharya because of his threatening behavior and mental health concerns.

richmond.com

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Gerrymandering is a current day example.

And historical.