This is the stuff they teach in medical school now

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This is investigating a study from the Harvard economist who has one of the largest bodies of work on crime statistics (put some quotes in since it’s a paywall - but essentially says targeted investigations of bad cops needs to happen without vilifying the whole profession, which empirically then leads to a major spike in murders of mostly of black people due to skittish policing in those cities):

“In 2016 Mr. Fryer released a study of racial differences in police use of deadly force. To the surprise of the author, as well as many in the media and on the left who take racist law enforcement as a given, he found no evidence of bias in police shootings. His conclusions have been echoed by researchers at the University of Maryland and Michigan State University, who in a paper released last year wrote: “We didn’t find evidence for anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparity in police use of force across all shootings, and, if anything, found anti-White disparities when controlling for race-specific crime.”

“Mr. Fryer said in an interview that the new paper is an extension of his earlier research. Although it seemed clear to him that racial disparities in police shootings stemmed primarily from racial disparities in criminal behavior, police departments continued to be investigated, and he suspected these investigations weren’t having the intended effect. In fact, he noticed what he suspected was a pattern that warranted further study. After surveying more than two dozen federal and state probes of police departments across the country, the pattern became clear. When police were investigated following incidents of deadly force that had gone viral, police activity declined and violent crime spiked. It happened in Ferguson, Mo., after Michael Brown was shot by an officer. It happened in Chicago after a cop gunned down Laquan McDonald. And it occurred in Baltimore after Freddie Gray died in police custody.”

WSJ Opinion Page = Fox News (although the reporting side of the WSJ is excellent)


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Because you do nothing but come on here and argue and multiple users have complained about it.
Have you restricted comment on those who have engaged in argument with me? Have you restricted yours? I see you arguing very frequently. C'mon, Arch. What a response. I mean really...arguments are all over SDN-and that's fine. You limit mine because I don't line up with your arguments. Glad you openly admitted it, though. That's the first step.
 
Most of the commenters in this thread have or had zero chance of ever attending WashU. Students there are smart fully formed adults and are at low risk of indoctrination. They will likely play along or meet a fate similar to Kieran Bhattacharya. Anyway, from a practical perspective, the discussion is moot.


They are already indoctrinated before they arrive on campus hence no need to indoctrinate. Everything just confirms what they already believe.
 
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Have you restricted comment on those who have engaged in argument with me? Have you restricted yours? I see you arguing very frequently. C'mon, Arch. What a response. I mean really...arguments are all over SDN-and that's fine. You limit mine because I don't line up with your arguments. Glad you openly admitted it, though. That's the first step.

You’re an undergrad trying to get into medical school. You come to this forum to grind your political axe. You present one and only one side of an argument - consistently. Have you contributed otherwise?

Were you to try these antics on any other SDN physician sub forum you’d already be banned. You’re entitled to nothing here. Our mods owe you nothing. No different than some liberal undergrad strolling through.
 
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I guess any source that doesn’t fit your narrative is discarded. What about the actual studies that this article is reporting on? Also not worth considering / not real?

An Oped, especially from the WSJ, is not the same level of evidence. Key word is opinion. The standard for fact checking is much higher in their news reporting. Not so much in their opinion section (I have a subscription and read them regularly). This is in the face of several other studies reaching similar conclusions to the study I cited.

Personally, I am an open slate. I rely on the same evidence standards for both sides. One clearly is superior in that regard.
 
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Call yourself an “American”? Please don’t. Better to say “U.S. citizen,” per the bias hunters, lest you slight the rest of the Americas. “Immigrant” is also out, with “person who has immigrated” as the approved alternative. It’s the iron law of academic writing: Why use one word when four will do?

You can’t “master” your subject at Stanford any longer; in case you hadn’t heard, the school instructs that “historically, masters enslaved people.” And don’t dare design a “blind study,” which “unintentionally perpetuates that disability is somehow abnormal or negative, furthering an ableist culture.” Blind studies are good and useful, but never mind; “masked study” is to be preferred. Follow the science.

“Gangbusters” is banned because the index says it “invokes the notion of police action against ‘gangs’ in a positive light, which may have racial undertones.” Not to beat a dead horse (a phrase that the index says “normalizes violence against animals”), but you used to have to get a graduate degree in the humanities to write something that stupid.

The Elimination of Harmful Language Initiative is a “multi-phase” project of Stanford’s IT leaders. The list took “18 months of collaboration with stakeholder groups” to produce, the university tells us. We can’t imagine what’s next, except that it will surely involve more make-work for more administrators, whose proliferation has driven much of the rise in college tuition and student debt. For 16,937 students, Stanford lists 2,288 faculty and 15,750 administrative staff.

The list was prefaced with (to use another forbidden word) a trigger warning: “This website contains language that is offensive or harmful. Please engage with this website at your own pace.”
 
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You’re an undergrad trying to get into medical school. You come to this forum to grind your political axe. You present one and only one side of an argument - consistently. Have you contributed otherwise?

Were you to try these antics on any other SDN physician sub forum you’d already be banned. You’re entitled to nothing here. Our mods owe you nothing. No different than some liberal undergrad strolling through.
I'm a non-trad. Graduated last summer-yes, trying to get into medical school, thanks for the encouragement. I came here for the school forums and then stumbled upon all the others. I post on things that interest me and argue for points that I think hold merit. Acting as if that's not allowed and something you don't engage in shows some immaturity in your character. The stereotype of some docs having a god-complex might be a much needed thread.

Mods owe the community they moderate consistency at the very least.
 
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I have always considered SDN to be a resource for students and residents. I hang out here occasionally to share things here and there. To suggest that students and their opinions are not welcome seems counter to why SDN exists. They should be silenced if they are violating rules but equal and consistent treatment seems fair.

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Mods owe the community they moderate consistency at the very least.
You are free to go if you don’t like it.

Complaints are received, other mods give input and myself or pgg act accordingly. This forum is for physicians and residents, not axe grinders who post nothing clinically relevant.

More leeway is given in this forum than any other.

I do post about some political issues sometimes just to provide another view from the right wing echo chamber. Do my best not to let it color other interactions.
 
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You are free to go if you don’t like it.

Complaints are received, other mods give input and myself or pgg act accordingly. This forum is for physicians and residents, not axe grinders who post nothing clinically relevant.

More leeway is given in this forum than any other.

I do post about some political issues sometimes just to provide another view from the right wing echo chamber. Do my best not to let it color other interactions.
Thanks for the permission to leave. I didn't know I had that option available to me. I'll have to think about it for awhile and get some advice.

The forum isn't for pre-meds as well? Well dang, Arch, I guess you'll have to delete a large percentage of the threads-the main reason I joined was to see the schools I applied to! What a thing to say... smh

Sure, I grind my axe from now and then but at least I don't pretend that I don't even own one.

More leeway here? What are you talking about? I'm on Facebook, Reddit, and Twitter and this is the only place I get random bans with no communication.

Oh, and I have posted clinically relevant topics. Needing to know if someone has a penis or vagina has decision making relevance, as you know.
 
The best part about the WSJ opinion page is that this all-time great headline existed because of them



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You're mistaken.

I pay for the WSJ especially for the Opinion page, and I don't watch/like Fox.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here man. I pay for the WSJ and WaPost (though I may change that to NYT next month as I haven't been super impressed).

The WSJ opinion page is about on par with Fox. In fact they share many of the same people.
 
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I'm going to have to disagree with you here man. I pay for the WSJ and WaPost (though I may change that to NYT next month as I haven't been super impressed).

The WSJ opinion page is about on par with Fox. In fact they share many of the same people.
I pay for the WaPo(o) toilet paper, too (this is my last year). I think I read it twice in a year. It's such an echo chamber, like the toilet paper "of record".

Unless one leans strongly progressive and PC, I strongly recommend against both of them. The Atlantic is another one that went craZy at some point, although recently I have read some decent articles, again (though I'm done with subscribing to them).

The WSJ for $4/month is worth every penny. They even have easy online cancellation for digital, like the WaPoo. Pity that the FT costs an arm and a leg.
 
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Call yourself an “American”? Please don’t. Better to say “U.S. citizen,” per the bias hunters, lest you slight the rest of the Americas. “Immigrant” is also out, with “person who has immigrated” as the approved alternative. It’s the iron law of academic writing: Why use one word when four will do?

You can’t “master” your subject at Stanford any longer; in case you hadn’t heard, the school instructs that “historically, masters enslaved people.” And don’t dare design a “blind study,” which “unintentionally perpetuates that disability is somehow abnormal or negative, furthering an ableist culture.” Blind studies are good and useful, but never mind; “masked study” is to be preferred. Follow the science.

“Gangbusters” is banned because the index says it “invokes the notion of police action against ‘gangs’ in a positive light, which may have racial undertones.” Not to beat a dead horse (a phrase that the index says “normalizes violence against animals”), but you used to have to get a graduate degree in the humanities to write something that stupid.

The Elimination of Harmful Language Initiative is a “multi-phase” project of Stanford’s IT leaders. The list took “18 months of collaboration with stakeholder groups” to produce, the university tells us. We can’t imagine what’s next, except that it will surely involve more make-work for more administrators, whose proliferation has driven much of the rise in college tuition and student debt. For 16,937 students, Stanford lists 2,288 faculty and 15,750 administrative staff.

The list was prefaced with (to use another forbidden word) a trigger warning: “This website contains language that is offensive or harmful. Please engage with this website at your own pace.”
I just want to point out the hilarity that Stanford is trying to ban all these words but used the word "stakeholder" in its own publication.
 
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I pay for the WaPo(o) toilet paper, too (this is my last year). I think I read it twice in a year. It's such an echo chamber, like the toilet paper "of record".

Unless one leans strongly progressive and PC, I strongly recommend against both of them. The Atlantic is another one that went craZy at some point, although recently I have read some decent articles, again (though I'm done with subscribing to them).

The WSJ for $4/month is worth every penny. They even have easy online cancellation for digital, like the WaPoo. Pity that the FT costs an arm and a leg.
Both papers do pretty good investigative reporting fairly frequently (the the NYT is I think better at it outside of pure DC political stuff). Plus it is nice to see what both sides are saying.

The Atlantic gives you I think 5 free articles per month which is plenty for me.
 
Both papers do pretty good investigative reporting fairly frequently (the the NYT is I think better at it outside of pure DC political stuff). Plus it is nice to see what both sides are saying.

The Atlantic gives you I think 5 free articles per month which is plenty for me.

I pay for both WSJ and NYT. I peruse both fox and CNN just to see what the propaganda is on both sides. Even they occasionally have non-trash stuff and it’s good to see what most people consume on both sides.
 
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I pay for both WSJ and NYT. I peruse both fox and CNN just to see what the propaganda is on both sides. Even they occasionally have non-trash stuff and it’s good to see what most people consume on both sides.

This is pretty much what I do and honestly it’s easy to see the lies these factions tell themselves on a regular basis. I don’t have a solution
 
This is pretty much what I do and honestly it’s easy to see the lies these factions tell themselves on a regular basis. I don’t have a solution
“It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”

― Ronald Reagan
 
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An Oped, especially from the WSJ, is not the same level of evidence. Key word is opinion. The standard for fact checking is much higher in their news reporting. Not so much in their opinion section (I have a subscription and read them regularly). This is in the face of several other studies reaching similar conclusions to the study I cited.

Personally, I am an open slate. I rely on the same evidence standards for both sides. One clearly is superior in that regard.

For those that actually care about data - here are the actual studies those pieces were based on. Pretty impressive and comprehensive work, IMO.



As I said- makes you question the nationwide (and widely accepted) narrative that there is rampant systemic racism among police, rather than a few bad apples. Also shows what the cost of this questionable narrative is (estimated to be 900+ excess deaths, mostly black, due to pullback in policing in just FIVE cities).

Just another reason to question that systemic racism is currently built into this country and it’s institutions.
 
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An Oped, especially from the WSJ, is not the same level of evidence. Key word is opinion. The standard for fact checking is much higher in their news reporting. Not so much in their opinion section (I have a subscription and read them regularly). This is in the face of several other studies reaching similar conclusions to the study I cited.

Personally, I am an open slate. I rely on the same evidence standards for both sides. One clearly is superior in that regard.
I don't take any newspaper reporting as evidence, just as alternative points of view. Definitely when it's an Opinion page.

And your last line is a contradiction. 😉

Btw, social "sciences" are among the most corrupt field of "research" I have ever seen, because there is so much political correctness and unpunished bias. So I am careful with the "evidence" I believe.
 
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For those that actually care about data - here are the actual studies those pieces were based on. Pretty impressive and comprehensive work, IMO.



As I said- makes you question the nationwide (and widely accepted) narrative that there is rampant systemic racism among police, rather than a few bad apples. Also shows what the cost of this questionable narrative is (estimated to be 900+ excess deaths, mostly black, due to pullback in policing in just FIVE cities).

Just another reason to question that systemic racism is currently built into this country and it’s institutions.

Unfortunately, I’m not sure those papers support the conclusions you make.

The first paper shows that there may be an increase in crime after a highly publicized police incident. It doesn’t really address any questions around bias of the incidents. Additionally, if there is any increase in crime, should there be an emphasis on decreasing those incidents?

From the second paper:

“On non-lethal uses of force, there are racial di↵erences – sometimes quite large – in police use of force, even after accounting for a large set of controls designed to account for important contextual and behavioral factors at the time of the police-civilian interaction. Interestingly, as use of force increases from putting hands on a civilian to striking them with a baton, the overall probability of such an incident occurring decreases dramatically but the racial difference remains roughly constant. Even when officers report civilians have been compliant and no arrest was made, blacks are 21.2 percent more likely to endure some form of force in an interaction.”

Edit: Fryer sums it up here.

 
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I don't take any newspaper reporting as evidence, just as alternative points of view. Definitely when it's an Opinion page.

And your last line is a contradiction. 😉

Btw, social "sciences" are among the most corrupt field of "research" I have ever seen, because there is so much political correctness and unpunished bias. So I am careful with the "evidence" I believe.
Speaking of corrupt fields of research, have you seen some of the fake articles that ended up being taken seriously and published in some of the social science fields? Not only is it comedy gold but it shows that absolute ridiculousness of some of the people that head these publications.
 
Unfortunately, I’m not sure those papers support the conclusions you make.

The first paper shows that there may be an increase in crime after a highly publicized police incident. It doesn’t really address any questions around bias of the incidents. Additionally, if there is any increase in crime, should there be an emphasis on decreasing those incidents?

From the second paper:

“On non-lethal uses of force, there are racial di↵erences – sometimes quite large – in police use of force, even after accounting for a large set of controls designed to account for important contextual and behavioral factors at the time of the police-civilian interaction. Interestingly, as use of force increases from putting hands on a civilian to striking them with a baton, the overall probability of such an incident occurring decreases dramatically but the racial difference remains roughly constant. Even when officers report civilians have been compliant and no arrest was made, blacks are 21.2 percent more likely to endure some form of force in an interaction.”

Edit: Fryer sums it up here.



The whole video is good but there are timestamps toward the end that discuss blacks and cops.
 
He’s highly biased.
He's probably more left wing than you, so I agree, highly biased. But his logic and argumentation are on point. Do you not know who he is? Liberal philosophy prof at Oregon State for years. Had to resign as they took away his academic freedom. Now he does things like this-open and honest conversations and thinking through our thinking. Something all people, especially doctors, should appreciate.
 
Unfortunately, I’m not sure those papers support the conclusions you make.

The first paper shows that there may be an increase in crime after a highly publicized police incident. It doesn’t really address any questions around bias of the incidents. Additionally, if there is any increase in crime, should there be an emphasis on decreasing those incidents?

From the second paper:

“On non-lethal uses of force, there are racial di↵erences – sometimes quite large – in police use of force, even after accounting for a large set of controls designed to account for important contextual and behavioral factors at the time of the police-civilian interaction. Interestingly, as use of force increases from putting hands on a civilian to striking them with a baton, the overall probability of such an incident occurring decreases dramatically but the racial difference remains roughly constant. Even when officers report civilians have been compliant and no arrest was made, blacks are 21.2 percent more likely to endure some form of force in an interaction.”

Edit: Fryer sums it up here.


You cut off the majority of the papers conclusions in favor of the snippet you wanted. Here’s the whole thing for those that don’t want to read the long methods and statistical analysis:


Conclusion (starting from where you cut it off):
Yet, on the most extreme use of force – officer-involved shootings – we are unable to detect any racial differences in either the raw data or when accounting for controls.
We argue that these facts are most consistent with a model of taste-based discrimination in which police officers face discretely higher costs for officer-involved shootings relative to non-lethal uses of force. This model is consistent with racial differences in the average returns to compliant behaviors, the results of our tests of discrimination based on Knowles, Persico, and Todd (2001) and Anwar and Fang (2006), and the fact that the odds-ratio is large and significant across all intensities of force – even after accounting for a rich set of controls. In the end, however, without randomly assigning race, we have no definitive proof of discrimination. Our results are also consistent with mismeasured contextual factors.
As police departments across America consider models of community policing such as the Boston Ten Point Coalition, body worn cameras, or training designed to purge ocers of implicit bias, our results point to another simple policy experiment: increase the expected price of excessive force
39

on lower level uses of force. To date, very few police departments across the country either collect data on lower level uses of force or explicitly punish officers for misuse of these tactics.
The appealing feature of this type of policy experiment is that it does not require officers to change their behavior in extremely high-stakes environments. Many arguments about police reform fall victim to the “my life versus theirs, us versus them” mantra. Holding officers accountable for the misuse of hands or pushing individuals to the ground is not likely a life or death situation and, as such, may be more amenable to policy change.
****
The importance of our results for racial inequality in America is unclear. It is plausible that racial differences in lower level uses of force are simply a distraction and movements such as Black Lives Matter should seek solutions within their own communities rather than changing the behaviors of police and other external forces.
Much more troubling, due to their frequency and potential impact on minority belief formation, is the possibility that racial differences in police use of non-lethal force has spillovers on myriad dimensions of racial inequality. If, for instance, blacks use their lived experience with police as evidence that the world is discriminatory, then it is easy to understand why black youth invest less in human capital or black adults are more likely to believe discrimination is an important determinant of economic outcomes. Black Dignity Matters


“Conclusion
Rooting out bias and ensuring constitutional policing is one of the most important issues of our time. Pattern-or-practice investigations – a way to police the police – are a key tool to accomplish this. On average these investigations have negligible impacts on subsequent homicide or total crime rates. But, as we have illustrated throughout, this aggregate number masks important heterogeneity.
The incident that sparks an investigation into a police department is an important determinant of how the investigation will impact policing and crime. For investigations that are sparked by mostly civilian complaints, allegations, lawsuits or media reports of excessive force, investigations caused a statistically significant decline in homicide and total crime rates. These investigations saved lives – 61 per investigation, in the 24 months following investigations.
For the five investigations that were sparked by nationally visible incidents of deadly use of force – Baltimore, Chicago, Cincinnati, Ferguson and Riverside– investigations cause statistically significant increases in both homicide and total crime. Contrary to other investigations, investiga- tions during this time lost lives – 179 of them, per investigation, in the 24 months following the start of the investigation. That’s 893 total. Almost 900 individuals whose potential may not have been realized. And, we are still counting. A back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that these five cities converge to pre-investigation levels 51 months after the investigation and, by that time, almost 1214 excess homicides will have occurred.
33

The leading theory for why some investigations have led to an increase in crimes is a striking decrease in the quantity of police activity – which is evident in all cities we were able to collect data. All other theories considered contradict the data in important ways, though lack of complete data makes definitive conclusions illusive.
It is important to emphasize, however, that neither our data nor our analysis makes any claim regarding the net social cost or benefit of pattern-or-practice investigations. That’s well beyond the scope of this paper. Indeed, many argue that the federal government has been an important catalyst for greater equality in housing, labor markets, marriage, and voting rights.
Despite the lack of welfare analysis, we hope these results encourage introspection on the trade- offs involved when we increase scrutiny on police departments, particularly in the midst of civil unrest. The social objective is to eliminate bias without causing police to retreat from activities that suppress crime, and save lives. A troubling possibility is that the types of police activities that keep crime rates low are inherently unconstitutional and hence we face a tradeoff between allowing uncomfortable amounts of police bias and reducing crime in the very communities which are most impacted by that bias.
One way forward is to design a set of incentives such that we increase the penalties of uncon- stitutional policing and, simultaneously, lower the probability of being wrongfully accused when controversial interactions occur. In this sense, we might keep the expected price of policing constant for officers. There is no free lunch. If the price of policing increases, officers are rational to retreat. And, retreating disproportionately costs black lives”
 
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You cut off the majority of the papers conclusions in favor of the snippet you wanted. Here’s the whole thing for those that don’t want to read the long methods and statistical analysis:


Conclusion (starting from where you cut it off):
Yet, on the most extreme use of force – officer-involved shootings – we are unable to detect any racial differences in either the raw data or when accounting for controls.
We argue that these facts are most consistent with a model of taste-based discrimination in which police officers face discretely higher costs for officer-involved shootings relative to non-lethal uses of force. This model is consistent with racial differences in the average returns to compliant behaviors, the results of our tests of discrimination based on Knowles, Persico, and Todd (2001) and Anwar and Fang (2006), and the fact that the odds-ratio is large and significant across all intensities of force – even after accounting for a rich set of controls. In the end, however, without randomly assigning race, we have no definitive proof of discrimination. Our results are also consistent with mismeasured contextual factors.
As police departments across America consider models of community policing such as the Boston Ten Point Coalition, body worn cameras, or training designed to purge ocers of implicit bias, our results point to another simple policy experiment: increase the expected price of excessive force
39

on lower level uses of force. To date, very few police departments across the country either collect data on lower level uses of force or explicitly punish officers for misuse of these tactics.
The appealing feature of this type of policy experiment is that it does not require officers to change their behavior in extremely high-stakes environments. Many arguments about police reform fall victim to the “my life versus theirs, us versus them” mantra. Holding officers accountable for the misuse of hands or pushing individuals to the ground is not likely a life or death situation and, as such, may be more amenable to policy change.
****
The importance of our results for racial inequality in America is unclear. It is plausible that racial differences in lower level uses of force are simply a distraction and movements such as Black Lives Matter should seek solutions within their own communities rather than changing the behaviors of police and other external forces.
Much more troubling, due to their frequency and potential impact on minority belief formation, is the possibility that racial differences in police use of non-lethal force has spillovers on myriad dimensions of racial inequality. If, for instance, blacks use their lived experience with police as evidence that the world is discriminatory, then it is easy to understand why black youth invest less in human capital or black adults are more likely to believe discrimination is an important determinant of economic outcomes. Black Dignity Matters


“Conclusion
Rooting out bias and ensuring constitutional policing is one of the most important issues of our time. Pattern-or-practice investigations – a way to police the police – are a key tool to accomplish this. On average these investigations have negligible impacts on subsequent homicide or total crime rates. But, as we have illustrated throughout, this aggregate number masks important heterogeneity.
The incident that sparks an investigation into a police department is an important determinant of how the investigation will impact policing and crime. For investigations that are sparked by mostly civilian complaints, allegations, lawsuits or media reports of excessive force, investigations caused a statistically significant decline in homicide and total crime rates. These investigations saved lives – 61 per investigation, in the 24 months following investigations.
For the five investigations that were sparked by nationally visible incidents of deadly use of force – Baltimore, Chicago, Cincinnati, Ferguson and Riverside– investigations cause statistically significant increases in both homicide and total crime. Contrary to other investigations, investiga- tions during this time lost lives – 179 of them, per investigation, in the 24 months following the start of the investigation. That’s 893 total. Almost 900 individuals whose potential may not have been realized. And, we are still counting. A back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that these five cities converge to pre-investigation levels 51 months after the investigation and, by that time, almost 1214 excess homicides will have occurred.
33

The leading theory for why some investigations have led to an increase in crimes is a striking decrease in the quantity of police activity – which is evident in all cities we were able to collect data. All other theories considered contradict the data in important ways, though lack of complete data makes definitive conclusions illusive.
It is important to emphasize, however, that neither our data nor our analysis makes any claim regarding the net social cost or benefit of pattern-or-practice investigations. That’s well beyond the scope of this paper. Indeed, many argue that the federal government has been an important catalyst for greater equality in housing, labor markets, marriage, and voting rights.
Despite the lack of welfare analysis, we hope these results encourage introspection on the trade- offs involved when we increase scrutiny on police departments, particularly in the midst of civil unrest. The social objective is to eliminate bias without causing police to retreat from activities that suppress crime, and save lives. A troubling possibility is that the types of police activities that keep crime rates low are inherently unconstitutional and hence we face a tradeoff between allowing uncomfortable amounts of police bias and reducing crime in the very communities which are most impacted by that bias.
One way forward is to design a set of incentives such that we increase the penalties of uncon- stitutional policing and, simultaneously, lower the probability of being wrongfully accused when controversial interactions occur. In this sense, we might keep the expected price of policing constant for officers. There is no free lunch. If the price of policing increases, officers are rational to retreat. And, retreating disproportionately costs black lives”

I posted an actual OpEd from the actual researcher in which he comes to the same conclusions when analyzing his data. The whole point is that those papers do not provide evidence to refute the argument that there is no bias.
 
I posted an actual OpEd from the actual researcher in which he comes to the same conclusions when analyzing his data. The whole point is that those papers do not provide evidence to refute the argument that there is no bias.

Yes I read the op-ed. He explicitly states:

“Racism may explain the findings, but the statistical evidence doesn’t prove it. As economists, we don’t get to label unexplained racial disparities “racism.””

I’m not arguing that racism doesn’t exist or there is zero possibility of any effect of systemic racism in our current system. What I’m saying is that contrary to your (and liberal media) assertions that systemic racism is a major /dominant cause of disparities, the best objective studies/evidence do not clearly show this causation, and that disparities cannot be used as an argument alone. Often an deeper analysis does not support this.

Which is why teaching CRT based on poorly-thought-out arguments is silly, if not harmful to society. The effects of turning the population against the police, or the medical community may far outweigh any doubtful benefits. Sure, I can ignore this stuff (it affects me zero) but to claim that poor/minority populations are not harmed is contrary to the data.
 
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Yes I read the op-ed. He explicitly states:

“Racism may explain the findings, but the statistical evidence doesn’t prove it. As economists, we don’t get to label unexplained racial disparities “racism.””

I’m not arguing that racism doesn’t exist or there is zero possibility of any effect of systemic racism in our current system. What I’m saying is that contrary to your (and liberal media) assertions that systemic racism is a major /dominant cause of disparities, the best objective studies/evidence do not clearly show this causation, and that disparities cannot be used as an argument alone. Often an deeper analysis does not support this.

Which is why teaching CRT based on poorly-thought-out arguments is silly, if not harmful to society. The effects of turning the population against the police, or the medical community may far outweigh any doubtful benefits. Sure, I can ignore this stuff (it affects me zero) but to claim that poor/minority populations are not harmed is contrary to the data.

I haven’t argued that at all. All I keep arguing is that there is evidence of policy and it’s results may have had an impact on certain populations. It’s worth further investigation. Unfortunately, because racial issues are a significant part of the history of this country, it would be a inappropriate to leave them out of the school curriculum. And that it the aim of several conservative pundits and leaders.
 
For those that actually care about data - here are the actual studies those pieces were based on. Pretty impressive and comprehensive work, IMO.



As I said- makes you question the nationwide (and widely accepted) narrative that there is rampant systemic racism among police, rather than a few bad apples. Also shows what the cost of this questionable narrative is (estimated to be 900+ excess deaths, mostly black, due to pullback in policing in just FIVE cities).

Just another reason to question that systemic racism is currently built into this country and it’s institutions.

Anyone who actually took a minute and thought critically would realize this whole concept of police being virulently racist across the country in various locations and completely separate police departments doesn't make sense.

LAPD for example is mainly composed of minorities, (Hispanic, Black, and Asian officers).

Are there areas of improvement? Sure but let's not make it seem like they're klansmen.
 
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Anyone who actually took a minute and thought critically would realize this whole concept of police being virulently racist across the country in various locations and completely separate police departments doesn't make sense.

LAPD for example is mainly composed of minorities, (Hispanic, Black, and Asian officers).

Are there areas of improvement? Sure but let's not make it seem like they're klansmen.
NFL is racist, yet most players are black.
 
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Yes I read the op-ed. He explicitly states:

“Racism may explain the findings, but the statistical evidence doesn’t prove it. As economists, we don’t get to label unexplained racial disparities “racism.””

I’m not arguing that racism doesn’t exist or there is zero possibility of any effect of systemic racism in our current system. What I’m saying is that contrary to your (and liberal media) assertions that systemic racism is a major /dominant cause of disparities, the best objective studies/evidence do not clearly show this causation, and that disparities cannot be used as an argument alone. Often an deeper analysis does not support this.

Which is why teaching CRT based on poorly-thought-out arguments is silly, if not harmful to society. The effects of turning the population against the police, or the medical community may far outweigh any doubtful benefits. Sure, I can ignore this stuff (it affects me zero) but to claim that poor/minority populations are not harmed is contrary to the data.

I think it's funny you put "best objective studies" in bold when there are, in fact, serious methodologic problems with racial bias in police encounter studies.


2020
Concern over racial bias in policing, and the public availability of large administrative data sets documenting police–civilian interactions, have prompted a raft of studies attempting to quantify the effect of civilian race on law enforcement behavior. These studies consider a range of outcomes including ticketing, stop duration, searches, and the use of force (e.g., Antonovics and Knight Reference Antonovics and Knight2009; Fryer Reference Fryer2019; Ridgeway Reference Ridgeway2006; Nix et al. Reference Nix, Campbell, Byers and Alpert2017). Most research in this area attempts to adjust for omitted variables that may correlate with suspect race and the outcome of interest. In contrast, this study addresses a more fundamental problem that remains even if the vexing issue of omitted variable bias is solved: the inevitable statistical bias that results from studying racial discrimination using records that are themselves the product of racial discrimination (Angrist and Pischke Reference Angrist and Pischke2008; Elwert and Winship Reference Elwert and Winship2014; Rosenbaum Reference Rosenbaum1984). We show that when there is any racial discrimination in the decision to detain civilians—a decision that determines which encounters appear in police administrative data at all—then estimates of the effect of civilian race on subsequent police behavior are biased absent additional data and/or strong and untestable assumptions.


The tldr is that there is no adequate statistical noodling that compensates for the significant underlying selection bias which creates the encounter pool that's being analyzed.
 
I haven’t argued that at all. All I keep arguing is that there is evidence of policy and it’s results may have had an impact on certain populations. It’s worth further investigation. Unfortunately, because racial issues are a significant part of the history of this country, it would be a inappropriate to leave them out of the school curriculum. And that it the aim of several conservative pundits and leaders.
Show me one conservative leader that wants accurate racial history taken out of schools. You're either lying or have been swept up in one if you really think that. I'm probably more right than most on this forum and do not want, would not support, and have never heard any of the conservatives I follow suggest that.
 
Show me one conservative leader that wants accurate racial history taken out of schools.
accurate racial history
there's the rub

A whole lot of the South still unironically uses phrases like "War Of Northern Aggression" and "heritage not hate" ... and a whole lot of conservative politicians talk about preserving 1960s-era Civil War monuments in the name of "history" ...

A whole lot of conservatives have a different idea of what accurate means.
 
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there's the rub

A whole lot of the South still unironically uses phrases like "War Of Northern Aggression" and "heritage not hate" ... and a whole lot of conservative politicians talk about preserving 1960s-era Civil War monuments in the name of "history" ...

A whole lot of conservatives have a different idea of what accurate means.
Rub? What rub? He (or she) ((or they??!?)) (((JK :) )))

The poster asserted a big claim. If true, there should be some evidence. You gave none but some more generic left wing opinion. Post me an article of any prominent conservative leader that wants to take racial history out of the school.

There's a reason you didn't post it in your previous reply....
 
Rub? What rub? He (or she) ((or they??!?)) (((JK :) )))

The poster asserted a big claim. If true, there should be some evidence. You gave none but some more generic left wing opinion. Post me an article of any prominent conservative leader that wants to take racial history out of the school.

There's a reason you didn't post it in your previous reply....

Enjoy…

 
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I think it's funny you put "best objective studies" in bold when there are, in fact, serious methodologic problems with racial bias in police encounter studies.

2020​
Concern over racial bias in policing, and the public availability of large administrative data sets documenting police–civilian interactions, have prompted a raft of studies attempting to quantify the effect of civilian race on law enforcement behavior. These studies consider a range of outcomes including ticketing, stop duration, searches, and the use of force (e.g., Antonovics and Knight Reference Antonovics and Knight2009; Fryer Reference Fryer2019; Ridgeway Reference Ridgeway2006; Nix et al. Reference Nix, Campbell, Byers and Alpert2017). Most research in this area attempts to adjust for omitted variables that may correlate with suspect race and the outcome of interest. In contrast, this study addresses a more fundamental problem that remains even if the vexing issue of omitted variable bias is solved: the inevitable statistical bias that results from studying racial discrimination using records that are themselves the product of racial discrimination (Angrist and Pischke Reference Angrist and Pischke2008; Elwert and Winship Reference Elwert and Winship2014; Rosenbaum Reference Rosenbaum1984). We show that when there is any racial discrimination in the decision to detain civilians—a decision that determines which encounters appear in police administrative data at all—then estimates of the effect of civilian race on subsequent police behavior are biased absent additional data and/or strong and untestable assumptions.​

The tldr is that there is no adequate statistical noodling that compensates for the significant underlying selection bias which creates the encounter pool that's being analyzed.

That is a valid point but doesn’t mean we have better data to then jump to a conclusion of systemic racism in any of these studies.

In addition, I find the inherent suggestion in this cited study that the majority of police violence starts with a casual observation/ decision to make a civilian stop somewhat simplistic — and defies common sense. Wouldn’t you think the vast majority of situations that result in violence between police and civilians are called in and the officers are responding to a possible crime in progress?
 
That is a valid point but doesn’t mean we have better data to then jump to a conclusion of systemic racism in any of these studies.

In addition, I find the inherent suggestion in this cited study that the majority of police violence starts with a casual observation/ decision to make a civilian stop somewhat simplistic — and defies common sense. Wouldn’t you think the vast majority of situations that result in violence between police and civilians are called in and the officers are responding to a possible crime in progress?

I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions. After all, there are studies where if you look at fatal shooting occurrence rates in unarmed folks, black people are 3x more likely to be killed by police than whites. That's with controlling for crime commission rates by race.

That's far from a slam dunk on its own, but you combine that with the significant enforcement and sentencing disparities (like crack vs powder cocaine or the numerous instances where black people receive harsher sentences for the same crime compared to white controls), and the evidence of systemic racism in criminal justice becomes pretty apparent.
 
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I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions. After all, there are studies where if you look at fatal shooting occurrence rates in unarmed folks, black people are 3x more likely to be killed by police than whites. That's with controlling for crime commission rates by race.

Hmm, that seems to pretty much contradict the more recent Fryer paper which concludes there is no difference in overall police shootings by race (unless somehow it’s only the subset of fatal unarmed shootings which differ so widely, which doesn’t really make much sense?).

“Where we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with police where lethal force may have been justified – we find, after controlling for suspect demographics, officer demographics, encounter characteristics, suspect weapon and year fixed effects, that blacks are 27.4 percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to non-black, non-Hispanics.”
 
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Hmm, that seems to pretty much contradict the more recent Fryer paper which concludes there is no difference in overall police shootings by race (unless somehow it’s only the subset of fatal unarmed shootings which differ so widely, which doesn’t really make much sense?).

“Where we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with police where lethal force may have been justified – we find, after controlling for suspect demographics, officer demographics, encounter characteristics, suspect weapon and year fixed effects, that blacks are 27.4 percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to non-black, non-Hispanics.”

1. The 2016 paper published by Fryer is not a study, it's a working paper. It's also anonymously funded and not peer reviewed.

2. Its data set, as mentioned earlier, can't be used to infer lack of bias considering the selection bias which comes from only using police reports as the source data. The salient issue at hand starts one level higher with general police-civilian interaction.


There’s been much talk this week about a new study from Harvard economics professor Roland G. Fryer Jr. on racial bias in police shootings. Much of the coverage has focused on the study’s surprising-to-some conclusion that racial bias doesn’t factor into police use of lethal force, at least in the city of Houston and at least once the officer has stopped a civilian ... But the most pertinent flaw in the study (which Fryer has tried to explain, I think unsatisfactorily) is the same flaw in any study that relies on police reports: It relies on police reports.

We want to reform policing. But we want those reforms to be informed, based on good data. The problem is that nearly all the data we have on incidents involving police officers using lethal force comes from reports written by police officers, and nearly all of those reports were written by the officers who were actually involved in those incidents.

For the purpose of the discussion, let’s break shootings and killings by police into three categories: incidents that were illegal and unnecessary, incidents that were legal and necessary, and incidents that were legal but unnecessary. If you’re asking whether current laws and policies allow for too many police shootings, looking at how many shootings are justified under current law and policy is just question begging. It’s that last category — legal but unnecessary — that we want to explore. Unfortunately, it’s also a category that is plagued by subjectivity and the simple fact noted above: Most of the data we have comes from police reports themselves.


If we were to compile statistics on, say, medical mistakes in an effort to make policies that would improve the state of medicine, we wouldn’t get all of our data from written statements by the accused doctors or hospitals. If we wanted to compile data on conflicts of interest in politics, we wouldn’t rely on politicians to self-report and adjudicate when their vote may have been influenced by a campaign donation. But this is essentially what we do with shootings by police officers ... The argument here is not that there’s something uniquely untrustworthy about cops. The argument is that almost every police officer who has just shot and killed someone will defend his or her decision to kill. It’s human nature. It could be because the killing was entirely justifiable. It could be because the officer wants to believe it was justifiable. It could be because the officer knows it wasn’t justified, but fears the consequences.

Personally, I suspect that a high percentage — well more than half — of shootings by police are both legal and justified. I also suspect that nearly all cops who have just shot and killed someone truly believe that their actions were justified. That is, I suspect that the percentage of cases in which cops knowingly covered up a bad shoot is pretty small. But I also think it’s safe to say that the percentage of shootings by police that most of the public would find troubling, unnecessary or unjustifiable is far below the 99 percent or higher of cops that are cleared in these cases.


 
there's the rub

A whole lot of the South still unironically uses phrases like "War Of Northern Aggression"
I’ve lived in the South for three decades and I’ve never heard that phrase outside of Reddit and now SDN.
 
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If you have multiple subscriptions (Atlantic, WSJ, Barron’s, etc) and are considering not renewing, may I recommend The Economist? It’s a weekly publication but has daily electronic news summaries. Been in continuous publication since the 1840s with a well-deserved reputation for journalistic excellence.

 
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I don't hear it every day, but it's definitely a thing.
Perhaps Virginia and South Carolina are outliers… I kinda doubt it. How often do you honestly hear this phrase, and in what context? Do you really find yourself discussing the civil war with your neighbors more than once per year?

This is definitely an “ignorant racist Southerner” stereotype thing and it’s honestly offensive to paint “a whole lot of the South” in this way, IMO
 
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Perhaps Virginia and South Carolina are outliers… I kinda doubt it. How often do you honestly hear this phrase, and in what context? Do you really find yourself discussing the civil war with your neighbors more than once per year?

This is definitely an “ignorant racist Southerner” stereotype thing and it’s honestly offensive to paint “a whole lot of the South” in this way, IMO
I encountered it back in the 90s in rural Virginia, but pretty much just from the cohort that were proud to be members of organizations like the United Daughters of the Confederacy. That is to say, really tiny, very vocal group of people who are a few bananas short of a bunch.
 
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Perhaps Virginia and South Carolina are outliers… I kinda doubt it. How often do you honestly hear this phrase, and in what context? Do you really find yourself discussing the civil war with your neighbors more than once per year?

This is definitely an “ignorant racist Southerner” stereotype thing and it’s honestly offensive to paint “a whole lot of the South” in this way, IMO
You'd be surprised, especially with the ongoing removal of Confederate monuments.

This was in my home town last month: Confederate flag back up on I-85 amid appeal in Spartanburg Co.
 
I’ve lived in the South for three decades and I’ve never heard that phrase outside of Reddit and now SDN.
I've barely lived in the south (Virginia and North Carolina) and I've certainly heard it.

It's possible that I sometimes hang out with a different cohort of people than you. I've belonged to several gun clubs/ranges in these states and there's definitely a subset of that population that not only thinks that way, but assumes that if they see you holding an AR15, that you do too.

I usually responded by saying that I only came to the South to see what we northerners won in the war. (I'm actually from San Diego.)
 
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