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Is it okay to start a thread about the potential UA school? I feel bad taking up space in the main VMCAS thread with a non-existent program. Lol
University of Arizona c/o 2024?
- Thread starter DishonorOnUrCow
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considering they are actually trying to start a class for next fall, this is appropriate. I am going on record that this seems like a bad idea, but as usual, I am sure plenty of people will apply and make a go of it, so I wish you all luck just the same as everyone else. 🙂
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For sure... definitely not my number one but I think it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Especially since I did not pay attention to Midwestern when they went through this process.
Could I get an honest opinion about quality of education vs finances? There's a chance I would have tuition reduction at UA due to my spouse's employment benefits... would no debt be worth the risk of being an academic guinea pig?
Could I get an honest opinion about quality of education vs finances? There's a chance I would have tuition reduction at UA due to my spouse's employment benefits... would no debt be worth the risk of being an academic guinea pig?
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usually veterinary school rules do not apply the same as undergrad for tuition rates, so I would be very cautious thinking that you would get that opportunity, especially in a brand new program that has to show it can make money to be worth it. And if they were following a more traditional curriculum, I might even say there should be minimal risk, but they are attempting to cut down a lot of the education time, so it makes me very nervous for their first class. I suspect it will take strong individuals that are extremely self confident in their ability to overcome adversity to be the ones that make it to the other side. I just hope they have the resources in place to keep the student's well being in the forefront and make sure to take care of them if certain things fail.
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If the school is accredited, which I’m sure it will be, the quality of your education there will be comparable to anywhere else. Any place where you can get reduced tuition is ABSOLUTELY worth it. 200k sounds an awful lot like Monopoly money until you’re paying it back 😉
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They’re cutting down on education time? That’s interesting. Will have to do some reading. EDIT: so this seems like it’ll be a lot like Mizzou without the extra clinical year. I’m wondering if they’ll do clinical tracking. Color me intrigued.
On a semi related note I’m interested in seeing how our externship population will increase at my clinic since we’re relatively close to UofA. Also will be interesting since a lot of our referrals are from the area.
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They are doing a three year curriculum.
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Interested in seeing how much it’ll be like Mizzou/Mississippi without the second clinical year. An interesting solution to possible decreasing debt but I could definitely see how it would increase school burn out.
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For sure! I'm not banking on anything at this point. However, their medical, pharmacy, and nursing schools honor tuition benefits, so there's a glimmer of hope. Burnout and mental health is definitely a concern, especially in a new program that is untested. UA's mental health support isn't very good in the first place so I'd hope the vet med program invests in additional support...
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Yeah. I'll keep my fingers crossed this doesn't create stressed out students that get out in practice already looking for a way out.
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I’m pretty concerned about the accelerated curriculum. It seems likely that they’d have similar attrition rates to Ross. The thing I usually hear from Ross grads is that, aside from being away from home, the hardest part was everything going so fast. Not to mention this is a brand new school so there would be growing pains to deal with in addition to the difficulty of being accelerated.
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Personally I would think really, really hard about if you’re someone who needs breaks. Most people do. Vet school has done a number on my mental health, and I don’t think I would have gotten through without those summers off to work and recharge.
I have no idea what COL will be near the campus, but $210k for just OOS tuition is comparable to many other schools tuition rates. I would much sooner go OOS to another school than a 3 year program, even if it meant paying a bit more.
We always harp on here going to the cheapest school you get in to, and I agree with that. But this might be an exception to that rule to me. If saving a bit (for OOS where they got into schools that weren’t insanely priced like Tufts or Penn) costs you your mental health, it’s not worth it.
Sure some schools have less breaks than others, but they still have more than just a week off on occasion. I worked all my breaks and kept busy, but that change of pace from the constant studying and exams was really needed.
I have no idea what COL will be near the campus, but $210k for just OOS tuition is comparable to many other schools tuition rates. I would much sooner go OOS to another school than a 3 year program, even if it meant paying a bit more.
We always harp on here going to the cheapest school you get in to, and I agree with that. But this might be an exception to that rule to me. If saving a bit (for OOS where they got into schools that weren’t insanely priced like Tufts or Penn) costs you your mental health, it’s not worth it.
Sure some schools have less breaks than others, but they still have more than just a week off on occasion. I worked all my breaks and kept busy, but that change of pace from the constant studying and exams was really needed.
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It also sounds like they want the students to have a lot of discipline and self keep up on material from this excerpt.
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I really wish they would post something helpful. Their Facebook has been cute animal photos and no mention of the fact that they just dropped applications. Another info session with more concrete information like a tentative class schedule would help clear up some of the ambiguity. They hired a bunch of staff after the site visit so surely they should have a structural idea by now.
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I can say that even established programs go into trying to schedule things days before classes start, and even after since life is the way it is. Part of the reason I would hate to be a part of something so very new in the first go round. There are so many kinks to work out.
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I will also say that because they seem to be indicating self study will be a majority way of learning, those that have taken and love online courses will be most benefitted in this learning style. Those that need to be taught by a teacher and ask lots of questions will likely be miserable. Our toxicology was taught this way when a beloved prof retired and they couldn't find a replacement. I would say 2/3 of my classmates hated, nay, absolutely despised it being videos to watch and read about then be tested on. I loved it as I am a self taught kind of person anyway, but something to keep in mind for sure.
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deleted867257
When I was applying UofA kept saying they’ll have that program up and running. I remember looking at their plan and audibly saying “what is this?” Initially I believe they had a pre-clinical year that you had to go through and they’d accept like 500 students for that and 100 would move on to first year of vet school. They still had the accelerated model within that plan. Glad to see they’ve at least gotten rid of that. I’m also really interested in seeing their curriculum, but it looks like that’s not available online.
I’m at Midwestern and stuff is still being working out for us. Each class kind of suffers and works to improve it for the incoming one. I’ve met first class MWU graduates who loved the program nonetheless but of course I’m sure not all of them did and that’ll be dependent on the schools as well.
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Oh my god me too, I had completely erased that plan from my memory! I'm so glad they got away from that... Nothing is available online at this point. I just went through my notes from their info session in February and realized I had photos of their slides. I'm sure there are already a ton of changes and the photo quality isn't great, but I've attached them nonetheless.
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deleted867257
Thanks for the pictures! Although now I have even more questions than I did initially
😕
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I am very confused by their tracks
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deleted867257
For those curious, here is an “updated” curriculum for their program.
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Yeah the tracks make little to no sense to me. It's nice to see that added some additional mini breaks throughout the course of their plan, though.
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Its like the tracks are a buffet and you just pick several things you might be interested in?
I think it's meant to be showing the track classes offered each block? So if I was interested in large animal med I could take
Track 1: Ovine Caprine
Track 2: Dairy Cattle
Track 3: Beef Cattle
Track 4: Swine
Track 5: Poultry
(as opposed to showing that Track 1 would involve taking a course in Canine, Beef Cattle, Ovine / Caprine, Research, and then One Health which is kind of how it reads initially...)
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Is anyone going to apply? I feel like it’s better for them to get the kinks out and wait at least a year. I know they won’t know what their doing first off. And 3 years only? I don’t know how anyone will pass the NAVLE.
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Yep the second way is definitely how I was reading it and was very confuse. Makes a lot more sense the other way
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deleted676737
I mean, every vet school was new at one point or another and had to have an inaugural class, and they all had a handful or two of kinks to work out along the way. Not too long ago, it was Midwestern and LMU in that position. It's a vet school; my cynical side wants to more or less guarantee that plenty of people will apply because they're desperate to get in somewhere. I personally would not want to be a guinea pig for a new DVM program, let alone a new DVM program using a radically different educational model, but I'm sure that there are brave souls out there who would be willing to go for it... current questionable accreditation status be damned.
ETA that I feel like it would be burnout central, though. I agree with everyone else who's brought that up thus far. A lack of summer breaks sounds terrible, not just for mental health reasons but also because that means that students aren't able to gain experience or attend conferences/seminars and network or do research projects or make money to supplement living costs, among a plethora of other things that vet students do during those extended breaks. Or, hell, even just to decompress and recharge... which is absolutely needed for the sake of sanity and overall well-being. A week or two every few months just doesn't cut it.
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I have a feeling that they haven’t even considered this aspect, either. Especially since they focused on it being “cheaper”
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My other concern is when will students have any opportunities to do research or externships? Breaks are a good chance to get into labs or go other places to network and work towards your future. You can’t do that over a one or two week break. It seems like they just want to breed GP’s which is something a lot of other schools have taken issue with in the past with other schools coming about. Obviously being a GP isn’t an issue, but it seems like students won’t really have much of an opportunity to do something else, yea?
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The real reasoning behind building the u of a vet school is to provide a more affordable experience for Arizona residents, who currently don't have any "cheap" options (besides wiche). This is why out of state isn't really out of the ordinary in terms of cost. It's focused more on keeping AZ students in Arizona, especially to make a dent on the massive rural LA vet shortage in the state. As a graduate from u of a who worked under a number of people involved in starting the program, I will admit I am biased. I do trust them to build a program that will be accredited by the time the first class graduates (much like Midwestern). It's a good option for AZ residents who want a cheaper cost of attendance at the expense of joining a new program that hasn't really been tested. There's definitely some level of risk for the first class or two, but I don't think it's anything they can't get figured out.
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There is no such thing as a shortage of rural LA veterinarians. Anywhere. Period. There is such a thing as no one wants to work in the middle of nowhere, 24/7/365 on large animals making barely $40-50k/year. You can't fix this, no matter how many "cheaper" vet schools you open. This will never change.
Not to mention, their in-state tuition isn't cheaper. It is quite pricey actually. Fairly damn close to what I paid for out of state tuition. $45,000 per year, not including any fees associated with the university. Not including cost of living.
U of A is opening a vet school to gain on the financial aspect of what a veterinary program brings. Period. They don't even have a clinic on sight and have no plans on having one.
Sorry, it is another predatory program in my mind, they don't care about the students and what they will face post-graduation. They just care about getting this program on-line as quickly as possible (as evidenced by them taking in students this year) so they can start banking on that tuition money.
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I agree with you that a teaching hospital is generally a better idea. They're just partnering with local clinics instead which I guess we'll see how that works out. It's definitely a downside but it is part of keeping costs down. $135,000 for tuition is a whole lot better than the $200,000 most of us are looking at for oos tuition. Not to mention that Tucson cost of living is almost non-existent (partly due to the excessive amount of sketchy areas and crime but that's a whole different topic....) Do we really need another vet school? Not really. Is it a potentially better way to reduce the loan burden for AZ residents and keep them practicing in AZ (which may translate to more vets able to work in rural areas), absolutely. We can disagree all we want, but only time will tell.
Edit: not to mention the huge cost savings of not needing a full Bachelor's degree.
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One of the primary anatomy and physiology professors lined up for the vet school is a personal mentor (I'm definitely biased because she is one in a million) and I got to discuss the U of A's vet school extensively with her. U of A is a land grant institution with a dedication to responsible agriculture, and I think they view the vet school as a way of fulfilling their duty to Arizona livestock producers, pet owners, and students alike. The $45k a year tuition may seem steep, but it's also year round which has to be accounted for when it comes to the budget. Also, the way they see it, you'll be out practicing making money and paying off your loans a year earlier which can mean thousands of dollars in interest. I'm not saying that it's going to be a smooth start or that the program structure is going to work well, I just know the faculty of the school are going to do everything in their power to produce good veterinarians and improve veterinary care in Arizona. Hoping for the best for all of the future UofA Wildcats!
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deleted867257
Ultimately this all won’t matter if they’re not granted their letter of reasonable assurance. They had the session with the COE in April, anyone have any idea when this becomes released? I’m kind of curious to see how this does play out. Based on the current US system, I couldn’t imagine doing vet school the way they have it laid out, with minimal breaks. Especially at the age (18) I could’ve technically applied at if they had this running when I was looking at schools. I definitely wouldn’t have been ready for vet school period, let along this model.
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Both Midwestern and them are using the local clinics thing. Granted at least they're far away, but I see issues arising there at some point. $45k tuition is on par with out of state tuition costs, that's exactly how much I paid for out of state tuition.
It has been proven for the last decade that increasing the number of vet students doesn't do jack **** for filling those rural LA jobs. There's no "time will tell" we've already been there, done that. These schools do not care, they all use this excuse for why the college is needed, or for why they need to increase their class size. It is a lie at this point.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."
--Albert Einstein
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I can't think of any veterinary school that requires a bachelor's degree before being enrolled. They all only require that you complete their prerequisites.
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UC Davis is the ONLY US vet school that requires a bachelors degree. No one else cares if you have one. That’s not a good enough reason to open a new vet school.
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I was told that the last week of September would be judgement day but they still haven’t heard.
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Also, cost of living is exponentially increasing in Tucson. High-rise apartment buildings are popping up everywhere and buying out low-income family homes, minimum wage is increasing, more affluent oos folks are moving to Tucson for some reason. Low cost of living is not something they can advertise for very long. My rent increased $100 in just a year “to keep up with the market” and it’s still a good deal compared to others.
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deleted676737
In that case, why are they already accepting applications now? Why not wait until next cycle when they know for sure what'll happen with the accreditation thing and so that they can actually go through VMCAS? I realize that the website claims that U of A "anticipates" receiving their letter of reasonable assurance, but they've also been anticipating and trying for it for years now with no success. What reason do we have to believe that it's any different this time? It's very possible that the school knows more than we do so they have a higher level of confidence that they'll be getting it this time around, but I feel like it's reasonable to be concerned about it at this stage since there's been no announcement from either the school or AAVMC itself.
After all, Midwestern and LMU began accepting applications for the inaugural class during the 2013-2014 cycle and had already received reasonable assurance quite a bit prior to that point. At least, if I remember correctly (I was lurking the forums around that time). They didn't open up applications while they were still awaiting a decision; they held off until they actually had that letter of reasonable assurance in hand. Why can't U of A?
Not directed towards you, by the way; I'm just thinking out loud and using your post as a springboard.
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They’ll probably get a letter of reasonable assurance. That’s just my uneducated opinion on it lol. But the reason for accepting applications is that the process can’t move forward without matriculating students. If they don’t get the letter for whatever reason, they just say “oops sorry” and move on. If they do get it and wait another year before matriculating students, it’s tons of money paid to staff and spent on facilities that won’t be recouped. So it probably boils down to financial incentive.
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You are echoing a lot of local sentiments. I graduated around the time of their first site visit and they told my class to prepare for applications. Like 4 years ago. They really like to get ahead of themselves so this application randomly opening doesn’t surprise me. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a money grab. Though, I’ve always had very strong feelings about UA, the regents, and money.
They also hired A LOT of staff right after this most recent visit, which I found odd.
I feel that I should add that I love the people who kickstarted this movement years ago and have worked under many of them. They have really great people involved, especially the new dean, but that doesn’t justify the continual overconfidence. Especially when it keeps hurting their appearances to the population they’re trying to target.
They also hired A LOT of staff right after this most recent visit, which I found odd.
I feel that I should add that I love the people who kickstarted this movement years ago and have worked under many of them. They have really great people involved, especially the new dean, but that doesn’t justify the continual overconfidence. Especially when it keeps hurting their appearances to the population they’re trying to target.
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deleted676737
Under section 6.2, "A college granted Reasonable Assurance must offer admission to and matriculate its first class of students within three years. A college that delays offering admission to and matriculating its first class beyond three years must submit a new formal letter of application to the AVMA COE."
Even if U of A were to receive their letter of reasonable assurance today, they would still have more than enough room to wait. They could open applications up for the first class during the next VMCAS cycle and, so long as they admit and matriculate students to the program, they'd meet this COE requirement with no issue. As I've previously mentioned, that's the route that both LMU and Midwestern took. This whole "accepting applications while still waiting for reasonable assurance and being in accreditation limbo" was a complete nonissue for those schools because they both waited to start admitting prospective students until well after they'd already received reasonable assurance. Because of that decision, the applicants and matriculated students were guaranteed an accredited degree even if things turned sour.
You're probably right that the school is going to get their letter of reasonable assurance soon, if they haven't already; I would imagine, I would hope, that U of A wouldn't have made an executive decision to open applications now if they didn't have a pretty damn high level of confidence that they would be receiving it before the first class matriculates. But, until the school or AAVMC releases a formal statement, potential applicants have no way of knowing for sure at this time. The only actual reassurance that applicants have re: accreditation status is that FAQ entry on the school's website stating that they "anticipate" receiving their letter of reasonable assurance. That statement is effectively meaningless, as the school has been trying to get and has even stated that they've "anticipated" reasonable assurance for years. This school also has a bad history of jumping the gun at various stages of the process, as @DishonorOnUrCow pointed out.
Unfortunately, you're probably also right that it's mostly financial incentive that is driving them to start accepting applications prematurely. The thing is, they're already having to pay staff to get the program and facilities organized and operating, so they're spending either way. And, let's be real, it's the U of A. This isn't some small, dinky Mickey Mouse state school in the middle of nowhere like where I did my undergrad. It's a major university and it should have a large enough revenue stream as it is to keep current goings-on at the college sustained until next the start of the next cycle, especially since there are no plans to build and maintain a full service teaching hospital.
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Do people get their money back if they apply and they DON’T get the letter and therefore cannot open???
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It appears that there isn’t a fee, unless it changes when you submit. They’re only requiring unofficial transcripts to be uploaded, too. At least they were smart enough to recognize that no one would put money down at this point.
Do people get their money back if they apply and they DON’T get the letter and therefore cannot open???
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I just found this thread and I’m just going throw this out there: there looks to be a lot of criticism about UA wanting to jump the gun to get applications in. But, as one person pointed out, they lose money if they wait a year to open applications. And, like it or not, all colleges and universities are businesses. They need to make money in order to function. And this is relieved by getting the inaugural class in for next fall instead of 2021.
Yes, I agree they are acting a bit over confident from what I’ve seen. But I am interpreting it as they have that confidence for a reason and almost assured they will get the letter of reasonable assurance. If not, it’s a bad business move waiting to happen. Because if applicants go through the trouble to apply, interview, and potentially want to accept, if they *don’t* have that letter, then the CVM, as well as UA as a whole, will look bad. And beyond any other possible motives, I don’t believe they will deliberately do something like that that could potentially undermine the school’s reputation.
I will be applying, as there’s not much associated risk; if they accept people and, come April, they don’t have the letter, they know that few people in their right mind would actually attend (another reason for them to be on top of their game). Also, for me as an OOS student with no in-state option, the cost is not bad compared to some schools. And finishing a year early is appealing (even with the potential for intense mental stress). Vet school is not meant to be mentally soothing, and though some people may be horrified at the idea of no breaks, but others still may find the curriculum appealing in its own right.
But, as mentioned, time will tell. We won’t know until the school or the AAVMC announces something. And in the meantime, sending in an application won’t hurt.
Yes, I agree they are acting a bit over confident from what I’ve seen. But I am interpreting it as they have that confidence for a reason and almost assured they will get the letter of reasonable assurance. If not, it’s a bad business move waiting to happen. Because if applicants go through the trouble to apply, interview, and potentially want to accept, if they *don’t* have that letter, then the CVM, as well as UA as a whole, will look bad. And beyond any other possible motives, I don’t believe they will deliberately do something like that that could potentially undermine the school’s reputation.
I will be applying, as there’s not much associated risk; if they accept people and, come April, they don’t have the letter, they know that few people in their right mind would actually attend (another reason for them to be on top of their game). Also, for me as an OOS student with no in-state option, the cost is not bad compared to some schools. And finishing a year early is appealing (even with the potential for intense mental stress). Vet school is not meant to be mentally soothing, and though some people may be horrified at the idea of no breaks, but others still may find the curriculum appealing in its own right.
But, as mentioned, time will tell. We won’t know until the school or the AAVMC announces something. And in the meantime, sending in an application won’t hurt.
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Excuse me? Why is this a good reasoning for a shortened curriculum?
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deleted867257
I feel like if anything it’s a reason to NOT do a shortened curriculum. Although vet school may not actually be “mentally soothing,” schools should be working to better that based on recent light towards veterinary suicide. Is it a fact of the matter that it can be stressful and hard to cope with? Yes, it’s how things are. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s how it has to be or that it should be that way.
Also considering in one of their main press conferences on the matter they stated they wouldn’t open the college until they were granted the letter.... this kind of just sets them in bad lighting. They said one thing but do another? With really no formal announcement about it? They don’t even have their official curriculum released. So obviously there’s some hesitation there. Applicants aren’t fully aware of what they’re signing up for without having access to some important things, of which they’re currently not supplying. The hesitation and criticism are justified in this thread. People are willing to go to any vet school that they may jump in without a second thought and I think if they read this thread they’d get some pretty good things that they should keep in mind before doing so.
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deleted676737
I'm just going to quote a couple of points regarding this issue from my previous posts on this:
This is the most likely case, but because of the rather troubled and spotted history of this particular school and its multiple previous unsuccessful attempts for reasonable assurance, I will remain
I'd also like to think that few people in their right mind would actually attend a unaccredited school, but the fact that there are still a fair number of pre-vets every year who choose to apply to and attend a school like SMU with the knowledge that their degree is not accredited and that they will have numerous difficult, expensive, time-consuming hoops to jump through should they want to practice in the US and actually use that degree they shelled out so much money, blood, sweat, and tears for... yeah.
Pre-vets are desperate. Not all of them, of course, but a good number certainly have blinders on and are just trying to get into any program they can.
I won't comment on the cost, because it gets a bit washy depending on individual location and circumstances and and we also don't know total COA for U of A at this time (only the tuition figures), though the program being truncated to three years does help a little. I personally still think that the asking price is too high considering that an entire year's worth of COA at the vet school I attended is $10k less than yearly IS tuition alone at U of A. U of A has no plans for a teaching hospital of any sort, so it really ought to cost even less, all things considered.
But, with all due respect, you're not in vet school yet. Everyone in this thread who has commented negatively about the lack of breaks is either currently attending or has previously attended vet school. As trite as it sounds, you can't truly understand what it's like until you experience it for yourself; sure, you know going in that vet school is "hard" but you can't fully conceptualize to what degree and what exactly that means for you until you're in the midst of the schooling.
You need breaks in vet school. Even the schools that utilize 2+2 models still have that one large summer break between first and second year to allow students time to decompress and recharge, in addition to whatever typical breaks they have throughout the year. The sheer volume of material is so massive and the pace at which it is shoved into your face is so breakneck, even in a traditional four year program, that I honestly couldn't imagine having to endure that all year around with only a week or maybe two off every few months. Hell, I've been out of vet school for nearly two years now and I still can't do seemingly easy things I used to love like write poetry or translate or read for pleasure because my brain has become so accustomed to such constant, rapid input and regurgitation of information at this point, largely thanks to vet school, that they feel too slow and aren't anywhere near stimulating enough anymore and it ****ing sucks. Of course, there's also the fact that this means there would zero downtime for students to do things like work to supplement living costs or participate in research projects or attend conferences, should they elect to do any of those things, but that's already been touched upon.
I'll just be blunt: I think that this curriculum design is terrible. I think it will lead to further burnout in an at-risk population where burnout and mental health issues, including suicide, are already significant problems and I think it will also lead to increased attrition, both within the school and the profession itself. The only AVMA-accredited school that is presently using a model similar to U of A's is Ross, and their attrition rates are high, partly because they do accept a lot of people who probably shouldn't be in vet school but also partly because their program is set up to be accelerated, much like U of A's is.
I truly believe that it would be the exceptional vet student who could make it through a three year, year round DVM program relatively unscathed and not experience some level of burnout by the end.
You're right, time will tell and sending in an application won't hurt. By all means, you should absolutely apply if you'd like, especially since (at least from what @DishonorOnUrCow has said, it sounds like there aren't any application fees this year); don't let a bunch of bitter meanies on the interwebs stop you. 😉
Really, though, just recognize that a lot of the criticism slung toward U of A's program comes from those who have been there and done that before and also know that a lot of it is valid. Frankly, we don't need any more vet schools period. Full stop. There is already a glut of graduates as it is and while there is a "shortage" of large animal vets in rural areas of the country, it's due to the intermingling of several complex issues and simply opening up a new vet school isn't going to solve it; this has been the justification for starting up several new DVM programs over the past decade or two and it hasn't fixed the problem yet and it won't in the future.
I do think that vet med education does need some radical change, but I'm not sure that this is it and I'm also not sure that this program is in the best interest of student well-being.
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I mean sure what's the risk? If they don't get approval you can still go even just have to take ECFVG test that costs lots of money, is often reported to be difficult to pass and takes many attempts. Many people spend upwards of $10k going through those steps to obtain the ability to get a US license. But sure... no harm, no foul.
