Unpopular opinion: NYU gets singled out too much for its tuition cost

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I've lived in NYC and I can tell you it is. The 35k figure is just for rent and food, and they accounted an extra 5k for personal expenses. 40k a year for a student is a lot, whether in NYC or not
You say you have lived in NYC but my dad went to NYU dental, we lived near NYU. I was born in NYC. Trust me. You don't realize how much things cost (especially nowadays). If you want to go NYU and live within a reasonable distance. You will pay a lot on just rent alone. However I am not saying you cannot find a way to pay less. Meal planning, no dating, no gifts for Christmas... You can cut corners. But 35k a year to live in Manhattan is not uncommon.
 
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I disagree with the assertion that it costs around 700k. Living within reasonable means would put the entire COA at around 480,000 pre interest and 540,000 post interest compounding for 4 years. Is that a huge amount of money? yes. But the 700k figure is grossly exaggerated.

Taking out full allowed amount of loans, which imo is totally unnecessary would put you at 630k post interest. Much closer to 700k but still not close enough to round up.

You're forgetting about the yearly tuition increase of about 5%. 500k (pre-interest and pre-tuition increase) today is actually 600k upon graduation.

If you go by NYU's living estimates and take out 40k of loans per year, that 560k (pre-interest and pre-tuition increase) is actually 680k upon graduation. If you count loan fees on top of this, you're looking at about 695k.
 
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You're forgetting about the yearly tuition increase of about 5%. 500k (pre-interest and pre-tuition increase) today is actually 600k upon graduation.

If you go by NYU's living estimates and take out 40k of loans per year, that 560k (pre-interest and pre-tuition increase) is actually 680k upon graduation. If you count loan fees on top of this, you're looking at about 695k.
And like I said before. By the time it is competed paid off (because interest accrues until every penny is paid back), you are likely paying even more than 700k unless you can pay off you loans 4-6 years after graduating D school.
 
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And like I said before. By the time it is competed paid off (because interest accrues until every penny is paid back), you are likely paying even more than 700k unless you can pay off you loans 4-6 years after graduating D school.
Let's not even talk about how much one would have to pay if they decided to specialize as well+pity+
 

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Let's not even talk about how much one would have to pay if they decided to specialize as well+pity+
Yep. Like I said I have met MANY specialists in endo, ortho, perio etc that are in 700, 800, even 900k in the hole in their late 30s and 40s. without a doubt EVERY single one of them regretted their decision and were really struggling with their debt. Really the only way to get out it to buy a practice (more debt) and increase your income. Then you spend a good 15-20 years just trying to pay off your debts while not investing much in retirement accounts.

Compare it to our MD counterparts who may get out of school with 200k still in many states, and then get paid in residency. The opportunities to moonlight and spend more time in the hospital are also numerous as compared to dentistry where it is much harder to find work outside of business hours. Your net worth will be years ahead of most dental specialists.
 
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Like I said I have met MANY specialists in endo, ortho, perio etc that are in 700, 800, even 900k in the hole in their late 30s and 40s.
We'll certainly see an increase in dental specialists with 7 figure debt. Dr. Meru was the canary in the coal mine.
 
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from the apartments that ive looked up, because of covid COL in nyc is now cheaper than LA.
 
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You say you have lived in NYC but my dad went to NYU dental, we lived near NYU. I was born in NYC. Trust me. You don't realize how much things cost (especially nowadays). If you want to go NYU and live within a reasonable distance. You will pay a lot on just rent alone. However I am not saying you cannot find a way to pay less. Meal planning, no dating, no gifts for Christmas... You can cut corners. But 35k a year to live in Manhattan is not uncommon.
Are you using yourself as a source??? Just because you live in NYC and couldn't do it for under 35k doesn't mean that is the norm for everyone. I've lived in NYC for since I was born and I've also lived in Manhattan for a few of those years. The city is expensive but it doesn't have to average 35k.

Prior to dental school, I lived, worked, and went to school in the city. I found a roommate in the lower east side on bowery for about $1k which is a good price but it's not a unicorn. Look on E Houston street and you'll find 2 bedroom apartments for $2000-2500. Look for people who are looking for a roommate and you'll get it to split, which what I did. The close proximity to Chinatown meant food was cheap since a lunch in Chinatown was about $6-8. That said, I cooked every night even though I ate out every day for lunch in Chinatown. I also got a citibike membership for $170 to go to school at Baruch (which is where NYU is) and work. Don't want to ride a bike? Ok, just spend another $130 and get a metrocard. If you do this during dental school, all you need to do is walk 2-4 blocks to Allen street and take the M23 select service bus and you'll be at NYU in 15 minutes. My monthly total was about $1500, which my part-time $1k bi-weekly paycheck paid easily, and with the metrocard it'd be $1600. Times that by 12 and that's only $19k. I did this for three years. On the contrary, you can also live in Brooklyn for about the same amount with a slightly bigger apartment.

There, I told you the secret on how to not spend $35k in Manhattan. Not everyone needs to spend $1800 x 12 on rent or $1000 x 12 on food.
 
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You're forgetting about the yearly tuition increase of about 5%. 500k (pre-interest and pre-tuition increase) today is actually 600k upon graduation.

If you go by NYU's living estimates and take out 40k of loans per year, that 560k (pre-interest and pre-tuition increase) is actually 680k upon graduation. If you count loan fees on top of this, you're looking at about 695k.
Put this all on an excel sheet and you will find that your math is incorrect. I have even posted calculations before.
 
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Are you using yourself as a source??? Just because you live in NYC and couldn't do it for under 35k doesn't mean that is the norm for everyone. I've lived in NYC for since I was born and I've also lived in Manhattan for a few of those years. The city is expensive but it doesn't have to average 35k.

Prior to dental school, I lived, worked, and went to school in the city. I found a roommate in the lower east side on bowery for about $1k which is a good price but it's not a unicorn. Look on E Houston street and you'll find 2 bedroom apartments for $2000-2500. Look for people who are looking for a roommate and you'll get it to split, which what I did. The close proximity to Chinatown meant food was cheap since a lunch in Chinatown was about $6-8. That said, I cooked every night even though I ate out every day for lunch in Chinatown. I also got a citibike membership for $170 to go to school at Baruch (which is where NYU is) and work. Don't want to ride a bike? Ok, just spend another $130 and get a metrocard. If you do this during dental school, all you need to do is walk 2-4 blocks to Allen street and take the M23 select service bus and you'll be at NYU in 15 minutes. My monthly total was about $1500, which my part-time $1k bi-weekly paycheck paid easily, and with the metrocard it'd be $1600. Times that by 12 and that's only $19k. I did this for three years. On the contrary, you can also live in Brooklyn for about the same amount with a slightly bigger apartment.

There, I told you the secret on how to not spend $35k in Manhattan. Not everyone needs to spend $1800 x 12 on rent or $1000 x 12 on food.
how were you able to work while in dental school if you don’t mind me asking
 

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It was prior to dental school so I worked whilst in undergrad.
Everyone at Baruch would stack their classes to just 2 days all day long so that we could work jobs lmao, I’m betting that is what you did too
 
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Put this all on an excel sheet and you will find that your math is incorrect. I have even posted calculations before.
Dont bother bro. All the wannabe Dave Ramseys of SDN are convinced NYU is a million dollar investment and certain "financial ruin".

When I see private dental school grads starting to collect welfare then Ill be concerned.
 
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Dont bother bro. All the wannabe Dave Ramseys of SDN are convinced NYU is a million dollar investment and certain "financial ruin".

When I see private dental school grads starting to collect welfare then Ill be concerned.
this is hilarious. You are suggesting a person should go to 8 years of school, and deal with a profession involving numerous stresses you couldn't possibly understand as a pre-dent with the marker of success as not being on welfare? That is the quality of life to be desired from such an undertaking?

People getting into dental school could have been successful at many either fields. Becoming a dentist at 500k+ is for 98% of people a horrible decision that they will live to regret for their whole life. For that 2% any amount of debt would be irrelevant as they have the drive and business knowledge to make it happen (as they would in any field, not limited to dentistry)

please do go to NYU...ignore all of us wannabes who are actually in the field and have real financial knowledge...:rofl:
 
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People getting into dental school could have been successful at many either fields. Becoming a dentist at 500k+ is for 98% of people a horrible decision that they will live to regret for their whole life.
I really doubt that. Lets say someone doesnt go on an IBR plan and actually tries to pay the loan over 10-15 years or so. As much as that would heavily cut into their income, theyre still working less hours weekly than most full time professionals in the US and making way more hourly. 500k debt or not, a dentist is probably going to have a comfortable and balanced lifestyle, unless theyre absolutely lazy and incompetent. Not saying every dentist is going to be driving a McLaren, but basically all of them will have a qol way higher than the average American
 
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Hi Im not necessarily disagreeing with anything you said. I just think its interesting how NYU particularly is sensationalized on this forum. People like that student loan planner guy make a post, deceptively saying it costs "$700k" to attend (it doesnt), and impressionable pre dents read that and start crapping on NYU and in the same breath applying to other schools which are essentially just as ex
this is hilarious. You are suggesting a person should go to 8 years of school, and deal with a profession involving numerous stresses you couldn't possibly understand as a pre-dent with the marker of success as not being on welfare? That is the quality of life to be desired from such an undertaking?

People getting into dental school could have been successful at many either fields. Becoming a dentist at 500k+ is for 98% of people a horrible decision that they will live to regret for their whole life. For that 2% any amount of debt would be irrelevant as they have the drive and business knowledge to make it happen (as they would in any field, not limited to dentistry)

please do go to NYU...ignore all of us wannabes who are actually in the field and have real financial knowledge...:rofl:
Everyone thinks they’re gonna be the dentist taking home 500k per year out of school when in reality most will be average making at or less than 100k after taxes.
 
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I really doubt that. Lets say someone doesnt go on an IBR plan and actually tries to pay the loan over 10-15 years or so. As much as that would heavily cut into their income, theyre still working less hours weekly than most full time professionals in the US and making way more hourly. 500k debt or not, a dentist is probably going to have a comfortable and balanced lifestyle, unless theyre absolutely lazy and incompetent. Not saying every dentist is going to be driving a McLaren, but basically all of them will have a qol way higher than the average American
debatable.. yes your income after taxes will be avg/above avg compared to the average American, BUT the average american isn't half a mill in debt.. Subtract loans, insurance, mortgage/rent, retirement plan/investments, phone bill, gas for car, food, wife, kids, electric bill, water bill, heat bill, medical bills, and countless other unexpected expenses and life isn't looking all that great anymore.. You wanna pay off 500k over 30 years? That's $3260 a month and a total payment of 1.17 mill.. over 15 years? that'll be 4,400 a month and a total payment of 799k...(both calculated at 6.8% ir) Also how will dentists be working less than most full time professionals? From what I have seen, many new grads work 6 days a week if they are able? How many other 9-5s work more then the typical 5 day/40 hr weeks?

Did I miss anything?
 
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Did I miss anything?
IBR plans and minimum payments while you are investing in yourself and your practice to increase your income. Then refinancing when youre ready to pay it off. Those numbers are a lot scarier for a lifetime associate vs for a dentist growing a successful private practice
 
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Put this all on an excel sheet and you will find that your math is incorrect. I have even posted calculations before.

I looked at your calculations--great breakdown by the way--and your 'ultra high end' option (~40k living expenses) is actually similar to what NYU advertises on its website. So I'm not sure how my math is wrong since you seem to agree with me.

NYU estimate.JPG
 

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IBR plans and minimum payments while you are investing in yourself and your practice to increase your income. Then refinancing when youre ready to pay it off. Those numbers are a lot scarier for a lifetime associate vs for a dentist growing a successful private practice
sure but better hope you pay off a significant amount or that tax bomb will look gnarly, right?
 
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please do go to NYU...ignore all of us wannabes who are actually in the field and have real financial knowledge...:rofl:
Keep in mind that a lot of us have financial knowledge as well. I’m an NYU student myself and while there’s a fair share of financially irresponsible students, I also know that a lot come from wealthy backgrounds with dentists parents who wouldn’t blink twice at a 500k education from NYU.

Then there is also students like me who are career changers who have saved up quite the savings through saving and investing, think close to or more than the entire tuition of NYU charges. I might be one of the top ones in terms of savings but I have noticed a lot of other students with size-able savings as well. I’m only doing this because it was something I liked. I don’t regret my decision to attend NYU because I know that I won’t have any stress about money at all in the future.

It was also pretty obvious that these students weren’t defending NYU’s price, just saying that not everyone going to NYU is a financially illiterate predent, and I agree with that. However I also agree that if you don’t know anything about money, NYU is not the school for you.
 
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sure but better hope you pay off a significant amount or that tax bomb will look gnarly, right?
What I meant was to do IBR for the beginning of your career, so you have more money to take home and invest in your practice and therefore increase your earning potential. Honestly IMO this is the smartest move no matter how much debt you come out with, 300k or 600k, because this is how youll most increase your income.

I wasnt talking about staying on IBR and getting the tax bomb, but thats also an option.
 
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I looked at your calculations--great breakdown by the way--and your 'ultra high end' option (~40k living expenses) is actually similar to what NYU advertises on its website. So I'm not sure how my math is wrong since you seem to agree with me.

View attachment 331290
Sorry I had misread and thought that you took it as a fact that students need to take out 560k pre interest and end up with 695k. The calculation is sound, but what I am trying to say is just because NYU estimated it to be near my ultra high end calculation does not mean that all students will spend that much, and it's pretty much the entire point I'm as well as kobe are trying to make: this 35k-40k figure is inflated if you actually work out the math and keep a sound budget. No one really needs $2k a month post-rent. Even 1k post rent is a lot and that would put you at 640k. I'd say a frugal student would chisel it down to around 620k. I know a lot of you would take a look at this and say "well there's no difference between 620k and 700k, you're still crippled." Well, that's correct and again, hence why I have said, coming to NYU from OOS is not worth it. Only way it'll be worth it at all is if you're rich or if you already live at home in NYC. My live at home is actually under 500k despite the fact that I calculated it to be 515k, because I am disciplined enough to keep my expenses way low, coupled with the fact that I have spent nearly only like $1k for an entire year due to covid. This is in comparison to the budget that I have developed for other schools which would actually put me at 600k+ easily like BU. The lowest I could have gotten was UB which would have costed me nearly 410k vs NYU's 495k. Like my own argument with NYU, I am sure I could have gotten COL down to lower, as I am pretty frugal, but I don't know buffalo as well as I do NYC, so I would need to experience it to adjust for subsequent years. For an extra 85k, I thought it was more appropriate to stay in NYC with my family, whom I have a very close relationship with, as well as my girlfriend and friends. Can you really say that NYU was that much of a bad choice? For me, no it wasn't.

1614380563994.png
 
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Keep in mind that a lot of us have financial knowledge as well. I’m an NYU student myself and while there’s a fair share of financially irresponsible students, I also know that a lot come from wealthy backgrounds with dentists parents who wouldn’t blink twice at a 500k education from NYU.

Then there is also students like me who are career changers who have saved up quite the savings through saving and investing, think close to or more than the entire tuition of NYU charges. I might be one of the top ones in terms of savings but I have noticed a lot of other students with size-able savings as well. I’m only doing this because it was something I liked. I don’t regret my decision to attend NYU because I know that I won’t have any stress about money at all in the future.

It was also pretty obvious that these students weren’t defending NYU’s price, just saying that not everyone going to NYU is a financially illiterate predent, and I agree with that. However I also agree that if you don’t know anything about money, NYU is not the school for you.
All that saved money could have been used to something much better and proactive than student loans though :happy:
 
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Ever try to get a practice loan with $600,000+ in student loans?

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You can pay the minimum on your student loans with IBR and save the money you make working as an associate to invest in your practice after a few years. Having liquidity will help you more in purchasing a practice than aggressively paying off loans, having a low loan balance and no cash, just to take another loan to buy a practice.

Also if you did want to get a practice loan I really doubt there would be any problem. Lenders dont look at student loans like they do other kinds of debt, and they dont look at practice loans like they look at car or home loans, because a practice generates income. Dental practice loans have a less than 1% failure rate. I'm not a banker and I havent tried to get one so I cant say for sure, but I doubt it would be too hard
 
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All that saved money could have been used to something much better and proactive than student loans though :happy:
You say that, and you would be right for your standards, but I have a different philosophy. People always say "you could do this and earn even more money" but I'm not young anymore and I know what is ahead of me. After the loss of a family member really close to me, I have found that life is too short to stress over matters if it's not even an issue in the future. The fact is I worry for the predents that go to NYU that don't have a cent to their name, but for me, I will be fine. Even after paying off my tuition, I will still have enough to be fine. And besides, what I could have done with my money is not really that important, as long as my wife, children, and I are living decently. I have goals to hit before I kick the bucket: I want to be educated, I want a profession that I love and that allows me to help people and one that allows my children to be proud of, I want to travel the world with my family, and I want my own children to espouse the same ideals that I have now. This decision was in no way financially sound, but like I said, if my family and I needn't stress about money and debt, then in my honest opinion, I have made the right choice to pursue what I enjoy.
 

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You can pay the minimum on your student loans with IBR and save the money you make working as an associate to invest in your practice after a few years. Having liquidity will help you more in purchasing a practice than aggressively paying off loans, having a low loan balance and no cash, just to take another loan to buy a practice.
The reality is DSO's are on the rise and ownership is on the decline. A study in 2015 showed that only 38% of dentists under 35 were owners. It's probably even lower today and will continue to decline.
 
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The reality is DSO's are on the rise and ownership is on the decline. A study in 2015 showed that only 38% of dentists under 35 were owners. It's probably even lower today and will continue to decline.
Thats not an insurmountable statistic. If someone wants to own a practice they can make it happen. I wouldnt say its a good decision to go to an expensive private school if you dont plan on owning your own practice soon after graduating.
 

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These schools must seriously be making money hand over fist. 100K x 400 = $40 Mil. Do they practice with golden drills and diamond bits that they keep upon graduation or something?

Also, why do dentists have to pay tuition to do residencies vs MDs who get paid a decent living during residency? Dentists residencies are essentially free labor right? Just always seem weird to me.
 
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These schools must seriously be making money hand over fist. 100K x 400 = $40 Mil. Do they practice with golden drills and diamond bits that they keep upon graduation or something?

Also, why do dentists have to pay tuition to do residencies vs MDs who get paid a decent living during residency? Dentists residencies are essentially free labor right? Just always seem weird to me.
Well we do use diamond burs from time to time. 😏

Dental schools know they can charge whatever they want. Pre dents will still apply no matter what the cost. Applicants will always try to defend these expensive schools on the forums.
 
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Applicants will always try to defend these expensive schools on the forums.
No one here is defending private schools. OP is saying that all private schools cost around the same but NYU seems to get the brunt of the heat which is a pretty fair statement since most of you seemed to not know, and I've been saying living NYC doesn't have to be 35k expensive and that choosing NYU was not my worst choice. Most people who had something to say said pretty much said not to go to NYU. Do you consider that defending? To me it's mostly seems like elucidating on common misconceptions that seems to plague your minds. But I get it, it's easy to hate on something that you don't agree with.
 

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No one here is defending private schools. OP is saying that all private schools cost around the same but NYU seems to get the brunt of the heat which is a pretty fair statement since most of you seemed to not know, and I've been saying living NYC doesn't have to be 35k expensive and that choosing NYU was not my worst choice. Most people who had something to say said pretty much said not to go to NYU. Do you consider that defending? To me it's mostly seems like elucidating on common misconceptions that seems to plague your minds. But I get it, it's easy to hate on something that you don't agree with.
I never said anything about living expenses in NYC. I don’t live there, nor would I want to. 500k~ in loans in general is a ton. Lots of applicants in the past have defended their choice going to NYU, USC, Or expensive ivys in the past. Usually because it was their only choice in school or they think it will get them into speciality. This has been happening for a long time even when I was a pre-dent. I’m not calling out this thread specifically.
 

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This conversation is becoming ridiculous. How many people have to say this? Is the desire to be a dentist worth a potential lifetime of servitude to loans? Don't know about you, but I became a dentist for the lifestyle and money (then i went and joined the Navy lol... so screwed myself there). This school and ones like it hinder that greatly. And before someone gets on their high horse saying I didn't have loans, I married into them and paid all $300K of it off. Living in NYC is expensive, period. Sure you can cut expenses and make it less, but compared to a lot of other cities, NYC is HIGH. Yea you can live with 10 other people or live with your mom and make it work but lets be honest here... the school is expensive. You want to go there, go for it. No one here is going to stop you. It is your money (well the governments). Just do us on SDN a favor and don't complain later when you actually realize how much $700K (or $500K) is when you make 150K and have other expenses. Many people here are making very logical reasons to not commit financial suicide. And yes there are outliers to all situations, but lets not make that seem like the norm. I personally think if you can get into NYU you can get into another school. Lastly, IBR should be an absolute last resort. Not your go to way to pay for school.
 
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Well we do use diamond burs from time to time. 😏

Dental schools know they can charge whatever they want. Pre dents will still apply no matter what the cost. Applicants will always try to defend these expensive schools on the forums.

This still doesn't make sense. I just checked and the most expensive medical school (tuition) is Darthmouth and USC at $67K. USC dental (tuition) is over 100K.

Med students are just as dumb as dental students and even if Med school increase their tuition to 150K/yr, they still would easily fill.

Are dental equipment that much more expensive? Do they need to pay preceptors/instructors more? Is it just fleecing dental students?

Most docs make 2x as much as dentists coming out of residency and less debt.
 
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This still doesn't make sense. I just checked and the most expensive medical school (tuition) is Darthmouth and USC at $67K. USC dental (tuition) is over 100K.

Med students are just as dumb as dental students and even if Med school increase their tuition to 150K/yr, they still would easily fill.

Are dental equipment that much more expensive? Do they need to pay preceptors/instructors more? Is it just fleecing dental students?

Most docs make 2x as much as dentists coming out of residency and less debt.
idc doesn’t even have paid instructors. they have pbl and faculty volunteer in their clinic
 

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SDN has all these practicing dentists, myself included, warning predents about excessive educational debt. Does it also have practicing dentists defending taking on $500,000+ in student loans? No it does not. It’s always predents rationalizing such insanity. What might this mean...:unsure:

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This still doesn't make sense. I just checked and the most expensive medical school (tuition) is Darthmouth and USC at $67K. USC dental (tuition) is over 100K.

Med students are just as dumb as dental students and even if Med school increase their tuition to 150K/yr, they still would easily fill.

Are dental equipment that much more expensive? Do they need to pay preceptors/instructors more? Is it just fleecing dental students?

Most docs make 2x as much as dentists coming out of residency and less debt.
That is the one.
 

PerioDont

5+ Year Member
Jun 7, 2015
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Everyone thinks they’re gonna be the dentist taking home 500k per year out of school when in reality most will be average making at or less than 100k after taxes.
Yep. Every NYU grad will become the next Michael Apa.

Great to aspire to, but completely unrealistic when making future plans.
 
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2thDoc11

2+ Year Member
Nov 19, 2018
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SDN has all these practicing dentists, myself included, warning predents about excessive educational debt. Does it also have practicing dentists defending taking on $500,000+ in student loans? No it does not. It’s always predents rationalizing such insanity. What might this mean...:unsure:

Big Hoss
Well if you old vets had as much knowledge about the business as us up—and-comers, maybe we’d listen!
 
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