Unpopular opinion: OMFS Internships are a waste of time

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Metzenbaum12

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Unpopular opinion, but needs to be said because everyone is thinking it
All these programs begging for non-cats, yet won’t even **** on your application if you have a slightly below average CBSE

Nobody wants to do a non-cat anymore, if they can avoid it - for good reason.

You could be an all star resident with the hand skills of Jesus (and yes, hundreds, if not thousands of these people - prior non-cats - exist all over the country and everyone probably knows of 1 or 2 at this point) yet god forbid you have even slightly below average CBSE.

You’ll end up being passed over by a dental student with a 80 and an adderall habit, clinical skills be dammed.

Why would anyone want do a non-cat since program directors have shown they don’t care?

For PDs - Watch their actions, not their words. Their actions show they don’t care. This is obvious to anyone paying attention

People aren’t stupid. Really. Most applicants have caught onto this.

You’ll end up higher on a program’s rank list sitting out a year and studying. Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying to you. PDs especially. Look at the motives - warm bodies are needed to drain abscesses in the ED at 2am so the categorical residents don’t have to do as much work. This is true.

Keep in mind, OMFS has a culture problem at a lot of places. Lots of people desperate to swap programs if they could. Look how many threads there are about seeking open PGY2 positions. It can be actively toxic in many ways, especially if you’re low on the totem pole as a non-cat (remember the “hierarchy” in surgery). Worst case scenario, the PD fields phone calls and actively talks **** about perfectly OK applicants. Yes, this happens more often, and at MANY more programs than you think. PDs are human too, and are just as susceptible to drama, gossip, and narcissism/mental disorders like everyone else. Unfortunately, the PDs that happen to be questionable human beings with a god complex are often the most vocal in calling people up.

All things that can be avoided by sitting out a year and studying for a higher score, so your application doesn't get screened out by the front desk.


Don’t blame applicants for not wanting to spend a year as punching bag and instead maximizing their chances.

There’s a reason Step 1 went pass-fail on the medical side. Program Directors in OMFS seem to have forgotten what actually matters. So many programs went unmatched. Applicants aren’t stupid. It’s just pure arrogance. The obsession over the CBSE has grown far beyond its original intent. Don’t blame applicants for playing the game you created…
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If you play the game right the internship will absolutely bypass a low cbse.....at the program you do your internship at. I have seen it happen over and over, but you are right that most outside PDs wont care. With a low CBSE you would be screened out before the PD could even decide to care. However, there are a lot of people with solid CBSEs that dont match and a noncat makes a lot of sense then. And its certainly not a waste of time. A good noncat will lay the foundation for becoming a great resident.
 
It’s not that big of an ask to get a semi respectable score on the medical boards as you are practicing hospital medicine as an OMFS.

Hand skills are what you’re there to develop and should not be an expectation. Programs need to know you can understand hospital management as people can die if you don’t.
 
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- there are many applicants with good CBSE scores AND non-cat year. It’s so competitive. It sucks. Just doing a non-cat year isn’t enough. Just getting a decent score isn’t enough.

- skills can be taught. Study ethic, not as much.

- Step 2 is more advanced than Step 1. If you can’t pass 1, we can’t risk taking you and flunking out of medical school.

- if you take off a year to study, it will be the first question they ask you on an interview. Just be prepared.

- the quality of life differs drastically between non-cat programs. If you need to study, it should be something to consider.
 
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It won’t excuse a low cbse but it definitely helps your application. Tons of noncats (more often than not) match every year, myself included. For the unmatched applicant, it’s the second best way to improve your application after improving cbse. After I did my non cat, I got about 3x as many interview invites and then matched. Most non cats I talked to said the same. The cbse obsession has gotten a little excessive I will admit. After a certain threshold I would say it shouldn’t matter so much how high your score is. After getting a decent score PDs should look for good fits and other desirable character traits. Nobody wants to do a noncat. But it helps many people accomplish their goals of matching. If you put in the work, it will get noticed
 
Doing a noncat is one of the hardest things in the world, especially at a toxic program. You have no guaranteed spot. And every time you screw up, you feel like you lost your spot. Hang in there OP, it will work its way out one way or another.
 
vagotomy said:
It’s not that big of an ask to get a semi respectable score on the medical boards as you are practicing hospital medicine as an OMFS.

Hand skills are what you’re there to develop and should not be an expectation. Programs need to know you can understand hospital management as people can die if you don’t.
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People die in hospitals all the time. even on services where people have 250s on their steps. This is a nonsense thought of a dentist. If you treat sick patients, a few might pass away. Also in the real world: you get hospital medicine to admit.

The advantage of the MD is the title and academic standardization. If you want a 4 year, do a non-cat or 2 there. If you want a 6 year, just do a GPR and get a >75 on your cbse score.

for those applying out of school: extern at Midwest and southern 6 year programs. they take people out of school more often and have cheaper medical schools. its the most assured way of matching and moving on fast.
 
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I am a practicing oral surgeon, several years out of training.

At this point I am friends with some program directors and have spoken with them about this topic.

Here’s the truth:

For 6 year spots- you absolutely must have a good cbse score. The reasoning is obvious- you must pass step 1 otherwise you will be kicked out of the program. Losing a resident would leave the program cut off at the knees. They want people who can pass. The cbse is the same test as step 1. So if you don’t have a passing score on the cbse then don’t expect to get into a 6 year slot.

For 4 year spots- Your score should be high enough to not totally embarrass your program but that’s about it. Having internship experience with a proven strong work ethic based on recommendations from the program director absolutely makes a huge difference. Also being a person that people want to spend time with. OS programs (and internships) are pretty good at weeding out the people who aren’t fully committed or have toxic personalities.
 
Interesting topic. I have not heard this one before. As I read the original thread it smells of someone who did a non-cat and didn't get an interview. Then chalks it up to a low CBSE score. But I could be (and probably am) wrong.

PD Perspective here:
Students with great CBSE right out of dental school: They are a risk. good score does not mean they have any idea how to be a resident, how to navigate the etiquettes of a hospital. What it does tell me is one or two things. either you are smart and can learn dentistry and medicine simultaneously, or you had an easy dental school and had the ability to put in a good amount of time studying, maybe both. We saw this with the COVID bump on CBSE scores. Are there students who can come out of dental school and excel/thrive in the hospital? Sure but with dental schools veering away from medicine and professionalism I believe this is getting harder. Additionally, dental school is relatively easy outside of the time constraints.

I am not sure if I understood the original post but it seemed like the person was saying that dental school provides great surgical clinical skills. Or perhaps studying in PP for a year doing dentistry somehow creates good, skilled surgeons. Both of which I will dispute and have experience to debunk.

Lastly, going into PP is a risk. Applicants need to prove to me that if they have been in PP, that when it gets tough they will not bolt for the door and go back to PP. There is no guarantee that someone with a non-cat won't do that either, but the intern/GPR person has been in the ED at 3 AM suturing up a lac on a drunk patient and still stuck with it while the person in PP was studying at a coffee shop on a Thursday at 8pm and then went home and went to bed. Minimal stress and difficult to gauge how they will respond to stress.

Applicants with 1-2 non-cats/GPR: Are "probably" more comfortable in a hospital environment and have put in the time, effort, have matured, and grown. But have not had as much time to study for the CBSE. So scores may not be as high. These individuals really vary based on the internship and experiences. But I have also had some interns who did not quite get it. Its is a 4 month working interview. Essentially, you have four months to make me overlook your bad dental school grades, lower than possible CBSE in favor or effort, persistence and maturity.

Summary from me:

If you are a dental student, have high CBSE and/or class rank and GPA with externships, good letters from academic OMS's. I will want to interview you but you better really impress at the interview. Be mature, collected, ask good, insightful questions, have some idea what you are about to get into. I will take the risk and rank you higher. If you come in and seem timid, inexperienced, lack comfort or confidence, don't ask good questions, shy, etc. I am not putting you on my list.

If you have completed a GPR or 1-2 internships I will want to see a decent CBSE and the interview will need to be strong with a good letter form the institution you are an intern at. No letter from them, no interview.

Lastly, as the last few years have shown, the trend is that greater than 50% of PGY1 OMS residents had a prelim year of some type. And the number of residents right out of dental school is dropping. This is a double edged sword in my opinion but for me, I am more inclined to take a moderate CBSE with an intern year over a stellar CBSE right out of dental school. It makes my life and the other residents lifes easier not having to teach the basics to a dental student.

These are my opinions and not everyones. I do know of several PD's who prefer students with high CBSE right out of dental school and some that need it for the medical school component of the training.

I would not discount an internship year, especially if you are in need of an application booster or didn't match and don't know what to do.
 
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I also wanted to add to this discussion:
I am now fresh into PP, passed part 1 of boards , completed my residency and a noncat intern year.

For me, my intern year was invaluable, it was a tough year and definitely stressful as there was no guarantee for a spot the following year but I stayed optimistic and very positive through that year. It paid off. Not only did I match to my top program but I learned the ins and outs of a hospital, hospital etiquette, how to properly manage patients within our own service and relay/communicate effectively to other services too (plastics, ENT, medicine, etc).

It gave me structure and the ability to really challenge myself in learning new material and surgical skills (after studying for the cbse and taking it).

I still carry some very important key surgical skills and knowledge I learned that year all the way through residency into PP. The goal is to match into the best program you possibly can that you feel, fits you the best and excel in that program. My noncat year did that for me.

I worked one on one with senior level residents that helped me prep for interviews and helped me understand what attendings, chairs, and program directors looked for in future residents. My own chairman and PD did that for me too.

I don’t think anyone should underestimate what a strong intern year can do for someone,
 
I think most people would agree, yes, a non cat year is overall valuable. You'll learn how to be a resident, round, write notes, and contribute to a service.

The issue lies within some chairmen and PD's using noncats as true scut monkeys. Maybe not allowing them to go to the OR or even perform exos in clinic. Yes, these exist. Other MD residencies have prelims/non categoricals, and they are overall treated very fair.

I think there's a trend particularly at head and neck cancer programs where treatment of residents is overall poor, and even worse for non categoricals.
 
amali said:
I think most people would agree, yes, a non cat year is overall valuable. You'll learn how to be a resident, round, write notes, and contribute to a service.

The issue lies within some chairmen and PD's using noncats as true scut monkeys. Maybe not allowing them to go to the OR or even perform exos in clinic. Yes, these exist. Other MD residencies have prelims/non categoricals, and they are overall treated very fair.

I think there's a trend particularly at head and neck cancer programs where treatment of residents is overall poor, and even worse for non categoricals.
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The reality is that there is only limited OR time for categorical interns and other residents. They should 100% get priority on going to the OR or getting higher-yield clinic cases over the non-cat. Outside of those, non-cats and categoricals are treated equally. The non-cat will (hopefully) match, and they will get those opportunities at that program they end up going to. Both non-cats and categoricals should be doing equal amounts of scut work.

Programs have to look out for themselves at the end of the day.
 
HockeyDocOMFS said:
The reality is that there is only limited OR time for categorical interns and other residents. They should 100% get priority on going to the OR or getting higher-yield clinic cases over the non-cat. Outside of those, non-cats and categoricals are treated equally. The non-cat will (hopefully) match, and they will get those opportunities at that program they end up going to. Both non-cats and categoricals should be doing equal amounts of scut work.

Programs have to look out for themselves at the end of the day.
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Not true, at my noncat program, categoricals and non categoricals were treated the same.
 
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Having completed my training at a top tier 6 year program that takes 5+ noncats a year and now working a great private practice gig, I'd like to share some insights.

1. The OP is largely correct in his/her observations.
2. If you do a non cat at a program that doesn't accept it's own non cats you are wasting your year unless you can put together a great application while doing your non cat year.
3. Most PDs and Chairs I have known don't really care about all of their residents much less non cats.
4. Seriously recommend sitting out a year or doing research or something else lighter than OMFS non cat if you need to make your application better.
5. If you still choose to do a non cat do your research on the program and the culture there. If the PD etc don't make calls for you when you interview, you might just have wasted another year.

There are always exceptions but broadly speaking the above observations are what I gathered in my time dealing with programs.

My best friend went unmatched the year I matched - he ended up matching to his dream program the next year. For each such success story I know 20 deserving non cats who worked really hard and gave it their all and had nothing to show for having spent one of their best years in service of a program that didn't care about them and did nothing to help them match.

If programs need to look out for themselves, then eager young D4s looking to do OMFS should look out for themselves and not choose the poisoned challice of "Do a non cat year and you'll automatically be a better applicant"
 
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ushaseos said:
Having completed my training at a top tier 6 year program that takes 5+ noncats a year and now working a great private practice gig, I'd like to share some insights.

1. The OP is largely correct in his/her observations.
2. If you do a non cat at a program that doesn't accept it's own non cats you are wasting your year unless you can put together a great application while doing your non cat year.
3. Most PDs and Chairs I have known don't really care about all of their residents much less non cats.
4. Seriously recommend sitting out a year or doing research or something else lighter than OMFS non cat if you need to make your application better.
5. If you still choose to do a non cat do your research on the program and the culture there. If the PD etc don't make calls for you when you interview, you might just have wasted another year.

There are always exceptions but broadly speaking the above observations are what I gathered in my time dealing with programs.

My best friend went unmatched the year I matched - he ended up matching to his dream program the next year. For each such success story I know 20 deserving non cats who worked really hard and gave it their all and had nothing to show for having spent one of their best years in service of a program that didn't care about them and did nothing to help them match.

If programs need to look out for themselves, then eager young D4s looking to do OMFS should look out for themselves and not choose the poisoned challice of "Do a non cat year and you'll automatically be a better applicant"
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do people actually match after research years?
 
FosterWallace said:
do people actually match after research years?
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I know of at least 2 residents who matched after doing research years. Those years are less stressful so they both got better CBSE scores and got a publication or two which all objectively improve your application. Most PDs and chairs I've known and spoken to don't really value non cat years all that much. Some of the 4 year programs with really smart PDs do cause they know their new residents will hit the ground running.

Even the PD who answered on this thread who, at least publicly, espouses to value non cat years has taken residents who completed GPR years - presumably for being better applicants or better fit for his program or whatever.
 
ushaseos said:
I know of at least 2 residents who matched after doing research years. Those years are less stressful so they both got better CBSE scores and got a publication or two which all objectively improve your application. Most PDs and chairs I've known and spoken to don't really value non cat years all that much. Some of the 4 year programs with really smart PDs do cause they know their new residents will hit the ground running.

Even the PD who answered on this thread who, at least publicly, espouses to value non cat years has taken residents who completed GPR years - presumably for being better applicants or better fit for his program or whatever.
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Do you mind elaborating on what a research year is? Is this apart of the match or an arrangement with a dental school? I have heard of this in the context of medicine but not dental residencies.
 
Talk to a PI or oral Surg attending who is research heavy and ask them if you can do stuff for them. Like all things you have to make the year count by making your application better.

The issues is the rules are always the same. If you do a noncat at a program that doesn't value them you need to have a great app to match the next year. Only difference is you're working 80+ hours a week vs 40 ish doing research
 
yappy said:
Do you mind elaborating on what a research year is? Is this apart of the match or an arrangement with a dental school? I have heard of this in the context of medicine but not dental residencies.
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We take a research fellow each year. It’s not a match position. You team up with the resident team and attendings to write papers based on our OR cases and clinic.

We’ve had two so far. The first got into the accelerated DMD program he wanted. The second matched into our international resident position.
 
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No offense Ivy, but that doesn't help the majority of DMD dental students interested in OMFS, especially if they don't match the first time around. Sounds like those positions waste people's time. The main goals of those who don't match is 1) to get into a program and 2) get skills transferable to general dentistry if they don't match. I've seen people match into great 6 year programs out of private practice, GPRs.

I've seen *****s from Ivy leagues match into good 6 year programs in very desirable locations out of school because thats what the PD/chairman want.

Also: 50% of all omfs don't get in out of school from the most recent match statistics these last few years. If you are young, just get the MD over with if you are applying out of school.

I strongly recommend the JPS internship in Dallas, they have a good track record of matching into 4 year programs.
Jefferson's non-cat lets you sedations in the clinic, take primary call, do flap checks. They also have a good record of interns matching.

For those wanting to get in: get a high cbse score and good grades in dental school and go to med integrated 6 year programs. If you have good grades, you will get in and skip the non-cat bull****ery. If your home program doesn't take you out of school: don't do an intern year there until you ask those who matched in the 4 year spot how many years they did there or where they come from. Most of the time: they probably won't take you again.

A-lot 4 year programs make people do 2 non-cat years or a GPR+non-cat there to match into their program (complete waste of time IMO, just go to med school at that point).

Go to places others don't want to go. Everyone in the country wants the 4 year spot at VCU, MedStar, Rutgers. You would honestly be better going to the Midwest/texas for 6 years or fresno/charlston for 4 years. Those programs just want hard workers who are polite, respectful, and show-up on time and usually stay away from ivy-leaguers with no clinical experience who spent 600k in Columbia dental school.

Don't suck up to your PD/chairman at your dental school. truthfully, they just want the best applicant and will rank people above you they just met because they were a good "fit" or had higher grades. Therefore: you are better off getting good grades, good cbse score, going on vacation, and publishing a paper or two, even contacting other programs.

If you are feeling burnt out and want money do a GPR after dental school and consider applying out of one or do a non-cat after.

Externships aren't a waste of time but you should just show up on time and be professional. Don't talk much. Do a week a max. Its more about ruining your chances.
 
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Van Der Woude said:
No offense Ivy, but that doesn't help the majority of DMD dental students interested in OMFS, especially if they don't match the first time around. Sounds like those positions wate people's time. The main goals of those who don't match is 1) to get into a program and 2) get skills transferable to general dentistry if they don't match. I've seen people match into great 6 year programs out of private practice, GPRs.

I've seen *****s from Ivy leagues match into good 6 year programs in very desirable locations out of school because thats what the PD/chairman want.

I strong recommend the JPS internship in Dallas, they have a good track record of matching into 4 year programs.
Jefferson's non-cat lets you sedations in the clinic, take primary call, do flap checks. They also have a good record of interns matching.

For those wanting to get in: get a high cbse score and good grades in dental school and go to med integrated 6 year programs. If you have good grades, you will get in and skip the non-cat bull****ery. If your home program doesn't take you out of school: don't do an intern year there until you ask those who matched in the 4 year spot how many years they did there or where they come from. Most of the time: they probably won't take you again.

Alot 4 year programs make people do 2 non-cat years or a GPR+non-cat there to match into their program (complete waste of time IMO, just go to med school at that point).

Go to places others don't want to go. Everyone in the country wants the 4 year spot at VCU, MedStar, Rutgers. You would honestly be better going to the Midwest/texas for 6 years or fresno/charlston for 4 years. Those programs just want hard workers who are polite, respectful, and show-up on time and not surgery gods who spent 600k in columbia dental school.

Don't suck up to your PD/chairman at your dental school. truthfully, they just want the best applicant and will rank people above you they just met because they were a good fit or had higher grades. Therefore: you are better off getting good grades, good cbse score, going on vacation, and publishing a paper or two.

If you are feeling burnt out and want money do a GPR afterwards and consider applying out of one or do a non-cat after.

Externships aren't a waste of time but you should just show up on time and be professional. Don't talk much. Do a week a max. Its more about ruining your chances.
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Despite my hate speech about non cat years being a waste, JPS is the one non cat I will defend to the death. I know Dr. Stella - he takes it personally when his kids don't match and works so hard on match day to get them positions if they didn't match. He, Drs. Kao, Kim, Warner and Williams are all good people. They will work you hard but you will develop a ton of skills and they do care deeply about your progression along the OMFS pathway.
 
ushaseos said:
Despite my hate speech about non cat years being a waste, JPS is the one non cat I will defend to the death. I know Dr. Stella - he takes it personally when his kids don't match and works so hard on match day to get them positions if they didn't match. He, Drs. Kao, Kim, Warner and Williams are all good people. They will work you hard but you will develop a ton of skills and they do care deeply about your progression along the OMFS pathway.
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agreed. i will disparage the north east program internships all day outside of Jefferson. They are terrible. Don't go there if you are a good applicant just go to med school. If you don't match, do yourself a favor and intern at JPS or Houston. They are better programs and you don't deal with as much stupid non-sense gate-keeping.
 
If you don’t Match OMFS, there’s always perio…

IMG_1347.gif


Big Hoss
 
Interesting. I would like to add that it takes courage to talk about this. It will cause waves to form. Appreciate the conversation we are all having... including the perio roasting. Lol
 
Having mentored students who went either/and both (Research year + improve CBSE & Non-categorical), I observe the same as @annonymousOFMS above.
 
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