UPenn vs. Columbia

Started by Papa Doc
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Well 32k is a Upenm subsidized loan and 66k is regular stafford loan.

Not sure about the interest structure for either tbh.

What they are getting at is, even with deferral after residency, you will be paying more than 100k. Stafford loans, depending on the type (I think all of them now) accrue interest during your medical education. For example, just this semester alone my loans from January have accrued over 1,000, and that's just one semester's worth of loans (my past loans didn't accrue interest). Even assuming your loan amount is only 100k at the end of medical school, 5 years of postgrad training brings that up to 150k if you pay it in your first year of being an attending. Assuming you don't end up paying it off in one year, you will be looking at even more by the time you pay it off in increments.
 
Have you tried asking Penn for more aid given your Columbia offer? They have a good aid program so they might be able to accommodate you.

I wouldn't rely on your parent's income. A lot of things happen. My father lost his job my 3rd of medical school which drastically increased my loans. Also, just practically speaking, even if your parents are making $360k/year....after taxes (let's say 200k net)....you're essentially asking for more than 1/2 of a full years salary to attend Penn over Columbia. As happy as your parents are apparently to foot the bill, I'm sure they would appreciate not having that sort of long-term financial burden while you're in school.... Especially since you're choosing between two excellent schools, with similar curriculums, and near-equal opportunities for research and footing in "prestige factor" during the residency match. It's not UPenn vs. some lower ranked state institution.

Also (re: not taking into account financial costs)...I think some older docs don't entirely understand how pricey medical education has gotten. Medical tuition and graduate loan interest rates have gone up a lot, especially in the context that physician pay is not as high as what it used to be as more clinicians switch from private practice to managed care organization models (i.e. salary). 100k repaid over 10 years amounts to about $140,000 in payments at $1200/month. That's in addition to any other loans you have to take out. You also won't be paying $1200/month during residency on your PGY salary and it will likely take you longer than 10 years to pay those off.

I'd definitely go with the 100k savings at Columbia. You'll get a great education at both and your parents WILL appreciate it (even though they may be very supportive and not openly admit it).

Unfortunately they are not able to match because they do not cover living expenses. I understand that though, I suppose it would be selfish to ask that of my parents even if they could afford to do so. Going to keep all of this in mind.
 
What they are getting at is, even with deferral after residency, you will be paying more than 100k. Stafford loans, depending on the type (I think all of them now) accrue interest during your medical education. For example, just this semester alone my loans from January have accrued over 1,000, and that's just one semester's worth of loans (my past loans didn't accrue interest). Even assuming your loan amount is only 100k at the end of medical school, 5 years of postgrad training brings that up to 150k if you pay it in your first year of being an attending. Assuming you don't end up paying it off in one year, you will be looking at even more by the time you pay it off in increments.
Well said. Thank you for the advice. I will return to this thread when I have the final offer from both schools.
 
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Hey guys I'm very close to making my decision and just wanted to drop in for one less comment. I have decided to purse an MBA in health management as well as the MD with the ultimate goal of opening up/or helping run a dermatology clinic in South Florida (where I grew up).

I suppose I'm also wondering if Dermatology matching differs between the two schools.

Thank you and best of luck to all of you currently deciding as well.
 
Hey guys I'm very close to making my decision and just wanted to drop in for one less comment. I have decided to purse an MBA in health management as well as the MD with the ultimate goal of opening up/or helping run a dermatology clinic in South Florida (where I grew up).

I suppose I'm also wondering if Dermatology matching differs between the two schools.

Thank you and best of luck to all of you currently deciding as well.

May I ask why you've all of a sudden chosen dermatology when you originally posted something about IM subspecialties?
 
May I ask why you've all of a sudden chosen dermatology when you originally posted something about IM subspecialties?

counting+money.jpg


Got to.
 
May I ask why you've all of a sudden chosen dermatology when you originally posted something about IM subspecialties?
Well I was in between that and Derm and have ultimately decided to pursue Derm unless I end up falling in love with something else. Also I feel as if that market is huge in the Miami area where I want to settle down.
 
Well I was in between that and Derm and have ultimately decided to pursue Derm unless I end up falling in love with something else. Also I feel as if that market is huge in the Miami area where I want to settle down.

Just my advice, I would try to go into med school with an open mind about specialties. Although it's good to have an idea so you can possibly start some research early on, I wouldn't automatically close off other things.

Also, I definitely wouldn't pick a specialty based on the current salaries or job markets. You won't be practicing independently for at least 8 years (for derm), and the market could be completely different. I'm also skeptical about how good the derm market in Miami could actually be. I'm sure there's a pretty high demand, but I'd be surprised if the supply isn't already saturated. I'd bet that dermatologists there actually make less money than in other places because it's such a desirable place to live.

All of that being said, you can match into derm from either school and I doubt there is much difference.
 
Just my advice, I would try to go into med school with an open mind about specialties. Although it's good to have an idea so you can possibly start some research early on, I wouldn't automatically close off other things.

Also, I definitely wouldn't pick a specialty based on the current salaries or job markets. You won't be practicing independently for at least 8 years (for derm), and the market could be completely different. I'm also skeptical about how good the derm market in Miami could actually be. I'm sure there's a pretty high demand, but I'd be surprised if the supply isn't already saturated. I'd bet that dermatologists there actually make less money than in other places because it's such a desirable place to live.

All of that being said, you can match into derm from either school and I doubt there is much difference.
Thank you for the advice. I am keeping my mind open just choosing a track so that I can't get some research and such done early on. And I could definitely see that but I love living down here so I would sacrifice the salary a bit for that. And I hope the MBA makes me desireable to perhaps help an already existing practice run more efficiently.

But that's definitely what I figured that either place can match me there.
 
If you were trying to persue a MBA, I think Penn would be a better fit with its strong emphasis on dual-degree programs and integrated campus. This is their selling point. Have you gone to their revisit? They make it clear that this is something that they are very proud about. You can't really beat a MBA from Wharton haha.
 
If you were trying to persue a MBA, I think Penn would be a better fit with its strong emphasis on dual-degree programs and integrated campus. This is their selling point. Have you gone to their revisit? They make it clear that this is something that they are very proud about. You can't really beat a MBA from Wharton haha.
That's actually something that I loved about penn at revisit. The campuses are so integrated and it would be amazing to get an MBA from Wharton lol
 
That's actually something that I loved about penn at revisit. The campuses are so integrated and it would be amazing to get an MBA from Wharton lol
Definitely consider the opportunities available from either institution. In the end when you're talking about the difference between $0k and $100k, it's less of a deal than say $200k vs $300k. It's still money, but you are going to be much less worried about debt from the get go as compared to the majority of graduating medical students. There's no way you can go wrong with either institution, but that doesn't mean there aren't differences between the two. I will say though that getting an MBA just to run a clinic is likely not worth it. MBA's are more for broader picture type things like hospital administration, consulting, or policy work, where a degree can help you climb the ladder quickly. An MBA is not that good for teaching you how to run a business.

Also let your dad keep his hard earned money regardless of your loan situation. You will earn more than enough money to cover your own loans once you practice.
 
That's actually something that I loved about penn at revisit. The campuses are so integrated and it would be amazing to get an MBA from Wharton lol

Columbia has a great MBA program as well just a 10 minute commute away. More importantly, Columbia allows students to apply to do their MBA degree (and all 2nd degrees, which we have more of anyone when you add bioethics, narrative medicine, biostatistics, etc to the standard mba/jd/mph options) at OTHER institutions. If you were a derm level candidate, you probably wouldn't have any trouble getting into another institution like Wharton for your MBA.
 
I don't think that you should use this to base your decision since other than UTSW I know nothing of these programs, but here are the last two years in Derm/Plastics
Derm:
UCSF
Northwestern
Sinai
UTexas
Columbia
NYU
Jackson Memorial
NYU


Plastics
UTSW (best in the country arguably)
UCLA
Brigham/Harvard
 
I'd probably echo what was said above about remaining open with regards to specialty. I was one of those people who was extremely set on one specialty and now I'm probably not going into it. I even did research for 2 yrs in said specialty. I also agree that MBA really isn't what you're looking for. I had a similar idea with regards to potentially getting an MBA, but I have met several people who run private practices who say it really isn't worth it. I would focus on really looking at the medical schools themselves, because the future really is variable. I was lucky in that I had a lot of great schools to choose from (including Penn), but I decided on Columbia. Both offer equally immense opportunities. I think it is safe to say that if you do moderately well at either place you will probably match into a top program in virtually any field. I've had the opportunity to help during match day for the 4th years and everyone I talked to matched into their top choice. There is just a feeling here at Columbia that if you follow the curriculum and do moderately well your success in matching is almost guaranteed. And while I don't go to Penn, I imagine the Penn students will tell you something similar. I think this a product of going to schools like Penn and Columbia which are honestly some of the best medical institutions in the western world. I wouldn't split hairs trying to analyze match lists when there are so many missing variables. If you feel like Penn is the only place that will make you happy, then I would go regardless of the money. However, I think you would be just as happy here at Columbia.

I'm finishing up my first year here at Columbia, and I can honestly say its been one of the best years of my life. It is an amazing place. I've already published a paper, classes are low stress (p/f and if you fail you just retake the exam), and I've made some really good friends (including a couple best friends). I've been able to hear and speak to so many expert researchers, including 3 noble laureates (2 of whom are alums). A lot of our prof and residents are Alumni. NYP generally prefers P&S graduates and there seems to be a pipeline for graduates to continue at Columbia. I've seen very few institutions that favor their own the way Columbia does. The research opportunities and funding for students are breathtaking, the dedication of our professors is unreal (one of our professors attends every class and takes notes for the class on each lecture), and NYP has so so so many clinical opportunities.

On top of that, you get to live in NYC. Something you might not have the opportunity to do again. And in terms of parties, there is nothing like going out with your classmates in NYC. The culture here is really low stress and people have so many interests outside of medicine. I've gone out more in the past year than I have in UG. Our class has gone to see the NY philharmonic, the Yankees, the Rangers, nutcracker at the NY Opera, wicked on broadway, and a ton of other stuff. People say you don't have time to go out in medical school, but at least at Columbia, you have so much time to explore the city. We also get to take advantage of the city within our curriculum, For example, we take narrative medicine classes (humanities-like classes) around NYC. I'm taking mine right now at the MOMA. And other students are at the MET, the Frick, ect.

I think Columbia is a really special place and I've done so many awesome things this year. I really feel like being here is a once in a lifetime opportunity. I think anyone would be happy here, and if you get to save an extra $100K & walk away from medical school DEBT FREE, I'm not sure how any sane person can turn down Columbia.
 
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