USC First YR Cost of Attendance $162k 2022-2023

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He doesn't have cylinders. He has an electric car. šŸ˜†
Yeah, some people enjoy traveling to see the world. I enjoy driving a new car every 2-3 years. I don't need to see the world for I already live in the best cournty in the world.

Bmw will release their new electric i7. I am still waiting for Lucid and Mercedes EQS to fix all of their problems before I lease them.

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A lot of reasons:

1. I still have to save for my retirement. 401k money is not enough. How about the social security money? I wouldnā€™t count on it. The passive income from my rental properties is not enoughā€¦itā€™s only a fraction of my ortho income. I need to buy more properties with my money. I donā€™t want to take out any more loans. As you get older, your medical bills will increase. At one point, when you canā€™t no longer walk, you will need to hire a nurse to take care of you.

2. I have children. I can sell our rental properties and live off that money. But I want to save these properties for my childrenā€¦..in case they quit colleges and donā€™t have good paying jobs.

3. Our income has dropped significantly because we didnā€™t put in the same effort as we did when we were younger. My wife only has enough patients to work 1.5 days/wk. And I only work 4.5 days/wk (9 days/month at 4 of my own offices and 10 days/month at 2 corp offices). I plan to close one of my 4 offices by the end of this year because it is losing patients and I don't have any more motivation to build it back up.

4. I am 50. I canā€™t just stay home doing nothing all day long. Itā€™s boring. Gardening is too hot. Eating out too often will make me fat. I donā€™t have a lot of hobbies. And work gives me a lot of satisfactions.

5. I paid off my last debt not too long ago (February last year). So I still need to make a lot more for my retirement. I didnā€™t stop working hard when I paid off the $450k student loans 15 years ago because there were still a lot of expenses. I donā€™t want to stop working hard now because I want to continue to enjoy this comfortable lifestyle for many more years. Itā€™s never enough. Living in CA is expensive.

Charles, your post is a tell-tale sign of how hard it is to hustle in dentistry.

1. Whatā€™s your target on the 401k? It is part of a portfolio (along with your other investments). With the 4% rule, I think your 401k should be fine if you work for another 10-15 years, even as a part time. Most dentists I know shoot for 2-5M in their 401k. That would be 100-200k/yr income withdrawal rate without touching your principal amount. Also, donā€™t write off social security income yet. Iā€™m 43 and Iā€™m not writing it off yet. If you worked 35 years and averaged 100k+/yr over that period, you have no problem getting the maximum SS benefits, probably 6-7k/month by the time you retire. Currently itā€™s about 4,200/month if you wait until age 70. Thatā€™s a decent income between 401k and SS my friend!

2. Thatā€™s a good strategy and insurance policy for your kids.

3. This is the point I made in an earlier post. The 3 phases of dental income are; growth, peak and slowing down. You are in the 3rd phase now and you and your wifeā€™s income will not be as high as the first 2 phases. You are watching your bodies more than your bank accounts now. Health is the real wealth.

4. You are still young at age 50. If you have downtime, learn new set of skills or new language. Join a local social group. Keep your brain and body active... your future older self with thank you for it.

5. You won my friend. No debt. Empty nester life soon and still 50. Time to make life about you. Consider relocating to a cheaper city. I hear Arizona is the new California, and we have a good mutual SDN friend who lives there that can show you around.
 
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Yeah, some people enjoy traveling to see the world. I enjoy driving a new car every 2-3 years. I don't need to see the world for I already live in the best cournty in the world.

Bmw will release their new electric i7. I am still waiting for Lucid and Mercedes EQS to fix all of their problems before I lease them.
Why in the world would anyone purchase an ELECTRIC bmw?
 
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Charles, your post is a tell-tale sign of how hard it is to hustle in dentistry.

1. Whatā€™s your target on the 401k? It is part of a portfolio (along with your other investments). With the 4% rule, I think your 401k should be fine if you work for another 10-15 years, even as a part time. Most dentists I know shoot for 2-5M in their 401k. That would be 100-200k/yr income withdrawal rate without touching your principal amount. Also, donā€™t write off social security income yet. Iā€™m 43 and Iā€™m not writing it off yet. If you worked 35 years and averaged 100k+/yr over that period, you have no problem getting the maximum SS benefits, probably 6-7k/month by the time you retire. Currently itā€™s about 4,200/month if you wait until age 70. Thatā€™s a decent income between 401k and SS my friend!
I need a lot more than that every month. Thatā€™s a big lifestyle downgrade if I only collect that much every month. I donā€™t have any mortgage payment but I still have to pay at least $3k a month in property taxes/insurance/maintenancesā€¦for the rest of my life. With inflation, everything will be much more expensive.

TBH, I donā€™t even know what I have in 401k. I just put in the maximum amount that my CPA tells me to contribute every year....ever since I started working 20 years ago. I donā€™t want to count on the SS money when I officially retire in 15 years. A lot of things will probably changeā€¦.change in retirement ageā€¦the benefit amount may be lowered. Itā€™s always better to overestimate. I know when we die we canā€™t take the money with us but our children will benefit from our sweat and labor.
4. You are still young at age 50. If you have downtime, learn new set of skills or new language. Join a local social group. Keep your brain and body active... your future older self with thank you for it.
My wife is doing some of the things that you mentionedā€¦..joining bible study groups, coaching the academic decathalon team at my sonā€™s former junior HS, chatting on the phone with her other "stay-at-home mom" friends etc. I donā€™t find any of things that she does enjoyable. I find doing ortho is a lot more fun, especially now when I no longer have to talk to the referring GPs nor have to please every patient.
 
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Why in the world would anyone purchase an ELECTRIC bmw?

The Germans will dominate the luxury EV cars within the next 5 years. Between Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, and VW. Tesla is a technology company, but the Germans build cars far better (in terms of luxury products) than Tesla and other American cars TBH. Tesla will be the Ford of EV cars in the future; affordable, for the masses and efficient.
 
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5. You won my friend. No debt. Empty nester life soon and still 50. Time to make life about you. Consider relocating to a cheaper city. I hear Arizona is the new California, and we have a good mutual SDN friend who lives there that can show you around.
Nah, I canā€™t give up CAā€™s beautiful weather and delicious food. The whole point of my hard work for all these years is to be able to retire anywhere I want. I actually downgraded a little bit. I sold my 5400sf house a couple of months ago beause the house was too big and I was tired of paying for all the maintenances. My son will go to college soon and I don't need a big house.

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And I bought this smaller 3950sf one (below). Yes, 2THMVR, this smaller house has epoxy coating in the garage. I plan to install a car lift so I can make room to house another toy car in the future. I used the down size money to purchase another investment property.

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The Germans will dominate the luxury EV cars within the next 5 years. Between Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, and VW. Tesla is a technology company, but the Germans build cars far better (in terms of luxury products) than Tesla and other American cars TBH. Tesla will be the Ford of EV cars in the future; affordable, for the masses and efficient.
Yeah I miss the luxury interior and comfortable ride quality of the German cars. Thatā€™s why I returned the model X and leased the X7. Electric cars are the future. I wish they could put the Teslaā€™s motor inside that X7. Thatā€™d be perfect.
 
Nah, I canā€™t give up CAā€™s beautiful weather and food. The whole point of my hard work for all these years is to be able to retire anywhere I want. I actually downgraded a little bit. I sold my 5400sf house a couple of months ago beause the house was too big and I was tired of paying for all the maintenances. My son will go to college soon and I don't need a big house.

View attachment 353697

And I bought this smaller 3950sf one (below). Yes, 2THMVR, this smaller house has epoxy coating in the garage. I plan to install a car lift so I can make room to house another toy car in the future. I used the down size money to purchase another investment property.

View attachment 353698

Nice homes. X7 in the garage. You are making these pre-dents blush and tempt them to take those big student loans. lol

All jokes aside, you deserve it. I drive a Macan Turbo. X7 is way too big. Iā€™m considering an EV by next year when the supply chain improves. I donā€™t think I will ever move from my current home of 5,000 sft + 2,000 sft basement. Moving sucks!
 
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The Germans will dominate the luxury EV cars within the next 5 years. Between Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, and VW. Tesla is a technology company, but the Germans build cars far better (in terms of luxury products) than Tesla and other American cars TBH. Tesla will be the Ford of EV cars in the future; affordable, for the masses and efficient.
Iā€™ll say this for the people in the back to hear. There is no way on Godā€™s green earth that I am grinding through school to then graduate and get anything less than a 4 wheeled machine that is loud, loaded with horse power, and that spews sweet petrol. I get electric cars have more torque, but they just simply cannot replace something like a porsche 911
 
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Iā€™ll say this for the people in the back to hear. There is no way on Godā€™s green earth that I am grinding through school to then graduate and get anything less than a 4 wheeled machine that is loud, loaded with horse power, and that spews sweet petrol. I get electric cars have more torque, but they just simply cannot replace something like a porsche 911

I agree. I own a 2021 Carrera S and I donā€™t think (at least my generation) anyone who grew up with the dream to own an electric car. EV cars are cool to have, but they are not cheap and as fun as sports ICE cars, IMO.
 
I agree. I own a 2021 Carrera S and I donā€™t think (at least my generation) anyone who grew up with the dream to own an electric car. EV cars are cool to have, but they are not cheap and as fun as sports ICE cars, IMO.
Iā€™ll say this for the people in the back to hear. There is no way on Godā€™s green earth that I am grinding through school to then graduate and get anything less than a 4 wheeled machine that is loud, loaded with horse power, and that spews sweet petrol. I get electric cars have more torque, but they just simply cannot replace something like a porsche 911
Well. Now that we've sidetracked to a topic that I like. Yes. The 911s are amazing. Had three of them. 2 Twin Turbo 911s and a 911 cab. Great cars, but ............... boring after a while. 911s are no longer sportscars. They are bloated, heavy GT cars. They are cars attempting to please all facets of your driving duties. Carrera S is good. The GT3/GT3RS cars are better.

I don't like cars that coddle me like a Lexus. Had a R8 V10 for awhile. Great car. 525 horsepower. All naturally aspirated. Red lined around 8500. A GLORIOUS sound indeed. Great car, but it was designed to be a daily driver exotic. Inside felt like any ordinary Audi. Problem with high horsepower cars is that you cannot exploit all that potential speed without possibly going to jail. I didn't go to jail, but spent an entire day with the DUI losers in a court mandated class, high insurance premium, $$ for the ticket due to an Exhibition of Speed ticket. In Arizona exhibition of speed is a class one misdemeanor, which is the highest classification of a misdemeanor offense that we have. It also carries with it eight points that would go on your license. If you get convicted a second time within two years, this turns into a felony. Yea. Sold the R8 after this fun experience.

I like cars that are abusive to drive and are flawed. (kind of like my wife ;)). Research the Alfa Romeo 4C. You don't need high horsepower. You just need a very light chassis. The 4C has a carbon fiber tub with aluminum substructures. It weighs around 2500 pounds. 240 horsepower. Has a power to weight ratio of a modern GT3. These cars don't hide all the mechanical sounds. The 4C is loud and obnoxious. Can you daily drive a 4C? Absolutely not unless you are insane.

Electric cars. At this point they are simply appliances to move you from A to B. It is the future, I will be buying an electric car as a COMMUTER car soon. As for electric sportscars. There is no denying the advantages electric has. But there is far more to the "driving" experience than instant torque and speed. I'll pass.
 
Well. Now that we've sidetracked to a topic that I like. Yes. The 911s are amazing. Had three of them. 2 Twin Turbo 911s and a 911 cab. Great cars, but ............... boring after a while. 911s are no longer sportscars. They are bloated, heavy GT cars. They are cars attempting to please all facets of your driving duties. Carrera S is good. The GT3/GT3RS cars are better.

I don't like cars that coddle me like a Lexus. Had a R8 V10 for awhile. Great car. 525 horsepower. All naturally aspirated. Red lined around 8500. A GLORIOUS sound indeed. Great car, but it was designed to be a daily driver exotic. Inside felt like any ordinary Audi. Problem with high horsepower cars is that you cannot exploit all that potential speed without possibly going to jail. I didn't go to jail, but spent an entire day with the DUI losers in a court mandated class, high insurance premium, $$ for the ticket due to an Exhibition of Speed ticket. In Arizona exhibition of speed is a class one misdemeanor, which is the highest classification of a misdemeanor offense that we have. It also carries with it eight points that would go on your license. If you get convicted a second time within two years, this turns into a felony. Yea. Sold the R8 after this fun experience.

I like cars that are abusive to drive and are flawed. (kind of like my wife ;)). Research the Alfa Romeo 4C. You don't need high horsepower. You just need a very light chassis. The 4C has a carbon fiber tub with aluminum substructures. It weighs around 2500 pounds. 240 horsepower. Has a power to weight ratio of a modern GT3. These cars don't hide all the mechanical sounds. The 4C is loud and obnoxious. Can you daily drive a 4C? Absolutely not unless you are insane.

Electric cars. At this point they are simply appliances to move you from A to B. It is the future, I will be buying an electric car as a COMMUTER car soon. As for electric sportscars. There is no denying the advantages electric has. But there is far more to the "driving" experience than instant torque and speed. I'll pass.
See this is what they should be teaching in dental school
 
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Nice homes. X7 in the garage. You are making these pre-dents blush and tempt them to take those big student loans. lol
Actually, a few of our non-dental friendsā€™ kids wanted to pursue dentistry when they visited us. I didnā€™t even need to convince them. I did warn them about the high student loan debt but this didnā€™t change their mind. Just last weekend, an optometry friend asked my wife to write the letter of recommendation for her son. My niece helped my wife a few times at her office during her college years. She is now a dentist and will start perio residency this Fall. And as you already knew, my nephew is a D2.
All jokes aside, you deserve it. I drive a Macan Turbo. X7 is way too big. Iā€™m considering an EV by next year when the supply chain improves. I donā€™t think I will ever move from my current home of 5,000 sft + 2,000 sft basement. Moving sucks!
We need a 7-seat SUV because we usually take our parents out to eat with the kids. My wife drives the X7. It is our weekend car. I use the model S for my daily commute because of the autopilot feature. I just get behind a slow moving truck (to avoid other cars cutting into my lane)ā€¦activate the autopilotā€¦.and the car drives me home. The X7 has this autodrive feature too but itā€™s not as good as the Teslaā€™s one. Itā€™s good that the German automakers produce more electric cars to compete with Tesla. Iā€™ll have more choices in the future. This X7 will probably be our last gas car when the lease ends in 2 years. Even with the V8 engine, it feels slow in comparison to the Tesla. After driving an electric car for a while, it felt a bit inconvenient to have to go back to dealing with the key, start/stop button, gas station, clunky transmission, and the required routine maintenance (oil change) of an ICE car.
 
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I didn't go to jail, but spent an entire day with the DUI losers in a court mandated class, high insurance premium, $$ for the ticket due to an Exhibition of Speed ticket.
There has to be more to this story. Did you street race? How fast did you pass that traffic cop? lol

I love my 992 Carrera S in Aventurine green. Itā€™s 2WD. I agree, this new generation of 911ā€™s are more tamed beasts. But I love it!

Edit: The photo of car was good for 48 hours.
 
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There has to be more to this story. Did you street race? How fast did you pass that traffic cop? lol

I love my 992 Carrera S in Aventurine green. Itā€™s 2WD. I agree, this new generation of 911ā€™s are more tamed beasts. But I love it!
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Nice car! It's possible for you to own such nice car because you're a dentist. And you think denstistry is a horrible profession.
 
Nice car! It's possible for you to own such nice car because you're a dentist. And you think denstistry is a horrible profession.

My story is chronicled through my SDN posts, going all the way back to 2005 as a pre-dent. I graduated in 2010 with about 200k in student loans. Did a lot of risky decisions (opened my first office 6 months after graduation). Leveraged and opened more businesses. I didnā€™t rush to get married. I donā€™t have kids, yet. I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time when 2008 recession and covid hit. A lot of those opportunities were based on more on luck and little less on hard work. They say luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Most dentists are risk averse, even if luck showed them the way - in my experience. Would I advise someone to take out 600k+ in student loans today? I would say no to most pre-dents who are considering dentistry light heartedly. I have former DS classmates who are still employees, donā€™t own a home yet, etc. They too had 200k in student loans, but I canā€™t imagine if their life would be better if they graduated with 600k+ in student loans.
 
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My story is chronicled through my SDN posts, going all the way back to 2005 as a pre-dent. I graduated in 2010 with about 200k in student loans. Did a lot of risky decisions (opened my first office 6 months after graduation). Leveraged and opened more businesses. I didnā€™t rush to get married. I donā€™t have kids, yet. I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time when 2008 recession and covid hit. A lot of those opportunities were based on more on luck and little less on hard work. They say luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Most dentists are risk averse, even if luck showed them the way - in my experience. Would I advise someone to take out 600k+ in student loans today? I would say no to most pre-dents who are considering dentistry light heartedly. I have former DS classmates who are still employees, donā€™t own a home yet, etc. They too had 200k in student loans, but I canā€™t imagine if their life would be better if they graduated with 600k+ in student loans.
Are you a partner in any restaurant businesses?
 
I recently talked with a pre-dent and her mother, the girl is starting dental school this fall at an expensive private institution in the East Coast (her only option as she got rejected by our state school). COA is $136k for the first year, and of course incoming students should expect tuition increase for their 2nd, 3rd and 4th year. She is taking out full loans for her dental education, which I estimate to be close to $600k when she graduates in 2026. When I asked if she thinks she would be able to pay back that huge amount of debt, both the girl and her mother said that the school and the government would not give out the loan if they think one can't pay it back. So both of them have no concerns regarding the debt. At that point I don't think I need to further the discussion, I can't tell people what they don't want to hear.
 
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I recently talked with a pre-dent and her mother, the girl is starting dental school this fall at an expensive private institution in the East Coast (her only option as she got rejected by our state school). COA is $136k for the first year, and of course incoming students should expect tuition increase for their 2nd, 3rd and 4th year. She is taking out full loans for her dental education, which I estimate to be close to $600k when she graduates in 2026. When I asked if she thinks she would be able to pay back that huge amount of debt, both the girl and her mother said that the school and the government would not give out the loan if they think one can't pay it back. So both of them have no concerns regarding the debt. At that point I don't think I need to further the discussion, I can't tell people what they don't want to hear.
Thatā€™s crazy..
 
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Are you a partner in any restaurant businesses?

No. Thatā€™s small margins industry. Plus this is a bad time to be in the restaurant business due to labor shortages and supplies inflation.

I started in dental offices, then leveraged that into commercial and industrial real estate, then turned some of the real estate into trucking/logistics use, then went back to dental field and started a dental assisting program (there is a shortage of dental assistant programs), then I started to sell my dental offices and turned the buyers into tenants, and now Iā€™m down to 1 practice and limited my exposure to the issues within dentistry - mostly by dental insurances and inflation. All my other businesses are run and managed by employees - Iā€™m not actively involved from day to day, since they are mostly real estate.
 
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I would admit as a pre-dent in 2019, I did not care how much it would cost me to go to dental school, because I didn't have money in the first place, but now being in school I think going above 400K+ is something I wouldn't do. My point is dental students and dentists are not the ones to listen due to being subjective, thus pre-dents I would advise to really spend time and search around all about what does it mean to take a huge amount of loans, pay them back, accrued interest, etc. Just a simple example, yet most people don't know origination fees. In a nutshell, it's a fee that you pay to get those loans. For unsubsidized loans is 1.057% and for direct plus is 4.228%. This means by taking $20,250 of unsubsidized loans, maximum per semester, you actually only getting $20,036; however, you are responsible to pay $20,250 plus the interest that is accruing. That difference of $214 plus interest over the years will add up. You may say that is not much for what I am getting. Okay, going to school for $100K+ per year means you need to borrow more than $20K+ per semester, and the rest of the money you borrow to cover the costs will come from direct plus with 4.228% origination fees and a higher interest rate (+1% compared to unsubsidized). And with $400K+, the origination fees will really add up to tens of thousands before you pay them back (estimate). Things will add up pretty quickly and by the time you pay off, you will be far away from that principal amount (the total amount you took). I am asking you to spend your time figuring out all these details, because you literally will spend thousands of hours working to pay them back. Listening to others' personal experiences will also make you financially literate. The goal here is to make one of the most important decisions in your life by being as objective as possible.
 
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My story is chronicled through my SDN posts, going all the way back to 2005 as a pre-dent. I graduated in 2010 with about 200k in student loans. Did a lot of risky decisions (opened my first office 6 months after graduation). Leveraged and opened more businesses. I didnā€™t rush to get married. I donā€™t have kids, yet. I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time when 2008 recession and covid hit. A lot of those opportunities were based on more on luck and little less on hard work. They say luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Most dentists are risk averse, even if luck showed them the way - in my experience. Would I advise someone to take out 600k+ in student loans today? I would say no to most pre-dents who are considering dentistry light heartedly. I have former DS classmates who are still employees, donā€™t own a home yet, etc. They too had 200k in student loans, but I canā€™t imagine if their life would be better if they graduated with 600k+ in student loans.
You were able to make those risky decisions because you're a dentist. Your good stable dental income would help bring you out of financial troubles if you lost your money on these risky investments. If you weren't a dentist, who had good income from your thriving practice, the banks wouldn't loan you the money for your other investments.
 
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I would admit as a pre-dent in 2019, I did not care how much it would cost me to go to dental school, because I didn't have money in the first place, but now being in school I think going above 400K+ is something I wouldn't do. My point is dental students and dentists are not the ones to listen due to being subjective, thus pre-dents I would advise to really spend time and search around all about what does it mean to take a huge amount of loan, pay them back, accrued interest, etc. Just a simple example, yet most people don't know origination fees. In a nutshell, it's a fee that you pay to get those loans. For unsubsidized loans is 1.057% and for direct plus is 4.228%. This means by taking $20,250 of unsubsidized loans, maximum per semester, you actually only getting $20,036; however, you are responsible to pay $20,250 plus the interest that is accruing. That difference of $214 plus interest over the years will add up. You may say that is not much for what I am getting. Okay, going to school for $100K+ per year means you need to borrow more than $20K+ per semester, and the rest of the money you borrow to cover the costs will come from direct plus with 4.228% origination fees and higher interest rate (+1% compared to unsubsidized). And with $400K+, the origination fees will really add up to tens of thousands before you pay them back (estimate). Things will add up pretty quickly and by the time you pay off you will be far away from that principal amount (the total amount you took). I am asking you to spend your time figuring out all these details, because you literally will spend thousands of hours working to pay them back. Listening to others' personal experiences will also make you financially literate. The goal here is to make one of the most important decisions in your life by being as objective as possible.

+1.

Also, being a pre-dent to being a dentist is at least 5 years timeline. The world is not just going to wait for a pre-dent to finish school and expect the finances they thought they would have to be the same after 5 years. Core Inflation in the last 2 years has been 10%+. Interest rates are about to sky rocket next 3-12 months. So while students are in school, that dream career can suddenly turn to a challenging one. Iā€™m not saying thatā€™s necessarily the case for every pre-dent, but carrying $600k+ student loans can easily feel like carrying $800k+ gorilla when you factor in everything else happening in the world/economy today. They have to step back and look at the big picture. They have to consider the best case and worst case scenarios equally. Nothing is guaranteed but the student loans.
 
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You were able to make those risky decisions because you're a dentist. Your good stable dental income would help bring you out of financial troubles if you lost your money on these risky investments. If you weren't a dentist, who had good income from your thriving practice, the banks wouldn't loan you the money for your other investments.

A ā€œluckyā€ dentist. I donā€™t think I could do most of what I did over the last 10 years in 2022 and beyond for sure. Good times have been fading in dentistry for decades now, and the door is almost closed for the majority - due to increasing student loans and stagnant reimbursements from dental insurances. Medicaid hasnā€™t raised most of their fees since 1990ā€™s. Delta dental PPO hasnā€™t raised their fees since late 2000ā€™s. The maths doesnā€™t add up, all we have now is a debt market for young dentists.
 
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A ā€œluckyā€ dentist. I donā€™t think I could do most of what I did over the last 10 years in 2022 and beyond for sure. Good times have been fading in dentistry for decades now, and the door is almost closed for the majority - due to increasing student loans and stagnant reimbursements from dental insurances. Medicaid hasnā€™t raised most of their fees since 1990ā€™s. Delta dental PPO hasnā€™t raised their fees since late 2000ā€™s. The maths doesnā€™t add up, all we have now is a debt market for young dentists.
Luck definitely played a role in your case. Having a lot of money to invest doesnā€™t necessarily guarantee financial success. A lot of people lost their money because they invested at the wrong time. I lost my money on Bitcoin because I invested at the wrong timeā€¦.itā€™s not a big deal because of my good ortho income.

In order to invest on something, you need money. And dentistry allows you to make a big chunk of money in a short amount of timeā€¦.enough for you to put a down payment on an investment home and for the banks to approve the loan. I wouldnā€™t feel confident to invest in real estate if I didnā€™t have a good stable ortho job to lean back on. It also easier for me to make risky decisions because I was young (in my mid 30s) because if I knew that if lost all my money on the investments and had to file bankruptcy, I would still have a lot of years to work to regain what I lost with my good ortho income. I wouldnā€™t have taken the risk (especially during the housing bubble when a lot of people lost their house and home prices declined sharply) if werenā€™t an orthodontist and didnā€™t have a stable good job.
Medicaid hasnā€™t raised most of their fees since 1990ā€™s. Delta dental PPO hasnā€™t raised their fees since late 2000ā€™s. The maths doesnā€™t add up, all we have now is a debt market for young dentists.
I have charged below the Medicaid fees since I graduated 20 years ago. And I am doing fine. That's how I survive in this competive market. I still make more at my own practices than what I make at the corp working as an associate.
 
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All the advice is great, but if it were left to sdn there'd be an incredible shortage of new grads.

Until the bubble actually breaks it will be full steam ahead. Especially for those already coming from an economically disadvantaged background.

Even still, pushing past 100k per year is insane
 
I have charged below the Medicaid fees since I graduated 20 years ago. And I am doing fine. That's how I survive in this competive market. I still make more at my own practices than what I make at the corp working as an associate.
I'm pretty sure everyone here will agree that you have done very well through mostly HARD work, low overhead and low fees. Rather than complain .... you found a niche that works well for you. You've mentioned it many times that most of your colleagues will not do what you do.

You and I have disagreed on this ortho low fee stuff. I am against the whole concept of low fees. If you look at the big picture .... low fees is not the answer for sole private practice owners which is the dream of many grads. Walmart can charge low fees because they are WALMART. Sole private practice owners are small business. We are not lending institutionsworking on small margins. We went to school for many years (8-12) to become a professional doctor offering highly technical treatments.

You like cars. I'll use a car analogy. You like expensive cars such as German stuff. Maybe Lexus. You know when you walk into a BMW, Merc, Lexus, etc. dealership that the cost of that car will not be cheap. You are buying a luxury brand with perceived higher value than say .... a Chevy. If you walked into a discount car dealership offering luxury car brands at a major discount .... wouldn't you be suspicious? If over time all German luxury brands became cheaper .... well .... they wouldn't be luxury brands.

Low fees for any procedure over time just degrades the procedure in terms of quality and "perception". Corners will ultimately be cut in order to deliver that product/service at a lower fee. Example. "What's a set of braces cost nowadays?" A commodity rather than a highly technical medical procedure.

To bring this back to the original post. I'm sure you are a good orthodontist. The issue is that the new grads with increasing ridiculous debt are not going to be able to practice like you in order to make it financially. You are an outlier. Not the norm.
 
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inDENTured servitude... they'll take a bite out of you (and more)
 
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The issue is that the new grads with increasing ridiculous debt are not going to be able to practice like you in order to make it financially. You are an outlier. Not the norm.
Debt has been normalized by society IMO. In America, we can get anything we want with credit or a loan. So indebtedness is not feared but seen as an essential to everything in life. All corporations offer debt. Every new young generation thinks no debt stops people from their goals. Also, Debt in many ways is what keeps this country going. In dentistry, there is a disconnect between schools raising their tuitions and dental insurances paying low fees. All pre-dents should need to understand and base their decisions to become a dentist are - can those two factors be pieced together? Clearly not.
 
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I'm pretty sure everyone here will agree that you have done very well through mostly HARD work, low overhead and low fees. Rather than complain .... you found a niche that works well for you. You've mentioned it many times that most of your colleagues will not do what you do.
Yes, low overhead, low fees and hard work have worked well for me even in a saturated market. I am very proud of my accomplishments. I want to share my story to the students who want to pursue dentistry because I want them to have a successful career like me. I want to let them know that working hard is not bad. I still get to do a lot of fun stuff. I have the kind of lifestyle that many people envyā€¦.and the financial reward is GREAT in the end. If working hard was so bad, I wouldn't come on here and talk about my wonderful life as a practicing orthodontist. All the photos of my cars and my houses that I posted on here were not meant to show offā€¦I use these photos to reassure the predents and dental students that choosing dentistry is the correct decision. I try to steer them away from choosing another career (even with much lower debt) that they may later regret. Iā€™ve seen so many college grads who still have to depend on their parents for financial support. Iā€™ve seen many college grads who work at jobs that are not related to their degreesā€¦.and they are struggling to pay back the student loans with the little incomes that they earn.
You and I have disagreed on this ortho low fee stuff. I am against the whole concept of low fees. If you look at the big picture .... low fees is not the answer for sole private practice owners which is the dream of many grads. Walmart can charge low fees because they are WALMART. Sole private practice owners are small business. We are not lending institutionsworking on small margins. We went to school for many years (8-12) to become a professional doctor offering highly technical treatments.
You canā€™t compare dentistry with the stuff that you buy at Walmart. Walmart stores sell everything at low price because they import cheap low quality items from China. Dentistry is a healthcare profession. All dental procedures have to be performed by a licensed dentist, and not by some non-liscensed assistants. I have the same degree and level of education as the ortho who charges twice as much as what I charge. Therefore, the quality of care that I provide for my patients should be at the same standard as what other orthodontists provide for their patients. In order to maintain the success of my business, I need the referrals from general dentists and word-of-mouth referrals from my patients. I have to take good care of all the patients, whom the general dentists refer to my office. The thing about ortho is the treatment results will not only be judged by the patients but also by others (friends, relatives, referring GPs etc.)

Many patients think dentists, who charge low fee, are honest and trustworthy. When the patients came in to see me for a 2nd opinion, I was shocked at what other offices quoted themā€¦..using the RPE when there is zero posterior x bite...charging outrageous fee for a CBCT image that was totally unnecessary. To me, phase I treatments are a big waste of money. The only phase I tx that I do is the facemask therapy on kids who have a retro maxilla.
You like cars. I'll use a car analogy. You like expensive cars such as German stuff. Maybe Lexus. You know when you walk into a BMW, Merc, Lexus, etc. dealership that the cost of that car will not be cheap. You are buying a luxury brand with perceived higher value than say .... a Chevy. If you walked into a discount car dealership offering luxury car brands at a major discount .... wouldn't you be suspicious? If over time all German luxury brands became cheaper .... well .... they wouldn't be luxury brands.
German automakers are very good at marketing their products. They are very good at ā€œfoolingā€ a lot of people. They produce more luxurious and better looking cars but their engines are definitely not as reliable as the much cheaper Japanese cars like Toyota Camry and Honda Accord.
To bring this back to the original post. I'm sure you are a good orthodontist. The issue is that the new grads with increasing ridiculous debt are not going to be able to practice like you in order to make it financially. You are an outlier. Not the norm.
Not every dentist has the right business skills that help him/her become a successful owner......Dentists like ColdFront and Taman are an outlier. I am not an outlier. Every dentist is capable of working hard like me (or harder than me)ā€¦.it is within his controlā€¦it is within his reach. If one chooses not to work hard, then one shouldnā€™t go around telling the predents that dentistry is a horrible profession. A $600-800k student loan debt is like a typical loan on a house. A dentist should be able to buy several of these $600-800k houses before he retires. If he canā€™t do this, there must be something wrong with his clinical skills and his work ethic.
 
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Not every dentist has the right business skills that help him/her become a successful owner......Dentists like ColdFront and Taman are an outlier. I am not an outlier. Every dentist is capable of working hard like me (or harder than me)ā€¦.it is within his controlā€¦it is within his reach. If one chooses not to work hard, then one shouldnā€™t go around telling the predents that dentistry is a horrible profession. A $600-800k student loan debt is like a typical loan on a house. A dentist should be able to buy several of these $600-800k houses before he retires. If he canā€™t do this, there must be something wrong with his clinical skills and his work ethic.
Say if one wants to become a general dentist, does not want to become an owner, and would like to work as an employee for their entire career, would you still recommend the profession for $600k student loan debt? Provided that the individual is willing to work hard (5-6 days a week).
 
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Say if one wants to become a general dentist, does not want to become an owner, and would like to work as an employee for their entire career, would you still recommend the profession for $600k student loan debt? Provided that the individual is willing to work hard (5-6 days a week).
Yes, if this person starts dental school at 21, 22 and will earn the DDS degree at 25, 26. No for older non-traditional students.

Yes, if this person recognizes that $600k is a serious amount of debt and therefore, he must know that he cannot start living like a doctor one day after graduation. He must use the debt snowball method to cut the debt in half in 3-4 years by living like a student or like a medical resident. When he is 30, with less debt, his lifestyle should be like a dentist who graduates with $300k debt.

A person who is willing to work 5-6 days a week has the right kind of mentality for dentistry. I wouldnā€™t recommend dentistry for someone who wants to live like a king but doesn't want to make any sacrifice....no weekends, no rural, no HPSP etc
 
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@charlestweed I think no one is saying that dentistry is a horrible profession :) The problem is the associated price tag to become one...(i.e 600k)
If one can bring home (depends on one's work ethic) $2-300k or more then this $600k debt amount is not that much. A dentist should be able to buy several $600k houses before he retires.
 
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@charlestweed I think no one is saying that dentistry is a horrible profession :) The problem is the associated price tag to become one...(i.e 600k)

Exactly. If dental school was $200-300k today, I would not start this thread or caution others from it. The crazy part is, these type of threads will be started in the years to come - with some people arguing that dentistry is still worth it at 800k, 900k or 1M+ in few years. Its almost disturbing to think that someone can convince themselves to take that level of debt and assume there is an easy payoff plan at the end of it. Majority of dentists will not be specialists. As a result, majority of dentists should not be in 4:1 debt to income ratio on just their student loans. Even worse, 8:1 or higher if you include all their other personal debt (mortgage, car, credit cards, etc). And thatā€™s just pre-tax income!
 
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Say if one wants to become a general dentist, does not want to become an owner, and would like to work as an employee for their entire career, would you still recommend the profession for $600k student loan debt? Provided that the individual is willing to work hard (5-6 days a week).

Per ADA... ā€œOver the last 2 decades, fewer dentists are working as solo practitioners.... About 2 in 3 dentists were in solo practice in 1999. It dropped to less than 1 in 2 in 2019... Among dentists under 35, less than 1 in 4 were in solo practice that year.ā€

So clearly, as of 3 years ago... the trend was less ownership and more employee dentists at a level never seen before. Itā€™s fair to say that itā€™s even less today in 2022 as more dentists retired early due to covid and corporations opened more offices at a record pace. Heartland dental alone opened and acquired 400+ offices last year.

This is not an attempt to change anyoneā€™s mind about dentistry, but the data is coming straight from HQ. lol
 
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This young nurse practicioner quadrupled her income from $74k to $275k by working 96 hours/week. She paid off her total debt of $234k in 31 months. Man, I thought I worked hard when I started my first office in 2006. I worked from 9am-6pm for the corp. And then I drove straight to my office to work there until 10pm. This young ladyā€™s work ethic just blows my mind. She is only 31 yo and she is 100% debt free. She has a bright future ahead of her. Itā€™s much easier to work crazy like that when you are still young, healthy and single. And you only need to do this for a few years until the debts are reduced in half or paid off.
 
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This young nurse practicioner quadrupled her income from $74k to $275k by working 96 hours/week. She paid off her total debt of $234k in 31 months. Man, I thought I worked hard when I started my first office in 2006. I worked from 9am-6pm for the corp. And then I drove straight to my office to work there until 10pm. This young ladyā€™s work ethic just blows my mind. She is only 31 yo and she is 100% debt free. She has a bright future ahead of her. Itā€™s much easier to work crazy like that when you are still young, healthy and single. And you only need to do this for a few years until the debts are reduced in half or paid off.

Pretty sad you have to work 96 hours per week just to pay off student loan debt within a reasonable time frame.
 
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lol at their reaction when she said she owed $235k. Imagine dental student with 600kā€¦
 
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This young nurse practicioner quadrupled her income from $74k to $275k by working 96 hours/week. She paid off her total debt of $234k in 31 months. Man, I thought I worked hard when I started my first office in 2006. I worked from 9am-6pm for the corp. And then I drove straight to my office to work there until 10pm. This young ladyā€™s work ethic just blows my mind. She is only 31 yo and she is 100% debt free. She has a bright future ahead of her. Itā€™s much easier to work crazy like that when you are still young, healthy and single. And you only need to do this for a few years until the debts are reduced in half or paid off.

How in the world did you have your office open until 10 pm at night? I've never heard of people getting dental care that late
 
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Pretty sad you have to work 96 hours per week just to pay off student loan debt within a reasonable time frame.
Nothing wrong with good ole fashioned hard work.
 
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I worked hard when I started my first office in 2006. I worked from 9am-6pm for the corp. And then I drove straight to my office to work there until 10pm.
You worked 11 hour days for 5-6 days? Thatā€™s 55-66 hours a week.

Seriously Charles, how many young dentists would do that - even if you suggested those hours to them? Remember, the definition of full time job is 33-40 hours a week. Your worked almost 2x of that, and make it seem doable.
 
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You worked 11 hour days for 5-6 days? Thatā€™s 55-66 hours a week.
That's nothing.
Rumour is that when Charles was young. He walked to school 3 miles in the snow uphill both ways. At school .... he could study, eat lunch, rub his belly and tap his head all AT THE SAME TIME. Speaking of school. Charles worked so hard that he skipped pre-school, grade school, high school and went straight into college. All before he was 16. At work ... he could run and operate multiple offices all ..... without a single computer. 11 hour work days were the norm for many years. Charles is 50 now and is finally slowing down. He works 10 1/2 hours a day now. He complains that with all his extra time (1/2 hour) he might need to start another practice. Not only can he juggle 11 hour work days. Multiple practices and a Corp side gig .... he also has time to post on SDN.

In all seriousness. Thank you Charles. You're an inspiration to what hard work can accomplish. :thumbup:
 
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That's nothing.
Rumour is that when Charles was young. He walked to school 3 miles in the snow uphill both ways. At school .... he could study, eat lunch, rub his belly and tap his head all AT THE SAME TIME. Speaking of school. Charles worked so hard that he skipped pre-school, grade school, high school and went straight into college. All before he was 16. At work ... he could run and operate multiple offices all ..... without a single computer. 11 hour work days were the norm for many years. Charles is 50 now and is finally slowing down. He works 10 1/2 hours a day now. He complains that with all his extra time (1/2 hour) he might need to start another practice. Not only can he juggle 11 hour work days. Multiple practices and a Corp side gig .... he also has time to post on SDN.

In all seriousness. Thank you Charles. You're an inspiration to what hard work can accomplish. :thumbup:
Charles is really ramping it down with those 10.5 hour days xD
 
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You worked 11 hour days for 5-6 days? Thatā€™s 55-66 hours a week.
Itā€™s 12 hours a day (1 hour lunch). No, I only worked like that 2 days a week. There werenā€™t enough patients to work more days because it was a brand new office that I set up from scratch. I would work more days if there were more patients. My wife also came to help me both at front and backā€¦collecting the payments from patients, sterilizing instruments, cleaning the chairs etc. My wife brought our 18-month old daughter to the office. Our daughter could have stayed home with the live-in nanny but we wanted to see her face while we worked. I also asked one ortho RDA, who worked with me at the corp, to follow me to my office and I paid him $60 for assisting me. After work, we had a nice dinner at a Chinese restaurant that stayed opened until 12am. I had only worked this late for about 2 years.

I wasnā€™t the only ortho who worked like this. My classmate (the guy whom I mentioned on post #80 of this threadā€¦.the guy who convinced me to study for the GRE and applied for ortho with him) opened his ortho office 3 years before me and he also worked like this. I followed what he did because I wanted to have a successful practice like his.

Itā€™s a different mentality when you work for yourself. When you work for the corp, you just want to go home ASAP. But when you have a new office that you start from scratch, you actually want your office to have as many patients as possible to fill all your chairs. I was very happy when I was busy running around taking care of my patientsā€¦.it was little bit chaotic but it was fun. Itā€™d be more depressing if I walked into an empty office that had no patient in it.
Seriously Charles, how many young dentists would do that - even if you suggested those hours to them? Remember, the definition of full time job is 33-40 hours a week. Your worked almost 2x of that, and make it seem doable.
I donā€™t know. All of us have choices to make for our lives.

Nurses and doctors normally work 10 + hours a day and they donā€™t complain. I canā€™t believe that ā€œhard workā€ is frowned upon by so many on this dental forum.
 
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That's nothing.
Rumour is that when Charles was young. He walked to school 3 miles in the snow uphill both ways. At school .... he could study, eat lunch, rub his belly and tap his head all AT THE SAME TIME. Speaking of school. Charles worked so hard that he skipped pre-school, grade school, high school and went straight into college. All before he was 16. At work ... he could run and operate multiple offices all ..... without a single computer. 11 hour work days were the norm for many years. Charles is 50 now and is finally slowing down. He works 10 1/2 hours a day now. He complains that with all his extra time (1/2 hour) he might need to start another practice. Not only can he juggle 11 hour work days. Multiple practices and a Corp side gig .... he also has time to post on SDN.

In all seriousness. Thank you Charles. You're an inspiration to what hard work can accomplish. :thumbup:

Incredible. Iā€™m fond of Charlesā€™s super hero level attitude towards work. I think if he had charged more for his ortho services, he would be working less hours per week. Iā€™m still on the camp of recommending work smarter than harder. No one should work extremely hard to making more money.
 
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