USC First YR Cost of Attendance $162k 2022-2023

[2TH MVR]

This seems like it’s an even bigger problem in dentistry (despite all the new med schools opening up too) because there is no residency slot limits on the number of licensed practitioners. Why are the dentists who run things undercutting themselves?

Not sure dentists as a collective group have the power to go against new private dental schools, big insurance companies, deep pocketed hedge funds that buy up Corporate and private dental offices. Every time a dentist sells their private practice to a Corp DSO .... Corp dentistry becomes stronger. Money talks.

When Corp Dentistry 1st came out .... some states said you had to be an OWNER DENTIST to own a Corp entity/office (s) and other states said NON OWNER DENTISTS could own and operate these Corps. It's obvious that even in the OWNER DENTIST states .... there were loop holes that existed that allowed a non-dentist making all the decisions. Putting a non-dentist owner in charge mostly means that the dentists are essentially employees with no say in the matter. Money Talks.

When Invisalign 1st came out. In Phoenix ... I was in the very 1st meeting with the Invisalign group. I was one of the original certified orthodontists. Corp Invisalign talked about how they wanted to limit their product (aligners) to ONLY ortho specialists. They wanted outcomes that only specialist could predictably obtain. We (orthos) bought into it. Fully endorsed it. The AAO endorsed it. Ortho academics endorsed it. Invisalign was making huge donations to research in the ortho residencies. Lets be real. Invisalign is a company to make money. They knew that eventually they would offer their product to EVERYONE regardless of training. Money Talks.

Delta Dental Corp was originally formed by the dentists .... for the dentists. A FFS indemnity. In Phoenix I remember talking to some of the Delta dental board members. Over time ... one by one ... the original dentists who wanted only the FFS insurance benefits were being ousted in favor of PPO minded dentists/board members. Money Talks.

In the end. It's always about the money.

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[voxveritatisetlucis]

Not sure dentists as a collective group have the power to go against new private dental schools, big insurance companies, deep pocketed hedge funds that buy up Corporate and private dental offices. Money talks.

Hypothetically, if all practicing dentists refused to host students for rotations or hire associates from the new private schools, it seems likely that these schools would be shutdown.

 

[2TH MVR]

Hypothetically, if all practicing dentists refused to host students for rotations or hire associates from the new private schools, it seems likely that these schools would be shutdown.

You're unrealistic. Corp dentistry in time or already is .... will be the largest employer of new dentists. They don't care where the fresh supply of dentists come from.

 

[Cold Front]

Corp dentistry in time or already is .... will be the largest employer of new dentists. They don't care where the fresh supply of dentists come from.

They already are. Private office share of dentist employer market is shrinking every year, while DSO’s grow thousands of offices every year. Heartland alone added close to 500 offices last year. They also promised to grow more this year.

 

[D1Bound]

Since this thread started, 2 new dental schools has been announced.

What should a new soon to be dentist do to standout with all these new grads that are going to be pumped out?

 

[Cold Front]

What should a new soon to be dentist do to standout with all these new grads that are going to be pumped out?

Well, when I graduated from DS a hair over a decade ago, there were about 5,000 new doctors entering the workforce. Today, it’s inching towards 7,000. That’s about 40% jump in new dentists, almost all from the dozen new dental schools that opened since.

What can you do to standout? Stay off the big and medium cities.

 

[charlestweed]

What should a new soon to be dentist do to standout with all these new grads that are going to be pumped out?

WORK HARD. Be willing to accept the job that makes you work like a dog at the beginning since you have zero experience and have nothing to show to the owner. You’ll learn a lot more when you have to treat high patient volume every day. Busy schedule helps you develop more effective techniques so you can keep up with the patient flow and won’t stay behind. You’ll learn to work faster and more efficiently than a colleague who is afraid to face the challenges. The more difficult cases that you are willing to treat (instead of referring them to the specialists) the more experience you will gain. Once you become a good and fast dentist, you can demand a higher salary. The owner dentist will do anything to keep you from leaving. And when you save enough to set up your own office, you will be ready.

I have worked for the corp for 20 years. I’ve met a lot of new grad associate dentists. I learn about these dentists from the assistants who work with them. Some dentists are very slow and don’t want to do anything (because they feel insecured about their skills and are afraid). And there are some who want to challenge themselves to do a wide variety of procedures including molar endo, placing implants, laser surgeries, invisalign etc. The dentists in latter group tend to happier with their jobs because they get paid very well, the manager want to assign more productive cases to them (because they are fast) and the assistants love them.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I was just looking at my portfolio and realized that my dividend yield in the aggregate is about 5%. 600,000 that would literally be 30,000 to reinvest rather than paying 50,000 in interest. So really it’s like an 80k swing per year. Realistically, what would need to be earned to justify this? 350-400k?

 

[Cold Front]

I was just looking at my portfolio and realized that my dividend yield in the aggregate is about 5%. 600,000 that would literally be 30,000 to reinvest rather than paying 50,000 in interest. So really it’s like an 80k swing per year. Realistically, what would need to be earned to justify this? 350-400k?

Have you seen the stock market the past 7-8 weeks? Almost everyone’s portfolio is in the red. It’s hard to predict and time markets, but it’s very easy to predict that a dental student will graduate with very high student loans. Don’t take a chance on an already very bad situation in uncertain times.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Have you seen the stock market the past 7-8 weeks? Almost everyone’s portfolio is in the red.

Remember when I said this ship is going down?

Big Hoss

 

[LFA20]

Remember when I said this ship is going down?

View attachment 355009

Big Hoss

I pulled out just in time. Thank you for your advice sir.

 

[allDAT]

Why even bother applying here? This is insanely expensive, far beyond what is repayable by 95% of dentists.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Like medicine, many dental students have trust funds

 

[702]

Like medicine, many dental students have trust funds

How can I pick my parents

 

[Cold Front]

Like medicine, many dental students have trust funds

Health care vultures (private equities) helped create an oversupply of ER physicians. Now they want to use the surplus to cut wages and limit care. It’s crazy!

 

[Cold Front]

Why even bother applying here? This is insanely expensive, far beyond what is repayable by 95% of dentists.

There is a thread on Dental Town, where a dentist is offering $80 an hour to recruit a full time dental hygienist, and he hasn’t found one for months. That’s $166k+ a year offer for 40 hours a week BEFORE benefits. The average dentist makes $250k a year with NO benefits, even less for new grads who are in debt with 500-600k in student loans. Something really weird is happening in the dental workforce.

 

[Blueshirts]

There is a thread on Dental Town, where a dentist is offering $80 an hour to recruit a full time dental hygienist, and he hasn’t found one for months. That’s $166k+ a year offer for 40 hours a week BEFORE benefits. The average dentist makes $250k a year with NO benefits, even less for new grads who are in debt with 500-600k in student loans. Something really weird is happening in the dental workforce.

Should hygiene schools charge 80k a year so that new hygienists are forced to work hard in order to pay back loans? Jk..

 

[8_man]

There is a thread on Dental Town, where a dentist is offering $80 an hour to recruit a full time dental hygienist, and he hasn’t found one for months. That’s $166k+ a year offer for 40 hours a week BEFORE benefits. The average dentist makes $250k a year with NO benefits, even less for new grads who are in debt with 500-600k in student loans. Something really weird is happening in the dental workforce.

At that price point I'd rather just do my own prophies lol

 

[2TH MVR]

At that price point I'd rather just do my own prophies lol

At the DSO I'm employed at. There is a huge shortage of hygienists. The dentists are being asked to do the prophies. They are not happy.
At one office .... they hired a new hygienist. I swear she is 80 yrs old lol. Not much for conversation.

 

[Teeth and Titanite]

Like medicine, many dental students have trust funds

Usually rich people still like to be smart with their money, often they are even more careful than the average person. Attending a school this expensive is an objectively dumb decision.

 

[Cold Front]

At the DSO I'm employed at. There is a huge shortage of hygienists. The dentists are being asked to do the prophies. They are not happy.
At one office .... they hired a new hygienist. I swear she is 80 yrs old lol. Not much for conversation.

Wow. The new normal. The lady who serves me my Starbucks drive thru coffee on my way to work is about 80 years old, and the line to get to her is very long. Everyone at my neck of the woods goes to work late because of her. lol

 

[charlestweed]

At the DSO I'm employed at. There is a huge shortage of hygienists. The dentists are being asked to do the prophies. They are not happy.
At one office .... they hired a new hygienist. I swear she is 80 yrs old lol. Not much for conversation.

Most of the dentists I know do their own prophies. Here in CA, we don’t have a shortage of hygienists. But instead, we have a huge shortage of patients. We don’t have enough patients to fill our appointment books. Therefore, we have to do our own prophies to keep ourselves busy. I have to work for a DSO because my offices don’t have enough patients. I can only afford to hire P/T assistants because I don’t have enough patients.

 

[2TH MVR]

Most of the dentists I know do their own prophies. Here in CA, we don’t have a shortage of hygienists. But instead, we have a huge shortage of patients. We don’t have enough patients to fill our appointment books. Therefore, we have to do our own prophies to keep ourselves busy. I have to work for a DSO because my offices don’t have enough patients. I can only afford to hire P/T assistants because I don’t have enough patients.

Or do you have too many dentists private and Corp offices. Not enough patients to go around.
Also .... I believe your state (CA) has a net loss of new residents over the last decade. Cali people are moving to AZ and Texas among other states.
Throw in some serious WATER issues ....

 

[charlestweed]

Or do you have too many dentists private and Corp offices. Not enough patients to go around.
Also .... I believe your state (CA) has a net loss of new residents over the last decade. Cali people are moving to AZ and Texas among other states.
Throw in some serious WATER issues ....

Exactly….too many dentists…too many corp offices. Dentistry in CA is the preview of what dentistry will be like in the future for other states. But where there’s a will, there’s a way. Unlike pharmacy, optometry, and other health professions, dentistry has no income limit. The only thing that limits a dentist from doing well is the dentist himself. It may be disappointed to have a low salary at the beginning because of the lack of skills. Every new grad dentist is slow at the beginning. With time, one will gain the experience and increase the clinical speed (as the result of one’s hard work), and so will his/her income.

 

[DustFreeEraser]

Exactly….too many dentists…too many corp offices. Dentistry in CA is the preview of what dentistry will be like in the future for other states. But where there’s a will, there’s a way. Unlike pharmacy, optometry, and other health professions, dentistry has no income limit. The only thing that limits a dentist from doing well is the dentist himself. It may be disappointed to have a low salary at the beginning because of the lack of skills. Every new grad dentist is slow at the beginning. With time, one will gain the experience and increase the clinical speed (as the result of one’s hard work), and so will his/her income.

Give it time, corp will find a way to limit income.

 

[charlestweed]

Give it time, corp will find a way to limit income.

It's happening now. You are stuck with the same salary for the rest of your life if you continue to work for the corp....then you will be no different than a pharmacist who works at a CVS or Walgreen.

In dentistry, what limits you is you yourself. What limits you is the number of patients you that you treat in the office. More patients = more $$$.To make more in a saturated area, you have to go to where the patients live, instead of waiting for the patients to come to you. If your practice doesn't have enough patients, you travel to work part time for someone else (ie corp office or another private office) or open more offices. If you're an associate and your boss doesn't provide you enough patients, you increase the patient volume by working for multiple bosses at multiple offices. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

[Cold Front]

I don’t mean to take anything away from young generations; millennials, Gen Z or even Gen Y. But in general, every younger generation comes with a shrinking workforce due to lower birth rates in our society. With less workforce comes less hard working people. Less hard working people comes with less business oriented people. In dentistry, working very hard means working longer hours and seeing more patients than older generation cohort of dentists did due to higher cost in dental school, opening or buying a dental office, and running a dental office. When the economic playing field gets harder, you can play and work as hard as you can, but the economic dynamics you are working in bar is
raised and it keeps getting higher and higher, that’s the ultimate factor in financial outcomes. A good example is home affordability. The average person in this country needs about 10 years of their income to afford a home. It use to be less than 5 years for baby boomers. Working harder is also relative to the economic times you live in, and obviously where you live in. Working very hard as a dentist in San Diego, CA could mean the same income as a part time dentist in rural Maine. Corporate dentistry muscle can easily adjust to changing economic times better than solo dentists. After all, corporations didn’t go to expensive dental school, and they easily have access to capital to grow and control the profession.

 

[charlestweed]

Dentistry has become a saturated field due to the openings of new dental schools. In this competitive market, if you don’t work hard, you will lose the patients to the dentists who work harder than you. By offering the patients more choices (ie accepting a wide variety of insurance plans, offering weekend and late office hours etc), the hard working dentists are able to attract a lot of patients away from the dentists who choose to work less. That’s how corp offices have taken away a lot of patients from the private offices. Corps employ hard working dentists…..dentists who are ok with treating high patient volume for less money (ie treating medicaid patients)….dentists who are ok with working late and on the weekends.

It’s not just dentistry that is facing these oversaturation and low wage problems. It’s getting harder to make a good living these days. $100k used to be considered a great income….it’s not anymore today. According to this article (Why Upper-Middle Earners Are Living Paycheck to Paycheck), a lot of people, who earn 6-figure incomes, are living paycheck to paycheck. Everything has gone up so much in price. I guess paying $6+ for a gallon of gasoline is the new normal. I feel really bad for the younger generation.

 

[Cold Front]

Dentistry has become a saturated field due to the openings of new dental schools. In this competitive market, if you don’t work hard, you will lose the patients to the dentists who work harder than you. By offering the patients more choices (ie accepting a wide variety of insurance plans, offering weekend and late office hours etc), the hard working dentists are able to attract a lot of patients away from the dentists who choose to work less. That’s how corp offices have taken away a lot of patients from the private offices. Corps employ hard working dentists…..dentists who are ok with treating high patient volume for less money (ie treating medicaid patients)….dentists who are ok with working late and on the weekends.

It’s not just dentistry that is facing these oversaturation and low wage problems. It’s getting harder to make a good living these days. $100k used to be considered a great income….it’s not anymore today. According to this article (Why Upper-Middle Earners Are Living Paycheck to Paycheck), a lot of people, who earn 6-figure incomes, are living paycheck to paycheck. Everything has gone up so much in price. I guess paying $6+ for a gallon of gasoline is the new normal. I feel really bad for the younger generation.

Big Disclaimer: Very hard work often leads to a burnout. Your mileage may vary.

 

[D1Bound]

Big Disclaimer: Very hard work often leads to a burnout. Your mileage may vary.

Honest question. I have never heard the word burnout used by my Grandfather or in literature of the early 20th century. I suppose those people were just surviving and didn't have a choice to be "burned out." Why is burn out such a big deal nowadays?

 

[Teeth and Titanite]

Honest question. I have never heard the word burnout used by my Grandfather or in literature of the early 20th century. I suppose those people were just surviving and didn't have a choice to be "burned out." Why is burn out such a big deal nowadays?

The suffering was very much present, but like you said they didn't have a choice. If you don't talk about the problem, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. Now people are talking about these issues and attitudes are changing about what we should be willing to tolerate.

 

[Cold Front]

The suffering was very much present, but like you said they didn't have a choice. If you don't talk about the problem, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. Now people are talking about these issues and attitudes are changing about what we should be willing to tolerate.

It’s also based on culture. In developing countries, people work very hard by default to survive. In developed countries, society has identified multiple conditions relating to working very hard. Hence why we have the 9-5 hours, labor laws, OSHA, etc. I’m sure immigrants that come to this country from developing nations are some of the hardest working people in this country, but even they will eventually feel a burn out.

 

[2TH MVR]

"Burn out". Everyone will experience some form of burn out eventually. Unfortunately working 6 days a week could lead to early burn out. Especially if you are doing this because you borrowed too much money for DS and are FORCED to work 6 days/week.

I was fortunate during my early practice years. I worked a typical Mon -Thurs schedule. 3 days off. Time to recharge. Always felt energized when I went back to work.

Another thing. I do not understand why so many dentists do not take a lunch. Lunch is another way to avoid burn out. It is not so much the food, but to GET AWAY FROM THE OFFICE for an hour. That hour away from the office was sacred to me. You know what ruined this hour? Finding out I had a lunch scheduled with a supply rep or dentist. There were many times I had my receptionist cancel these lunch meetings so I could relax and enjoy my little hour away. I would get lunch. And then do something fun during that time. Go look at new golf clubs. Home Depot. Anything that wasn't dentistry related.

Another thing. I had very few dentist friends (by choice). Lets be real. Most dentists are not the most interesting people to talk to. Well .... except you guys on this SDN forum . Mostly friends with other professions. When I'm away from the office .... I DO NOT WANT TO DISCUSS DENTISTRY. Leave it at work.

Another thing. Some of you dentists staying late after work or coming into the office on your day off ...... to finish writing up charts, or pay bills. Are you CRAZY? Get away from the office. Do your work during the day.

Another thing. Eat healthy. Exercise.

 

[charlestweed]

Big Disclaimer: Very hard work often leads to a burnout. Your mileage may vary.

That’s why it’s better to work hard earlier in your life so you won’t have to worry about the job burnout when you are older. Your young 26-30 yo body can tolerate the heavy workload much better your 40+ yo body.

Different dentists have different level of work ethic. That’s why you see a wide range of incomes among dentists. Some dentists have a 7 figure income even in a saturated market like CA. And there are some dentists who have the income in low $100k. I haven’t yet met a successful dentist who doesn’t work hard. Some of the successful ones that I know don't work very hard now (because they don’t have any more debt) but they used to work extremely hard in the past when they first started their office.

Loans (student, home, car, business etc) are the modern day slavery. You lose all your freedom because of them. You have to drag yourself out of bed every morning and show up for work on time. You have work hard to please your patients so you can maintain the success of your business…..so you won’t get sued. You have to write checks to pay bills almost on the daily basis. That’s not how I want to live my life. It's very stressful to live like this. I’d much rather deal with the stress of working hard (so I can get rid of the debt fast) than living like a slave by allowing the banks to control my life. When I am debt-free, I can do whatever I want. Nothing is more satisfying than writing the last check to pay off the loan.

 

[charlestweed]

Another thing. I do not understand why so many dentists do not take a lunch. Lunch is another way to avoid burn out. It is not so much the food, but to GET AWAY FROM THE OFFICE for an hour. That hour away from the office was sacred to me. You know what ruined this hour? Finding out I had a lunch scheduled with a supply rep or dentist. There were many times I had my receptionist cancel these lunch meetings so I could relax and enjoy my little hour away. I would get lunch. And then do something fun during that time. Go look at new golf clubs. Home Depot. Anything that wasn't dentistry related.

We, orthodontists, are spoiled. The reason we can enjoy at least an hour (usually more…1h 15-30 minutes for me) lunch is most of our procedures are very short (5-10 minutes) and predictable….the longest one might be 30 minutes for a full mouth bonding or debonding procedure. Many general dentists can’t take lunch because the procedures that they perform are highly unpredictable. A simple 5 minute occlusal filling can turn into a 1.5-2 hour RCT/post buildup/crown prep procedure. There are emergency walk-in patients that may also affect the patient flow. We, orthos, don’t have to deal with any of these.

When I work at my own offices, I schedule all my patients from 1:30pm to 5pm. I have the whole morning for myself.

When I work at the corp, I use the phone app to order my lunch at the local Subway, El Pollo Loco, Panda Express etc. And I eat my lunch while the assistants perform work on the patients. When the official lunch time arrives (1pm but I usually leave the office around 12:30-12:45), I have the whole 1- hour for myself without having to worry about what to buy for lunch. I usually take a 20-30 minute nap…watch Asian dramas on youtube…and read SDN posts etc….in my car.

I am having lunch right now…it’s only 11:40am. And the assistants are working on my 3 patients right now. Life is beautiful.

 

[Cold Front]

If we step back and look which dentists will be working “very hard” from 2022.

Older dentists (over age 55): Most of them are men. They had no debt or student loans compared to today’s new grads. Many of them retired during the pandemic. Many are selling their practices soon. Most of them are working part time. No hard work here.

Middle age group dentists (age 40-55): These guys worked hard already and paid most or all of their debt. They have good work life balance. Most are working less than 40 hours. Most are married, paid off their students loans and own a home. No hard work here either.

Young dentists (under 40): They are mostly females. Most work for corporations. Most have insane debt. They are already boxed in financially since the pandemic induced high inflation (less purchasing power) and very high interest rates in buying a home or a practice. Very hard work won’t be enough for most of these young dentists. Many need luck and prayers, specially if they are about to enter or graduate from DS.

Speaking of which, I received an email form my Colgate supplier today. They are raising their prices on toothbrushes and toothpaste for dental offices by 20%. Which dentist will work 20% harder to pay their hygiene supplies on top of raising their hygienist wages while dental insurance reimbursement for hygiene procedures are stagnant?

 

[charlestweed]

Older dentists (over age 55): Most of them are men. They had no debt or student loans compared to today’s new grads. Many of them retired during the pandemic. Many are selling their practices soon. Most of them are working part time. No hard work here.

It’s true that most of them had very little debt (compared to today's grads) and things were also much cheaper than they are today. But for them to retire at 55, they still had to work very hard, especially during the first 5-10 years of running their own practices. They sell their practices now because they are losing patients. They are losing patients because they have less motivation (all debts were paid off and they saved enough for their retirement) to work hard like they used to in the past. They have to sell their practices now before their practices become worthless.

Middle age group dentists (age 40-55): These guys worked hard already and paid most or all of their debt. They have good work life balance. Most are working less than 40 hours. Most are married, paid off their students loans and own a home. No hard work here either.

It’s also true that most dentists, who are in this age range, paid off all their loans. After 14-29 years of practicing dentistry (assuming that they earned their DDS degree at 26), they should make enough to pay off all their debts. If they still have debts at this age, there must be something wrong with their work ethic or their spending habit.

Young dentists (under 40): They are mostly females. Most work for corporations. Most have insane debt. They are already boxed in financially since the pandemic induced high inflation (less purchasing power) and very high interest rates in buying a home or a practice.

These dentists still have debts because they haven’t worked long enough. But 10 years from now, when when they reach the ages of the dentists in the above 2 groups, they will pay off all their debts. It may take them 4-5 years longer (may be in their 60s instead of mid 50s like the above older groups) due to higher student loan debts and less purchasing power. But they will eventually get there if they work hard. Being able to retire comfortably at 60-65 is not bad at all.

Very hard work won’t be enough for most of these young dentists. Many need luck and prayers, specially if they are about to enter or graduate from DS.

Working very hard may not be enough for these dentists but it’s still way better than being lazy. I don't have any issue with dentists who work 3-4 days/wk but they make the same (or more than) as the dentists who work 6 days/wk. That's their reward for being good and fast.....for making the sacrifice to live in a boring rural area.

Speaking of which, I received an email form my Colgate supplier today. They are raising their prices on toothbrushes and toothpaste for dental offices by 20%. Which dentist will work 20% harder to pay their hygiene supplies on top of raising their hygienist wages while dental insurance reimbursement for hygiene procedures are stagnant?

It’s still a good source of passive income. It’s still better than having to sit down and do your own cleaning. Many of my colleagues, who are practicing in CA, don’t have such luxury. Most of them can’t afford to hire hygienists (due to lack of patients) and have to do all the cleanings themselves.

 

[charlestweed]

In dentistry, if you don’t work hard, you will fail period. Luck only plays a minor role in your overal success. If you don’t spend the time to show your patients that you care for them…that you are a trustworthy dentist, they’ll leave you. Nobody wants to return to the same office that has an owner dentist who barely works ....who takes vacations all the time….who never return their phone calls. You can only fool them once but you can’t fool them twice. Doctor-patient relationship is very important in dentistry. It takes a long time and requires a lot of hard work to build the reputation. Word of mouth referral is the best way to gain new patients.

 

[DrJeff]

It’s true that most of them had very little debt (compared to today's grads) and things were also much cheaper than they are today. But for them to retire at 55, they still had to work very hard, especially during the first 5-10 years of opening their practices. They sell their practices now because they are losing patients. They are losing patients because they have less motivation (all debts were paid off and they saved enough for their retirement) to work hard like they used to in the past. They have to sell their practices now before their practices become worthless.


It’s also true that most dentists, who are in this age range, paid off all their loans. After 14-29 years of practicing dentistry (assuming that they earned their DDS degree at 26), they should be make enough to pay off all their debts. If they still have debts at this age, there must be something wrong with their work ethic or their spending habit.

These dentists still have debts because they haven’t worked long enough. But 10 years from now, when when they reach the ages of the dentists in the above 2 groups, they will pay off all their debts. It may take them 4-5 years longer (may be in their 60s instead of mid 50s like the above older groups) due to higher student loan debts and less purchasing power. But they will eventually get there if they work hard. Being able to retire comfortably at 60-65 is not bad at all.

Working very hard may not be enough for these dentists but it’s still way better than being lazy. I don't have any issue with dentists who work 3-4 days/wk but they make the same (or more than) as the dentists who work 6 days/wk. That's their reward for being good and fast.....for making the sacrifice to live in a boring rural area.

It’s still a good source of passive income. It’s still better than having to sit down and do your own cleaning. Many of my colleagues, who are practicing in CA, don’t have such luxury. Most of them can’t afford to hire hygienists (due to lack of patients) and have to do all the cleanings themselves.

I have to take some offense at the notion that living in a "boring rural area" as you put it is a sacrifice.

As someone who has lived and practiced in a "boring rural area" as you put it, I frankly find it quite enjoyable, so have some land, and being able to go out in my back yard at night and listen to the crickets chirping and see the stars without having to worry about urban light pollution. It just helps me unwind and enjoy the outdoors a bit. It's nice also living in a smaller town where you know the families of your kids school cohorts, as well as not having to worry about things like "did I lock my car/front door last night?" or some of the other things that tend to be more prevalant in more urban areas.

Rural living certainly lisn't for everyone. Although as the pandemic has shown with migration of folks out of urban areas in some cases, it's actually for a few more than they may have thought a couple of years ago, and some of the general entertainment options (a plethora of restaurants, shopping options, cultural venues, etc) that they thought they couldn't live in an area without, well actually living in an area like that showed them that not only could they live there, but they can actually enjoy living there.

Don't knock it until you've tried it as the saying goes

 

[2TH MVR]

In dentistry, if you don’t work hard, you will fail period. Luck only plays a minor role in your overal success. If you don’t spend the time to show your patients that you care for them…that you are a trustworthy dentist, they’ll leave you. Nobody wants to return to the same office that has an owner dentist who barely works ....who takes vacations all the time….who never return their phone calls. You can only fool them once but you can’t fool them twice. Doctor-patient relationship is very important in dentistry. It takes a long time and requires a lot of hard work to build the reputation. Word of mouth referral is the best way to gain new patients.

Word of mouth referrals, but I'm sure the low fees also play into this. Right?

 

[DrJeff]

Word of mouth referrals, but I'm sure the low fees also play into this. Right?

Kind of like when you see folks in ones community asking if they know of a good "cheap" mechanic or plumber, etc!

For so many in society, across a myriad of things, even if one lists off other attributes first, the cost factor is often the biggest priority in how thye view the "quality" of something/someone

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

It is quite interesting that people usually ask upfront prices for the dentist even though dental insurance usually covers the bill?

 

[charlestweed]

Word of mouth referrals, but I'm sure the low fees also play into this. Right?

Absolutely. Who doesn't want quality treatment at reasonable price?

 

[D1Bound]

I have to take some offense at the notion that living in a "boring rural area" as you put it is a sacrifice.

As someone who has lived and practiced in a "boring rural area" as you put it, I frankly find it quite enjoyable, so have some land, and being able to go out in my back yard at night and listen to the crickets chirping and see the stars without having to worry about urban light pollution. It just helps me unwind and enjoy the outdoors a bit. It's nice also living in a smaller town where you know the families of your kids school cohorts, as well as not having to worry about things like "did I lock my car/front door last night?" or some of the other things that tend to be more prevalant in more urban areas.

Rural living certainly lisn't for everyone. Although as the pandemic has shown with migration of folks out of urban areas in some cases, it's actually for a few more than they may have thought a couple of years ago, and some of the general entertainment options (a plethora of restaurants, shopping options, cultural venues, etc) that they thought they couldn't live in an area without, well actually living in an area like that showed them that not only could they live there, but they can actually enjoy living there.

Don't knock it until you've tried it as the saying goes

I don't understand why someone wouldn't want to live more rural. I want people to get the heck away from me

 

[charlestweed]

I have to take some offense at the notion that living in a "boring rural area" as you put it is a sacrifice.

As someone who has lived and practiced in a "boring rural area" as you put it, I frankly find it quite enjoyable, so have some land, and being able to go out in my back yard at night and listen to the crickets chirping and see the stars without having to worry about urban light pollution. It just helps me unwind and enjoy the outdoors a bit. It's nice also living in a smaller town where you know the families of your kids school cohorts, as well as not having to worry about things like "did I lock my car/front door last night?" or some of the other things that tend to be more prevalant in more urban areas.

Rural living certainly lisn't for everyone. Although as the pandemic has shown with migration of folks out of urban areas in some cases, it's actually for a few more than they may have thought a couple of years ago, and some of the general entertainment options (a plethora of restaurants, shopping options, cultural venues, etc) that they thought they couldn't live in an area without, well actually living in an area like that showed them that not only could they live there, but they can actually enjoy living there.

Don't knock it until you've tried it as the saying goes

It’s a sacrifice, if you have to leave your parents, siblings, and friends, whom you are very attached to, and move to a new place where things are totally different from where you grew up in. Things are more spread out in rural areas; therefore, it may be harder to meet people and make new friends. It may take longer to drive to a place (restaurant, theme park, beach etc) where your whole family can enjoy. This might be a huge shock for someone who grew up in a big city all his/her life. That’s what I meant when I said boring.

My brother, who is a GI doc, couldn’t last more than 2 years in Colorado Spring. He moved his family there for a better job opportunity. He is now back in CA.

My nephew, who is in his 3rd year of the 8 year BS/MD program in Virginia, told his mom (my younger sister) how excited he was to be back home in CA for his 2 month summer break. He's guaranteed a spot for med school but he still wants to apply to medical schools in CA.

My niece is 3rd year med student in a rural town in Pensylvannia. She goal is to get a residency (internal medicine) spot in CA because she wants to move back home. UCI medical center is her top choice because it's within the driving distance from her parents' house....it's not a great program but it's not easy to get in because a lot of med students apply here. CA medical residency programs are harder to get in because everyone wants to live here.

 

[Cold Front]

I don't understand why someone wouldn't want to live more rural. I want people to get the heck away from me

I worked in rural area straight after DS. Some of the nicest people I met in this country are from rural areas. I think there is a perception that people in rural areas are folks who are not with the times and time moves very slow there. I think everything else being equal, I would prefer to have my offices in rural areas. But my friends and family are from urban area, and they would never visit me in a rural area. So I guess most dentists are in my shoes and would not work in rural area at any price. You can’t put a price for living close to home. As they say - home is where the heart is.

 

[D1Bound]

Should dental students start considering van life the way tuition is going nowadays? Seems viable to me

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Should dental students start considering van life the way tuition is going nowadays? Seems viable to me

Most med schools provide 24/7 access to the library/common areas. Wonder if same for dental schools

 

[D1Bound]

Most med schools provide 24/7 access to the library/common areas. Wonder if same for dental schools

Combine that with a gym membership, a large mini van or van, get a camp stove and maybe some solar panels to power a fridge inside the van, you're good to go. Adapting to the climate I think would be the hardest part if it's harsh conditions at night for sleeping.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

at 130k before living expenses, honestly, one should just max out their loans and do PSLF or something.

Of course I don’t recommend taking out 130k in the first place, but at that point it becomes irrelevant