USC First YR Cost of Attendance $162k 2022-2023

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Incredible. I’m fond of Charles’s super hero level attitude towards work. I think if he had charged more for his ortho services, he would be working less hours per week. I’m still on the camp of recommending work smarter than harder. No one should work extremely hard to making more money.
I too am on a camp of working smart, instead of working hard. Who doesn’t want to make more and work less? I wish I could charge higher fee and work less like many of my colleagues. But I am not smart (business-wise) enough to do that, especially in CA where there are ortho and corp offices in every street corner. Therefore, I have to work hard (and keep the overhead low) to make up for my poor business skills. I didn’t want to open my own office right after graduation because I didn’t have enough confidence in myself. It took 4 years before I finally had enough courage to start my first office.

If I charged high fee and didn’t accept low pay insurance plans, my practice would have zero start. I’d rather have multiple starts per day at low fees than sitting around doing nothing and still have to pay rents and staff salaries. Earning some money is better than sitting around earning nothing. It's still more than what the corp office pays me.

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Incredible. I’m fond of Charles’s super hero level attitude towards work. I think if he had charged more for his ortho services, he would be working less hours per week. I’m still on the camp of recommending work smarter than harder. No one should work extremely hard to making more money.
That's very common mentality among asian people(or immigrants really).

The millenials/gen Z however... lol (asians included)
 
You worked 11 hour days for 5-6 days? That’s 55-66 hours a week.

Seriously Charles, how many young dentists would do that - even if you suggested those hours to them? Remember, the definition of full time job is 33-40 hours a week. Your worked almost 2x of that, and make it seem doable.
What about working smarter AND harder and doing OMFS to shuck wizzys?
 
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That's very common mentality among asian people(or immigrants really).

The millenials/gen Z however... lol (asians included)

I’m an immigrant too. I have been in the US for about 20 years. I worked my butt off to get out of dentistry 70% compared to when I started. People have to steer their ships to avoid financial icebergs. Dentistry has changed, more new icebergs our there every year. Covid alone created wage and supply inflations. No one predicted covid, but it was a wake up call to not take anything for granted and never to be complacent. There will be more crosswinds ahead for dentistry, not just in rising in student loans, but IMO; a shortage of dental assistants with all the new dental schools opening, insurances cutting reimbursements further, more inflation in the near term, etc.

One of my GP friend’s front desk manager was poached recently by another office with $75k a year offer. The front desk manager took the offer and left my friend’s office with no notice. An ortho friend had an exodus of 3 experienced staff couple of months ago. He was shocked and had to retrain new employees (still training them). These distributions will increase as we are just a reflection of what’s happening in the larger economy’s workforce issues.
 
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No one can predict the future. We can only make an educated guess about it based on the current trends. Since we can’t control the future, it’s best to do things that we can do today…things that are within our control….when dentistry/ortho still serves us well today….grab every good opportunity that is still available for us today. When we build enough cushions (being debt-free, having money in saving accounts, having stable passive incomes etc) around ourselves from years of hard work/sacrifice when we were younger, we won’t have to worry about the uncertainty of the future.

When I see some of my colleagues, who are at my age, still have worry about things like loan repayments, inflation, economic recession, rising cost of living, staff who quit etc, I feel much better about where I am at now. All of my hard work during my earlier years paid off big time.
 
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No one can predict the future. We can only make an educated guess about it based on the current trends. Since we can’t control the future, it’s best to do things that we can do today…things that are within our control….when dentistry/ortho still serves us well today….grab every good opportunity that is still available for us today. When we build enough cushions (being debt-free, having money in saving accounts, having stable passive incomes etc) around ourselves from years of hard work/sacrifice when we were younger, we won’t have to worry about the uncertainty of the future.

When I see some of my colleagues, who are at my age, still have worry about things like loan repayments, inflation, economic recession, rising cost of living, staff who quit etc, I feel much better about where I am at now. All of my hard work during my earlier years paid off big time.

Yes. Delayed gratification is key to success.

As far as fearing recession and other economic woes, I think that applies to everyone. Whether you have savings or not. Everyone feels the effects of an economic downturn. I remember in 2008 when the financial crisis hit, I was 2nd year in dental school, but I remember watching the financial news and seeing people losing their jobs and all their savings. A good movie that sums it up for me is called “Marginal Call”. I have an older friend who lost upwards of $2M in his brokerage/retirement accounts in the 2008 recession. He didn’t end up being broke, but still, losing $2M is no welcome news for someone who’s net worth was about $6-8M at the time. If a recession happens again, we are all on the same boat but sitting on different sides of the boat. It’s good to diversify and not lose all your money in 1 basket. 2022 will be stagflation year (high inflation + slow growth), and I think 2023 will be when recession is likely to hit. Europe will be getting into a recession before we do... because of the war, energy crisis, etc. But the recession will be global, and we are going to see it too.
 
Yes. Delayed gratification is key to success.

As far as fearing recession and other economic woes, I think that applies to everyone. Whether you have savings or not. Everyone feels the effects of an economic downturn. I remember in 2008 when the financial crisis hit, I was 2nd year in dental school, but I remember watching the financial news and seeing people losing their jobs and all their savings. A good movie that sums it up for me is called “Marginal Call”. I have an older friend who lost upwards of $2M in his brokerage/retirement accounts in the 2008 recession. He didn’t end up being broke, but still, losing $2M is no welcome news for someone who’s net worth was about $6-8M at the time. If a recession happens again, we are all on the same boat but sitting on different sides of the boat. It’s good to diversify and not lose all your money in 1 basket. 2022 will be stagflation year (high inflation + slow growth), and I think 2023 will be when recession is likely to hit. Europe will be getting into a recession before we do... because of the war, energy crisis, etc. But the recession will be global, and we are going to see it too.
Be careful with your spending. Live as if the recession would come to the US economy tomorrow (ie live within your means, set aside an emergency fund, pay in full for everything that you purchase, stop the “buy now pay later” habit etc) and you will never see a recession in your life. An analogy for this would be like me practicing in an oversaturated market of SoCal…..I get used to the fierce competition and the presence of the dental corps, which force me to learn to adapt….. and therefore, I fail to see that dentistry (specifically, my ortho specialty) is heading in a wrong direction. I guess that’s why I feel happier about my job than what other orthos, who practice in other states, feel about theirs.

Yeah, I agree that you need to diversify your investments and savings….including putting some of your cash savings under the mattress….convenience, easy access. LOL.
 
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Yes. Delayed gratification is key to success.

As far as fearing recession and other economic woes, I think that applies to everyone. Whether you have savings or not. Everyone feels the effects of an economic downturn. I remember in 2008 when the financial crisis hit, I was 2nd year in dental school, but I remember watching the financial news and seeing people losing their jobs and all their savings. A good movie that sums it up for me is called “Marginal Call”. I have an older friend who lost upwards of $2M in his brokerage/retirement accounts in the 2008 recession. He didn’t end up being broke, but still, losing $2M is no welcome news for someone who’s net worth was about $6-8M at the time. If a recession happens again, we are all on the same boat but sitting on different sides of the boat. It’s good to diversify and not lose all your money in 1 basket. 2022 will be stagflation year (high inflation + slow growth), and I think 2023 will be when recession is likely to hit. Europe will be getting into a recession before we do... because of the war, energy crisis, etc. But the recession will be global, and we are going to see it too.
But surely he made all his money back in quick order by staying in the market. Did he sell and lock in his losses?
 
Be careful with your spending. Live as if the recession would come to the US economy tomorrow (ie live within your means, set aside an emergency fund, pay in full for everything that you purchase, stop the “buy now pay later” habit etc) and you will never see a recession in your life. An analogy for this would be like me practicing in an oversaturated market of SoCal…..I get used to the fierce competition and the presence of the dental corps, which force me to learn to adapt….. and therefore, I fail to see that dentistry (specifically, my ortho specialty) is heading in a wrong direction. I guess that’s why I feel happier about my job than what other orthos, who practice in other states, feel about theirs.

Yeah, I agree that you need to diversify your investments and savings….including putting some of your cash savings under the mattress….convenience, easy access. LOL.
I see someone is definitley a Dave Ramsey follower, lol.
 
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But surely he made all his money back in quick order by staying in the market. Did he sell and lock in his losses?

Yes. He made it back. But he had a very unsettling feeling for a while, but it took years to get that money back and more now. This happened when he was about to retire, he was 62 yrs old at the time. He’s 76 now... and has more money he can spend. Plus he had some extra inheritance money since 2008. It’s good to learn a lot of things from senior people, not just finances. They have gone through a lot of black swan events in life and they enjoy telling their stories if you know them well enough. I don’t want to sound like a snob, but I’m old enough to remember the 2000 dot com bubble, the 2008 recession and recently covid. Those events have shaped my financial outlook and strategy for retirement. I’m going to be more than ok to have a nice nest egg, but who knows what the next big financial crisis could look like - and how it could dent my savings and plans. That’s why I follow a lot of current events; in the economy, politics and social topics - to educate myself on how to prepare for any financial storm. Self education is a powerful tool and can never be taught in school at a personal needs level.
 
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A good ratio to not exceed for med school is 1:1 debt to earnings. So ideally med school shouldn’t cost more than 200k. I have no idea how 3 or even 4 to 1 is reasonable for dental school. Assuming similar logic, one should not take out more than 150k for dental school

Always best to assume floor earnings. So Peds in a high cost city or associate at a dental office in high cost city.
 
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A good ratio to not exceed for med school is 1:1 debt to earnings. So ideally med school shouldn’t cost more than 200k. I have no idea how 3 or even 4 to 1 is reasonable for dental school. Assuming similar logic, one should not take out more than 150k for dental school

Always best to assume floor earnings. So Peds in a high cost city or associate at a dental office in high cost city.
Did you really just join the dental discussion just to say that doctors make more than dentists?...I find that interesting, but anyways welcome!
 
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Did you really just join the dental discussion just to say that doctors make more than dentists?...I find that interesting, but anyways welcome!
I saw the thread on the “new posts” tab and was so intrigued by a school charging 162k per year that I had to click it

Then I saw some fairly bad financial advice by some ITT saying it would be manageable to pay back. Just wanted to offer a counterpoint for people who might be tempted to take out that amount of loans after reading.
 
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I saw the thread on the “new posts” tab and was so intruiged by a school charging 162k per year that I had to click it

Then I saw some fairly bad financial advice by some ITT saying it would be manageable to pay back. Just wanted to offer a counterpoint for people who might be tempted to take out that amount of loans after reading.
Yeah I am with you 162k per year is crazy. I doubt there is a med school out there that charges that right?
 
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Yeah I am with you 162k per year is crazy. I doubt there is a med school out there that charges that right?

I don’t think that any MD schools are close to 162k COA. Even Tufts (most expensive) is like 77k tuition in fees. So after tuition + living expenses, students may be looking at 110k. Most schools are more reasonable than tufts.

I’m less familiar with DO schools but if I recall correctly, some of these schools can be like 100k tuition and fees, which is getting up to the “do not pay level,” especially considering that it is harder to specialize as a DO in most cases.
 
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I don’t think that any MD schools are close to 162k COA. Even Tufts (most expensive) is like 77k tuition in fees. So after tuition + living expenses, students may be looking at 110k. Most schools are more reasonable than tufts.

I’m less familiar with DO schools but if I recall correctly, some of these schools can be like 100k tuition and fees, which is getting up to the “do not pay level,” especially considering that it is harder to specialize as a DO in most cases.
This is probably one of the reasons why med schools are much harder to get into than dental schools. The ROI is much greater. Physicians, on the average, make more money and have lower student loan debt than dentists. That’s why the pathway to get into med school and to become a doctor is not easy. Having good GPA and MCAT score are not enough. You have to do research and other extracurricular activities as well. And that’s the reward for the students who chose to work hard during their undergrad years. The good students, who want to pursue dentistry, should also have higher chance of getting into cheap public dental schools and will have lower debt than the students who didn’t have good undergrad stats. Nothing in life is easy. You have to work hard in college so you can get into the professional school that you want. And continue to work hard while you are in professional school so you can specialize afterward. And continue to work hard after you graduate.

Work hard now so you can relax later. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
 
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A good ratio to not exceed for med school is 1:1 debt to earnings. So ideally med school shouldn’t cost more than 200k. I have no idea how 3 or even 4 to 1 is reasonable for dental school. Assuming similar logic, one should not take out more than 150k for dental school

Always best to assume floor earnings. So Peds in a high cost city or associate at a dental office in high cost city.

I don’t think any commercial bank would underwrite $600k in student loans if you told them that you would make $150k first year income and $250k/yr average long term income. Banks base their decisions on historical cash flow, not some promise that you will be financially successful eventually and pay all the debt back with interest (a total of maybe $1M) over many years. The banks would never take your word for it. They are not stupid enough to loan a student that insane amount of money who might not even graduate from dental school. The government however, are cutting blank checks with no equitable checks and balances. The old adage of “we are from the government, and we are here to help” has never applied to anything more than it does to student loans today. It’s absurd!
 
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Yes. He made it back. But he had a very unsettling feeling for a while, but it took years to get that money back and more now. This happened when he was about to retire, he was 62 yrs old at the time. He’s 76 now... and has more money he can spend. Plus he had some extra inheritance money since 2008. It’s good to learn a lot of things from senior people, not just finances. They have gone through a lot of black swan events in life and they enjoy telling their stories if you know them well enough. I don’t want to sound like a snob, but I’m old enough to remember the 2000 dot com bubble, the 2008 recession and recently covid. Those events have shaped my financial outlook and strategy for retirement. I’m going to be more than ok to have a nice nest egg, but who knows what the next big financial crisis could look like - and how it could dent my savings and plans. That’s why I follow a lot of current events; in the economy, politics and social topics - to educate myself on how to prepare for any financial storm. Self education is a powerful tool and can never be taught in school at a personal needs level.
Unfortunately your friend received poor financial advice at 62, who ever was advising him he either wasnt listening or they gave him bad advice, at 62 he should have a very conservative portfolio that would have dropped a bit but would have been a blip. The fact i took years lets me know he was in way too much equities. There is something to be said about asset allocation, and unfortunately with doctors hubris , I see it all the time. You see them now on FB young an old who think they can outsmart the market instead of simply riding along with the market. Like yourself I actually had money in 2000,2008, and COVID, as you said each time I learned something different and more, but the one fundamental is to invest diligently and know thy self in terms of risk tolerance and asset allocation.
 
but the one fundamental is to invest diligently and know thy self in terms of risk tolerance and asset allocation.
And buy Dogecoin.

61EA00E3-8626-49D4-9D2C-875CB4C01460.gif


Big Hoss
 
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I don’t think any commercial bank would underwrite $600k in student loans if you told them that you would make $150k first year income and $250k/yr average long term income. Banks base their decisions on historical cash flow, not some promise that you will be financially successful eventually and pay all the debt back with interest (a total of maybe $1M) over many years. The banks would never take your word for it. They are not stupid enough to loan a student that insane amount of money who might not even graduate from dental school. The government however, are cutting blank checks with no equitable checks and balances. The old adage of “we are from the government, and we are here to help” has never applied to anything more than it does to student loans today. It’s absurd!
Exactly why loan availability should be pegged to potential future earnings and attrition rates. Read an article in the WSJ about Columbia film school grads taking on 250k in debt. For medicine or dentistry, this number isn’t absurd because there is a very small risk of default.
 
Exactly why loan availability should be pegged to potential future earnings and attrition rates. Read an article in the WSJ about Columbia film school grads taking on 250k in debt. For medicine or dentistry, this number isn’t absurd because there is a very small risk of default.

The industry is designed to keep graduates in debt.
 
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Should people rely on the government to forgive their dental school debt?
 
Should people rely on the government to forgive their dental school debt?

The government (believe it or not) is the true villain in the scheme. It has many mandates to keep society productive at all cost. The student loans are small investments, in this case let’s say dental students. So when they enter the workforce as dentists, they will pay back the high student loans (that can never be written off through bankruptcy) with interest, along with higher income taxes on their 6 figure incomes. Dentists also create jobs as employers, so the government will also find more money from us through employer payroll taxes, employees we hired’s wages taxes, office supplies we buy sales taxes, and on and on. Not to mention paying the government in many other business related routes. If those student loans were not made in the first place, the government would lose the opportunity to make 100x return on their investment. Now, the government’s blank checks for student loans is to get as many minions as they can to keep their strategy going, even if the minions may not be able to pay off the debt and become unhappy in their career choices. Isn’t capitalism beautiful?
 
The government (believe it or not) is the true villain in the scheme. It has many mandates to keep society productive at all cost. The student loans are small investments, in this case let’s say dental students. So when they enter the workforce as dentists, they will pay back the high student loans (that can never be written off through bankruptcy) with interest, along with higher income taxes on their 6 figure incomes. Dentists also create jobs as employers, so the government will also find more money from us through employer payroll taxes, employees we hired’s wages taxes, office supplies we buy sales taxes, and on and on. Not to mention paying the government in many other business related routes. If those student loans were not made in the first place, the government would lose the opportunity to make 100x return on their investment. Now, the government’s blank checks for student loans is to get as many minions as they can to keep their strategy going, even if the minions may not be able to pay off the debt and become unhappy in their career choices. Isn’t capitalism beautiful?
The problem is, they are the villain because they’ve monopolized the student loan sector. And frankly a government entity single handedly running an entire area goes against capitalism. The lending should be done privately. Why? At some point they say hey this is getting outrageous, we’re only going to give you “x” amount. If the students are limited by how much they can borrow, schools are restricted on how much they charge. Now, there aren’t many things I believe Canada gets right, but the one thing they do well is student loans are ran privately. That’s why it’s astronomically cheaper to go to dental school there. Even international students pay less than some in state student in the States.
 
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The problem is, they are the villain because they’ve monopolized the student loan sector. And frankly a government entity single handedly running an entire area goes against capitalism. The lending should be done privately. Why? At some point they say hey this is getting outrageous, we’re only going to give you “x” amount. If the students are limited by how much they can borrow, schools are restricted on how much they charge. Now, there aren’t many things I believe Canada gets right, but the one thing they do well is student loans are ran privately. That’s why it’s astronomically cheaper to go to dental school there. Even international students pay less than some in state student in the States.

The reason the government monopolized the student loans business is because it would be too risky for private lenders to give such big debt to students without any collateral. In fact, there is a recent little known story where many third party (and for profit) federal student loans debt service companies didn’t renew their contracts with the government during covid. Because they were managing trillions of student loans with payments that are still frozen to this day. They realized that an avalanche of defaults would erupt once student loans payments are resumed by the government, and they didn’t want to get caught up in it. So the student loans debt has been allowed to grow so big by the government, that only the government could participate in that level of high risk at the gallows. The government’s blue print is and will always be - that student loans at any level is for the “greater good”.
 
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The reason the government monopolized the student loans business is because it would be too risky for private lenders to give such big debt to students without any collateral. In fact, there is a recent little known story where many third party (and for profit) federal student loans debt service companies didn’t renew their contracts with the government during covid. Because they were managing trillions of student loans with payments that are still frozen to this day. They realized that an avalanche of defaults would erupt once student loans payments are resumed by the government, and they didn’t want to get caught up in it. So the student loans debt has been allowed to grow so big by the government, that only the government could participate in that level of high risk at the gallows. The government’s blue print is and will always be - that student loans at any level is for the “greater good”.
The ongoing 2 year freeze on payimg back student loans is a huge problem, in fact I thinks its a huge mistake that will have unintended consequences. There should have been a 6 month freeze maybe 1 year but thats it. The longer it goes the more people get used to not paying it and adding another bill to take its place. I see lots of doc on FB who in the one breath complain about SL and how they got conned, and in another post talking about GME stock, and is it good time top load up on more Tesla stock etc.
 
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The ongoing 2 year freeze on payimg back student loans is a huge problem, in fact I thinks its a huge mistake that will have unintended consequences. There should have been a 6 month freeze maybe 1 year but thats it. The longer it goes the more people get used to not paying it and adding another bill to take its place. I see lots of doc on FB who in the one breath complain about SL and how they got conned, and in another post talking about GME stock, and is it good time top load up on more Tesla stock etc.
Exactly. The #1 rule of politics is that you can’t take back a benefit once it has be given
 
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Exactly. The #1 rule of politics is that you can’t take back a benefit once it has be given

Just like wage inflation. Once you give someone a raise, you can’t walk it back, ever, unless they are terminated or quit.

I agree about the student loans payments complacency.. the payments should’ve been resumed last year when people had more stimulus dough/were more liquid and inflation was closer to 1%. Now you have a situation where high inflation (8-10%) is eating into people’s disposable income and all of the sudden they are making ends meet to keep up with rising rent/mortgage, food, fuel, travel, etc. That’s why I think there will be another extension during this inflationary environment. Maybe one final 90 days extension, through the end of the year. Even then, inflation will remain above 5%. So last year was the best time to resume.
 
The ongoing 2 year freeze on payimg back student loans is a huge problem, in fact I thinks its a huge mistake that will have unintended consequences. There should have been a 6 month freeze maybe 1 year but thats it. The longer it goes the more people get used to not paying it and adding another bill to take its place. I see lots of doc on FB who in the one breath complain about SL and how they got conned, and in another post talking about GME stock, and is it good time top load up on more Tesla stock etc.

Outstanding consumer debt in the U.S. reached $4.4 trillion in November 2021. That figure represents an increase of nearly $1.9 trillion since 2010. The main culprit is student loans, which the federal government effectively monopolized in a little-known provision of the Affordable Care Act, signed into law in 2010.

Prior to the Affordable Care Act, a majority of student loans originated with a private lender but were guaranteed by the government, meaning taxpayers foot the bill if student borrowers default. In 2010, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated only 55% of loans fell into this category, compared to about 93% today.

Prior to the administration of Bill Clinton, the federal government owned zero student loans, although it had been in the business of guaranteeing loans since at least 1965 (LBJ).
 
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Outstanding consumer debt in the U.S. reached $4.4 trillion in November 2021. That figure represents an increase of nearly $1.9 trillion since 2010. The main culprit is student loans, which the federal government effectively monopolized in a little-known provision of the Affordable Care Act, signed into law in 2010.

Prior to the Affordable Care Act, a majority of student loans originated with a private lender but were guaranteed by the government, meaning taxpayers foot the bill if student borrowers default. In 2010, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated only 55% of loans fell into this category, compared to about 93% today.

Prior to the administration of Bill Clinton, the federal government owned zero student loans, although it had been in the business of guaranteeing loans since at least 1965 (LBJ).

97% of all student debt was held by people earning less than $150,000 as individuals or less than $300,000 as a couple in 2019. The poorest 20 percent of Americans hold just 8 percent of the nation’s total student debt. So clearly 92% of the total debt is held by the other top 80%.

97% of all dentists (probably) owed more than $150k in student loans in 2019.

The contrast shows that dental schools have become a cash cow for universities, and they are easier to raise fees than any other program at an institution.
 
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97% of all student debt was held by people earning less than $150,000 as individuals or less than $300,000 as a couple in 2019. The poorest 20 percent of Americans hold just 8 percent of the nation’s total student debt. So clearly 92% of the total debt is held by the other top 80%.

97% of all dentists (probably) owed more than $150k in student loans in 2019.

The contrast shows that dental schools have become a cash cow for universities, and they are easier to raise fees than any other program at an institution.
I guess at some point in the future, some private dental schools will become too expensive for many students to attend. And the only way for these schools to fill all the seats is to accept the rich students who have parents who help pay in full or part of the tuition. These rich dental grads will be fine because they won’t have any student loan debt.

When that happens, dental schools will be like trade schools. Anyone who has ok stats but a lot of money can get in….like the current Georgia ortho program. But right now, it’s still very hard to get into dental schools. My referral dentist’s daughter applied for dental schools the last cycle but she didn’t get in anywhere. Her mom’s dental school, USC, didn’t even call her for an interview. She did a1-yr postbac but it didn’t help.
 
I guess at some point in the future, some private dental schools will become too expensive for many students to attend. And the only way for these schools to fill all the seats is to accept the rich students who have parents who help pay in full or part of the tuition. These rich dental grads will be fine because they won’t have any student loan debt.

When that happens, dental schools will be like trade schools. Anyone who has ok stats but a lot of money can get in….like the current Georgia ortho program. But right now, it’s still very hard to get into dental schools. My referral dentist’s daughter applied for dental schools the last cycle but she didn’t get in anywhere. Her mom’s dental school, USC, didn’t even call her for an interview. She did a1-yr postbac but it didn’t help.
The schools are getting more and more expensive and the average stats of people getting accepted are increasing year after year. It's crazy...
 
The schools are getting more and more expensive and the average stats of people getting accepted are increasing year after year. It's crazy...
These stats are way higher than the stats during the time when I applied (20+ years ago). Nyu dental school accepted me based on my GPA (which wasn't very high by today's standard) alone....the school didn't know my DAT score because I submitted it late. That's how easy it was to become a dentist during my year. I was very lucky to get into UCLA.

I've heard that the dental students and med school students have very similar undergrad GPAs. That's why many students here blasted me when I said it's harder to get into med schools than into dental schools.
 
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I guess at some point in the future, some private dental schools will become too expensive for many students to attend. And the only way for these schools to fill all the seats is to accept the rich students who have parents who help pay in full or part of the tuition. These rich dental grads will be fine because they won’t have any student loan debt.

When that happens, dental schools will be like trade schools. Anyone who has ok stats but a lot of money can get in….like the current Georgia ortho program. But right now, it’s still very hard to get into dental schools. My referral dentist’s daughter applied for dental schools the last cycle but she didn’t get in anywhere. Her mom’s dental school, USC, didn’t even call her for an interview. She did a1-yr postbac but it didn’t help.
I'm surprised to hear this. I thought for state schools like UCLA or UCSF, sure they're competitive to get into, but I honestly thought that expensive non-Ivy private schools like USC or Tufts would accept most kids that have ok stats and some dental extra-curricular activities. With a dentist mom, that girl probably had a lot of shadowing hours on her application.
 
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I'm surprised to hear this. I thought for state schools like UCLA or UCSF, sure they're competitive to get into, but I honestly thought that expensive non-Ivy private schools like USC or Tufts would accept most kids that have ok stats and some dental extra-curricular activities. With a dentist mom, that girl probably had a lot of shadowing hours on her application.
She currently works at her mom’s office as a manager/assistant. I guess her stats aren’t great. I didn’t dare to ask her mom why she didn’t get any interview. She was a very bright student in HS. She got full scholarship for all 4 years at a state university. But in her second year, she wanted to study abroad….in Korea…I could smell something wrong right there. A year later, I heard she moved to Japan….and then she went back to the US…and then to NYC….and then back to the same state university to complete her BS. Surprisingly, this university still gave her the scholarship because she was able to maintain the required GPA. She is 26-27 and still can’t get into dental school. My niece, who was in the same HS class with her, got her DDS degree a year ago.
 
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I guess at some point in the future, some private dental schools will become too expensive for many students to attend. And the only way for these schools to fill all the seats is to accept the rich students who have parents who help pay in full or part of the tuition. These rich dental grads will be fine because they won’t have any student loan debt.

When that happens, dental schools will be like trade schools. Anyone who has ok stats but a lot of money can get in….like the current Georgia ortho program. But right now, it’s still very hard to get into dental schools. My referral dentist’s daughter applied for dental schools the last cycle but she didn’t get in anywhere. Her mom’s dental school, USC, didn’t even call her for an interview. She did a1-yr postbac but it didn’t help.
I would argue we are already here.

500k+ to become a GP is ridiculous
 
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I hate to be this way but I'm worried about our profession. I guess nowadays there's a million things to worry about, but the way dental education is shaping up has me worried.
 
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I would argue we are already here.

500k+ to become a GP is ridiculous

Yes. We are there. The new d school application cycle opens this month. Those applicants will be paying even higher cost and set a new bar for student debt. It’s a conveyor belt, until someone throws a wrench at it, I don’t think anything will stop it in the foreseeable future.
 
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Yes. We are there. The new d school application cycle opens this month. Those applicants will be paying even higher cost and set a new bar for student debt. It’s a conveyor belt, until someone throws a wrench at it, I don’t think anything will stop it in the foreseeable future.
It may not be a bad thing that the student loan debt cannot be discharged by filing bankruptcy. Because it cannot be discharged, it should help motivate a person to work a lot harder to pay it off ASAP. Another way to get rid of it is to use the home equity line of credit to pay it off. That’s kind of what I did. I sold my first house (to upgrade to a bigger one) and used the profit to pay down the student loan debt. Two years later, I sold the second house (to upgrade to a 5400sf house) and used the profit to pay off the rest of the student loan debt. I was 100% student loan debt-free but I owed a lot of $$$ on the third house. At one point during the 2008 housing crisis, this house was worth less than what I owed on it. Well, at least the home loan was better than student loans….I could write off on the interest….I could sell the house if I didn’t want to pay the mortgage.

I don’t think I would have worked the way I did if I had rich parents who gave me everything. Paying off student loan debt ASAP and wanting to have more than just an average lifestyle (aka wanting to be rich) were the 2 things that motivated me to work hard every day. And the result of my hard work turns out to be much better than what I imagined, especially in a saturated market of CA….and for an introvert person like myself. I love my job because it gives me the financial security. Some colleagues constantly complain about their job, which is the same exact job that I have, because they choose not to pay off debts ASAP. They want a work-life balance…don’t want to work on the weekends, don’t want to work under a general dentist boss, don’t want this, don’t want that etc. Because of the debt, they still have to worry about things like recession, increase in competition (due to openings of new ortho programs and corp offices), losing patients, losing a referring dentist etc. If you are in your 50s and you still have to worry about any of these, it’s a little bit too late…you don’t have much time left to work to save for your retirement. I am in a camp of “work hard now and enjoy life later.”

At least dentistry can get you out of this mess...it's not 100% impossible. You are not stuck if you choose not to. For other grads with non-science majors, they are in more serious trouble if they attend expensive private schools.....their lives are ruined. I heard about this one dentist, who later decided to become a catholic nun. At least with her good paying dental job, she was able to pay off her student loan debt in a short amount of time before she became a full time nun.
 
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It may not be a bad thing that the student loan debt cannot be discharged by filing bankruptcy. Because it cannot be discharged, it should help motivate a person to work a lot harder to pay it off ASAP. Another way to get rid of it is to use the home equity line of credit to pay it off. That’s kind of what I did. I sold my first house (to upgrade to a bigger one) and used the profit to pay down the student loan debt. Two years later, I sold the second house (to upgrade to a 5400sf house) and used the profit to pay off the rest of the student loan debt. I was 100% student loan debt-free but I owed a lot of $$$ on the third house. At one point during the 2008 housing crisis, this house was worth less than what I owed on it. Well, at least the home loan was better than student loans….I could write off on the interest….I could sell the house if I didn’t want to pay the mortgage.

I don’t think I would have worked the way I did if I had rich parents who gave me everything. Paying off student loan debt ASAP and wanting to have more than just an average lifestyle (aka wanting to be rich) were the 2 things that motivated me to work hard every day. And the result of my hard work turns out to be much better than what I imagined, especially in a saturated market of CA….and for an introvert person like myself. I love my job because it gives me the financial security. Some colleagues constantly complain about their job, which is the same exact job that I have, because they choose not to pay off debts ASAP. They want a work-life balance…don’t want to work on the weekends, don’t want to work under a general dentist boss, don’t want this, don’t want that etc. Because of the debt, they still have to worry about things like recession, increase in competition (due to openings of new ortho programs and corp offices), losing patients, losing a referring dentist etc. If you are in your 50s and you still have to worry about any of these, it’s a little bit too late…you don’t have much time left to work to save for your retirement. I am in a camp of “work hard now and enjoy life later.”

At least dentistry can get you out of this mess...it's not 100% impossible. You are not stuck if you choose not to. For other grads with non-science majors, they are in more serious trouble if they attend expensive private schools.....their lives are ruined. I heard about this one dentist, who later decided to become a catholic nun. At least with her good paying dental job, she was able to pay off her student loan debt in a short amount of time before she became a full time nun.
Yes but all dental and medical students need to evaluate whether the glory days of each profession are in the rear view window before taking on the debt. Before, there wasn’t as much to worry about in regards to NPs, PAs dental Midlevels etc.

With the way these professions seem to be heading, I would be cautious.

One of the med schools that I got into was going to be 400k in loans. I don’t think I would have been able to take out that amount given my risk tolerance and view of the industry.

Fortunately, at 20k per year in loans, I feel much more comfortable paying back the debt even if medicine changes
 
Yes but all dental and medical students need to evaluate whether the glory days of each profession are in the rear view window before taking on the debt. Before, there wasn’t as much to worry about in regards to NPs, PAs dental Midlevels etc.

With the way these professions seem to be heading, I would be cautious.

One of the med schools that I got into was going to be 400k in loans. I don’t think I would have been able to take out that amount given my risk tolerance and view of the industry.

Fortunately, at 20k per year in loans, I feel much more comfortable paying back the debt even if medicine changes
It’s good that you have the option to reject more expensive med schools and choose a cheap med school. That’s your reward for your hard work in college. A lot of people (including my 17 yo son who will attend college this Fall) want to be in your position regardless of the cost. Many don’t have good enough stats and therefore, they have to go to the more expensive med schools that accept them…..or have to switch to another field ie dentistry, pharmacy, optometry, nursing, PA etc. It’s still way better than being unemployed….a BS degree in Bio/Biochem is useless. A lot of engineers and other older non-traditional students want to go back to school to pursue a career in healthcare (because of the job stability and better pay) but they couldn’t do it because they don’t have good enough stats for it. They’ve worked in the real world for a while and they know how hard it is to make a living.
 
Yes but all dental and medical students need to evaluate whether the glory days of each profession are in the rear view window before taking on the debt. Before, there wasn’t as much to worry about in regards to NPs, PAs dental Midlevels etc.

With the way these professions seem to be heading, I would be cautious.

One of the med schools that I got into was going to be 400k in loans. I don’t think I would have been able to take out that amount given my risk tolerance and view of the industry.

An acquaintance of mine graduated with $400k debt from a DO school. She matched and about to finish her 3 years of internal med residency. She’s 34 and single. Do you think if she is in a good position financially?
 
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An acquaintance of mine graduated with $400k debt from a DO school. She matched and about to finish her 3 years of internal med residency. She’s 34 and single. Do you think if she is in a good position financially?
Not really but it depends on where she lives. On 400k she will be paying about 3400 per month in bills. Let’s assume she makes 300k which would probably be in a rural area (would be like 250k in an urban area). After loans and taxes she would have about 11k per month. After bills she might have like 4k to invest.

I mean it’s definitely not like she will be going hungry or without necessities but it may not be the lifestyle she envisioned prior to starting med school
 
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Not really but it depends on where she lives. On 400k she will be paying about 3400 per month in bills. Let’s assume she makes 300k which would probably be in a rural area (would be like 250k in an urban area). After loans and taxes she would have about 11k per month. After bills she might have like 4k to invest.

I mean it’s definitely not like she will be going hungry or without necessities but it may not be the lifestyle she envisioned prior to starting med school
That’s a fair assessment. She just accepted a job in a city in the Midwest. She once told me that she envisioned marrying another doctor so they could live a comfortable life with dual physician income. She has been too focused on school and training in the past few years to be able to find someone, and tbh at age 34 the odds are not in her favor anymore.
 
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That’s a fair assessment. She just accepted a job in a city in the Midwest. She once told me that she envisioned marrying another doctor so they could live a comfortable life with dual physician income. She has been too focused on school and training in the past few years to be able to find someone, and tbh at age 34 the odds are not in her favor anymore.
Ya tbh this is one of the major downsides of med school and residency. Assuming one starts at 24 or 25 and isn’t married yet, they will have a lot of pressure on them to also do that before completing med school and residency. I feel like if one can’t make it happen during for whatever reason, it almost becomes too late since one is 31 or 32 when completing residency.
 
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How DARE you suggest going to a rural area. The best avocado toast is only in Austin TX or Miami FL.
Not really but it depends on where she lives. On 400k she will be paying about 3400 per month in bills. Let’s assume she makes 300k which would probably be in a rural area (would be like 250k in an urban area). After loans and taxes she would have about 11k per month. After bills she might have like 4k to invest.

I mean it’s definitely not like she will be going hungry or without necessities but it may not be the lifestyle she envisioned prior to starting med school
 
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Not really but it depends on where she lives. On 400k she will be paying about 3400 per month in bills. Let’s assume she makes 300k which would probably be in a rural area (would be like 250k in an urban area). After loans and taxes she would have about 11k per month. After bills she might have like 4k to invest.

I mean it’s definitely not like she will be going hungry or without necessities but it may not be the lifestyle she envisioned prior to starting med school
I also know an acquaintance who's a DO. He graduated from Western University, an expensive private DO school in CA. He has worked for Kaiser hospital for many years. He really hates his job because of the heavy 8-10 hrs per day work load and the way the hospital treats him....like dirt. He has to work very hard to keep the patients happy in order to maintain good patient reviews. The reason he hangs on to this job is the good retirement package that Kaiser will give him after working there for 25 years (8 more years for him....when turns 58)...they will pay him a percentage of his salary for the rest of his life. If he stays there beyond the 25-year mark, he will get an even bigger retirement compensation. But he plans to quit when he turns 58 and to work PT somewhere else.

I asked him if it's a good idea for my son to do medicine. He told me not to do family practice like him.....needs to specialize.
 
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I also know an acquaintance who's a DO. He graduated from Western University, an expensive private DO school in CA. He has worked for Kaiser hospital for many years. He really hates his job because of the heavy 8-10 hrs per day work load and the way the hospital treats him....like dirt. He has to work very hard to keep the patients happy in order to maintain good patient reviews. The reason he hangs on to this job is the good retirement package that Kaiser will give him after working there for 25 years (8 more years for him....when turns 58)...they will pay him a percentage of his salary for the rest of his life. If he stays there beyond the 25-year mark, he will get an even bigger retirement compensation. But he plans to quit when he turns 58 and to work PT somewhere else.

I asked him if it's a good idea for my son to do medicine. He told me not to do family practice like him.....needs to specialize.
I would say that FM/IM/Peds is okay if you stay away from California/New England.
 
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