USC vs UCSF (and other CA Schools)

[silverkingfish88]

Love both programs, but just looking to hear some advice from others on which one you all feel is better (based on price, pass rates, job opportunities in Cali, etc.). Grads and fellow people in pharmacy, what do you think??

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[PharmtoCS]

Grads and fellow people in pharmacy, what do you think??

Neither. Going for computer science or engineering at one of the UCs would be the best choice. Graduates from these majors are paid well, have a much easier time finding a job, do not have to move out of California out to the middle of nowhere for a job, enjoy a far better work-life balance, and do not have to take out $200k+ in loans and spend an additional 4 years of their lives in school.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Love both programs, but just looking to hear some advice from others on which one you all feel is better (based on price, pass rates, job opportunities in Cali, etc.). Grads and fellow people in pharmacy, what do you think??

80+% of new grads in 2019 and beyond are unemployed or underemployed and we’re still discussing which school is better? When there’s no jobs there’s no jobs.

Also, consumers will pay top dollar to see a good doctor or hire a good lawyer but they won’t care about who their pharmacist is. They only care about which pharmacy fills their meds the fastest and gives them the least hassle so to think that you’ll have a better chance of finding a job because you went to a “good” school is naive thinking because pharmacy is not a merit-based profession.

 

[steveysmith54]

If you’re seeking info on tuition and pass rates, you can find that with a google search.

 

[rxkrafted]

If you have trouble doing research between two schools, you most likely did not do your research on the pharmacy job market.
I did a quick search on the tuition for UCSF and USC... >$209K and >$235K , respectively. These are even tuition costs for California residents and interest isn't even calculated into that. I'm not sure what kind of lifestyle you are imagining coming out of school with those kinds of loans but I promise you no one will be calling you doctor.

 

[confettiflyer]

UCSF for sure, but I’m biased.


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[AONLINE]

If you have trouble doing research between two schools, you most likely did not do your research on the pharmacy job market.
I did a quick search on the tuition for UCSF and USC... >$209K and >$235K , respectively. These are even tuition costs for California residents and interest isn't even calculated into that. I'm not sure what kind of lifestyle you are imagining coming out of school with those kinds of loans but I promise you no one will be calling you doctor.

I have many friends and family currently in pharm school. They all told me that as long as one attend a top pharm school (e.g. UCSF, UNC, UMinn, UMich...) they should have no problem getting a job.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I have many friends and family currently in pharm school. They all told me that as long as one attend a top pharm school (e.g. UCSF, UNC, UMinn, UMich...) they should have no problem getting a job.

I don’t know what world they’re living in, but if they have not graduated yet then they have zero credibility when it comes to giving advice about the job market. They will all be in for a rude awakening when they find themselves unemployed after graduating.

 

[spacecowgirl]

How destitute would you like to be in 4 years?

 

[rxkrafted]

I have many friends and family currently in pharm school. They all told me that as long as one attend a top pharm school (e.g. UCSF, UNC, UMinn, UMich...) they should have no problem getting a job.

I have many friends and family who are currently working in the pharmacy, including myself. They all told me their employers are not hiring anytime soon. Good luck battling out against hundreds of applicants as soon as a job gets posted.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I have many friends and family currently in pharm school. They all told me that as long as one attend a top pharm school (e.g. UCSF, UNC, UMinn, UMich...) they should have no problem getting a job.

False. Saturation knows no school rankings (which are arbitrary anyway)

 

[Dred Pirate]

I have many friends and family currently in pharm school. They all told me that as long as one attend a top pharm school (e.g. UCSF, UNC, UMinn, UMich...) they should have no problem getting a job.

they are wrong - I know grads from the "#1 pharmacy school in the nation" that are unemployed

 

[BC_89]

Moving to pharmacy school specific discussions.

Nonetheless, you've been given some solid advice albeit may seem sardonic (yet true). If you had to keep going your rank them in this order:

1) Regional Accreditation status (a wash on these two schools)
2) Tuition Cost + Cost of Living

School ranking is not as important as simply having a pharmD from an accredited university these days.

 

[BMBiology]

Neither. Going for computer science or engineering at one of the UCs would be the best choice. Graduates from these majors are paid well, have a much easier time finding a job, do not have to move out of California out to the middle of nowhere for a job, enjoy a far better work-life balance, and do not have to take out $200k+ in loans and spend an additional 4 years of their lives in school.

Are you also telling truck drivers that they should go into CS? I don’t know why you keep on telling people this. If it is that simple and that lucrative then why don’t you do it? Why are you still doing pharmacy?

 

[PharmtoCS]

Are you also telling truck drivers that they should go into CS? I don’t know why you keep on telling people this. If it is that simple and that lucrative then why don’t you do it? Why are you still doing pharmacy?

Not saying CS is easy, but giving it a shot is a much better option than risking 4 years and $200k+ in student loans for a devalued degree.

I am hanging onto pharmacy for now so that I can finish off my loans and save for a down payment as I look for an exit strategy.

 

[RxEvileye]

80+% of new grads in 2019 and beyond are unemployed or underemployed and we’re still discussing which school is better? When there’s no jobs there’s no jobs.

Also, consumers will pay top dollar to see a good doctor or hire a good lawyer but they won’t care about who their pharmacist is. They only care about which pharmacy fills their meds the fastest and gives them the least hassle so to think that you’ll have a better chance of finding a job because you went to a “good” school is naive thinking because pharmacy is not a merit-based profession.

Both of these schools have high rates of employment, at least planned by around graduation based on their surveys:

USC: Graduation and Post-Graduation Data · USC School of Pharmacy

UCSF: Graduation Rate and Graduate Performance | PharmD Degree Program | UCSF

Other school rates can be found grouped here: Pharmacist Employment Data by College

Are you considering residency to be "underemployed"? I went to UCSF, got a PGY-1, and (because I chose to move to a saturated area rather than take available jobs at my institution) took a couple months of interviews but was able to get a "clinical" job right away.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Both of these schools have high rates of employment, at least planned by around graduation based on their surveys:

USC: Graduation and Post-Graduation Data · USC School of Pharmacy

UCSF: Graduation Rate and Graduate Performance | PharmD Degree Program | UCSF

Other school rates can be found grouped here: Pharmacist Employment Data by College

I don’t know what you’re reading that I’m not, but the link to USC’s post-graduation data clearly states that “Results are based on an annual survey of graduates regarding their future plans. Respondents are permitted to choose more than one area of interest on the survey.” In other words, the “graduation data” that USC publishes is no more than a list of “what our students want to do after graduating” as opposed to “where they are actually ending up” (and heavily inflated because you can give multiple answers per person). Hardly “evidence” to support “high rates of employment.”

As to UCSF, only 13% of graduates actually found jobs per the link you posted. The “unemployed” pharmacists would include people who fell in the “non-pharmacy job,” “other” and “tbd” categories, and folks pursuing residency/fellowship training should be omitted from the analysis set altogether. More description below.

Are you considering residency to be "underemployed"? I went to UCSF, got a PGY-1, and (because I chose to move to a saturated area rather than take available jobs at my institution) took a couple months of interviews but was able to get a "clinical" job right away.

No. This has been discussed multiple times on this forum but the fact of the matter is that you cannot consider someone who matched for a residency as truly “employed” after graduation because they will be looking for a job within one year. What is most appropriate to do is to send out the same survey to your new grad alumni at the end of their residency year and ask them what they have lined up immediately post residency. If they have nothing then they are considered unemployed, such as your case where you had to wait several months before getting a job, since the bottom line is that it’s the same situation as a new grad pharmacist taking several months to land their first job post-graduation.

If you start bringing in excuses such as “I can find a job it will just take a while because I’m looking in a saturated area” then that is number one a slippery slope you’re heading down, and number two not even a relevant argument to the original discussion around how the the name of your pharmacy school doesn’t matter when it comes to looking for jobs.

 

[RxEvileye]

I don’t know what you’re reading that I’m not, but the link to USC’s post-graduation data clearly states that “Results are based on an annual survey of graduates regarding their future plans. Respondents are permitted to choose more than one area of interest on the survey.” In other words, the “graduation data” that USC publishes is no more than a list of “what our students want to do after graduating” as opposed to “where they are actually ending up” (and heavily inflated because you can give multiple answers per person). Hardly “evidence” to support “high rates of employment.”

As to UCSF, only 13% of graduates actually found jobs per the link you posted. The “unemployed” pharmacists would include people who fell in the “non-pharmacy job,” “other” and “tbd” categories, and folks pursuing residency/fellowship training should be omitted from the analysis set altogether. More description below.


No. This has been discussed multiple times on this forum but the fact of the matter is that you cannot consider someone who matched for a residency as truly “employed” after graduation because they will be looking for a job within one year. What is most appropriate to do is to send out the same survey to your new grad alumni at the end of their residency year and ask them what they have lined up immediately post residency. If they have nothing then they are considered unemployed, such as your case where you had to wait several months before getting a job, since the bottom line is that it’s the same situation as a new grad pharmacist taking several months to land their first job post-graduation.

If you start bringing in excuses such as “I can find a job it will just take a while because I’m looking in a saturated area” then that is number one a slippery slope you’re heading down, and number two not even a relevant argument to the original discussion around how the the name of your pharmacy school doesn’t matter when it comes to looking for jobs.

Fair point that I do not know how USC defines "plans" but I would be surprised if such an established school had low employment, at least relative to the many other schools in the LA area.

I have the detailed survey results for UCSF from my year which are not published, and show exact employer totals. The few who answered "other" included special situations like post-graduation travel plans as a purposeful delay in seeking employment (must be nice), and actual employment that did not fit other categories e.g. hired directly into a pharmacy administration position after graduation. People have also gotten jobs very shortly after the survey deadline. I don't recall it being on graduation day, some may also have still been waiting on Phase II match results etc. Also keep in mind that 10% of the survey responses would be only about 12 people in a class of ~122 at the time.

It would be nice to track employment 1-2 years out for those doing residencies, and I do not know yet if the school attempts that or just checks in at later intervals. Perhaps it is in the published literature somewhere how much residency affects overall employment? However, I can say that from what I know the vast majority of my class has secured jobs. I am sure that I could comb through social media in 15 minutes and give you close to an exact percentage, but would this change your thoughts on anything?

Residency helped me not just to get a job in general, but to get a job that I wanted despite having little connection to the area I chose to move to. I even turned down a non-clinical job offer in the area since I had multiple interviews for clinical positions completed. I was able to be choosy on purpose, and some of my delay was from the process of moving itself, so please do not assume I am making excuses for a short gap in employment. I do not regret residency or would consider myself underemployed for that period. It opened doors and I can't say that I could have taken this path if I had gone to another school with much lower match rates.

I agree with you that the job market is overall tougher, but in CA many jobs especially in hospitals or other advanced roles require a residency. It really is a path to employment in this market.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Fair point that I do not know how USC defines "plans" but I would be surprised if such an established school had low employment, at least relative to the many other schools in the LA area.

I have the detailed survey results for UCSF from my year which are not published, and show exact employer totals. The few who answered "other" included special situations like post-graduation travel plans as a purposeful delay in seeking employment (must be nice), and actual employment that did not fit other categories e.g. hired directly into a pharmacy administration position after graduation. People have also gotten jobs very shortly after the survey deadline. I don't recall it being on graduation day, some may also have still been waiting on Phase II match results etc. Also keep in mind that 10% of the survey responses would be only about 12 people in a class of ~122 at the time.

It would be nice to track employment 1-2 years out for those doing residencies, and I do not know yet if the school attempts that or just checks in at later intervals. Perhaps it is in the published literature somewhere how much residency affects overall employment? However, I can say that from what I know the vast majority of my class has secured jobs. I am sure that I could comb through social media in 15 minutes and give you close to an exact percentage, but would this change your thoughts on anything?

Residency helped me not just to get a job in general, but to get a job that I wanted despite having little connection to the area I chose to move to. I even turned down a non-clinical job offer in the area since I had multiple interviews for clinical positions completed. I was able to be choosy on purpose, and some of my delay was from the process of moving itself, so please do not assume I am making excuses for a short gap in employment. I do not regret residency or would consider myself underemployed for that period. It opened doors and I can't say that I could have taken this path if I had gone to another school with much lower match rates.

I agree with you that the job market is overall tougher, but in CA many jobs especially in hospitals or other advanced roles require a residency. It really is a path to employment in this market.

This isn’t what the discussion is about. I am all for residency as it is the entryway to jobs these days, but the question at hand is “does the pharmacy school you attend have any bearing on your chances of getting a job?”

If you’re saying that it indirectly helps some, because it helps you have a better chance of getting a residency and therefore a better chance of getting a job after that (because all jobs require a residency) then sure I can buy that argument. But residency credentials aside, no employer is going to care what school you went to.

 

[RxEvileye]

This isn’t what the discussion is about. I am all for residency as it is the entryway to jobs these days, but the question at hand is “does the pharmacy school you attend have any bearing on your chances of getting a job?”

If you’re saying that it indirectly helps some, because it helps you have a better chance of getting a residency and therefore a better chance of getting a job after that (because all jobs require a residency) then sure I can buy that argument. But residency credentials aside, no employer is going to care what school you went to.

I would argue that yes, the chances of residency --> residency --> job is a direct rather than indirect help.

I know there is data to support a correlation between going to a school that has been around at least 10 years and residency placement. It makes sense that established schools have more connections and alumni employers who favor the school. I have also seen preferences along the lines of "We don't want to take APPE students from XYZ school because they do poorly". I am sure that school matters to at least some employers.

To the chain pharmacy manager looking at two applications from different schools? Probably less so if both seem competent and licensed. I would not take the extreme view that it doesn't matter at all.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I would argue that yes, the chances of residency --> residency --> job is a direct rather than indirect help.

I know there is data to support a correlation between going to a school that has been around at least 10 years and residency placement. It makes sense that established schools have more connections and alumni employers who favor the school. I have also seen preferences along the lines of "We don't want to take APPE students from XYZ school because they do poorly". I am sure that school matters to at least some employers.

To the chain pharmacy manager looking at two applications from different schools? Probably less so if both seem competent and licensed. I would not take the extreme view that it doesn't matter at all.

Hiring biases negate each other because pharmacists are going to hire alumni from their own school moreso than others. If pharmacy was based on strictly meritocracy then how do you think the 10 diploma mills in California are placing their graduates in the job market because those students sure as heck aren’t going to be as credentialed as those who went to the “top” schools? This phenomenon exists everywhere, but the confounding factor is the age of your school (as you stated) so it may appear like employers are hiring based on merit when in reality it is due their having a lot of alumni in hiring positions who favor hiring their own alumni not because they’re any good, but because of loyalty to the brand. UOP is a good example of this - OLD school, not an “elite” school, not a single student/graduate from that school who I’ve interacted with impressed me, yet they do pretty well in terms of job/residency placement because there are a buttload of UOP alumni living in CA.

 

[Chem7]

80+% of new grads in 2019 and beyond are unemployed or underemployed and we’re still discussing which school is better? When there’s no jobs there’s no jobs.

Also, consumers will pay top dollar to see a good doctor or hire a good lawyer but they won’t care about who their pharmacist is. They only care about which pharmacy fills their meds the fastest and gives them the least hassle so to think that you’ll have a better chance of finding a job because you went to a “good” school is naive thinking because pharmacy is not a merit-based profession.

You seem to be frustrated, change fields now!

 

[PharmtoCS]

You seem to be frustrated, change fields now!

Soon we’ll all be forced to change fields if pharmacist jobs continue to be hemorrhaged while 15,000 new grads are dumped on the market each year.

Just want to minimize the damage of pre-pharms by not having to waste $200k+ in loans and 4 years in the process.

 

[Chem7]

Soon we’ll all be forced to change fields if pharmacist jobs continue to be hemorrhaged while 15,000 new grads are dumped on the market each year.

Just want to minimize the damage of pre-pharms by not having to waste $200k+ in loans and 4 years in the process.

You don’t have what it takes to be a Pharmacist nowadays.