USNWR Best Med Schools 2023

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Thank you so much! This list seems to be much more like how I imagine reputations to actually be like, although Sinai at 11 is definitely a surprise
 
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Why are there two UCLA’s? This ranking is boring when the king can never be unseated due to funny way of accounting for what is considered HMS lol.
 
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I feel like midwestern schools are getting shafted even harder than usual in the last few years. USNWR really feeding the idea that everything between the West and East coast is a wasteland.
 
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best in research AKA all the lab grunts make us look good but the med skool itself might suck
 
I'mInDer! said:
I can promise you these rankings don't tell you anything about research prowess either lmfao
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When NYU climbed in the rankings due to money provided by NIH to replace a freezer farm destroyed in Super Storm Sandy, the jig was up and everyone could see what a charade these rankings are.

USSnooze charges schools a fee to place the USNews "top whatever" icon on their websites and promotional materials so this is a money maker for the list maker.
 
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When do the updated Post-II rates come out for last year's COVID cycle? Feel like that's probably more anticipated than these rankings.
 
Conjecture said:
I feel like midwestern schools are getting shafted even harder than usual in the last few years. USNWR really feeding the idea that everything between the West and East coast is a wasteland.
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As someone from the Midwest and having worked also at East Coast hospitals, I strongly agree!
 
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srirachamayonnaise said:
Why are there two UCLA’s? This ranking is boring when the king can never be unseated due to funny way of accounting for what is considered HMS lol.
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Why would it ever be unseated though? I feel like when most people think of the best med school (and undergrad) they think Harvard. That is how rankings should be. Not NIH grants or things that can be easily gamed

In this respect, med rankings are even better than college rankings which have Princeton #1

Edit: but it should probably be based on the opinions of other medical professionals rather than just a random sample
 
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voxveritatisetlucis said:
Why would it ever be unseated though? I feel like when most people think of the best med school (and undergrad) they think Harvard. That is how rankings should be. Not NIH grants or things that can be easily gamed

In this respect, med rankings are even better than college rankings which have Princeton #1
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legally blonde harvard GIF
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
Why would it ever be unseated though? I feel like when most people think of the best med school (and undergrad) they think Harvard. That is how rankings should be. Not NIH grants or things that can be easily gamed

In this respect, med rankings are even better than college rankings which have Princeton #1

Edit: but it should probably be based on the opinions of other medical professionals rather than just a random sample
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Seriously?! HMS is not absolutely the best in medicine as YLS is in law. YLS has no grades! The only law school that can do that and yet their graduates can go anywhere. HMS literally has nothing totally unique about it that other t5’s don’t have. I bet if you ask some random person on the street which is the best medical school, a lot of them would say Hopkins. Harvard overall is the symbol of powerful American higher education, and that’s about it.
 
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LizzyM said:
When NYU climbed in the rankings due to money provided by NIH to replace a freezer farm destroyed in Super Storm Sandy, the jig was up and everyone could see what a charade these rankings are.

USSnooze charges schools a fee to place the USNews "top whatever" icon on their websites and promotional materials so this is a money maker for the list maker.
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True, although I can't fault NYU because the rankings game has benefited many others at some point. The GPA/MCAT and NIH funding had WashU/Penn 2-4 for like 2 decades, changes in NIH funding measurements helped Stanford, including non-NIH grants helped Duke. Having enormous and massively funded hospitals/research centers has helped Harvard (and also UWash to a lesser degree bc of Fred Hutchinson).

The US News rankings have always been a game that never correlated with teaching and *loosely* correlated with research output. The "Old Guard" has been shaken up more in the past few years, but how else would US News maintain relevance and continue to help ruin medical education? Lol.
 
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voxveritatisetlucis said:
Why would it ever be unseated though? I feel like when most people think of the best med school (and undergrad) they think Harvard. That is how rankings should be. Not NIH grants or things that can be easily gamed

In this respect, med rankings are even better than college rankings which have Princeton #1

Edit: but it should probably be based on the opinions of other medical professionals rather than just a random sample
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isn’t the whole reason HMS is always #1 due to the fact it’s affiliated with a bunch of hospitals / researchers and therefore gets to “count” all that NIH grant money as theirs? So actually HMS is gaming the system per your precise definition, they’re number 1 on us news because of that grant money and not because of the opinions of other medical professionals. In the eyes of PDs HMS is not always universally one and their hospitals and clinical training are not universally one either.
 
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mangowolf said:
isn’t the whole reason HMS is always #1 due to the fact it’s affiliated with a bunch of hospitals / researchers and therefore gets to “count” all that NIH grant money as theirs? So actually HMS is gaming the system per your precise definition, they’re number 1 on us news because of that grant money and not because of the opinions of other medical professionals. In the eyes of PDs HMS is not always universally one and their hospitals and clinical training are not universally one either.
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Basically it’s like ranking UCSF+Hopkins as one school.
 
mangowolf said:
isn’t the whole reason HMS is always #1 due to the fact it’s affiliated with a bunch of hospitals / researchers and therefore gets to “count” all that NIH grant money as theirs? So actually HMS is gaming the system per your precise definition, they’re number 1 on us news because of that grant money and not because of the opinions of other medical professionals. In the eyes of PDs HMS is not always universally one and their hospitals and clinical training are not universally one either.
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I honestly feel like this whole debate about schools at the top of the rankings is sillier than the rankings themselves. Whether a school is no. 1 vs. no. 2 vs. no. 7... it really doesn't matter. It's a good school regardless.

Peeling back the curtain just slightly... NIH funding *is*, to a certain extent, a measure of an institution's standing within the research community. NIH grants are not reviewed by some small cabal of old white guys reviewing grants in Bethesda. Rather there is something called an "NIH study section" populated by leaders in the field across the country who reviews grants on behalf of the NIH to make funding decisions. A massive part of reviewing the grants is a examining the research environment, and for better or worse when someone sees "HMS" (or any institution affiliated with them, or "Hopkins," or "Penn," or "name your other ivory tower" institution) they immediately get the benefit of the doubt because of reputation. That leads to this lovely self-perpetuating machine where the ivory towers' reputations beget continued research funding begets maintaining their reputations... ad infinitum. But ultimately, with the exception of ridiculous stretches like including funding for a freezer in these calculations, NIH funding is to a certain extent tied to an institution's standing within the research community.

Realistically speaking, you will get good medical education at any US MD school. This question of whether "research environment" is an important measure for prospective medical students is a never-ending debate. I tend to land on the opinion, "Yes, it matters, but not as much as pre-meds think it does." Specifically, splitting hairs over a trivial number of spots is silly--there is probably a difference in reputation between the no. 10 school and the no. 85 school, while there is NOT a difference between the no. 23 school and the no. 31 school. Also reputation is meaningless if you don't make use of it to actually do the kind of research that can enhance your residency applications.
 
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srirachamayonnaise said:
Basically it’s like ranking UCSF+Hopkins as one school.
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For those interested, USN ranks via a points system, with each school getting a certain # of points based on their methodology. The difference between the #1 school and the #2 school is the same at the difference between the #2 school and the #22 school (100 vs 76 vs 51). When you drop all the way to the #3 school, the difference is the same as the difference between the #3 school and the #43 school (100 vs 70 vs 40).

Do we think the reputation difference between Harvard and UCSF/Hopkins is the same as the difference between UCSF or Hopkins and University of Cincinatti? :rofl:
 
iHawk_MD said:
For those interested, USN ranks via a points system, with each school getting a certain # of points based on their methodology. The difference between the #1 school and the #2 school is the same at the difference between the #2 school and the #22 school (100 vs 76 vs 51). When you drop all the way to the #3 school, the difference is the same as the difference between the #3 school and the #43 school (100 vs 70 vs 40).

Do we think the reputation difference between Harvard and UCSF/Hopkins is the same as the difference between UCSF or Hopkins and University of Cincinatti? :rofl:
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Based on that, HMS is proximately 50% better than UCSF, Columbia and Hopkins.
 
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GoSpursGo said:
I honestly feel like this whole debate about schools at the top of the rankings is sillier than the rankings themselves. Whether a school is no. 1 vs. no. 2 vs. no. 7... it really doesn't matter. It's a good school regardless.

Peeling back the curtain just slightly... NIH funding *is*, to a certain extent, a measure of an institution's standing within the research community. NIH grants are not reviewed by some small cabal of old white guys reviewing grants in Bethesda. Rather there is something called an "NIH study section" populated by leaders in the field across the country who reviews grants on behalf of the NIH to make funding decisions. A massive part of reviewing the grants is a examining the research environment, and for better or worse when someone sees "HMS" (or any institution affiliated with them, or "Hopkins," or "Penn," or "name your other ivory tower" institution) they immediately get the benefit of the doubt because of reputation. That leads to this lovely self-perpetuating machine where the ivory towers' reputations beget continued research funding begets maintaining their reputations... ad infinitum. But ultimately, with the exception of ridiculous stretches like including funding for a freezer in these calculations, NIH funding is to a certain extent tied to an institution's standing within the research community.

Realistically speaking, you will get good medical education at any US MD school. This question of whether "research environment" is an important measure for prospective medical students is a never-ending debate. I tend to land on the opinion, "Yes, it matters, but not as much as pre-meds think it does." Specifically, splitting hairs over a trivial number of spots is silly--there is probably a difference in reputation between the no. 10 school and the no. 85 school, while there is NOT a difference between the no. 23 school and the no. 31 school. Also reputation is meaningless if you don't make use of it to actually do the kind of research that can enhance your residency applications.
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Agreed that NIH funding is relevant, but it's just highly inadequate as the sole quantitative means of assessing research. I've addressed this in the past. Another glaring issue is type of funding. NYU and Duke both have MASSIVE NIH grants for COVID clinical research projects, which has very little bearing on biomedical research productivity or research opportunities for students. This is also part of how Mayo has ranked so well in recent years.

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USNWR Best Med Schools 2022

the list is updated. disclaimer: rankings are for entertainment purposes only. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/research-rankings
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EDIT: We also just cannot ignore the fact that 60% of the "research" rankings has literally nothing to do with research. At some point, we've gotta start being honest about how useless this ranking is lol
 
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srirachamayonnaise said:
Why are there two UCLA’s? This ranking is boring when the king can never be unseated due to funny way of accounting for what is considered HMS lol.
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What do you mean two UCLA's? I only see one, and it's ranked #19.
 
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What cracks me up is that the promo material shows photos of the schools' main campuses.... which, as in the case of Cornell and Northwestern, are miles away from NYC and Chicago..
 
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I'mInDer! said:
Agreed that NIH funding is relevant, but it's just highly inadequate as the sole quantitative means of assessing research. I've addressed this in the past. Another glaring issue is type of funding. NYU and Duke both have MASSIVE NIH grants for COVID clinical research projects, which has very little bearing on biomedical research productivity or research opportunities for students. This is also part of how Mayo has ranked so well in recent years.

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USNWR Best Med Schools 2022

the list is updated. disclaimer: rankings are for entertainment purposes only. https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/research-rankings
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EDIT: We also just cannot ignore the fact that 60% of the "research" rankings has literally nothing to do with research. At some point, we've gotta start being honest about how useless this ranking is lol
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Sure. But as a snapshot of "how is this institution regarded in the research community," it's at least a semi-useful barometer. And you're highlighting two "top 10" schools, which sort of proves my point--if we decided to exclude a specific COVID grant just because we don't think it's relevant, NYU is maybe, what, no. 9 vs. no. 2? Either way it's a highly regarded institution, and the point is to measure a school's "reputation" rather than the actual opportunities for students (if that's important to you and a potential application to a competitive specialty). So I would make note of large gaps in ranking, but when schools are ranked closely I wouldn't use these rankings to split hairs.
 
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I think Wedgedawg probably had it best when he separated med schools into tiers. I wish he would update the WARS system to represent the inflation of scores and ECs, as that was much more useful.

Spectar said:
How is this a surprise lol Sinai is a good school
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Sinai doesn't really seem to have that many highly ranked residencies like the way UMich is #1 in surgery, Cornell #1 in ortho, etc. I don't know THAT much about the school though, so could be wrong.
 
GoSpursGo said:
Sure. But as a snapshot of "how is this institution regarded in the research community," it's at least a semi-useful barometer. And you're highlighting two "top 10" schools, which sort of proves my point--if we decided to exclude a specific COVID grant just because we don't think it's relevant, NYU is maybe, what, no. 9 vs. no. 2? Either way it's a highly regarded institution, and the point is to measure a school's "reputation" rather than the actual opportunities for students (if that's important to you and a potential application to a competitive specialty). So I would make note of large gaps in ranking, but when schools are ranked closely I wouldn't use these rankings to split hairs.
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To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with this. I think within clusters of 20-30 schools, the main decisions should be based on student desires/preferences (financial aid, location, curriculum, proximity to support system, etc.). Was just highlighting the flaws in the rankings.
 
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I'll only say this once to all the pre-meds out there. These med school rankings should be viewed as a very loose grouping into tiers that you can then use to decide in terms of school reputation and prestige. What matters for you as a medical student and future resident isn't this ranking. What matters is the strength of the school in putting people into the specialty you want to go into. Now, if you don't know what you want to go into, then neither these rankings nor school reputation matter much to you. But if you have some inkling that you want to go into something at least moderately competitive, you want to start looking beyond school rankings and at where schools have placed people in your desired specialty. You should be looking at match lists over the last 5-10 years to get a sense of where people are going within your desired specialty. This is a good indicator for the reputation of the school in that specialty.
 
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KnightDoc said:
Shocking! A school gaming a ranking system. I wonder why no one ever tried that before? Next you are going to tell us that there is gambling in this establishment! :laugh:
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Perhaps I am naive or clueless but prior to this news I was inclined to think of 'gaming a ranking system' as referring to things like prioritizing stats in applicants and efforts to make ranking organizations adjust algorithm weightings in ways that would favor particular schools. I was not aware that schools just straight up lied and manufactured the numerical inputs that they provided to the ranking formulas. The former is shady. The latter is fraud.
 
carbonylcarbon said:
Perhaps I am naive or clueless but prior to this news I was inclined to think of 'gaming a ranking system' as referring to things like prioritizing stats in applicants and efforts to make ranking organizations adjust algorithm weightings in ways that would favor particular schools. I was not aware that schools just straight up lied and manufactured the numerical inputs that they provided to the ranking formulas. The former is shady. The latter is fraud.
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It has actually happened numerous times in a variety of fields. USC completely pulled out of the education school rankings because their numbers had been fudged for so long that the provost asked US News to just stop including them entirely for the time being.

I would not be surprised if this were also the case with some medical schools too. It's unfortunate, but naive premeds and their parents aren't the only ones strongly influenced by rankings....many donors and patients are too. Having "Top X Ranked Medical School/Hospital" broadcasted everywhere influences revenue generation via patients and donors.
 
carbonylcarbon said:
Perhaps I am naive or clueless but prior to this news I was inclined to think of 'gaming a ranking system' as referring to things like prioritizing stats in applicants and efforts to make ranking organizations adjust algorithm weightings in ways that would favor particular schools. I was not aware that schools just straight up lied and manufactured the numerical inputs that they provided to the ranking formulas. The former is shady. The latter is fraud.
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Tomato tomahto. Schools have been doing this all along, which is one of the knocks on the list. There was a big article somewhere a few years ago detailing how Northeastern manufactured a rise from oblivion to be a top tier school through focusing on metrics US News valued.

By the way, I have no skin in Columbia's game, but the NY Times article referenced in the post @Mr.Smile12 linked detailed at least one way the professor who is all bent out of shape might have an axe to grind.

The main thesis behind the outrage is that Columbia scammed its way from #18 to #2. He doesn't mention that Columbia shot from #18 to #10 in one short year, over 30 freaking years ago, from 1988 to 1989, when US News changed its methodology to be more based on data than reputation.

It has bounced around the top 10 for the last 34 years now, but it's somehow scandalous that it snaked its way into #2 this year, tied with Hahhhvard and MIT. I honestly don't care about Columbia, and don't know whether they committed fraud to get there, but I wouldn't take the word of someone whose whole thesis is based on BS to assume there is fraud, rather than good old fashioned gaming, just because he says so. Let's wait for someone to prosecute Columbia, similar to what happened at Temple's business school, before jumping to that conclusion.
 
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Is Columbia really not that highly respected? I get overtaking Harvard is kinda bull but hasn't Columbia always been a highly respected school? I could easily see it being top 5
 
DZ2106 said:
Is Columbia really not that highly respected? I get overtaking Harvard is kinda bull but hasn't Columbia always been a highly respected school? I could easily see it being top 5
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For med school or undergrad?

If the latter, it’s probably the 5th best Ivy. and that’s not even including Stanford or MIT. I’d say for Ivy only it’s Harvard>Yale>Princeton>Penn>Columbia>Dartmouth>Brown>Cornell

Of course as with med school, there is really no difference in opportunities from any school within the top 15ish and one would have any opportunity they want coming from Columbia. Based on match lists, it actually seems like there is more difference between top 5 med schools vs the next 15 compared to the difference between top 5 colleges and next 15
 
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For consideration:

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US News Best Medical Schools 2023

Believe it or not, most students went because they liked the school and liked the financial aspect of attending. No one thinks in terms of USNWR other than people (with bones to pick) on SDN. Good to know NYU kids are not as delusional as Dean Riviera or whatever his name is lol.
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I'mInDer! said:
For consideration:

forums.studentdoctor.net

US News Best Medical Schools 2023

Believe it or not, most students went because they liked the school and liked the financial aspect of attending. No one thinks in terms of USNWR other than people (with bones to pick) on SDN. Good to know NYU kids are not as delusional as Dean Riviera or whatever his name is lol.
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my favorite thing about SDN is watching people fight over NYU like its the most important and outrageous issue in the world
 
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My post wasn't about NYU...? lol

To be clear, I'm referring to my thoughts on PD ratings. I have no hate for NYU haha
 
I'mInDer! said:
My post wasn't about NYU...? lol

To be clear, I'm referring to my thoughts on PD ratings. I have no hate for NYU haha
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My only thoughts about the PD rankings is they're the best we have. Yes there are lots of issues with them, mostly the response rate, but I think they most closely reflect what people want to get out of these rankings: how well am I set up to match where I want to match if I go to X school? Not that I think they should be used in any way to choose schools, but the tiers that come out of the PD rankings are probably more accurate than the tiers that come out of the research listing.

But if I were to invent my own rankings, I would include things like pre-SOAP match rate, % matching to a program they rank in their top 5, % matching into their first-choice specialty, etc. All of these are problematic in their own ways, not to mention you would need buy-in from NMRP to get this data, but then again ranking schools is problematic no matter what.
 
I'mInDer! said:
My post wasn't about NYU...? lol

To be clear, I'm referring to my thoughts on PD ratings. I have no hate for NYU haha
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oh no I didn't mean to imply that YOU were doing this, instead that's what is happening in the thread you shared. I have yet to fully understand the SDN norms about quoting posts lol
 
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iHawk_MD said:
My only thoughts about the PD rankings is they're the best we have. Yes there are lots of issues with them, mostly the response rate, but I think they most closely reflect what people want to get out of these rankings: how well am I set up to match where I want to match if I go to X school? Not that I think they should be used in any way to choose schools, but the tiers that come out of the PD rankings are probably more accurate than the tiers that come out of the research listing.

But if I were to invent my own rankings, I would include things like pre-SOAP match rate, % matching to a program they rank in their top 5, % matching into their first-choice specialty, etc. All of these are problematic in their own ways, not to mention you would need buy-in from NMRP to get this data, but then again ranking schools is problematic no matter what.
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I've heard that, but why do we feel they're better? As medical professionals, we need to be able to critically appraise data and understand that poorly collected data is insufficient to make any conclusions about. If there was like an 80% response rate for peers/PDs, I'd definitely take it seriously. But these response rates are abysmal lol.

Imagine if you're in a class of 100 people and they sent a survey about the best cars. 85% of the class does not care enough about the survey to rate cars (or don't feel like they know enough about cars aside from the very few they are very familiar with), but the 15% that do have VERY strong opinions about cars and want their faves to be rated highly. You'd probably say "this is extremely biased and in no way reflects the majority of the class' views on cars".

I think the way you proposed is actually quite useful. Even though data always have to be analyzed within context, at least that data would worth analyzing. Idk, I just feel like all of this stuff is really harming medical education and potentially hurting students who depend on it when choosing schools.
 
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beepbeep197 said:
oh no I didn't mean to imply that YOU were doing this, instead that's what is happening in the thread you shared. I have yet to fully understand the SDN norms about quoting posts lol
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Fair enough lol, but yes the NYU hate is really funny. Everybody is so angry at them, but most "top" schools have taken advantage of USNWR ranking metrics.
 
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I'mInDer! said:
Fair enough lol, but yes the NYU hate is really funny. Everybody is so angry at them, but most "top" schools have taken advantage of USNWR ranking metrics.
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I'm just sitting here on the WL eating popcorn and ignoring every condiment that tells me I shouldn't be excited about any potential opportunity go to there lol
 
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beepbeep197 said:
I'm just sitting here on the WL eating popcorn and ignoring every condiment that tells me I shouldn't be excited about any potential opportunity go to there lol
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Good luck, I hope you get in!!!
 
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LizzyM said:
A student who depend on USNews when choosing schools is a fool who will get what they deserve.
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That's kinda harsh lol. I think many people are seeking ways to maximize prestige, but others genuinely believe USNWR is a valid means of assessing medical education. And a lot of these students also don't a close enough relationship with anybody in medicine to tell them otherwise.
 
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