USNWR Best Med Schools 2023

[deleted1065184]

That is pretty insightful thank you. If PartnersHealthCare ever cut ties with Harvard then Harvard med would be hosed. Im curious why doesnt research money from Fred Hutch get counted towards UW by US News. Dont they have a similar partnership to that of Harvard and partnershealthcare?

I've wondered this too, actually...interestingly, USNWR does include it here: https://premium.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/most-research-money-rankings

Honestly, part of why I don't take them seriously is because even if there were a form of funding (and institution combination) that everybody could agree is the best to use for this purpose, USNWR is not transparent at all about where/how they get their individual numbers.

I follow several medical schools on LinkedIn and they often post articles about their institutional funding, and their numbers virtually never match USNWR's lol. It's because you can look at numbers based on fiscal year, calendar year, school year...you can look at NIH only, all federal grants (including NIH), federal grants + institional funding, federal grants + institional funding + private grants, etc.

Ultimately, it's all much more than any medical student should be worrying about, which is why trying to make granular distinctions between the top 20-40 most well-funded schools is futile and should not be something premeds should worry about. Nobody will ever convince me the funding difference between UCSF and Michigan will ever matter to any medical student lol

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[deleted1065184]

Where's Princeton Medical School? I feel cheated!

Everybody know PMS is #1!

 

[efle]

I can tell you the year Hopkins dropped to #7 it was because they hadn't cooked the books quite right for the new methodology updates about non NIH finding. They immediately knew what to change to include more of their funds and go back up to 3rd the next year, which they did. It's all games at this point.

I think Harvard benefits from being strong on average across all divisions - college, business, law, med, many STEM PhDs. They're the biggest overall institution and very very old so they're the default example of a famous school for laypeople.

For each individual field though, they're far from unrivaled. Princeton or Stanford for college, Hopkins med, Yale law, Wharton business, MIT and Stanford again for compsci, engineering, many other STEM grad schooling. Maybe it's because I'm from out west but I never understood the view that Harvard is #1 for everyone all the time.

 

[inoffensivepersona]

Where's Princeton Medical School? I feel cheated!

Were you responding to me? I was comparing Princeton to Harvard College, not HMS.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

The point is that partners will never cut ties with Harvard. It gets way too much out of the relationship. HMS has a better chance of dissolving than partners cutting their affiliations

 

[deleted1065184]

I can tell you the year Hopkins dropped to #7 it was because they hadn't cooked the books quite right for the new methodology updates about non NIH finding. They immediately knew what to change to include more of their funds and go back up to 3rd the next year, which they did. It's all games at this point.

I think Harvard benefits from being strong on average across all divisions - college, business, law, med, many STEM PhDs. They're the biggest overall institution and very very old so they're the default example of a famous school for laypeople.

For each individual field though, they're far from unrivaled. Princeton or Stanford for college, Hopkins med, Yale law, Wharton business, MIT and Stanford again for compsci, engineering, many other STEM grad schooling. Maybe it's because I'm from out west but I never understood the view that Harvard is #1 for everyone all the time.

I don't think it's likely that they messed up the actual calculations (think that may just be your bias right there 😉). There are just so any ways to calculate funding that they likely chose a way that ended up pushing many big names down the list. And I wouldn't be surprised if they made another change the following year to address the major backlash that they received from numerous big name schools.

But I do agree that Harvard, although strong in most areas, is not without peers in any single area. The entire "T20" are medical peers to Harvard, and HMS does not offer better clinical training, research opportunities, or resources than those schools.

But the issue is that Harvard's name transcends its academic prowess (which is already exceptional)....the combination of its age (which Stanford lacks), size/alumni pool (which dwarfs Princeton and Yale), and maintenance of extreme selectivity the entire time (unlike Rutgers and College of William and Mary) has allowed it to create a mythos about itself. And that mythos means that most premeds will choose it over every other medical school, even if there are much better financial or life options at peer institutions.

 

[deleted1065184]

The point is that partners will never cut ties with Harvard. It gets way too much out of the relationship. HMS has a better chance of dissolving than partners cutting their affiliations

This is true. Harvard is much older than all of its affiliate institutions, and their global name has certainly benefitted from their continuous association with Harvard's name. Even now, they get way too much out of the partnership to leave it. If Harvard wanted, they could create their own hospital and it'd quickly gain prominence and probably begin competing with its affiliates.

But it's not unheard of for medical centers to cut ties with prestigious medical schools. Houston Methodist (arguably best hospital in Texas) and Baylor broke their affiliations back in like '04. This ended up hurting both parties and now Houston Methodist is affiliated with Cornell. Anything is possible lol.

If a school can own its own teaching hospital(s) like Penn, Hopkins, or Duke, that's really ideal. Next best is owned by the healthcare org, like Mayo. But schools like WashU, Columbia, and Cornell are always having to renegotiate terms of affiliation, which can be a pain.

 

[efle]

I don't think it's likely that they messed up the actual calculations (think that may just be your bias right there 😉). There are just so any ways to calculate funding that they likely chose a way that ended up pushing many big names down the list.

The change they made in 2021 was that non-NIH funding would now also be included. This isn't my personal take, immediately after the #7 rank came out there was word circulating that not enough of funding had been included as non-NIH med school funds. Far more money was now going to be listed as non-NIH med funding, so the rank drop would disappear the next year, and lo and behold there were no 2022 changes to the methodology yet they did go back to #3. Was pretty eye opening how much everyone freaked out about the drop (first time ever outside the top 3 apparently) and how obvious it was that playing the accounting game right was the real driver of the ranks.

But I do agree that Harvard, although strong in most areas, is not without peers in any single area. The entire "T20" are medical peers to Harvard, and HMS does not offer better clinical training, research opportunities, or resources than those schools.

Agree there is just as much med student research available at #20. But I will say the foot in the door for home match to Partners/Hopkins/UCSF residencies can be some value added that a place like U Chicago or UCSD can't quite match.

 

[deleted1065184]

The change they made in 2021 was that non-NIH funding would now also be included. This isn't my personal take, immediately after the #7 rank came out there was word circulating that not enough of funding had been included as non-NIH med school funds. Far more money was now going to be listed as non-NIH med funding, so the rank drop would disappear the next year, and lo and behold there were no 2022 changes to the methodology yet they did go back to #3. Was pretty eye opening how much everyone freaked out about the drop (first time ever outside the top 3 apparently) and how obvious it was that playing the accounting game right was the real driver of the ranks.

The issue here is that you're basing it on rumors that there was an issue. What I'm saying is it's more likely that it was a choice. I'm sure they played around with numerous ways to calculate this before they came up with what they chose, and I'm sure they also knew it'd cause the backlash it did (all publicity is good publicity, after all) lol. You could calculate funding in accurate ways that'd completely jumble up the rankings, and you could change it every single year.

Agree there is just as much med student research available at #20. But I will say the foot in the door for home match to Partners/Hopkins/UCSF residencies can be some value added that a place like U Chicago or UCSD can't quite match.

And I def agree here, as long as it's the goal of students at those schools to match there. But plenty of students don't want to match at the owned/affiliated hospitals and just want the med school name. I have no desire to live in any of those cities long term (or for residency), so I'd choose a school Vandy over them and there'd be no value added to me.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

The issue here is that you're basing it on rumors that there was an issue. What I'm saying is it's more likely that it was a choice. I'm sure they played around with numerous ways to calculate this before they came up with what they chose, and I'm sure they also knew it'd cause the backlash it did (all publicity is good publicity, after all) lol. You could calculate funding in accurate ways that'd completely jumble up the rankings, and you could change it every single year.



And I def agree here, as long as it's the goal of students at those schools to match there. But plenty of students don't want to match at the owned/affiliated hospitals and just want the med school name. I have no desire to live in any of those cities long term (or for residency), so I'd choose a school Vandy over them and there'd be no value added to me.

Just want to add home programs are not the only advantage. At those brand name places, you are more likely to find some influential people who will bat for you. A big name LOR makes a huge difference in competitive specialties.

 

[deleted1065184]

Just want to add home programs are not the only advantage. At those brand name places, you are more likely to find some influential people who will bat for you. A big name LOR makes a huge difference in competitive specialties.

Not nearly as big of an advantage as folks make it seem. I've posted about this before and shown residency profiles in competitive specialties at different programs. You'd think they're 90% T10 the way y'all talk about them on here, but they're usually pretty diverse (wrt schools represented).

In reality, you're not getting an advantage from Harvard compared to Vanderbilt or Case Western when it comes to matching competitive specialties. I'm happy to be proven wrong if you have the data to support it, though. We could go back and forth all day with anecdotes to support our positions on this, but the small but of data we do have (match lists, which have their own difficulties with interpretation), support my point.

Folks tend to forget that there are competitive specialties at non-prestigious hospitals/institutions all over the country lol

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

This is true. Harvard is much older than all of its affiliate institutions, and their global name has certainly benefitted from their continuous association with Harvard's name. Even now, they get way too much out of the partnership to leave it. If Harvard wanted, they could create their own hospital and it'd quickly gain prominence and probably begin competing with its affiliates.

But it's not unheard of for medical centers to cut ties with prestigious medical schools. Houston Methodist (arguably best hospital in Texas) and Baylor broke their affiliations back in like '04. This ended up hurting both parties and now Houston Methodist is affiliated with Cornell. Anything is possible lol.

If a school can own its own teaching hospital(s) like Penn, Hopkins, or Duke, that's really ideal. Next best is owned by the healthcare org, like Mayo. But schools like WashU, Columbia, and Cornell are always having to renegotiate terms of affiliation, which can be a pain.

Wow that’s interesting, so are residencies at Houston Methodist really Cornell residencies?

 

[deleted1065184]

Wow that’s interesting, so are residencies at Houston Methodist really Cornell residencies?

Not sure tbh, great question

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Not nearly as big of an advantage as folks make it seem. I've posted about this before and shown residency profiles in competitive specialties at different programs. You'd think they're 90% T10 the way y'all talk about them on here, but they're usually pretty diverse (wrt schools represented).

In reality, you're not getting an advantage from Harvard compared to Vanderbilt or Case Western when it comes to matching competitive specialties. I'm happy to be proven wrong if you have the data to support it, though. We could go back and forth all day with anecdotes to support our positions on this, but the small but of data we do have (match lists, which have their own difficulties with interpretation), support my point.

Folks tend to forget that there are competitive specialties at non-prestigious hospitals/institutions all over the country lol

well, just by looking at the match list, you can't tell how much effort each student put in to get there. It may well be that at t5's, students can coast a bit to match still competitively. I don't know. It's too subjective. Where I am (t5), I think if one wants a competitive specialty, one still has to work quite hard to get it. The school name does lend some help but only so much.

 

[deleted1065184]

well, just by looking at the match list, you can't tell how much effort each student put in to get there. It may well be that at t5's, students can coast a bit to match still competitively. I don't know. It's too subjective. Where I am (t5), I think if one wants a competitive specialty, one still has to work quite hard to get it. The school name does lend some help but only so much.

And that's my point right there....literally all speculation lol. We can look at match lists, resident profiles, and anecdotes to conclude that programs tend to have a preference for their students over others. But we have no evidence that a "T5" school gives you a better shot at a competitive residency than a "T30" school.

We have an idea about what program directors are looking for, but all of those things are available in abundance at the Case, and I think it's reflected in their match list. Nobody ever seems to be able to provide evidence of these huge benefits that make paying full cost at Hopkins worth more than a full ride at UTSW (or insert whatever great school without Hopkins-level prestige), yet half the people on any given X vs. Y thread swear by it.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

And that's my point right there....literally all speculation lol. We can look at match lists, resident profiles, and anecdotes to conclude that programs tend to have a preference for their students over others. But we have no evidence that a "T5" school gives you a better shot at a competitive residency than a "T30" school.

We have an idea about what program directors are looking for, but all of those things are available in abundance at the Case, and I think it's reflected in their match list. Nobody ever seems to be able to provide evidence of these huge benefits that make paying full cost at Hopkins worth more than a full ride at UTSW (or insert whatever great school without Hopkins-level prestige), yet half the people on any given X vs. Y thread swear by it.

It's mostly ego and faith. I am sure you can relate to that. Once you are in a prestigious school, it just stops mattering to you. The rush only comes at the moment you get in. Quite short-lived but can be quite addictive.

 

[deleted1065184]

It's mostly ego and faith. I am sure you can relate to that. Once you are in a prestigious school, it just stops mattering to you. The rush only comes at the moment you get in. Quite short-lived but can be quite addictive.

Sure, and I just want people to be honest about that instead of acting like logic is the driving factor, or diminishing what can be accomplished at other schools. If you wanna go to the most prestigious school bc of name, even if it'll cost hella money, then do it with your chest lol

 

[dmblah]

Wow that’s interesting, so are residencies at Houston Methodist really Cornell residencies?

During second look they said the only real advantage was that you can do electives/selectives there during M3 and M4 years and Cornell will provide you with free housing and transportation while you're in Houston, so theres a good number of students who elect to do that

 

[deleted1065184]

During second look they said the only real advantage was that you can do electives/selectives there during M3 and M4 years and Cornell will provide you with free housing and transportation while you're in Houston, so theres a good number of students who elect to do that

That's actually a pretty nice advantage if you wanna do med school in NYC and residency in Houston!

 

[Rajaredhilu]

Wow that’s interesting, so are residencies at Houston Methodist really Cornell residencies?

You can look at houston methodists major affiliations and their featured residencies here:

https://freida.ama-assn.org/institution/480172

Some of the community based-university affiliated and maybe even the University based programs that they offer are with cornell. It is my understanding that a community based-university affiliated program offers a few more resources in terms of collaboration with faculty at the affiliated university (in comparison to solely a community based program). However, if you really want the resources, research, and faculty that comes with Cornell, a university based residency at NYP-cornell would be the better option.