Navy USS Theodore Roosevelt COVID-19 crisis

[d2305]

Crozier may be reinstated. That would be interesting.

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[Gastrapathy]

Crozier may be reinstated. That would be interesting.

I thought his removal was rash but I’m pretty sure this statement was just to try to make the subsequent investigation appear to be more than CYA when they uphold his relief. I mean it’s hard to see how he could work effectively with the admirals he called out

 

[Monty Python]

Crozier may be reinstated. That would be interesting.

Has this ever happened since the Navy transitioned from sail to steam power?

If it actually happened, one might wonder if it was done charitably because Big Navy felt it was the right thing to do ... or if it was done simply to take potential spotlights off Crozier’s former uniformed chain of command and get the issue out of the public eye. If so Crozier could be right back in a very uncomfortable position with the same dysfunctional CoC.

Personal bet: he gets a faculty position at his alma mater USNA teaching Leadership and Ethics. Or perhaps a leadership role at the NAS Pcola aviation schoolhouse.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Has this ever happened since the Navy transitioned from sail to steam power?

If it actually happened, one might wonder if it was done charitably because Big Navy felt it was the right thing to do ... or if it was done simply to take potential spotlights off Crozier’s former uniformed chain of command and get the issue out of the public eye. If so Crozier could be right back in a very uncomfortable position with the same dysfunctional CoC.

Personal bet: he gets a faculty position at his alma mater USNA teaching Leadership and Ethics. Or perhaps a leadership role at the NAS Pcola aviation schoolhouse.

Agree, and the public drumbeat for accountability of that COC is not yet subsiding. There is something unseemly about a CO being relieved, for reasons that have seemed dubious and inconsistent, except that they shone an unfavorable light on what appears to be a Pacific Navy COC unwilling or incapable of decisive action when it comes to protecting sailors except to greenlight the ill-considered decision of the ASECNAV to relieve the CO of command. Bluntly, if that is all these admirals are good for, why do we have them?

There does need to be a credible investigation. People like RADM Stuart Baker and ADM Philip Davidson do not get an automatic pass.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I thought his removal was rash but I’m pretty sure this statement was just to try to make the subsequent investigation appear to be more than CYA when they uphold his relief. I mean it’s hard to see how he could work effectively with the admirals he called out

The person who named those admirals was Modly, not calling them out for deficiency, but naming them in his letter as persons in the NAVY COC with whom he discussed the Theodore Roosevelt events immediately prior to dismissing Captain Crozier. Those names are now a matter of record, although perhaps not in a way then-ASECNAV Modly intended.

 

[Gastrapathy]

You’re right, he didn’t name and shame them directly. But...I think he’s a smart guy and implicit in that letter is that traditional use of the chain of command had failed his sailors. And, there are only a few people between him and the CINC, so...I think it’s fair to assume his relationship with them is less than perfect.

 

[Setih]

Sailor from USS Teddy Roosevelt found unconscious, transferred to intensive care

A sailor from the USS Theodore Roosevelt who had tested positive for coronavirus was admitted to an intensive care unit in Guam Thursday after being found unresponsive, according to a Navy official.

www.cnn.com

Very unfortunate

 

[Baron Samedi]

USS Theodore Roosevelt now has 416 coronavirus cases in wake of captain's firing

The ship's former captain alerted higher ups when there were only dozens of cases onboard.

www.cbsnews.com

416 confirmed cases

 

[pgg]

Crozier may be reinstated. That would be interesting.

I'm not sure I see a reasonable path to that. That chain of command with those specific individuals is irrevocably broken now. They can't just be put back together with an expectation that a healthy working relationship will exist. The best thing for the ship at this point is new leadership. Probably the best thing here is for the Navy to just cut its losses and move ahead.

Generally speaking, the only thing worse than a bad decision is no decision, or a reversed decision. Indecisiveness or wishiwashiness are toxic in their own right.

Stepping in dog poo is an unpleasant experience full of regret, but that doesn't mean trying to put it back in the dog is a good idea.

 

[Apollyon]

The best thing for the ship at this point is new leadership. Probably the best thing here is for the Navy to just cut its losses and move ahead.

But isn't the Navy bringing back the former CO that CAPT Crozier relieved? However, beyond the article I read, I haven't followed any more. I don't know if this will be PCS or TAD.

 

[Monty Python]

But isn't the Navy bringing back the former CO that CAPT Crozier relieved? However, beyond the article I read, I haven't followed any more. I don't know if this will be PCS or TAD.

I’ve seen immediate former COs brought back, but usually just as an interim until a new permanent CO is assigned.

The current acting CO was Crozier’s XO. He’s probably too junior and/or inexperienced to fleet up as permanent CO.

The usual career progression is carrier XO —> oiler/replenishment ship CO or amphibious command ship CO —> carrier CO.

 

[d2305]

They always command a deep draft ship before a carrier. Or at least they used to. Since all the carriers are nuke now, they have to go to nuke school too.

 

[DrMetal]

Sailor from Theodore Roosevelt has died of COVID-19 complications

Sad. I wonder what happened. It's not the type of virus that puts young people into immediate cardiac arrest....but who knows.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

COVID-19: Attacks the 1-Beta Chain of Hemoglobin and Captures the Porphyrin to Inhibit Human Heme Metabolism

The novel coronavirus pneumonia (COVID-19) is an infectious acute respiratory infection caused by the novel coronavirus. The virus is a positive-strand RNA virus with high homology to bat coronavirus. In this study, conserved domain analysis, homology modeling, and molecular docking were used to...

chemrxiv.org

I have seen other references to the peculiar toxicity effect on hemoglobin by the COVID-19 agent. Some have speculated this is why the radiographic presentations are nearly always bilateral and relatively uniform, not as would be the case in pneumonia, and why there is multiple end-organ failure, not dissimilar to other hemoglobin poisons.

 

[Monty Python]

FWIW, a related perspective by a US physician/PhD whose research and dissertation was mammalian hemoglobin physiology.

 

[DrMetal]

FWIW, a related perspective by a US physician/PhD.

Yeah. If you could prove at least in vitro and get the crystal structures to prove it, I'd be more likely to believe it.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

FWIW, a related perspective by a US physician/PhD whose research and dissertation was mammalian hemoglobin physiology.

His article is a fairly complete fisking of a non-medical blog post that apparently advocates use of hydroxychloroquine, based not on study data but on speculation.

 

[Monty Python]

Navy should evacuate, quarantine crews from all ships, former SECNAV says

Mabus said that the Navy should follow the suggestions of recently-fired commanding officer, Capt. Brett Crozier.

www.navytimes.com

 

[orbitsurgMD]

They really need to put that chain of command in the Pacific Fleet under a microscope. They dragged their feet for political reasons, along with A-SECNAV Modly, fortunately departed, so as not to create alarm or upset a president who was in grave denial himself. There needs to be significant accountability from them for this. This was utter failure to grasp the larger problem and focusing on trivia--the use of an email by the CO frustrated by the lack of action from the chain--at the expense of the ship's crew. Then it is reported the execrable Admiral Robert P. Burke chastised the Theodore Roosevelt SMO for "poor leadership." Apparently telling truth to your commanding officer when the news isn't welcome to his timorous chain of command is now poor leadership. Lying and concealment, false statements, denials are better. I get enough of that off the WHPO daily pressers with you-know-who presiding.

Admiral Burke should be retired immediately following his reprimand. His own leadership portfolio is not up to his task. Beyond disgraceful.

Four more now in hospital, one dead, over six hundred infected. And it isn't over yet.

 

[d2305]

No ship is going to a liberty port for a while, and they will be on a fast cruise a couple of weeks before getting underway.

 

[pgg]

It looks like the outbreak may not have been related to the port call in Vietnam:

According to a Wall Street Journal report Wednesday, Navy officials now believe the outbreak on the carrier Roosevelt was initiated by the ship’s routine flight operations.

Numerous carrier on-board delivery flights originating in Japan, the Philippines, and Vietnam occurred in the days following the ship’s departure from Da Nang, the report said.

COVID-19 outbreak on Theodore Roosevelt sparked by flight crews, officials believe

The first eight sailors to test positive did so over the course of March 24 and 25, more than two weeks — a period in excess of the virus’ incubation periods

www.navytimes.com

It goes on to say that 30 crew members stayed in a hotel in Vietnam where other guests eventually tested positive, but none of those 30 became cases.

 

[armytrainingsir]

Of course it wasn’t the port call. Flag officers would come under scrutiny if that were the case.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Of course it wasn’t the port call. Flag officers would come under scrutiny if that were the case.

Not proof either way. Asymptomatic or minimally-symptomatic shedders may not have presented themselves for care unless ordered tested, but others to whom they transmitted infection might have. The earliest cases were in the reactor department, not air ops or COD. It could still have come aboard while in port in Vietnam or later and in fact both could be possible. The timing does not eliminate the possibility the virus was introduced from the Vietnam port call.

 

[notdeadyet]

Not proof either way. Asymptomatic or minimally-symptomatic shedders may not have presented themselves for care unless ordered tested, but others to whom they transmitted infection might have. The earliest cases were in the reactor department, not air ops or COD. It could still have come aboard while in port in Vietnam or later and in fact both could be possible. The timing does not eliminate the possibility the virus was introduced from the Vietnam port call.

True, but given that Vietnam had only a handful of cases at the time (which was contained and didn’t spread until weeks later with reintroduced virus from Europe), if you had flight crews from Japan or Korea travel (from actual hotspots), I’d call it pretty plausible.

 

[armytrainingsir]

My comment was mostly in jest and ridicule of the lack of accountability that seems to run rampant at the >06 level of this entire debacle.
Not that I'm wrong, just sayin'

 

[Gastrapathy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/how-an-outbreak-on-the-uss-roosevelt-became-a-defining-moment-for-the-us-military/2020/04/16/2735f85c-7f24-11ea-8de7-9fdff6d5d83e_story.html

Modly exaggerated.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/how-an-outbreak-on-the-uss-roosevelt-became-a-defining-moment-for-the-us-military/2020/04/16/2735f85c-7f24-11ea-8de7-9fdff6d5d83e_story.html

Modly exaggerated.

The reported timeline shows the Theodore Roosevelt leaving Vietnam March 9. The first symptomatic cases presented to ship's medical on March 24. Figuring that most people wait a day or two to see if symptoms improve (if they have mild to moderate symptoms and aren't really sick) that is well within the incubation period.

How extensive and how available was COVID-19 testing in Da Nang prior to the visit?

 

[Monty Python]

Something doesn’t add up. This news article contains Croziers email. I don’t see 30 recipients. In addition I am curious how it got leaked. Either way I think this shows Modly is good riddance.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/how-an-outbreak-on-the-uss-roosevelt-became-a-defining-moment-for-the-us-military/2020/04/16/2735f85c-7f24-11ea-8de7-9fdff6d5d83e_story.html

 

[deleted314957]

Sailor from Theodore Roosevelt has died of COVID-19 complications

Sad. I wonder what happened. It's not the type of virus that puts young people into immediate cardiac arrest....but who knows.

It is associated with cardiomyopathy.

 

[DrMetal]

It is associated with cardiomyopathy.

It is indeed. I saw a young F COVID positive whose EF dropped to 5%, recovered eventually. I don't know if that's what happened in the case of this sailor, but very plausible.

 

[TheEarDoc]

It is indeed. I saw a young F COVID positive whose EF dropped to 5%, recovered eventually. I don't know if that's what happened in the case of this sailor, but very plausible.

That is insane!!! Full recovery of EF or permanent damage or too early to tell?

 

[DrMetal]

That is insane!!! Full recovery of EF or permanent damage or too early to tell?

Recovered. But would've died if not for a good ICU team. The cardiomyopathy is very real, of course happens with many viruses

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using SDN mobile

 

[TheEarDoc]

Recovered. But would've died if not for a good ICU team. The cardiomyopathy is very real, of course happens with many viruses

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using SDN mobile

I was reading the news article about IA's in young patients even who were asympomatic. Quite surprising.

 

[armytrainingsir]

Wow.

Crozier may be back in command.

Navy recommends reinstating Crozier as captain of USS Theodore Roosevelt: report

The Navy has recommended reinstating Capt. Brett Crozier as commander of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, according to reports, in a move that would be unprecedented.The recommendation was first reporte…

thehill.com

 

[d2305]

I guess he's about recovered now.

 

[deleted480308]

Wow.

Crozier may be back in command.

Navy recommends reinstating Crozier as captain of USS Theodore Roosevelt: report

The Navy has recommended reinstating Capt. Brett Crozier as commander of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, according to reports, in a move that would be unprecedented.The recommendation was first reporte…

thehill.com

I saw that as about the least likely of all possible outcomes

 

[Gastrapathy]

I think this is unprecedented. I know someone who was DFC’d and that was ultimately overturned. It was removed from his record but he certainly didn’t go back. Considering all the news reports about his relationship with RADM Baker “just down the hall”, could be an interesting place.

The leak sure puts SECDEF in a bind.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I saw that as about the least likely of all possible outcomes

I expected this actually. Glad it happened.

 

[DrMetal]

The TR now has over 800 of its crew infected, some with persistently positive testing. It is going to be awhile before it can sail with a healthy crew, everyone testing negative. This entire evolution is unprecedented and will be a case for study by ops students , leadership students. and public health students. Reinstating him with RADM Baker aboard is problematic, who is not likely enjoying a reputation as an advocate for the crew or as a commander with an appreciation for the gravity of the situation the TR was facing (or for the public blowback to the Navy for foot-dragging). For that matter, other elements in the Pacific command chain, ADM Robert P. Burke included have not been acquitted of their shameful contributions to the dog-piling. It was the CoC that made this the mess it became and since it wasn't something they could wash away with a low-on-the-chain command dismissal, they are in reputational damage-control mode. They deserve their headaches, all of them. The fate of toadies.

Man, you got it in for them. Prior boss?

 

[deleted480308]

I expected this actually. Glad it happened.

I actually saw a higher appt by trump as more likely for a PR move

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I actually saw a higher appt by trump as more likely for a PR move

Definitely was possible. But I saw the Modly fiasco as something happening almost as a rogue vendetta against Crozier for daring to make him look bad. The Navy CoC seemed a lot more even tempered and came out as soon as Modly was fired and basically said they can understand why Crozier did what he did. Soon as I saw that I figured he’d be reinstated.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Definitely was possible. But I saw the Modly fiasco as something happening almost as a rogue vendetta against Crozier for daring to make him look bad. The Navy CoC seemed a lot more even tempered and came out as soon as Modly was fired and basically said they can understand why Crozier did what he did. Soon as I saw that I figured he’d be reinstated.

You give them more credit than they are due. Modly was craven, but he was not getting any pushback from senior brass. Gilday was reported to have recommended completing an investigation before the dismissal, but there seemed to be no pressure behind that recommendation. ADM Burke's only contribution it appears was to accuse the SMO of the T.R. of poor leadership, an accusation rich in irony from cabal of senior brass whose example of leadership here was nothing short of dismal, cowardly.

And no [to Dr. Metal, above], none of these people have a history with me. They have disgusted me de novo.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You give them more credit than they are due. Modly was craven, but he was not getting any pushback from senior brass. Gilday was reported to have recommended completing an investigation before the dismissal, but there seemed to be no pressure behind that recommendation. ADM Burke's only contribution it appears was to accuse the SMO of the T.R. of poor leadership, an accusation rich in irony from cabal of senior brass whose example of leadership here was nothing short of dismal, cowardly.

And no, none of these people have a history with me. They have disgusted me de novo.

Okay.

 

[Lawpy]

Update:

Navy Won’t Reinstate Captain of USS Theodore Roosevelt

The Navy decided not to return Capt. Brett Crozier to the command of the the USS Theodore Roosevelt, the ship was at the center of the largest coronavirus outbreak to strike the U.S. military.

www.wsj.com

Navy upholds firing of carrier captain who warned of coronavirus

The decision to make Crozier's firing permanent is a reversal from an initial inquiry completed in April, when the leaders recommended reinstating the captain.

www.politico.com

 

[deleted480308]

Update:

Navy Won’t Reinstate Captain of USS Theodore Roosevelt

The Navy decided not to return Capt. Brett Crozier to the command of the the USS Theodore Roosevelt, the ship was at the center of the largest coronavirus outbreak to strike the U.S. military.

www.wsj.com

Navy upholds firing of carrier captain who warned of coronavirus

The decision to make Crozier's firing permanent is a reversal from an initial inquiry completed in April, when the leaders recommended reinstating the captain.

www.politico.com

Seems like a “wait out the anger and then do it anyway” kind of thing

 

[d2305]

The SMO isn't making O6 most likely. Time to play with the People's Liberation Amry's Navy now.

 

[LTMCUSN]

Some interesting stuff about the SMO. Sent a letter to the SG and hundreds of other medical leaders suggesting a worst case of 50 dead and threatening to go to the press if there wasn’t action taken. The letter signed by multiple members of the department but not the nurse due to fears of career consequences.

Did you find this reported anywhere that you could link to? I was looking for an article on it and the only one mentioning the SMO was behind a paywall.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I posted a FOIA version of the investigation that was freely available but it’s been removed, presumably by a mod? or maybe I screwed up editing my post...so I won’t repost it but this is the link to the SECNAV FOIA site:

https://www.secnav.navy.mil/foia/readingroom/HotTopics/TR%20INVESTIGATION/TR%20CI%20Report%20with%20CNO%20Endorsement%20(Redacted%20for%20release).pdf

 

[Gastrapathy]

I would also say that if it’s true, i agree with the nurse that wouldn’t sign it. It sounds like the SMO claimed in the investigation that while he threatened to go to the press in his email to the SG and several hundred other people, he didn’t really mean it and was just trying to get attention. Bold move

 

[chlrbwls]

The SMO isn't making O6 most likely. Time to play with the People's Liberation Amry's Navy now.

As someone that has been personally involved in the TR relief effort, that is an inaccurate statement. SMO is already O6

Also alot of the numbers on this thread is inaccurate too. I wont share them since OPSEC and hipaa but take what you read here with a grain of salt


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