Veterans: Anyone using VA voc rehab?

[MusicDOc124]

So you used voc rehab in undergrad and then went to use vic rehab in med school and got that extended? I have something like 16 months left of the 48. Thanks for the info though!

Yes.

And the other person I’m referring to completed Voc rehab, and then had extensions for other stuff i believe, and then extension to even start and complete med school for all 4 years. My extension was only about 2 years in total.

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[marine12]

Yes.

And the other person I’m referring to completed Voc rehab, and then had extensions for other stuff i believe, and then extension to even start and complete med school for all 4 years. My extension was only about 2 years in total.

Gusss I’ll have to get on my counsler about this and appeal to higher decision making. Cause she shot the idea to **** when I met with her yesterday lol. Basically told me no way it was gonna happen. Basically and education about undergrad was out of the question.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Gusss I’ll have to get on my counsler about this and appeal to higher decision making. Cause she shot the idea to **** when I met with her yesterday lol. Basically told me no way it was gonna happen. Basically and education about undergrad was out of the question.

Appeals take years. You’d almost be better off reapplying. I think that might depend though. Many get denied unfortunately. Those of us who got accepted for the most part had a single steady counselor who was good and cared.

Others should chime in on that though.

 

[marine12]

Appeals take years. You’d almost be better off reapplying. I think that might depend though. Many get denied unfortunately. Those of us who got accepted for the most part had a single steady counselor who was good and cared.

Others should chime in on that though.

Well I’m not above contacting my senators office regarding voc rehab. I’ve done it in the past and I’ll do it again if needed. It gets things fixed and covered pretty quickly when voc rehab says they won’t cover things.

 

[esob]

So you used voc rehab in undergrad and then went to use vic rehab in med school and got that extended? I have something like 16 months left of the 48. Thanks for the info though!

If you are determined to have an SEH (severe employment handicap), the 48 month rule can be extended. Were you determined to have an SEH when you were first approved? Current federal regulations mandate that any veteran determined to have an employment handicap must be subsequently evaluated for an SEH, so they should have determined that when you first signed up.

Personally, I will have used around 120 months of benefits by the time I graduate (switching my plan after dropping out of the program the first time)

 

[BigJohnUSMC]

Gusss I’ll have to get on my counsler about this and appeal to higher decision making. Cause she shot the idea to **** when I met with her yesterday lol. Basically told me no way it was gonna happen. Basically and education about undergrad was out of the question.

I have also (kind of) been approved for medical school. My counselor was awesome, and he handed me over to another counselor who is also very helpful. This is how my IWRP reads:

DOT Code and Title: 079 Medicine and Health
Objective 1: Veteran will complete a Bachelor's Degree in: Biology Pre-Med
Objective 2: Veteran will complete the program of Kaplan MCAT Prep Course
Objective 3: Upon receiving successful score on the MCAT, this plan should be edited to include Medical School. Veteran will have approximately half the required entitlement.

As you can see, Objective 3 is not a guarantee. But, I have been assured it will be hard for VRE to deny the request for extension given my SEH and the 3rd goal. I do plan on fighting it if necessary - going up chain of command all the way to my congressman/woman.

From what I have heard, having an acceptance letter in hand makes it much easier to get it approved. It is also easier to get schooling after undergrad paid for if you do not currently have a bachelor's. Did you already complete your undergraduate studies, or are you currently in the process?

 

[marine12]

If you are determined to have an SEH (severe employment handicap), the 48 month rule can be extended. Were you determined to have an SEH when you were first approved? Current federal regulations mandate that any veteran determined to have an employment handicap must be subsequently evaluated for an SEH, so they should have determined that when you first signed up.

Personally, I will have used around 120 months of benefits by the time I graduate (switching my plan after dropping out of the program the first time)

My new counseler has zero of my original paperwork. It’s all been lost and I don’t even remember if I do or not. I was in the voc rehab office for the first time in three years yesterday. My new counsler has an old transcript and a few papers but that’s it.

 

[marine12]

I have also (kind of) been approved for medical school. My counselor was awesome, and he handed me over to another counselor who is also very helpful. This is how my IWRP reads:

DOT Code and Title: 079 Medicine and Health
Objective 1: Veteran will complete a Bachelor's Degree in: Biology Pre-Med
Objective 2: Veteran will complete the program of Kaplan MCAT Prep Course
Objective 3: Upon receiving successful score on the MCAT, this plan should be edited to include Medical School. Veteran will have approximately half the required entitlement.

As you can see, Objective 3 is not a guarantee. But, I have been assured it will be hard for VRE to deny the request for extension given my SEH and the 3rd goal. I do plan on fighting it if necessary - going up chain of command all the way to my congressman/woman.

From what I have heard, having an acceptance letter in hand makes it much easier to get it approved. It is also easier to get schooling after undergrad paid for if you do not currently have a bachelor's. Did you already complete your undergraduate studies, or are you currently in the process?

Currently in process of undergrad. I have two med school acceptances as we speak though.

 

[BigJohnUSMC]

Currently in process of undergrad. I have two med school acceptances as we speak though.

You need to jump all over this man. Given that you haven't completed undergrad and 2 schools have accepted you, I think your chances of getting this approved are really good. If you don't have an SEH, you can fight that decision but that's whole other can of worms.

As for how to do it, set up a meeting with whoever your current counselor is. Plan out the conversation, and pick out the pieces of the CFR Title 38 and the M28R (Google them). You need to research the hell out of both documents. Bring everything with you, dress for success, and think of every little item and detail they might want to get it approved. If you get a stern no, ask to speak with their supervisor. Take it all the way up if you have to, but you can win.

 

[marine12]

You need to jump all over this man. Given that you haven't completed undergrad and 2 schools have accepted you, I think your chances of getting this approved are really good. If you don't have an SEH, you can fight that decision but that's whole other can of worms.

As for how to do it, set up a meeting with whoever your current counselor is. Plan out the conversation, and pick out the pieces of the CFR Title 38 and the M28R (Google them). You need to research the hell out of both documents. Bring everything with you, dress for success, and think of every little item and detail they might want to get it approved. If you get a stern no, ask to speak with their supervisor. Take it all the way up if you have to, but you can win.

Awesome. Thanks for the information and motivation. I will research these documents. Mid December I will find out if I have an acceptance or not to my top school choice, should I wait until then to push the issue more or start now?

 

[BigJohnUSMC]

Awesome. Thanks for the information and motivation. I will research these documents. Mid December I will find out if I have an acceptance or not to my top school choice, should I wait until then to push the issue more or start now?

I would start now since you don't know how long this will take. Right now, you need VRE to approve medical school. You can always find a reason to change schools later, which is another fight you may or may not win. Shoot me your email in a message and I can get you started on those 2 docs, they are massive and difficult to navigate.

 

[MusicDOc124]

My new counseler has zero of my original paperwork. It’s all been lost and I don’t even remember if I do or not. I was in the voc rehab office for the first time in three years yesterday. My new counsler has an old transcript and a few papers but that’s it.

Military should have taught you to always maintain a copy yourself. They’re supposed to provide a copy, so Do some searching around where you store paperwork and see if you can find it.

Good luck with gettIng Med school approved. Keep us informed and be on the lookout for others in a similar situation who you may be able to help!

 

[BC_89]

Awesome. Thanks for the information and motivation. I will research these documents. Mid December I will find out if I have an acceptance or not to my top school choice, should I wait until then to push the issue more or start now?

I also concur to start now. Think of it as a pending interview. That way, SHOULD you get an acceptance letter, that’s more reason to force your VRC counselor to approve. I don’t know if your close to a VA hospital, but they should have a department specifically geared to obtain all your medical records on a disk and hand it to you. Not saying they don’t have that information already, but if you present the disc with your transcripts, acceptance, any supporting documents highlighting (literally with a highlighter) your condition and entitlement and you push them into what I call a “sincere corner” they’re more than obligated to approve.

I’d love to hear your process and hope you get what you rightfully deserve. Finishing up a medical discharge myself and currently persuing the same goal come August ‘19 for school.

 

[marine12]

I also concur to start now. Think of it as a pending interview. That way, SHOULD you get an acceptance letter, that’s more reason to force your VRC counselor to approve. I don’t know if your close to a VA hospital, but they should have a department specifically geared to obtain all your medical records on a disk and hand it to you. Not saying they don’t have that information already, but if you present the disc with your transcripts, acceptance, any supporting documents highlighting (literally with a highlighter), and you push them into what I call a “sincere corner” they’re more than obligated to approve.

I’d love to hear your process and hope you get what you rightfully deserve. Finishing up a medical discharge myself and currently persuing the same goal come August ‘19 for school.

I actually already have two med school acceptances. I’m already using voc rehab for undergrad and have asked my counsler about further education and she shot it down. Apparently, as other users have said here, I need to get all the applicable regulations down and present my case and then appeal higher if needed.

 

[BC_89]

I actually already have two med school acceptances. I’m already using voc rehab for undergrad and have asked my counsler about further education and she shot it down. Apparently, as other users have said here, I need to get all the applicable regulations down and present my case and then appeal higher if needed.

After reading the past posts I see now your position. I just left my meeting with my VRC counselor and she also was very, very, (did I say very?) very admit to shoot down the idea of me qualifying for Voc-Rehab for my pharmacy program since I already have my bachelors. Of course, I never used any benefits for undergrad but as others said, appealing may take longer than actually reapplying. I'm interested though to hear of any updates as I too (albeit different circumstances) will not take no for an answer...

 

[BigJohnUSMC]

I actually already have two med school acceptances. I’m already using voc rehab for undergrad and have asked my counsler about further education and she shot it down. Apparently, as other users have said here, I need to get all the applicable regulations down and present my case and then appeal higher if needed.

Just to echo advice I have heard from others in your shoes - never have your case closed and then reapply, and do not appeal unless you 100% have to. Take the fight to supervisors first, and escalate as needed. This is different from appealing.

 

[marine12]

After reading the past posts I see now your position. I just left my meeting with my VRC counselor and she also was very, very, (did I say very?) very admit to shoot down the idea of me qualifying for Voc-Rehab for my pharmacy program since I already have my bachelors. Of course, I never used any benefits for undergrad but as others said, appealing may take longer than actually reapplying. I'm interested though to hear of any updates as I too (albeit different circumstances) will not take no for an answer...

Yeah, I got some regulations to comb through the weekend and see how I can build my case. Also contacting your senators office can get stuff done even when supervisors at voc rehab won’t help. I’ve had so many issues that’s were ongoing for months. One call to my senators office and things were fixed within a week.

 

[marine12]

Just to echo advice I have heard from others in your shoes - never have your case closed and then reapply, and do not appeal unless you 100% have to. Take the fight to supervisors first, and escalate as needed. This is different from appealing.

I meant appeal as in talk to higher ups or congressmen or senators, not as in the formal appeals process. I agree that takes ages. Took 1.5 years for my appeal for a higher disability rating to get approved.

 

[esob]

I agree with what has been said. 1st step is to go above the VRC's head to their supervisor (done in a professional, courteous manner). Appealing is a long and arduous process that you want to avoid at all costs. I do think it could be helpful to get your congressman involved. I have never had to for voc rehab but I have twice had to get my congressman involved for VA healthcare and in both cases, it was resolved immediately.

 

[marine12]

I agree with what has been said. 1st step is to go above the VRC's head to their supervisor (done in a professional, courteous manner). Appealing is a long and arduous process that you want to avoid at all costs. I do think it could be helpful to get your congressman involved. I have never had to for voc rehab but I have twice had to get my congressman involved for VA healthcare and in both cases, it was resolved immediately.

Yup, this is gonna be my process. BigjohnUSMC was nice enough to send me the regulations. So I will read through that, get my argument down and they proceed with my VRC, then supervisor and so on.

 

[BC_89]

Yup, this is gonna be my process. BigjohnUSMC was nice enough to send me the regulations. So I will read through that, get my argument down and they proceed with my VRC, then supervisor and so on.

Update us as well if you don’t mind. I’m curious as to how this pans out for you. Once I get my DD-214 in hand I’ll be going above and beyond my VRC as well.

 

[marine12]

Update us as well if you don’t mind. I’m curious as to how this pans out for you. Once I get my DD-214 in hand I’ll be going above and beyond my VRC as well.

I will keep you updated! I have already had to go to my senator once with voc rehab, so if I have to go again no big deal lol.

 

[esob]

I will keep you updated! I have already had to go to my senator once with voc rehab, so if I have to go again no big deal lol.

Good luck! I always tell my vets the key to getting what you want out of voc rehab is courteous persistence (with the first part being the hardest, lol)

 

[marine12]

So I dug through the regulations and laws and learned a lot! At any point, with written notice to your counselor, you can request a change in your rehab plan. The local office then has 90 days to review or deny the said plan. You can then request a revision of the terms of your original plan if you feel its not working for you. I also learned that there is nothing in the actual law (I read the entire US code regarding voc rehab lol) that says voc rehab is applicable only to entry-level employment. It can be for any employment that fits your abilities and interests. I also have the law stating the rules for retractive reimbursements and everything else.

I probably still have an uphill battle but at least I have some ammo on my side. My first step is requesting a change in my rehab plan. From there I will work on extensions to cover medical school, but I have those regulations as well.

 

[MusicDOc124]

So I dug through the regulations and laws and learned a lot! At any point, with written notice to your counselor, you can request a change in your rehab plan. The local office then has 90 days to review or deny the said plan. You can then request a revision of the terms of your original plan if you feel its not working for you. I also learned that there is nothing in the actual law (I read the entire US code regarding voc rehab lol) that says voc rehab is applicable only to entry-level employment. It can be for any employment that fits your abilities and interests. I also have the law stating the rules for retractive reimbursements and everything else.

I probably still have an uphill battle but at least I have some ammo on my side. My first step is requesting a change in my rehab plan. From there I will work on extensions to cover medical school, but I have those regulations as well.

I hope it works out, just keep in mind the subjectivity of "suitable employment" per how it's written in the law. Suitable is often what they consider entry-level employment in a given field.

The thing is, since nothing leads to becoming a physician other than medical school, being a physician in-and-of itself is entry-level. So you don't even need to really argue that point anyway (or you could argue the residency is the entry level employment, and you need the degree for that, so eventually become an attending). You need to make the argument that its suitable for you and that it doesnt aggravate your rated disabilities at all. Further, MD or DO is the BASIC requirement for gain entry for residency, which subsequently is the requirement for be an attending physician, as mentioned and as we're all aware.

 

[marine12]

I hope it works out, just keep in mind the subjectivity of "suitable employment" per how it's written in the law. Suitable is often what they consider entry-level employment in a given field.

The thing is, since nothing leads to becoming a physician other than medical school, being a physician in-and-of itself is entry-level. So you don't even need to really argue that point anyway (or you could argue the residency is the entry level employment, and you need the degree for that, so eventually become an attending). You need to make the argument that its suitable for you and that it doesnt aggravate your rated disabilities at all. Further, MD or DO is the BASIC requirement for gain entry for residency, which subsequently is the requirement for be an attending physician, as mentioned and as we're all aware.

Yeah,my counsler just keeps making the point to me that voc rehab is for entry level employment only. As in you have a bachelors you are good to go find a Job, is what she always says. So the case I’ll have to make my case that I can succeed in medicine and that voc rehab can cover more than a bachelors if it’s required to suit a career that is within my “abilities and interests.” Which having an acceptance would fit the abilities part and showing my interest is easy.

Will write up my written notice and try and see her sometime in the the next week or so. Since I fully expect them to take the full 90 days alloted to them.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Can you move? Might be easier to just start over with a new counselor.

 

[BC_89]

Yeah,my counsler just keeps making the point to me that voc rehab is for entry level employment only. As in you have a bachelors you are good to go find a Job, is what she always says. So the case I’ll have to make my case that I can succeed in medicine and that voc rehab can cover more than a bachelors if it’s required to suit a career that is within my “abilities and interests.” Which having an acceptance would fit the abilities part and showing my interest is easy.

Will write up my written notice and try and see her sometime in the the next week or so. Since I fully expect them to take the full 90 days alloted to them.

Sounds like our VRCs could be twins.

I’ll soon be taking my permissive and transition leave and have decided to switch counselors from Texas to Oregon once I get my DD-214 at the end of next month. If yours is anything like mine, it seems like it’d be much easier going through someone else. Some people are just set in their ways. Apparently mine has been set with her ways for 38 years...

 

[BC_89]

Yeah,my counsler just keeps making the point to me that voc rehab is for entry level employment only. As in you have a bachelors you are good to go find a Job, is what she always says. So the case I’ll have to make my case that I can succeed in medicine and that voc rehab can cover more than a bachelors if it’s required to suit a career that is within my “abilities and interests.” Which having an acceptance would fit the abilities part and showing my interest is easy.

Will write up my written notice and try and see her sometime in the the next week or so. Since I fully expect them to take the full 90 days alloted to them.

I joined an all-day pre-retirement orientation today just before I go on permissive / terminal leave from AD service. Chapter 31 was brought up and as you can imagine, I questioned the regional rep in our VA district. Here’s what he had to say:

(Notice these answers are correlated 100% to the purpose of the entitlement that we already know).

1) Chapter 31 is NOT just for entry level employment, but is for a job/career change due to inccured disabilities tied into military service.

2) These entitlements are NOT just for those seeking a bachelors. It is geared for undergrad degrees, Vocational certificates, and/or higher educational studies in pursuant for a “career change” due to disability.

3) The unwritten red-tape to use Chapter 31 Benefits (even to extend past a bachelors) is having transcripts / ACCEPTANCE letter in hand providing the severance of the individuals disability.

4) If any Voc-Rehab counselor turns you away due solely on your prior education and not as outlined in the entitlement (ie employability of the individual) you are to report the verdict and switch counselors avoiding an appealment altogether. The idea is to validate the individual findings and push the paperwork to the new Voc-Rehab Counselor.

As you can imagine, I dropped some dimes (last name, first names) as to who handled my paperwork and emails detailing my wrongful rejection.

I’am currently placed on NDAA until my medical retirement date starts (Feb 26 2019) and then I’ll start my paperwork once again in a different state which will then be pushed to the state of my professional program.

As we all know, it costs the VA a lot of $ to put someone truly qualifying on Chapter 31...Albeit the beginning of the program was geared for job entry employment, it is now geared to the interest of the Veteran provided his current education is deemed null due to service (even if it means an extension of the benefit).

Which (again) makes sense: Anyone can be a Walmart greeter and get paid, that doesn’t mean they are automatically disqualified...

 

[esob]

Who you end up with as a VRC can make all the difference in the world. I recently had my annual meeting with my new VRC and was dreading that they might try to change my IWRP (fun fact, an IWRP without a VRC's signature is not worth anything). Anyway, it turns out they were a gulf vet as well and we spent 30 minutes talking shop, after which I walked out of the office with my IWRP intact with the new VRC's signature on it, along with a promise (albeit verbal), that wherever I end up, if the new office tries to reject my plan (which the new office can do), that my current VRC will manage everything for me remotely (the point being, I don't have to worry about having a new VRC who disagrees with my plan in the region for whatever med school I attend, which is a constant nagging sore for many of us moving regions for school).

TLDR: if you aren't clicking with your VRC and you can't build rapport with them, get a new VRC.

 

[BC_89]

Absolutely.

The biggest takeaway from this rep (Texas) was simple. If you have to appeal due to current VRC, your better off reapplying outside the district. Bias and favoritism can be a blessing or a curse for certain people. Once I move states I’ll see how that works out.

 

[marine12]

I joined an all-day pre-retirement orientation today just before I go on permissive / terminal leave from AD service. Chapter 31 was brought up and as you can imagine, I questioned the regional rep in our VA district. Here’s what he had to say:

(Notice these answers are correlated 100% to the purpose of the entitlement that we already know).

1) Chapter 31 is NOT just for entry level employment, but is for a job/career change due to inccured disabilities tied into military service.

2) These entitlements are NOT just for those seeking a bachelors. It is geared for undergrad degrees, Vocational certificates, and/or higher educational studies in pursuant for a “career change” due to disability.

3) The unwritten red-tape to use Chapter 31 Benefits (even to extend past a bachelors) is having transcripts / ACCEPTANCE letter in hand providing the severance of the individuals disability.

4) If any Voc-Rehab counselor turns you away due solely on your prior education and not as outlined in the entitlement (ie employability of the individual) you are to report the verdict and switch counselors avoiding an appealment altogether. The idea is to validate the individual findings and push the paperwork to the new Voc-Rehab Counselor.

As you can imagine, I dropped some dimes (last name, first names) as to who handled my paperwork and emails detailing my wrongful rejection.

I’am currently placed on NDAA until my medical retirement date starts (Feb 26 2019) and then I’ll start my paperwork once again in a different state which will then be pushed to the state of my professional program.

As we all know, it costs the VA a lot of $ to put someone truly qualifying on Chapter 31...Albeit the beginning of the program was geared for job entry employment, it is now geared to the interest of the Veteran provided his current education is deemed null due to service (even if it means an extension of the benefit).

Which (again) makes sense: Anyone can be a Walmart greeter and get paid, that doesn’t mean they are automatically disqualified...

Yeah, a lot of this comes down to the culture of the office you are at. I know the supervisor of my office because she used to be my counsler and previously shot down medical school. So I am going to do the formal process to change my career plan. Which is submit a written letter to your counsler and to the supervisor. If they disapprove it then it goes to the director of voc rehab. This is different than the formal appeal process that goes before the whole Veterans Affairs appeals board. The written letter of change stays internal to voc rehab unless you decide to do tobthe appeals board. I will go to my senators before that though. Mostly likely, knowing how awful my office is, I will be going to my senator.

My office is straigh awful. They once banned walk ins because they had so many people coming in with issues due to their incompetence. I got that changed by calling my senator. It’s againsr voc rehab policy is ban walk ins.

 

[marine12]

I joined an all-day pre-retirement orientation today just before I go on permissive / terminal leave from AD service. Chapter 31 was brought up and as you can imagine, I questioned the regional rep in our VA district. Here’s what he had to say:

(Notice these answers are correlated 100% to the purpose of the entitlement that we already know).

1) Chapter 31 is NOT just for entry level employment, but is for a job/career change due to inccured disabilities tied into military service.

2) These entitlements are NOT just for those seeking a bachelors. It is geared for undergrad degrees, Vocational certificates, and/or higher educational studies in pursuant for a “career change” due to disability.

3) The unwritten red-tape to use Chapter 31 Benefits (even to extend past a bachelors) is having transcripts / ACCEPTANCE letter in hand providing the severance of the individuals disability.

4) If any Voc-Rehab counselor turns you away due solely on your prior education and not as outlined in the entitlement (ie employability of the individual) you are to report the verdict and switch counselors avoiding an appealment altogether. The idea is to validate the individual findings and push the paperwork to the new Voc-Rehab Counselor.

As you can imagine, I dropped some dimes (last name, first names) as to who handled my paperwork and emails detailing my wrongful rejection.

I’am currently placed on NDAA until my medical retirement date starts (Feb 26 2019) and then I’ll start my paperwork once again in a different state which will then be pushed to the state of my professional program.

As we all know, it costs the VA a lot of $ to put someone truly qualifying on Chapter 31...Albeit the beginning of the program was geared for job entry employment, it is now geared to the interest of the Veteran provided his current education is deemed null due to service (even if it means an extension of the benefit).

Which (again) makes sense: Anyone can be a Walmart greeter and get paid, that doesn’t mean they are automatically disqualified...

Could you by chance PM me the reps email or phone number? I’d like to talk to him...

 

[BC_89]

Could you by chance PM me the reps email or phone number? I’d like to talk to him...

Of course! Later this evening let me go over my packet and when I get the info I’ll send you the information

 

[marine12]

Of course! Later this evening let me go over my packet and when I get the info I’ll send you the information

Awesome. Thanks bro. I want all the backup I can get lol.

 

[rangerdad]

never quit.

I was approved at the beginning for the physician plan, then the supervisor cancel that request and they could give me an explanation according to the DOD and Voc Rehab policies. I finished my Biomedical Sciences degree but still want them to approve me for MD. The counselor wanted me to see if I’ll agree for PA or a master, but I only want the physician route. Currently, I decided to approved the decision while also applying to SGU (nothing to do with my numbers, personal choice). I chose to get the best lawyer that knows the Voc Rehab program,Ben Krause and let him fight it while I focus on this journey. He writes a lot about the program and has many tools to help you, www.disabledveterans.org.
It will cost me $7k if I win, if not half of that. For me, the risk and investment is worth it if I win the appeal, since SGU can be $250k total. I could also get approved for retroactive pay for that first year and for them to pay my lawyers fee. This is a last line of defense since I know and seen a few people getting approved for the physician path su before they apply to medical school (lucky them to find that counselor).
Regardless, this is my goal, so if I have to pay for it at the end I am willing as well.

Data:
100% disabled vet (15 yrs)
Biomedical Sciences degree 3.88 GPA
Taking MCAT in May
We will see how the story end!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

I was approved at the beginning for the physician plan, then the supervisor cancel that request and they could give me an explanation according to the DOD and Voc Rehab policies. I finished my Biomedical Sciences degree but still want them to approve me for MD. The counselor wanted me to see if I’ll agree for PA or a master, but I only want the physician route. Currently, I decided to approved the decision while also applying to SGU (nothing to do with my numbers, personal choice). I chose to get the best lawyer that knows the Voc Rehab program,Ben Krause and let him fight it while I focus on this journey. He writes a lot about the program and has many tools to help you, www.disabledveterans.org.
It will cost me $7k if I win, if not half of that. For me, the risk and investment is worth it if I win the appeal, since SGU can be $250k total. I could also get approved for retroactive pay for that first year and for them to pay my lawyers fee. This is a last line of defense since I know and seen a few people getting approved for the physician path su before they apply to medical school (lucky them to find that counselor).
Regardless, this is my goal, so if I have to pay for it at the end I am willing as well.

Data:
100% disabled vet (15 yrs)
Biomedical Sciences degree 3.88 GPA
Taking MCAT in May
We will see how the story end!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

What can I do to persuade you from not going the Caribbean route?

@esob @MusicDOc124 Pls help me talk some sense to this dude.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Currently, I decided to approved the decision while also applying to SGU (nothing to do with my numbers, personal choice).
...
SGU can be $250k total.

Why would you choose to go to the caribbean for medical school? Do you not realize that many residencies screen out applicants from anywhere outside the US? Others have separate requirements (often higher scores on each board)? These programs also don't allow for gov-backed education loans or whatever if needed, so all of your loans will be private loans to my best knowledge, which have a different pay back schedule and have higher interest rates.

And what do you mean you were APPROVED for physician, and then the REQUEST was cancelled? Was it a request that was denied, or were you approved? They can't go back and cancel out a signed agreement, so it sounds like you were found entitled to VRE, but not approved for physician. These are 2 different things.

 

[rangerdad]

Why would you choose to go to the caribbean for medical school? Do you not realize that many residencies screen out applicants from anywhere outside the US? Others have separate requirements (often higher scores on each board)? These programs also don't allow for gov-backed education loans or whatever if needed, so all of your loans will be private loans to my best knowledge, which have a different pay back schedule and have higher interest rates.

And what do you mean you were APPROVED for physician, and then the REQUEST was cancelled? Was it a request that was denied, or were you approved? They can't go back and cancel out a signed agreement, so it sounds like you were found entitled to VRE, but not approved for physician. These are 2 different things.

Not looking for anyone’s opinion any longer. I have done my research and made my decision due to other facts. I have learned in this 4 yrs journey so far that at the end of the day is a personal one and there are many roads to become a physician. SDN have many opinions and stories, but I have to write mine. Check your facts as well about government loans. It doesn’t matter, at least to me.
I was not approved for the IWRP physician route (the supervisor change it at last minute), fighting right now to change it. We’ll see.


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[Black Coffee 24/7]

Not looking for anyone’s opinion any longer. I have done my research and made my decision due to other facts. I have learned in this 4 yrs journey so far that at the end of the day is a personal one and there are many roads to become a physician. SDN have many opinions and stories, but I have to write mine. Check your facts as well about government loans. It doesn’t matter, at least to me.
I was not approved for the IWRP physician route (the supervisor change it at last minute), fighting right now to change it. We’ll see.


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May I ask about what have you learned then? I’m just trying to understand your thought process bc it sounds like based on your post bac gpa, you’re competitive for US MDs and DOs. I’m not trying to lecture you or tell you what you can do or can’t do unlike most of the sdn teens here.

However, as a brother in arm who also struggles with physical ailments from my service and through med schools, the barrier of entry isn’t a med school acceptance but a residency placement. As a DO soon to be 4th yr who has a solid application for residency, I still face limitation in my specialty of choice and location.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Not looking for anyone’s opinion any longer. I have done my research and made my decision due to other facts. I have learned in this 4 yrs journey so far that at the end of the day is a personal one and there are many roads to become a physician. SDN have many opinions and stories, but I have to write mine. Check your facts as well about government loans. It doesn’t matter, at least to me.
I was not approved for the IWRP physician route (the supervisor change it at last minute), fighting right now to change it. We’ll see.


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So, can you tell us what happened in the last min with regards to your counselor changing your plan? Maybe we can help you. All of us posting here are either in dental school or medical school with full coverage from Voc Rehab. So, I’m not saying that we are the best sources of info but we have certainly walked your path.

But, my understanding with regards to Voc Rehab is that it will not cover Caribbean medical school due to high failure rate and low residency placement. Voc Rehab goal is to get you a job, and a Caribbean program doesnt meet the criteria.

If you are still fighting to get Voc Rehab to pay for medical school, you need to go to a DO or MD school to even have a fighting chance at winning this battle. Your Caribbean option pretty much ensures a 100% denial regardless of your lawyer Ben Krause or others due to the poor residency placement and high failure rate of Caribbean medical schools.

This is a true story from my friend here. She used post 9/11 for BA w 100% disability. Then she tried to get Voc Rehab for DO school. The dB counselor denied her. It took her two years of fighting through her DO years before she was finally approved retroactively w/ all tuitions and BAH paid for. Your case may be like her, but you have a zero fighting chance at this battle if you take that Caribbean acceptance letter. That’s half a million dollar being flushed down the drain.

 

[rangerdad]

What can I do to persuade you from not going the Caribbean route?

@esob @MusicDOc124 Pls help me talk some sense to this dude.

Don’t worry brothers. I have read, research, and create list about the pros and cons. For me it has everything to do with the SGU program, process, location, support, rotation options, network, etc...

Early in my career in the military I went from Navy Corpsman to the Army, everyone said I was crazy. Made it work.

Then moved through the Army Rangers training and ranks. I made it work even tough it was one of the “hardest” path.

Then went Warrant Officer instead of becoming a 1SG “worst decision”, people said. They were kind of right, been an officer is tedious.

Later decide to leave the military after 15 yrs of service and 9 deployments, everyone criticized me for “wasting a career” and not retiring. Why because a $4000 paycheck every month (woohoo)?

Now I own a successful business and completed my degree but they want me to work in a lab or be a PA. Nope.

SND telling me (and many others)that going to the Caribbean is the “worst thing you can do”. Go an contact all those doctors that have graduated and have successful careers that graduated from SGU. I have contacted at least 15.

I don’t want to deal with all the bs in the CONUS medical school system, specially dealing with the application process. I prefer schools that threat everything straight up businesses.

You pay this money, we provide you this service, you pass the test you move to on with your career. You cannot pass, you fail. DONE.

While in CONUS you have to volunteer here, show 100 hours of shadowing here, write a beautiful story there, take a 7 hours test that no one cares at the end, maybe do some research, feed the homeless, applying as minority is better, blah blah blah blah....

Who cares?! There are physicians all over the world, do you think to be successful you have to go to a CONUS school? Do you think I would stop if I don’t get a residency in the states? Do you think living in another country and serving as a doctor will be the worst thing?

At the end it will be in my hands to create my own path. Work as hard as possible to achieve the level of success I want. I don’t need to be the best doctor in the world, but I can be the best doctor in the community I serve. If that don’t pay the bills (student loans), they can go find me renting kayaks in Jamaica and take me to court.

You stay in the hamster wheel. It has work for many people, I bet it will for you as well.



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[rangerdad]

May I ask about what have you learned then? I’m just trying to understand your thought process bc it sounds like based on your post bac gpa, you’re competitive for US MDs and DOs. I’m not trying to lecture you or tell you what you can do or can’t do unlike most of the sdn teens here.

However, as a brother in arm who also struggles with physical ailments from my service and through med schools, the barrier of entry isn’t a med school acceptance but a residency placement. As a DO soon to be 4th yr who has a solid application for residency, I still face limitation in my specialty of choice and location.

I am not thinking that far. I will be ok with a IM/FP, EM will be a dream and they have many who have match to it. First, I just don’t care about playing the medical school application process. I know SGU will accept me with my stats (including a 490 MCAT if I dumb it, which I’m not doing it). I have research their services, support system, network, etc... Spoke to many physicians and graduates at their jobs, residences, and location. My wife may apply to their 5 yr MD route (or nursing non-factor for me), living away from CONUS for two years will be good for me, having multiple states to do rotations and electives seems awesome (or overseas for one or two), etc...

At the beginning I was preparing to do the whole process including applying to all the FL schools, one in SC, many DOs, couple reach schools, deal with the application, secondaries, interviews, etc... I’m ok.

Now I am just going to one website, putting all my effort into it knowing that I will be at their top of their list. Understanding that they are a business, not a public entity. Don’t need to do a research or thesis to graduate. Just study, pass the USMLE1 and apply smart for the match. I let you know if my path work in 4 years.


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[rangerdad]

So, can you tell us what happened in the last min with regards to your counselor changing your plan? Maybe we can help you. All of us posting here are either in dental school or medical school with full coverage from Voc Rehab. So, I’m not saying that we are the best sources of info but we have certainly walked your path.

But, my understanding with regards to Voc Rehab is that it will not cover Caribbean medical school due to high failure rate and low residency placement. Voc Rehab goal is to get you a job, and a Caribbean program doesnt meet the criteria.

If you are still fighting to get Voc Rehab to pay for medical school, you need to go to a DO or MD school to even have a fighting chance at winning this battle. Your Caribbean option pretty much ensures a 100% denial regardless of your lawyer Ben Krause or others due to the poor residency placement and high failure rate of Caribbean medical schools.

This is a true story from my friend here. She used post 9/11 for BA w 100% disability. Then she tried to get Voc Rehab for DO school. The dB counselor denied her. It took her two years of fighting through her DO years before she was finally approved retroactively w/ all tuitions and BAH paid for. Your case may be like her, but you have a zero fighting chance at this battle if you take that Caribbean acceptance letter. That’s half a million dollar being flushed down the drain.

SGU is an approved institution by the VA. You can use your GI BILL or Voc Rehab. They even have their own regional counselor.
Same thing with many international schools all over the world. You could study in Australia or England if you chose, using your GI BILL or Voc Rehab.

Foreign Programs: VA.gov

https://www.benefits.va.gov/WARMS/docs/admin28/M28R/Part_V/V_C_3.pdf

Everything is in researching and the way you submit your paperwork. After, if they deny the request without proper justification do like me and take it all the way to the top. If necessary hire a lawyer. Never accept no for an answer.

I fail it doesn’t matter because I am still going to medical school, it will be just a little more expensive .



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[rangerdad]

So, can you tell us what happened in the last min with regards to your counselor changing your plan? Maybe we can help you. All of us posting here are either in dental school or medical school with full coverage from Voc Rehab. So, I’m not saying that we are the best sources of info but we have certainly walked your path.

But, my understanding with regards to Voc Rehab is that it will not cover Caribbean medical school due to high failure rate and low residency placement. Voc Rehab goal is to get you a job, and a Caribbean program doesnt meet the criteria.

If you are still fighting to get Voc Rehab to pay for medical school, you need to go to a DO or MD school to even have a fighting chance at winning this battle. Your Caribbean option pretty much ensures a 100% denial regardless of your lawyer Ben Krause or others due to the poor residency placement and high failure rate of Caribbean medical schools.

This is a true story from my friend here. She used post 9/11 for BA w 100% disability. Then she tried to get Voc Rehab for DO school. The dB counselor denied her. It took her two years of fighting through her DO years before she was finally approved retroactively w/ all tuitions and BAH paid for. Your case may be like her, but you have a zero fighting chance at this battle if you take that Caribbean acceptance letter. That’s half a million dollar being flushed down the drain.

That’s an awesome story from your friend. I’m glad she was give what she deserved.
According to the regulations it should not be any different if I chose to go to SGU. It is a VA approved institution of higher learning.
Similar to, if I apply for a school outside my state. If I get two acceptance letters they will prefer, or try to make me take the in-state school (according to my counselor) but if I just get accepted to an out of state school then they will just transfer my case to another counselor (again if they approved the IWRP).

For me this is what happened:

I decided to transfer to Voc Rehab a Summer and a semester before finishing my Biomedical Science degree.
I got approved 10 days before my GI BILL ran out, which is perfect because it put me at the higher BAH rate.
I went into the meeting prepared with a letter explaining my career choice. I have copies of three people that got an approved IWRP to physician at different levels of training. From college freshmen to one with a letter of acceptance at hand.
I research all the Voc Rehab regulations and even printed out some appeal cases that got overturned after the veteran was denied due to bias or not a supported reason by the regulation.
I knew that the computer aptitude test needed to be solid (I scored very high and even recommended me for a surgeon job). I research the ONET and the Department of Labor showing that physicians where a thriving profession in the next 10 yrs.
I also showed according to the regulation, that I had “the aptitude, capability, and interested” to begin this training. Since becoming a physician is an entry level position (which need a MD to start).
According to my doctors letter I am able to complete and work as a physician even though my disability.
Also, according to regulation I should be classified as SEH, will allowed me to go over the 48 months of total training (according to the regulation) and into completion of my MD.
I gave my counselor a breakdown of medical school cost from the moment a person studies for the MCAT until First Year of Resident (when you start getting pay).
She wrote everything down and gave me some other “homework”. Returned in two weeks and we finish the plan. I knew what she needed to write and the codes, etc... for the 1st goal, 2nd goal and 3rd goal.
We setup an appointment to signed the IWRP and when I came back she told me that her supervisor denied the plan, and wanted me to change it to physician assistant, or that my Biomedical Sciences degree was enough to put me back to the work force.
I told her I could go an get a CDL and go back to the work force, but that doesn’t cover the other requirement of rehabilitation according to the regulations.
We had a heated discussion back and forth and I did not sign anything, and requested a letter of denial. I read more about the appeal processes, etc.. and chose to accept the Biomedical Sciences path, since it allowed me to stay in school without financial stress. Plus they did not put in the path that I should get approved for a ASCP Certification in order for me to find a job as a scientist or medical technologist. I have currently applied to 20 jobs and not luck because my lack of certifications (building evidence).
Upon completion, I put for a change of IWRP to physician which I knew it was going to get denied. Request a FOIAI so I can have all the records from my case from the beginning, plus all the notes I took when I sat down with my counselor and hired a lawyer.
That way I can start medical school, while this long process takes place. If I lose I will have spend $3,500 plus having to pay the loans of my medical school. According to the Department of Labor the worst I can get pay is around $180k a year (if I am at the bottom of the FM/IM field), only 1% of MDs have defaulted in their student loans, and I will probably go back to the VA since I want to work with veterans and make them pay some of the loans. I will buy back some of my years and hopefully have a Federal retirement at the end of the marathon.

Worst come to worst, I get hit by a bus tomorrow and this plan is worthless!


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[rikudo]

Does Ch 31 still pay BAH for residency?

 

[MusicDOc124]

SND telling me (and many others)that going to the Caribbean is the “worst thing you can do”. Go an contact all those doctors that have graduated and have successful careers that graduated from SGU. I have contacted at least 15.

I don’t want to deal with all the bs in the CONUS medical school system, specially dealing with the application process. I prefer schools that threat everything straight up businesses.

You pay this money, we provide you this service, you pass the test you move to on with your career. You cannot pass, you fail. DONE.

While in CONUS you have to volunteer here, show 100 hours of shadowing here, write a beautiful story there, take a 7 hours test that no one cares at the end, maybe do some research, feed the homeless, applying as minority is better, blah blah blah blah....

Who cares?! There are physicians all over the world, do you think to be successful you have to go to a CONUS school? Do you think I would stop if I don’t get a residency in the states? Do you think living in another country and serving as a doctor will be the worst thing?

At the end it will be in my hands to create my own path. Work as hard as possible to achieve the level of success I want. I don’t need to be the best doctor in the world, but I can be the best doctor in the community I serve. If that don’t pay the bills (student loans), they can go find me renting kayaks in Jamaica and take me to court.

You stay in the hamster wheel. It has work for many people, I bet it will for you as well.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I am not thinking that far. I will be ok with a IM/FP, EM will be a dream and they have many who have match to it. First, I just don’t care about playing the medical school application process. I know SGU will accept me with my stats (including a 490 MCAT if I dumb it, which I’m not doing it). I have research their services, support system, network, etc... Spoke to many physicians and graduates at their jobs, residences, and location. My wife may apply to their 5 yr MD route (or nursing non-factor for me), living away from CONUS for two years will be good for me, having multiple states to do rotations and electives seems awesome (or overseas for one or two), etc...

At the beginning I was preparing to do the whole process including applying to all the FL schools, one in SC, many DOs, couple reach schools, deal with the application, secondaries, interviews, etc... I’m ok.

Now I am just going to one website, putting all my effort into it knowing that I will be at their top of their list. Understanding that they are a business, not a public entity. Don’t need to do a research or thesis to graduate. Just study, pass the USMLE1 and apply smart for the match. I let you know if my path work in 4 years.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

SGU is an approved institution by the VA. You can use your GI BILL or Voc Rehab. They even have their own regional counselor.
Same thing with many international schools all over the world. You could study in Australia or England if you chose, using your GI BILL or Voc Rehab.

Foreign Programs: VA.gov

https://www.benefits.va.gov/WARMS/docs/admin28/M28R/Part_V/V_C_3.pdf

Everything is in researching and the way you submit your paperwork. After, if they deny the request without proper justification do like me and take it all the way to the top. If necessary hire a lawyer. Never accept no for an answer.

I fail it doesn’t matter because I am still going to medical school, it will be just a little more expensive .
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Regarding volunteering, research, etc - these are things that residencies look for too, as well as scores. And regarding being successful as a physician, do you have to go to a CONUS school? No, BUT to be successful in the Match here in the US for a US residency to practice here in the US, it certainly helps. You say you're okay with IM/FM/EM, but you haven't even done any rotations as a med student to know. MOST med students minds changes as you learn the various pathology, see that patients yourself, experience the "bread and butter" so-to-speak, seeing/doing procedures, etc. What if you end up liking neurosurgery, ortho, optho, derm? Regarding it being an approved institution by the VA, so is University of Phoenix, so is DeVry, etc - that doesn't mean they should be your top choices - but you're right, these are opinions.

But hey, if you've made your decision and already stated you won't listen to advice or change your mind, so there's no point.

Best of luck with your appeal and what not with Ben, and with going to SGU - also hoping that works out for you.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Does Ch 31 still pay BAH for residency?

I don't believe Ch 31 does. It's an employment program, and residency is employment, thus the program stops. I believe you only get BAH after graduation for up to 2 months/until residency starts if less than 2 months (or maybe the full 2 months regardless?).

Ch 33 does though if you have that available.

 

[MusicDOc124]

BTW, a few weeks ago on Ben's fb page, there is someone who posted about trying to get help getting a residency. Went to the Caribbean for med school apparently per one of his own comments - graduated in 2007 - has unsuccessfully applied to the Match numerous times, and it's now 12 years later. All he managed to do was complete a NON-ACGME internship, which means still has no PGY1 year completed, which also means still no Step 3 and no medical license to even be a GP in one of the few states that allow for it like MO or UT.

 

[BC_89]

Does Ch 31 still pay BAH for residency?

It does not