VMCAS Questions and Rants c/o 2029

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Minnesota has passed legislation that allows graduates of non-accredited schools to gain an institutional license if they work for the university, regardless of their ECFVG/PAVE status. This would open up the possibility for students from non-accredited schools to do internships or residencies without needing expensive exams (there is still an exam, written application, and character assessment via 5 recommendation letters).

I doubt this will (or should) encourage people to go to non-accredited schools, but it is something that’s happening.

Sec. 156.0721 MN Statutes

 

[DVM882029]

Minnesota has passed legislation that allows graduates of non-accredited schools to gain an institutional license if they work for the university, regardless of their ECFVG/PAVE status. This would open up the possibility for students from non-accredited schools to do internships or residencies without needing expensive exams (there is still an exam, written application, and character assessment via 5 recommendation letters).

I doubt this will (or should) encourage people to go to non-accredited schools, but it is something that’s happening.

Sec. 156.0721 MN Statutes

I know other schools have this as well, UF is one of them or at least used to be.

 

[vampyrica]

I am the scheduler for my school's Prevet club and st Matthews is wanting to give a presentation for our club members. We usually love having universities come and present however, I am not sure if letting st Matthews present to us would be a good idea just because they are not accredited and I do not know much about the program.

They told us they applied for accreditation in January but I just want yalls opinions.

So I have mixed opinions, and I have not gotten into school yet so my opinion should not weigh super heavily. HOWEVER! there might be students who are interested in moving outside of the United States permanently, so a non AVMA accredited school doesn't really matter to them if they have no intention of staying and practicing in the United States, they might want to keep their options open. Maybe ask if it is possible to see the presentation beforehand? So that you can confirm they will inform students they are not accredited and that if they do not get accreditation, students would have to go through ECFVG or PAVE.

 

[vampyrica]

For those more educated on the ECFVG process, I have another question (I appreciate you taking the time to answer my countless questions MWAH MWAH THANK YOU!!!!) so I had asked a recruiter for a school if they plan on being AVMA accredited so North American students can sit the NAVLE and they did not give me a direct answer on this so I followed up and asked about their ECFVG status and was told "In order to get ECFVG status, the student must sit the NAVLE first and then the school will get ECFVG status" which doesnt make sense to me, because not everyone can just sit the NAVLE...I feel like I'm being spun in circles.

 

[tatidog06]

Did anyone send a “thank you” email to their interviewers?

 

[indysadventures]

Did anyone send a “thank you” email to their interviewers?

If you’re able and it’s an open process, I absolutely would! Even if it doesn’t end up meaning much to them, it could end up meaning a lot, and reflects well on your character as an applicant.

 

[JaynaAli]

For those more educated on the ECFVG process, I have another question (I appreciate you taking the time to answer my countless questions MWAH MWAH THANK YOU!!!!) so I had asked a recruiter for a school if they plan on being AVMA accredited so North American students can sit the NAVLE and they did not give me a direct answer on this so I followed up and asked about their ECFVG status and was told "In order to get ECFVG status, the student must sit the NAVLE first and then the school will get ECFVG status" which doesnt make sense to me, because not everyone can just sit the NAVLE...I feel like I'm being spun in circles.

ECFVG policies and procedures - AVMA ECFVG®-listed veterinary colleges

To be eligible to enroll in the ECFVG certification program, an individual must be a graduate of, or final-year student at, an AVMA-listed veterinary college.

www.avma.org

From what I read here, it does look like there does have to be a student applying/wanting to take ECFVG then the school responds and then it can get listed. But I’m pretty sure you have to do the ECFVG steps before you’re allowed to do NAVLE. I wouldn’t want to spend all the money for vet school and to be the first student because what if it doesn’t get approved?

 

[vampyrica]

ECFVG policies and procedures - AVMA ECFVG®-listed veterinary colleges

To be eligible to enroll in the ECFVG certification program, an individual must be a graduate of, or final-year student at, an AVMA-listed veterinary college.

www.avma.org

From what I read here, it does look like there does have to be a student applying/wanting to take ECFVG then the school responds and then it can get listed. But I’m pretty sure you have to do the ECFVG steps before you’re allowed to do NAVLE. I wouldn’t want to spend all the money for vet school and to be the first student because what if it doesn’t get approved?

Ohh I see! That makes sense. So, a student needs to apply to take ECFVG, then it is up to thr discression of the council/committee to approve or deny that student and go through the process with the school. That seems overly complicated and extremely stressful.

 

[battie]

Ohh I see! That makes sense. So, a student needs to apply to take ECFVG, then it is up to thr discression of the council/committee to approve or deny that student and go through the process with the school. That seems overly complicated and extremely stressful.

This is my main reason for not recommending such a school.
1. The school representative was evasive on probably the most important info about their program. That's shady.
2. Even for people who potentially want to move out of the country now, having a degree that's easily US eligible is a good resource to have for later. I listed somewhere else (don't remember the thread) the benefits of staying in the US broadly, and I stand by the list. Likewise, there's the potential to want to come back as well.
3. It's not nearly as close to being a guaranteed route as going to an AVMA accredited institution to become a vet. Going through all that money and effort to not be able to practice? Sketch

 

[vampyrica]

This is my main reason for not recommending such a school.
1. The school representative was evasive on probably the most important info about their program. That's shady.
2. Even for people who potentially want to move out of the country now, having a degree that's easily US eligible is a good resource to have for later. I listed somewhere else (don't remember the thread) the benefits of staying in the US broadly, and I stand by the list. Likewise, there's the potential to want to come back as well.
3. It's not nearly as close to being a guaranteed route as going to an AVMA accredited institution to become a vet. Going through all that money and effort to not be able to practice? Sketch

Yes! That and even if you move out of the country, isn't the debt to income ratio somewhat the same depending on where you go to school and where you live outside of the US? Sure you're paying cheaper tuition but if you stay there, you'd have lower pay. (or am I totally wrong? please correct me if I am I dont want to misunderstand anything)

 

[Lissarae06]

Oklahoma State has made some big changes to their admissions requirements. No more GRE or Caspr, minimum GPA is 3.0

 

[battie]

Yes! That and even if you move out of the country, isn't the debt to income ratio somewhat the same depending on where you go to school and where you live outside of the US? Sure you're paying cheaper tuition but if you stay there, you'd have lower pay. (or am I totally wrong? please correct me if I am I dont want to misunderstand anything)

You are correct. US vets get some of the highest pay in the world for what we do.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

if you know fs you want to work in academia, then a non-acredited school wouldn't be a problem. Vet schools often sponsor residents and faculty with provisional licenses to practice only in their teaching hospitals

 

[battie]

if you know fs you want to work in academia, then a non-acredited school wouldn't be a problem. Vet schools often sponsor residents and faculty with provisional licenses to practice only in their teaching hospitals

The caveat there is getting a job in academia right out of school, whether that's as an intern (not difficult), resident (limited), or faculty (even more limited), and then staying in academia for 30-40 years. And unless the AVMA COE is going to fight precedent, the majority of schools opening will not have a teaching hospital.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

also you'll probably need a PhD nowadays

 

[battie]

also you'll probably need a PhD nowadays

Or specialty letters. Not a lot of positions for regular old dvms

 

[willowbutts]

Hey yall, I have skimmed through here and could not find this answer. I unfortunately went to Ross and was academically dismissed. I am now graduating with a masters because Ross tanked my very fragile GPA. When figuring out cumulative GPA and last 45 credits, do I account those? I figured yes for cumulative but is that also true for last 45? Thanks in advance 🙂

 

[PlumPoppy]

Adding on to the conversation of the ever-morphing "goal post" that is vet school admissions, this was my 3rd cycle. Back in my first cycle in 2022, I did file reviews with 2 schools, both saying my application was great! They just wanted to see my GPAs go up a bit. So I did. But then so did everyone else's that year because I didn't make it past the academic review that cycle. One school told me to get more volunteer experience, but otherwise, I got the same advice again. Applied again this year with the same deal. Supposed holistic admissions, but they have an invisible GPA-cutoff. It felt like no one actually looked at my application. "Record number of applications!" "Here's the average GPAs for applicants this cycle!" I understand, but it makes it feel impossible to even get looked at, much less stand out.

The rest of this post is a complete rant. It absolutely sucks. I'm going broke and accruing debt just trying to improve my GPA when it's apparently never improved enough. Do I retake every class I've made a B- or less in? It's a lot of money, but I don't want to waste even more money on a Master's I won't use. I'm also a victim of being advertised those one-year Master's programs and left before completing it. Is this hindering me as well?

I hate having to give my LORs the same news every year. I feel embarrassed to say that I'm still pursuing this after 3 attempts without even so much as an interview. I want it more than anything. But am I even qualified? How many times of being told the same thing over and over again do you finally just give up?

 

[battie]

Hey yall, I have skimmed through here and could not find this answer. I unfortunately went to Ross and was academically dismissed. I am now graduating with a masters because Ross tanked my very fragile GPA. When figuring out cumulative GPA and last 45 credits, do I account those? I figured yes for cumulative but is that also true for last 45? Thanks in advance 🙂

For last 45 GPA, you would use the most recent semesters in which 45 credits accrue, which is generally the 3 most recent semesters

 

[Qopiexs]

Fun fact: If the courses you took were not under accreditation then they will not count towards gpas, for example I went to St George’s prep program and was dismissed academically but because their prep program is not an accredited program for the US these courses are not considered for my gpas.
Transcripts of course are still sent in, the gpa is just its own side aspect that I then explain in my explanation statement on what happened, etc. Not sure if this applies to Ross or your scenario specifically but just wanted to through that out there.

 

[Koffeekat]

Is there anyone who would be willing to share their personal statement? I've got some ideas for mine, but am just looking for a little more brainstorming motivation.

 

[DVM882029]

Vet school personal statement examples

Check out these expert vet school personal statement examples to learn how to write your own.

bemoacademicconsulting.com

 

[thesunshinefuturedogtor]

Just here ranting but as a US resident, I am so scared for the future here. In some ways I wish I could just turn a blind eye to the absolute insanity that is happening here currently but I worry about starting a career in the US or even going to school here for the next 4 years. I used to see posted like this and sympathize, but think it myself that it wasnt all that bad. Well, the current political ongoings here have been a huge wakeup call and it is so unnerving not knowing what the future holds.

Back when I submitted my VMCAS application in September, I applied to both US schools and UK schools to keep an open mind about where I may get accepted. Now, I am so so grateful I did apply to both. So far I have been accepted to 2 UK schools and have interviewed for 2 US schools so far and am waiting to hear back. When it comes time in April to make a decision, if I end up with acceptances in both the UK and US, I am not sure which I would choose.

Anyways this is mainly just a rant because I needed to speak my mind about this with someone (or many someones). :,)

 

[Tech_Penguin]

I just heard a vet school admissions person say a 3.7 or 3.8 sGPA may not be competitive enough to get you an interview as an IS applicant. This is absolutely crazy, especially considering that since the GRE was removed, there's no way to normalize GPAs between majors and schools. And your number of hours, experiences, letters, essays, and graduate degrees are no longer considered before an interview.

 

[battie]

3.7 or 3.8 sGPA may not be competitive enough to get you an interview as an IS applicant. This is absolutely crazy

I would have to double check, but I think this has been the norm at UC Davis for a while. Maybe even also at TAMU. But again, I'd have to double check.

Depending on the school, this wouldn't be surprising to hear.

 

[Kirb]

I just heard a vet school admissions person say a 3.7 or 3.8 sGPA may not be competitive enough to get you an interview as an IS applicant. This is absolutely crazy, especially considering that since the GRE was removed, there's no way to normalize GPAs between majors and schools. And your number of hours, experiences, letters, essays, and graduate degrees are no longer considered before an interview.

Do you know which school this is? Although I haven't applied yet, I feel very lucky to have an IS school that isn't as GPA focused as that. It almost feels like luck of the draw depending on where you're a resident and that if you live in a state with stricter GPA requirements, you got the short end of the stick.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

this is Davis. The GPA used to be less important a few years ago when they had the pre-interview holistic screening and the GRE and only received a few hundred applications. At this point I’m thinking of moving to another state

 

[rhinolovergirl]

Honestly, Davis has unfortunately been a GPA heavy school for a long time. As you mentioned from before the GRE was removed, lower GPA acceptances were countered with very high GRE scores. However, it's no secret that most schools in general are prioritizing higher GPA's within the last few years, even those that claim to be holistic, so it is frustrating for sure. :/

 

[pp9]

I just heard a vet school admissions person say a 3.7 or 3.8 sGPA may not be competitive enough to get you an interview as an IS applicant. This is absolutely crazy, especially considering that since the GRE was removed, there's no way to normalize GPAs between majors and schools. And your number of hours, experiences, letters, essays, and graduate degrees are no longer considered before an interview.

this is Davis. The GPA used to be less important a few years ago when they had the pre-interview holistic screening and the GRE and only received a few hundred applications. At this point I’m thinking of moving to another state

It's not crazy at all considering its UCD. High 3's for Davis has been the case for as long as I've been poking around, which is 13ish years now. You wouldn't be the first student to move to another state solely for vet school admissions.

it's no secret that most schools in general are prioritizing higher GPA's within the last few years, even those that claim to be holistic

All vet schools are holistic. There is not a single school that looks at GPA and GPA alone as the sole deciding factor in admissions. Personally I think that the larger applicant pools have also brought forth more academically-stacked applicants than usual, but I have no data to back this up.

Med school averages tend to be around 3.7-3.8 I think, and that's considering that they also look at non-academic factors during admissions. Food for thought.

 

[roseaggies99]

this is Davis. The GPA used to be less important a few years ago when they had the pre-interview holistic screening and the GRE and only received a few hundred applications. At this point I’m thinking of moving to another state

my gpa was not that high and I received acceptance IS! I think they look past gpa for the most part for IS still

 

[rhinolovergirl]

It's not crazy at all considering its UCD. High 3's for Davis has been the case for as long as I've been poking around, which is 13ish years now. You wouldn't be the first student to move to another state solely for vet school admissions.


All vet schools are holistic. There is not a single school that looks at GPA and GPA alone as the sole deciding factor in admissions. Personally I think that the larger applicant pools have also brought forth more academically-stacked applicants than usual, but I have no data to back this up.

Med school averages tend to be around 3.7-3.8 I think, and that's considering that they also look at non-academic factors during admissions. Food for thought.

Yeah this is a really good point! I think it is worth considering that what a holistic review is can be subjective. For ex, while schools say they look at the whole application without doing a cut off for GPA's first, I think the common idea of a "holistic" application review assumes that a low GPA automatically can be made up by other parts of the application. However, with GPA averages rising (I agree that I think there is a trend now too!), more low GPA applicants are gonna feel like their application wasn't truly considered when they aren't accepted because most of the time strong academics with decent experiences/essay's/letters, will beat low GPA with good(or even great) experiences/essay's/letters, which may not be considered a true holistic review for some. And I think this is where most programs are leaning now unfortunately for those with lower GPA's hoping to make up for it in other ways. My advice for people now has been to prioritize re-taking pre-reqs as I think the academic trend will continue to increase. Again, I don't have any data for this either, just my thoughts on what I have noticed for the past few years.

 

[pp9]

I think the common idea of a "holistic" application review assumes that a low GPA automatically can be made up by other parts of the application.

Key word!

while schools say they look at the whole application without doing a cut off for GPA's first

I think only a very small handful of schools actually have published that they do this though, or at least imply that they do this. If I looked up every single school right now, I'd guess most (of the ones that publish detail on their processes, anyways) would state that an academic review is part of the first step, if not the entire first step.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

Congrats on your acceptance, Rose! Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do to improve my chances of an interview beyond grades. Besides your GPAs and recommenders' scores, Davis just looks at your background. They legit said they don't look at your application unless you rank in the top 10% during their reapplicant webinar. So I'm praying that a 3.8 science GPA with a much higher last-2-year GPA is good enough for an interview😭. So my rant was basically that this process has gotten even more competitive lately, and these seemingly competitive statistics may not be enough anymore

 

[rhinolovergirl]

Key word!

I think only a very small handful of schools actually have published that they do this though, or at least imply that they do this. If I looked up every single school right now, I'd guess most (of the ones that publish detail on their processes, anyways) would state that an academic review is part of the first step, if not the entire first step.

Yes 100% to this! I just meant from what I believe is the common perspective for low gpa applicants

 

[oweue]

I wasn’t going to apply again this next cycle but considering applying to the two Canadian schools and maybe one UK one to attempt to get out of the US but I feel it could be a waste of money seeing how I was declined everywhere this year… I’m really unsure what to do since I’ll be perusing a post bacc this year and that would be a waste if I was accepted to an international school this year and those grades wouldn’t matter as much

 

[vampyrica]

I wasn’t going to apply again this next cycle but considering applying to the two Canadian schools and maybe one UK one to attempt to get out of the US but I feel it could be a waste of money seeing how I was declined everywhere this year… I’m really unsure what to do since I’ll be perusing a post bacc this year and that would be a waste if I was accepted to an international school this year and those grades wouldn’t matter as much

Are you considering moving out of the country permanently or temporarily?

 

[oweue]

likely permanently. if the UK I’m a dual citizen so I wouldn’t need to apply for visas or citizenship afterwards

 

[vampyrica]

likely permanently. if the UK I’m a dual citizen so I wouldn’t need to apply for visas or citizenship afterwards

You wouldn't have to wait until VMCAS re-opens, right? Since they have their own application system as well?

 

[oweue]

I’m not [emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]% sure but since everything for me is already in VMCAS I’d likely wait anyway

 

[vampyrica]

I had heard from someone who knows someone at Tuskegee that they will officially be losing their accreditation due to the continuously low NAVLE rates despite their efforts to address their deficiencies. Has anyone else heard this? They've been on probation since 2022, the scores dropped from 2021 (71%) to 2024 (51%). Can they appeal a terminal accreditation?

disclaimer: this is just what i heard, i have no official sources nor am i stating anything. i'm simply asking a question if anyone else has heard similar and if anyone has insights on what the terminal accreditation process might look like?

 

[battie]

I had heard from someone who knows someone at Tuskegee that they will officially be losing their accreditation due to the continuously low NAVLE rates despite their efforts to address their deficiencies. Has anyone else heard this? They've been on probation since 2022, they scores dropped from 2021 (701%) to 2024 (51%). Can they appeal a terminal accreditation?

Holy ****. Let me do some digging in the next few days unless someone else comes in clutch. I'm on the weird 4-2 overnight swing tonight, so tbd

 

[vampyrica]

Holy ****. Let me do some digging in the next few days unless someone else comes in clutch. I'm on the weird 4-2 overnight swing tonight, so tbd

Get your sleep before you get to digging!

 

[SkiOtter]

I had heard from someone who knows someone at Tuskegee that they will officially be losing their accreditation due to the continuously low NAVLE rates despite their efforts to address their deficiencies. Has anyone else heard this? They've been on probation since 2022, the scores dropped from 2021 (701%) to 2024 (51%). Can they appeal a terminal accreditation?

@MixedAnimals77 are you able to shed any light or push us in a direction for searching-wise? 👀👀👀

 

[battie]

Get your sleep before you get to digging!

I don't sleep extra for these shifts 🤣 I just go in guns ablazing and hope for the best.

Accredited veterinary colleges

Accredited Veterinary Colleges

www.avma.org

As of January, it looks like Tuskegee gets to stay on provisional accreditation *for now*. They will likely need to to have a re-eval in June by the COE. I imagine at that time, they will be told next steps if the April testing cohort is deficient.

Is Tuskegee part of VMCAS for the current cycle?

 

[vampyrica]

Is Tuskegee part of VMCAS for the current cycle?

Tuskegee accepted students for the c/o 2029. I'm wondering if the COE will take a visit earlier than June in order to make a decision on whether or not they can accept students for the 2025-2026 cycle. OR if they would just be pulled off the VMCAS list while the program materials are open.

 

[battie]

Tuskegee accepted students for the c/o 2029

Then I imagine Tuskegee is off the chopping block until later this year. Since the testing window is in April and results come in May, I imagine June is the earliest

 

[pp9]

I had heard from someone who knows someone at Tuskegee that they will officially be losing their accreditation due to the continuously low NAVLE rates despite their efforts to address their deficiencies. Has anyone else heard this? They've been on probation since 2022, the scores dropped from 2021 (701%) to 2024 (51%). Can they appeal a terminal accreditation?

Tuskegee accepted students for the c/o 2029. I'm wondering if the COE will take a visit earlier than June in order to make a decision on whether or not they can accept students for the 2025-2026 cycle. OR if they would just be pulled off the VMCAS list while the program materials are open.

I don't think the decision can be appealed, they'd have to request a reevaluation and prove all deficiencies were addressed (so an appeal doesn't really make sense in this context, I guess).

What's interesting is that if a site visit happens in June and they do fall to terminal accreditation...could mean they can't start the c/o 2029 based on this: "To maintain terminal accreditation status, the college must: immediately cease enrollment of additional students; commit adequate resources to complete the education of currently enrolled students..."

So it could all be down to timing of when students actually enroll in classes I guess, if they are being that literal? I have vague memories of not actually enrolling for my first semester at Illinois until mid to late summer despite being accepted in March (my memory may be failing me here, though), so if that's similar for Tuskegee, this implies that 2029 could be screwed. What about waitlisted students that make it off the list in July, so would enroll later? This is uncharted territory honestly, I don't believe any US vet school has ever fallen to terminal status before. If by enrolling they mean starting classes, then it's even more likely that c/o 2029 wouldn't get to start classes if Tuskegee dropped down in June. Not trying to incite panic, but this is how it's reading to me.

Would be worth watching Cambridge from afar and seeing how RCVS handles things too, if their drama unfolds before Tuskegee's. Last I read, their last accreditation visit was pretty abysmal (failed something like 2/3 of the criteria).

 

[MixedAnimals77]

@MixedAnimals77 are you able to shed any light or push us in a direction for searching-wise? 👀👀👀

I am no longer on COE but yes based on accreditation things I forsee basically 100% them getting placed on terminal accreditation status if it has not been done already. There is an appeals proscess. However they failed the Navle standard which is a hard and fast number amongst many other issues the college was/is facing. How they could possibly successfully appeal I wouldnt have the slightest clue given its hard numbers they failed and not something more trivial per say.
It's sad but given the issues it is in the best interest of students to place them on terminal status. Unfortunately the issues for tuskeegee extend beyond the vet school and extended into the university as a whole including embezzlement which doesn't help things at the college level.

As PP eluded to I believe this is the first school in at least recent hx to be placed on terminal accreditation. There are procedures outlined but exactly how the cookie crumbles is left to be seen. Current students will be continued and allowed to sit for navle come their graduation year. Im sure coe is having a special session around officially placing them on terminal accreditation and what next steps are. How exactly that falls out is tbd-ie does the school keep eating the expense to provide education for these students to try and pass navle vs placing those students in other coe accredited programs and helping with costs. Alot I think is yet to be seen.

 

[Tech_Penguin]

isn’t their next accreditation visit in two years?

 

[battie]

isn’t their next accreditation visit in two years?

Why wait if the class of 2025 has a below 80% NAVLE pass rate