Wayne State University part 02

[sairam84]

Hello Everyone,
I am starting at Wayne as MS1 this fall, this thread has been very helpful. I had a quick question about the White Coat ceremony, where does it take place and how many people are we allowed to bring? I could not find any information on Wayne's website. I will really appreciate if you all can help me out. Thanks...looking forward to starting at Wayne!!!

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[JoeCool]

Hello Everyone,
I am starting at Wayne as MS1 this fall, this thread has been very helpful. I had a quick question about the White Coat ceremony, where does it take place and how many people are we allowed to bring? I could not find any information on Wayne's website. I will really appreciate if you all can help me out. Thanks...looking forward to starting at Wayne!!!

Last year it was in Jaffar and Blue Auditoriums in Scott Hall, and we were allowed 2 guest tickets.

 

[fun8stuff]

anyone know if the match list of where everyone matched is available yet???

 

[tybalt]

anyone know if the match list of where everyone matched is available yet???

I haven't seen it yet -- I thought it was usually out by now. Hmm.

 

[tybalt]

Well, looking back to 2008 -- it looks like the list wasn't posted until the beginning of April, so I guess they aren't running late... we'll just have to wait. Trust in the good times, no matter how long it takes! Now Break!

 

[dandelionwisps]

i've seen a hard copy of the list floating around in scott hall...

 

[dandelionwisps]

hey everyone,

me and my roommate are rising second year students and we're looking for a third roommate. we have an apartment in royal oak that is pretty fantastic. we're not in the apartment that much but we do like to come home to relax at the end of a long day of hard studying. ideally we're looking for another female roommate. we would like someone who can clean up after themselves esp in the common areas, kitchen and bathroom. we're pretty nice people and would love to get to know you! here's some more descriptions:

what: 3 bedroom apartment, 1.5 baths. your room would have it's own bathroom (toilet and sink), and the shower/bath is in the other bathroom just outside your room. living and dining area are large. we have a couch/tv area set up and a ping pong table as our study table. everyone loves the pingpong table.

where: 12 mile and campbell road. it's about a minute to get to I-75 and 15 minute door to door for me to get to school. very very convenient. downtown royal oak is 4 minutes away, with coffee shops and such to study at. i'm on main st all the time.

who: me and my roommate are cool people, we think. we're friendly and looking for someone who's nice. as long as you're not completely socially inept, we'll get along fine probably.

when: our 3rd roommate is moving out in 2 weeks, but her lease isn't up until august. we're looking for someone to move in anytime after she's moved out in two weeks and taking over the lease.

why: kuz royal oak is awesome and we'd be awesome roommates!

 

[tybalt]

i've seen a hard copy of the list floating around in scott hall...

Find it and scan/upload it!

 

[TMP-SMX]

I don't remember this on any application. They just want to make sure you don't have some infectious disease pre-existing that you can spread to patients or claim that it was caused during patient contact. You don't really have to tell them anything except that your vaccines, titers, and PPD TB tests are up to date.

 

[m_rivera84]

thanks as always!

 

[mendel121]

Find it and scan/upload it!

Did you see the email? - K. Black is on it, come on guys you can't expect her to get this done in less than two weeks, she has students that she needs to screw over daily, in addition to her other counterproductive activities

 

[FrickenhugeMD]

The match list is out..... As a first year looking at it, I don't know what I'm looking at. It seems like there was alot of fairly competitive specialties represented. What worries me is the fact that only 88% matched.

I wonder how bad its gonna get in 3 years when its my turn

 

[mendel121]

The match list is out..... As a first year looking at it, I don't know what I'm looking at. It seems like there was alot of fairly competitive specialties represented. What worries me is the fact that only 88% matched.

I wonder how bad its gonna get in 3 years when its my turn

Careful, K. Black - in classic K. Black fashion - "recalled" that email, I know there are mistakes in it.

The 88% thing should be troubling - it has a lot to do with how poorly the Office of Student Affairs supports students - wayne policies severely handcuff people going into competative specialties by limiting rotations. If you are going into a competative specialty you have to be your own advocate, don't ever take no for an answer and make sure you find a good advisor even if you have to leave the school to find that person.

 

[FrickenhugeMD]

Careful, K. Black - in classic K. Black fashion - "recalled" that email, I know there are mistakes in it.

The 88% thing should be troubling - it has a lot to do with how poorly the Office of Student Affairs supports students - wayne policies severely handcuff people going into competative specialties by limiting rotations. If you are going into a competative specialty you have to be your own advocate, don't ever take no for an answer and make sure you find a good advisor even if you have to leave the school to find that person.

Hmmm.... Something to definatley consider. Where is a good source to find a good advisor? I've been thinking more and more about some of the competitive specialties, so this is something I need to look out for.

 

[FrickenhugeMD]

Also, why all the hating on KB? I have no experience with her other than all the e-mails she fires out about summer externships. What kinds of things has she done to screw so many of you guys over?

I want some details

 

[tybalt]

In addition to lack of support that seems to happen, also remember that there were definitely people who either applied out of their league and/or did not rank well (some people ranked very few programs, which is just a death sentence). All of this added up led to crappyness for a lot of people.

 

[mendel121]

Hmmm.... Something to definatley consider. Where is a good source to find a good advisor? I've been thinking more and more about some of the competitive specialties, so this is something I need to look out for.

You really just have to contact people - I think that student affairs does have a list by specialty. Talk to them and if you think that they can help you then stay in touch - you really just have to interview people. If you can't find someone at wayne, start looking at the departments at Henry Ford.

Don't wait until March of M3 when the school starts talking to you about the process, by then, you can get quite handcuffed if your not sure about your choice, or aren't sure what you should do to pursue your choice.

 

[mendel121]

In addition to lack of support that seems to happen, also remember that there were definitely people who either applied out of their league and/or did not rank well (some people ranked very few programs, which is just a death sentence). All of this added up led to crappyness for a lot of people.

This is a crappy excuse, if people applied out of their league, one of the reasons it happened is because the student affairs people and the clinical departments do a crappy job of advising (in general certainly not all). You'll notice that some of the competative specialties matched well - like Radiology who have a very supportive chairman in Dr. Smith. Then there are other specialties that did not match well like ortho and neurosurg, in part because the advisors that are available to students don't care to help students. Part of KB's job is to help students find adequate advising, and she refuses to do so. The poor relationship that the administration at WSUSOM has with clinical staff is highlighted by Lynette Harper - who tells people not to get more than 4 letters because we don't want to annoy the physicians. This is in direct contradiction to KB who blames those who did not match for not applying to multiple specialties, how are people supposed to do that if they are told by the ERAS person not to get more than 4 letters, and the relationship is so tenuous that they have to council students on annoying faculty. One thing I learned on the trail, other schools do not have these problems.

I know people very well who had 99's on the steps, lots of research and still didn't match into competative specialties, and ranked across tiers, and enough places - it's their fault they didn't match, something about them was off, but KB and company do nothing to help that

 

[V4Vegetarian]

This is a crappy excuse, if people applied out of their league, one of the reasons it happened is because the student affairs people and the clinical departments do a crappy job of advising (in general certainly not all). You'll notice that some of the competative specialties matched well - like Radiology who have a very supportive chairman in Dr. Smith. Then there are other specialties that did not match well like ortho and neurosurg, in part because the advisors that are available to students don't care to help students. Part of KB's job is to help students find adequate advising, and she refuses to do so. The poor relationship that the administration at WSUSOM has with clinical staff is highlighted by Lynette Harper - who tells people not to get more than 4 letters because we don't want to annoy the physicians. This is in direct contradiction to KB who blames those who did not match for not applying to multiple specialties, how are people supposed to do that if they are told by the ERAS person not to get more than 4 letters, and the relationship is so tenuous that they have to council students on annoying faculty. One thing I learned on the trail, other schools do not have these problems.

I know people very well who had 99's on the steps, lots of research and still didn't match into competative specialties, and ranked across tiers, and enough places - it's their fault they didn't match, something about them was off, but KB and company do nothing to help that

I can't say that I know very much about the application process or the amount of support Wayne students get from the administration when it comes to competitive residencies, but I was completely flabbergasted after finding out that a good friend of mine - who not only managed to get his Ph.D along with the M.D. and pretty much did ridiculously well across the board - didn't match!!! I am speechless. I guess I was even more speechless after reading K.B's email rationalizing that the reason for the low match rate must be the international and D.O. students who are taking away all our spots.

 

[cupotea]

I can't say that I know very much about the application process or the amount of support Wayne students get from the administration when it comes to competitive residencies, but I was completely flabbergasted after finding out that a good friend of mine - who not only managed to get his Ph.D along with the M.D. and pretty much did ridiculously well across the board - didn't match!!! I am speechless. I guess I was even more speechless after reading K.B's email rationalizing that the reason for the low match rate must be the international and D.O. students who are taking away all our spots.

what did he/she apply for?

 

[cupotea]

this is absolutely ridiculous!! as a rising M3 in a few months, what can we do to avoid falling into The KB Hole (for lack of a better phrase)?? Take matters into our out hands (as in, seek out your own advisors?). Where is the line between what we're in control of and limitations as a student part of the system at wayne?

 

[mendel121]

I don't want to discourage too much - better than 9/10 of you will match without trouble - my only point is that you have to be your own advocate - if you see a problem, or feel one, don't give up until you get a satisfactory answer. The bottomline is that there are too many students and not enough staff, that is why there are problems. Find an advisor that is willing to help you decide where to apply, that is willing to go over your application with you and your personal statement. Don't settle for an and advisor just because they are the chairman, find someone you can work with. If your having doubts, go to Dr. Roe, go to your councelor, go to one of the other councelors if your more comfortable, don't let their apparent indifference put you off, just be diligent and you will do great, in spite of KB. For gods sake don't go to KB with problems, find someone else.

 

[fun8stuff]

Dr. Smith rocks... if you are at all interested in radiology, seek him out and talk with him. We is a very strong student advocate. There are actually a few radiologists that are good to talk with if you are interested in radiology.

My suggestions on how to match in your desired specialty would be look at 1 or 2 years match lists and email those students who matched in your desired specialty and ask them how they did it/general advice. You should probably do this some time during third year (whenever you know what you want to do). Who was their advisor/mentor? Who wrote their letters? Ask them what type of scores/grades is needed for the specialty. Be candid about your grades/scores/experiences with your advisor and ask them what your chances are of matching in the specialty. Ask them what they look for when they interview candidates. Consider doing a research month in July of 4th year with your mentor. Ask the matched residents what things were important during the interviews- what did they get asked about.... what did perceive as strengths in their application that programs liked. What kind of qualities should you be emulating in your application. What qualities do programs look for? Then, try to emulate and make yourself look like those matched students and the students your advisor describes.

I would say the next thing would be to be honest with yourself and your chances. Always have a backup. Apply to prelims, transitional years, or a second less competitive specialty. The people I talked to who had to scamble did not have much support and KB came off as blaming the students for their misfortunes. Regardless of what the truth was, this was certiainly not appropriate. I was not there... so I don't know exactly what happened.

However, I can tell you, if you want to be successful, you are going to have to be active about finding out what you have to do, as mendel said. I never had any personal issues with the counselors or administration.... in fact, I had a death and illness in my family while submitting ERAS/interviewing/studying for step2ck and they were very accommodating for my situation. However, I did not receive the best advice regarding how to obtain a spot for my specialty... in fact, a few times I were told things that were just plain wrong.

 

[tybalt]

It's also pretty crappy to put all the blame on the school. People definitely need to take responsibility for themselves. I'm sure that some people were misguided and I definitely know some who just for unknown reasons did not match (stellar scores and application), but I do know of a few particular people who just chose not to listen to reason from administrators or friends.

I think the important lesson is to do as Fun8 has said and be sure to not take your advice from 1 place. Your best advice will probably come from those who work in the fields in which you are interested -- talk to residency program directors/associate directors and the like. They know what residencies are looking for because they do it every year. Talk to PGY1's in the field you want to apply since they just went through the process. Take all advice with a grain of salt. And, as Fun8 said, be honest with yourself and apply to backups if you are working to be in a super-competitive specialty or are on the bottom half of applicants. Also apply to and interview at more programs than you think you need.

Hopefully this year was just a fluke and everything will work out well next year. Good luck to the current M3's!

 

[mendel121]

It's also pretty crappy to put all the blame on the school. People definitely need to take responsibility for themselves.

As I said above - it is my fault I didn't match, I am ultimately responsible for me. I sensed a problem, reached out to KB on three occasions - was ignored without an email response twice, and told sorry I can't help you the third time. It's my fault I didn't match, no one's fault but mine, but the school didn't help, I think I said that before.

 

[tybalt]

As I said above - it is my fault I didn't match, I am ultimately responsible for me. I sensed a problem, reached out to KB on three occasions - was ignored without an email response twice, and told sorry I can't help you the third time. It's my fault I didn't match, no one's fault but mine, but the school didn't help, I think I said that before.

I am very sorry to hear that you didn't match -- I imagine that must be very difficult. I certainly was not talking about you in particular, just about a few other people I know who are/were not in the same boat as you.

I think we are clearly on the same page, more or less

I truly hope everything works out well for you in the next year.

 

[VenusLux]

I was wondering how people manage doing research during the clinical years? How much time do you put in and how long are your projects? How do you find a project you like and that you know you'll get published doing?

I like research, but I'm interested in doing a quick project for now.

 

[tybalt]

I was wondering how people manage doing research during the clinical years? How much time do you put in and how long are your projects? How do you find a project you like and that you know you'll get published doing?

I like research, but I'm interested in doing a quick project for now.

I hope somebody has an answer to this question... I only did research between 1st and 2nd years through the Beaumont externship program.

 

[oldjeeps]

I was wondering how people manage doing research during the clinical years?

lots of motivation and a willingness to have less than a minimal life

How much time do you put in and how long are your projects?

that will depend on the project

How do you find a project you like and

First you have to have a bit of an idea as to what sort of project you want to do... that should at least narrow down if you should be talking to the clinical folks in the hospitals or the bench based folks in scott hall.
Then start looking at what sort of research interest people have and compare that to your interests. Then start making some calls/e-mails.

that you know you'll get published doing?

You don't. that is never set in stone. regardless of if it is a short part-time project or if it is your full time career.

I like research, but I'm interested in doing a quick project for now.

I used to think that I liked research now it is a hated hurdle that my program tells me that I have to clear.

 

[fun8stuff]

I was wondering how people manage doing research during the clinical years? How much time do you put in and how long are your projects? How do you find a project you like and that you know you'll get published doing?

I like research, but I'm interested in doing a quick project for now.

between years 1 and 2 you can either do an externship program at one of the local hospitals or you there is a summer research program funded by the alumni association. I did the latter... it involved writing a short proposal, doing the research, writing an abstract, and presenting it at wsu research day (if you are lucky you may also be able to submit the abstract to a journal). During years 3 and 4 you can use an elective month as research. I did the month in July of MS4 and used that month to get a lot of the grunt work done. I have continued to work on stuff though on and off since then and in May I will presenting the abstract at a conference. There is no guarantee you will publish or get your name on anything, especailly given the short amount of time. I think the general rule is that clinical projects are faster and you are more likely to get something out of them in the timeframe that you have. They are easier and require less of your time, and are not looked upon as favorably as bench research... but it's better than nothing.

To find a mentor/PI you need to look at your interests and then find out from student affairs people who do research in these areas. You have to be frank when you meet them... you would like a small project that you can contribute something meaningful to and that can easily be completed in 4-10 weeks so that you can hopefully get an abstract or presentation from. One thing you can do is pubmed search and see how many abstracts the person is submitting and if they put med students names on them (or research techs names). Hopefully this person will be familiar with a med students time schedule, publishes a lot of abstracts (several a year), and willing to to put students names on them. I followed these rules and they seemed to have worked for me. I was also lucky to have great mentors that understood that having a publication was important to my residency application. I know a couple people's names that do radiology and oncology research fit into these criteria. PM me if interested.

 

[fun8stuff]

I used to think that I liked research now it is a hated hurdle that my program tells me that I have to clear.

this seems to be the rule for me: i tend to like stuff until someone tells me i have to do it....

 

[atengnr]

Hello all. Im a nontrad class of 2013. Looking for places students live near campus (walking distance) and in Royal Oak.

Any info is appreciated.

 

[fun8stuff]

Hello all. Im a nontrad class of 2013. Looking for places students live near campus (walking distance) and in Royal Oak.

Any info is appreciated.

This is actually something that has been discussed quite a bit.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search.php?searchid=10392382

Click "search this thread" toward the top right of the thread and search for "where to live".

 

[atengnr]

This is actually something that has been discussed quite a bit.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search.php?searchid=10392382

Click "search this thread" toward the top right of the thread and search for "where to live".

Thanks for the info. Can anyone provide thoughts on which places near campus the med students typically stay? Anyone go for the dorms?

Thanks.

 

[ksav]

Thanks for the info. Can anyone provide thoughts on which places near campus the med students typically stay? Anyone go for the dorms?

Thanks.

When it comes to living downtown the three that most people live at are:
1. Riverfront - nicer, right off of M-10 and the people mover. It's the nicest of the 3
2. Lafayette Towers/Pavilion - right near Greektown, 2 exits from school. Mid-range in quality, and cost.
3. University Towers - 1 block from school, university housing, cheap (not without reason, in my opinion)... but allows you to walk to school.

There's also Studio One, it's right off Woodward (1 block from school), and nicer. If you want to be within walking distance of school I'd recommend this one over UT.

Some other options: The Ellington (lofts above a Starbucks 3 blocks from school), there's some condos off Woodward right by Stadium district that are nice (I know some people walk from there in nice weather).

 

[oldjeeps]

Thanks for the info. Can anyone provide thoughts on which places near campus the med students typically stay? Anyone go for the dorms?

Thanks.

As a non-trad would you REALLY want to stay in the dorms? Think about that one for a bit...

Best bet is to just accept the fact that you are most likely going to have to drive and then find the area that will work best for what you want. I would suggest expanding your horizons beyond right around Scott Hall and RO.
Consider the options downtown (along the river). Consider the other 'burbs (FWIW the East side treated me well)

 

[fun8stuff]

As a non-trad would you REALLY want to stay in the dorms? Think about that one for a bit...

yeah, the college coeds are not exactly the same as the ones you see on the commercials for girls gone wild,

 

[TMP-SMX]

95% of the class streams lectures from home on a daily basis. You can live far away and deal with a commute if you want. Hell I live in Rochester 40+ minutes away.

 

[xylem29]

Guys - I have a question about clerkship at Wayne.

How much responsibility/work do you get as a clerk?

Can anyone describe what a typical rotation is like, like what you do, hours, etc.

 

[dancinjenn]

Guys - I have a question about clerkship at Wayne.

How much responsibility/work do you get as a clerk?

Can anyone describe what a typical rotation is like, like what you do, hours, etc.

You need to be more specific. Some rotations will be as little as 30 hours a week, while others will max out at over 100. Pick a subject and we can wax poetic.

Responsibility is completely based on your willingess to put yourself out there and ask for it.

 

[tybalt]

You need to be more specific. Some rotations will be as little as 30 hours a week, while others will max out at over 100. Pick a subject and we can wax poetic.

Responsibility is completely based on your willingess to put yourself out there and ask for it.

I never had any of these, definitely pushed the 80 hr, often going a bit over, but never coming close to 100 let alone above. I can only imagine trauma surg doing this. If people are having rotations like this, I don't think the school would be too fond of it.

 

[oldjeeps]

IIRC med students are under the same duty hour restrictions that residents are... so capped at 80hrs/week averaged over 4 weeks.

As for responsibility on a clerkship, like many other aspects of medical education that is highly team dependent, with a small measure depending on how much responsibility you ask for/demand.

 

[fun8stuff]

I never had any of these, definitely pushed the 80 hr, often going a bit over, but never coming close to 100 let alone above. I can only imagine trauma surg doing this. If people are having rotations like this, I don't think the school would be too fond of it.

Everything is variable.... medicine is like 40-60 hrs (you get H&Ps, residents repeat), surgery is like 60-100 hrs (H&Ps that residents repeat, get to do some suturing, foleys, NGs, scut), neuro 40 hrs (observe, H&Ps), psych 30-40 hrs (some histories, mostly observe), peds 40-60 hrs (H&Ps, residents repeat), family 40-50 hrs (H&Ps and observe, resident or attending repeats), obgyn 60-80hrs (pelvic exam, H&Ps, deliver, suture, foley).

Most of the time you will have very little REAL responsibility. You are playing doctor. You may be doing the same things as the interns and residents, but there will always be a resident or attending repeating what you do. It is set up so that patient care does not depend on med students (med student education depends on the patients), but this is not to say you cannot meaningfully contribute to patient care by working hard and getting good H&Ps. Also, depending on the resident and attending, they may give you more "responsibility" as you gain their trust (if you show them that you are competent). But, in my experience, this "responsibility" is still very limited.... but some med students seem to really eat it up....

On a side note, I am finishing up med school with EM and have been "allowed" to do more "stuff" than any other rotation and I actually kind of like it.... too bad I didn't take EM earlier.

 

[xylem29]

Hi, I just wanted to know if Wayne's clerkship experience will be comparable to the Canadian experience. I have heard different things about clerskhip in the US system (US clerks don't get to do as much, with a few schools being the exception), but have heard that Wayne's clerkship is one of the best in the country - I would be choosing schools based on the clinical training during MS3 and MS4.

Here's one example of a student's experience during clerkship from a Canadian school:

It depends on the rotation. You are not ever on call by yourself...meaning either a resident or a staff is around for you to ask questions. But you do not "follow them around".

So...for most rotations at Ottawa the clerk is first call. Meaning if there are any floor issues, you go up and assess and come up with a plan. If you are able to complete said plan by yourself you do it (for example in internal you can order CXR, ECGs, basic bloodwork etc). So, if someone is complaining of nausea you can write the order for gravol etc. In instances where you cannot manage the situation, you call your resident/staff (if no resident is on with you) - usually at least with some kind of plan cause they will ask you what you want to do. The other thing that you do while on call....is admissions. In this case the ER will have already called your resident/staff who would have been given some kind of hx on the pt (they may or may not have gone to see the pt) and agreed to admit the pt to their service. As the clerk...you will then need to go get the complete hx, do the physical exam, review whatever tests have already been done, and write the admission orders. After you are done all these things you call your resident to review with you. At any time, if you feel your pt is unstable you call your resident/staff!

Obviously some things are rotation dependent...so on surgical rotations you are also assisting in the OR when needed, with obs you are delivering babies and assiting with c-sections etc.

So after reading that - I noticed that you are given a lot of responsibility and just wanted to know if it is similar at Wayne.

 

[fun8stuff]

Hi, I just wanted to know if Wayne's clerkship experience will be comparable to the Canadian experience. I have heard different things about clerskhip in the US system (US clerks don't get to do as much, with a few schools being the exception), but have heard that Wayne's clerkship is one of the best in the country - I would be choosing schools based on the clinical training during MS3 and MS4.

Here's one example of a student's experience during clerkship from a Canadian school:

It depends on the rotation. You are not ever on call by yourself...meaning either a resident or a staff is around for you to ask questions. But you do not "follow them around".

So...for most rotations at Ottawa the clerk is first call. Meaning if there are any floor issues, you go up and assess and come up with a plan. If you are able to complete said plan by yourself you do it (for example in internal you can order CXR, ECGs, basic bloodwork etc). So, if someone is complaining of nausea you can write the order for gravol etc. In instances where you cannot manage the situation, you call your resident/staff (if no resident is on with you) - usually at least with some kind of plan cause they will ask you what you want to do. The other thing that you do while on call....is admissions. In this case the ER will have already called your resident/staff who would have been given some kind of hx on the pt (they may or may not have gone to see the pt) and agreed to admit the pt to their service. As the clerk...you will then need to go get the complete hx, do the physical exam, review whatever tests have already been done, and write the admission orders. After you are done all these things you call your resident to review with you. At any time, if you feel your pt is unstable you call your resident/staff!

Obviously some things are rotation dependent...so on surgical rotations you are also assisting in the OR when needed, with obs you are delivering babies and assiting with c-sections etc.

So after reading that - I noticed that you are given a lot of responsibility and just wanted to know if it is similar at Wayne.

its probably about the same. if i were in your shoes i would make the decision based on where i want to live in the future. if you want to live in the US in the future, then go to wayne... if not, go to ottawa.

 

[oldjeeps]

Hi, I just wanted to know if Wayne's clerkship experience will be comparable to the Canadian experience. I have heard different things about clerskhip in the US system (US clerks don't get to do as much, with a few schools being the exception), but have heard that Wayne's clerkship is one of the best in the country - I would be choosing schools based on the clinical training during MS3 and MS4.

Here's one example of a student's experience during clerkship from a Canadian school:

It depends on the rotation. You are not ever on call by yourself...meaning either a resident or a staff is around for you to ask questions. But you do not "follow them around".

So...for most rotations at Ottawa the clerk is first call. Meaning if there are any floor issues, you go up and assess and come up with a plan. If you are able to complete said plan by yourself you do it (for example in internal you can order CXR, ECGs, basic bloodwork etc). So, if someone is complaining of nausea you can write the order for gravol etc. In instances where you cannot manage the situation, you call your resident/staff (if no resident is on with you) - usually at least with some kind of plan cause they will ask you what you want to do. The other thing that you do while on call....is admissions. In this case the ER will have already called your resident/staff who would have been given some kind of hx on the pt (they may or may not have gone to see the pt) and agreed to admit the pt to their service. As the clerk...you will then need to go get the complete hx, do the physical exam, review whatever tests have already been done, and write the admission orders. After you are done all these things you call your resident to review with you. At any time, if you feel your pt is unstable you call your resident/staff!

Obviously some things are rotation dependent...so on surgical rotations you are also assisting in the OR when needed, with obs you are delivering babies and assiting with c-sections etc.

So after reading that - I noticed that you are given a lot of responsibility and just wanted to know if it is similar at Wayne.

1. different countries = different systems = different payment structure
2. with US payment structure I doubt there are ANY med students writing ANY orders that get acted on without being cosigned by someone (resident/attending) with a medical license... if for no reason other than billing purposes.
3. fully aggree with fun8stuff. consider where you want to practice and let that guide your decision (along with the $ considerations - OOS at WSU-SOM isn't cheap)

 

[xylem29]

Hey thanks guys.

Can clerks even write their own orders - I was under the impression that this student meant they would write the order but then their resident would sign off on it.

 

[tybalt]

Hey thanks guys.

Can clerks even write their own orders - I was under the impression that this student meant they would write the order but then their resident would sign off on it.

This depends on the hospital. The hospitals I rotated at that used computer ordering did not usually allow students to order, but sometimes my resident would be signed on to his/her computer and would tell me what to order and I would do it through theirs. Other computer systems will let the student put in orders (like the VA) and the resident has to cosign under their own name. Some hospitals still use paper systems (Oakwood) and you can write an order, but someone else also has to sign it.

 

[dancinjenn]

IIRC med students are under the same duty hour restrictions that residents are... so capped at 80hrs/week averaged over 4 weeks.

As for responsibility on a clerkship, like many other aspects of medical education that is highly team dependent, with a small measure depending on how much responsibility you ask for/demand.

The key here is AVERAGE OVER 4 WEEKS. Creative hours are still practiced at some institutions - even though YES they are "illegal." For example, on my trauma surgery month I worked 70 hours a week - every week the same - tada. On my Harper A month I worked the following:

Week 1 - 110 hrs
Week 2 - 100
Week 3 - 80
Week 4 - 35
Total 325
Avg per week 81.25

Trust me I remember this because I had all of my 4 calls bunched into the first 2 weeks, I worked 13 days straight before I even had one off that month...and our exam was in the last week so that is what gave me the low hours in week 4 - so my average was fine. However I did put in a couple of 100 hour weeks.

 

[xylem29]

So what would you guys say about Wayne overall - as in the pros and the cons?

I would ideally like to live in Canada but I'm sure you guys have plenty of Canadians in your class and you'd know that sometimes we do not go over to the US by choice (unless it's like a Top 5 school).

If I do have to study in the US though, and I am lucky enough to choose between schools, I'd pick the one where the clerkship is strong - the PGY-1s coming from said school would be quite adept while PGY-1s from schools where you don't get to do much would be weaker. Overall then, Canadian PDs would probably be familiar with certain schools and the differences in the strength of the candidates; I'd like to be coming from a school that has a reputation for graduating strong applicants who are already adept at some of the basic procedures and skills. Just saying because I have heard there is variability amongst PGY-1s in terms of how much they know how to do (I'm assuming this is due to differences in their 3rd and 4th years and how much they go to do).

Major factors for me would be proximity to home (from Detroit I could drive home instead of flying), cost of living, safety, and education.

Seems like out of all the schools I'm aiming for, Wayne, although the most expensive in terms of tuition, may be the best choice in the long-run.

Oh, I have one more question - what are the class dynamics like? Cohesive family, competitive like undergrad, etc.