Weird/Awkward situation

[Apparition]

Is there actually a debate going on here about whether it's wrong to cheat or not?

Wow. So much for those physicians holding themselves to a high standard of ethics.

No, there is no debate. Everyone agrees that it's wrong to cheat. The question was what to do when a Friend cheats off you. It's an integrity vs. loyalty debate

There was a thread recently (not sure if it was in pre-allo) that asked something like this: If you have a patient with a significant family history of breast cancer whose insurance only allows a mamogram once in a few years unless a doctor find a lump that needs investigation. You don't find a lump. Do you just comply with the insurance policy and send her off, giving up her chance of early detection or do you lie and say you are suspicious of something and get her a mamogram. I probably forgot some things but that's approximately what the question was. I think it's a very similar type of issue.

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[LucidSplash]

I disagree. There are several people posting here that say that "cheating is no big deal" or seem to be equivocating over what constitutes cheating.

Honestly, I feel a little ill.

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

Apparition, I think the issue of loyalty is covered when you don't turn them in to the professor. Even that is debatable. Letting them continue to cheat after you have found out makes you complicit.

In the case of the mammo, I would advise them to scrounge up the $100 it costs on average. That to me would be better than falsifying a pts chart.

 

[DrBowtie]

I encourage you to go ahead and let people cheat off of you, Brett. And take the chance that you get kicked out of school. Less competition for me!

It wasn't about getting caught or cheating being moral. It is about confronting the friend. Thats the advice the OP was looking for.

 

[unicorn06]

premeds! your kinds never cease to amaze me you are the kind that would not share answers to a really hard assignment because youwant the sole praise from the professor! wow
To the OP - Who cares, you got your good grade, she got her "good(If she calls a C that)" grade...keep your friendship. It is worth more than getting pissed because she cheated from a stupid exam. Personally, if my friend was struggling in a class (she has taken the damn thing 4/5 times - she obviously doesnt get it) , i would love her to cheat off me...i dont care.

Why do you think she deserves to pass the class if she doesn't understand the material? Maybe she should get a tutor or read the book or attend lecture so that she can pass. I don't think anyone who doesn't understand the material well enough to pass a class deserves to pass the class.

 

[Pretty POHA]

Not to mention what the situation says about your friendship. My friends are people I respect highly, and I value them as people, advisers, confidantes - in addition to bar-hoppers and sky-divers. One of my friends cheats off me? I know they don't share my values or the emphasis I place on honesty, integrity, and hard work, and I reconsider that friendship, seriously.

Ditto.
I'm not friends with cheaters. I expect the people that I put my energy into to hold themselves to as high standards as I hold myself to. You want to argue loyalty or whatnot-- but it's not about loyalty. It's about respect. I wouldn't necessarily turn my friend in, but I sure as heck am not going to be okay with them cheating.

 

[robotsonic]

My friend told me that she got a C, the highest grade she's ever gotten in her 4 or 5 times (I lost count) of taking biochem. She told me that the reason she did so well is that she partially cheated off of me.

No one has addressed the real issue here... I'm not as appalled by the cheating as by the stupidity of your friend. Is she ******ed? No, seriously? Come on, anyone taking biochem FIVE TIMES should be able to at least get a B! WTF is wrong with her?

 

[Pretty POHA]

No, there is no debate. Everyone agrees that it's wrong to cheat. The question was what to do when a Friend cheats off you. It's an integrity vs. loyalty debate

How about a "Friends wouldn't compromise your success (by putting you in a situation that could get you kicked out) vs. Loyalty" debate?

Or a "I worked my butt off to get good grades vs. You worked REAL hard to see what was on my test so you could get good grades, too" debate?

Nada. A grade is a reflection of how much effort you put into the class and how well you learned to answer in the way the professor wanted. Someone that doesn't earn their own grade doesn't deserve the credit on their transcripts. I don't care if it's my MOTHER trying to pass. I'll study with a person, and I'm okay with quizzing each other or whatever it takes for us to both be prepared. But someone that doesn't take the time to prepare doesn't deserve the grade.

 

[45408]

I would make it obvious the next time by sitting on the opposite side of the room.

 

[angietron3000]

This reminds me:

In my physiology class, it was 30 questions: multiple choice.

I suspected this guy was cheating off of my scantron (we had the same test colors and he kept peering over my shoulder).

I decided I'd circle my test answers on the test, then bubble in the scantron last. Nevermind, I thought... I'll just bubble in WRONG answers and erase them right before the test is over, then fill in my scantron answers.


BINGO.. I didn't see him again after the test results came out.


OH, and those of you that think we are a little too anal about cheating: Imagine someone that cheated on tests all throughout college and medical school being your doctor... Do they really know the necessary concepts?? Extreme case, but still.. you have to draw the line somewhere.

hahaha!! I did the same thing once in high school! This girl was obviously cheating off me so I filled in the wrong answers, waited for her to turn it in then corrected them all. Then she confronted me when we got the results back and was so pissed off!!

 

[tupac_don]

hahaha!! I did the same thing once in high school! This girl was obviously cheating off me so I filled in the wrong answers, waited for her to turn it in then corrected them all. Then she confronted me when we got the results back and was so pissed off!!

You are very crafty. But you did teach her a lesson she will never forget. Very interesting story.

 

[Shredder]

Asherlauph is right. If she's caught, YOU'D be in trouble as well for violating the Honor System. We're explicitly told that cheating off others and letting others cheat off you is one and the same thing. I wonder why your friend told you she cheated? Does she expect you to understand and let her cheat next time as well?!! I'd tell her straight up that what she's doing is wrong, puts YOU in danger, and politely suggest that she cheat off someone else next time if she's that desperate to pass.

simple--claim ignorance. the burden of proof is on them, theyll never be able to pin you unless you are in fact helping a person cheat. about confronting the person--sure, you can say for practical reasons that you would prefer that no cheating go on from now on, lest theres any trouble. no need for moral lessons

 

[Nikki2002]

well when i took the mcat we were in a small lecture hall and i could have swore that the person sitting behind me was cheating. so i bubbled in a bunch of random wrong answers and then when there was only a few minutes left i madly erased all my answers and then rebubbled. only i think the person behind me erased their answers too and copied my answers again as i was rebubbling. that makes me so mad!

 

[dilated]

much like the old internet rule that whenever a discussion invokes hitler it should be killed, I think there should be a similar rule for whenever a premed invokes "you're going to be SAVING LIVES" as any form of reasoning. sadly, someone is not going to transplant the heart into the intestines because they cheated when it came to memorizing the krebs cycle. physicians are not the center of the universe and a dishonest politician or business leader will probably do far more damage than an incompetent physician. please never use this reasoning again. thx.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Ditto.
I'm not friends with cheaters. I expect the people that I put my energy into to hold themselves to as high standards as I hold myself to. You want to argue loyalty or whatnot-- but it's not about loyalty. It's about respect. I wouldn't necessarily turn my friend in, but I sure as heck am not going to be okay with them cheating.

I understand the sentiment...sort of. Is cheating bad? Yes. Is it a friend-terminating event? Probably not, unless it becomes pathological. It's annoying, it's dishonest, and it's not fair. But nobody's perfect, and to say you wouldn't be friends with someone because they glanced at your test one or two times seems a bit harsh.

It's not like it's a black and white question between friends and integrity. Just start covering your tests with a blank sheet of paper, or if that doesn't work, just bring it up nonchalantly: "Dude, not cool, cut it out." No need to make a big deal about it.

Oh, and letting someone else look off your test is most definitely cheating. Don't try any of this "I'm not actively participating" crap. If you leave your **** out in the open, especially if you know someone's trying to cheat off you, you're as guilty as they are. To use a medical analogy, that's like saying there's a difference between withdrawing treatment and withholding it. It may seem different at first, but philosophically it's the same deal. Remember, it takes two to tango.

P.S. It takes some serious cojones to blatantly tell someone you cheated off them. In my opinion, that's almost like one of those "cry for help" pleas, where they're just asking to be turned in.

 

[CTSballer11]

much like the old internet rule that whenever a discussion invokes hitler it should be killed, I think there should be a similar rule for whenever a premed invokes "you're going to be SAVING LIVES" as any form of reasoning. sadly, someone is not going to transplant the heart into the intestines because they cheated when it came to memorizing the krebs cycle. physicians are not the center of the universe and a dishonest politician or business leader will probably do far more damage than an incompetent physician. please never use this reasoning again. thx.

Lol, I wish more premeds had as much common sense as you. To the OP, if someone ever caught your friend cheating on you and you were minding your own business and as shredder said "claimed ignorance" you would not get into any trouble at all. Just mind your business take your test if she copies your paper and is caught, it is her problem not yours. As long as you do not aide her in her cheating then you will be clear of any trouble.

 

[madi]

Agreed. It seems that Friendship is a completely foreign concept to some people. If you feel so used because this person got a C "with your help," then you probably shouldn't call her a friend, just a classmate. I could get annoyed if I saw some random classmate looking at my answers but never a Friend.

This is some of the most disturbing reasoning I've ever seen on SDN. Since when does loyalty trump morality? Would you tromp on every moral belief you ever held if it was a friend that wanted or needed you to do it? Once you do it with something small, how do you ever draw the line?

I sincerely hope that I never have to rely upon anyone that follows this kind of logic. How can you ever trust someone when you know that they'll do any immoral act and violate any code of ethics (so central to medicine) that they pretend to subscribe to just because a friend needs it?

 

[madi]

Lol, I wish more premeds had as much common sense as you. To the OP, if someone ever caught your friend cheating on you and you were minding your own business and as shredder said "claimed ignorance" you would not get into any trouble at all. Just mind your business take your test if she copies your paper and is caught, it is her problem not yours. As long as you do not aide her in her cheating then you will be clear of any trouble.

Au contraire.

I had a friend at UCSB who was accused of cheating after it was discovered that another student had written the same answers as she did on a test. Although my friend knew and swore to the fact that she had been the one whose test was copied, and was not in fact the cheater, the administration had no proof and was thus willing to put them both on academic probation and possibly suspend them. It was only because a TA came to her aid and testified to the faculty that she was innocent that my friend was let off.

 

[Zweihander]

well how dumb are u to blatantly let her cheat off of you? You all in this thread dont even know how to cheat Sit in a position that gives her a good view of your exam and let her take the risk in doing the cheating...while you just sit and finish your exam and act like you dont know she is looking at your paper(keep your eye on your paper the whole time). They cannot penalize you because they have no proof that you were letting her cheat...she's the only one that can get in trouble....
But thats not even the point, the point is that you "premeds" are so ingrained on yourselves that you are willing to let go of a frienship b/c "my friend cheated off me" buhu...get over it...we all cheat and cut corners in some fashion like shredder said. Now i understand why i have friends that are mostly non-premed or bio majors...b/c the majority of them are so full of themselves...

speaking of being "full of oneself..."

It's patently absurd to say that people have no right to want others to earn their grades legitimately, or to claim that one *either* values a friendship *or* will not allow a friend to cheat. How simplistic can you be?

 

[Shredder]

Read "The Cheating Culture" by David Callahan, if you want to get a good handle on the scope of this issue in America. Your views on cheating seem to be well in the minority, not only in this thread, but in America. It's a sad statement on our culture when the dominant attitude about dishonesty is ambivalence.

our GDP is also a statement/manifestation of our culture. bottom line america is king. corruption is much more rampant around the world, ours is the most honest country since day 1. nobody likes tattle tales--in the long run cheating only takes you so far anyway. and once the risk/reward of cheating is no longer favorable it naturally stops unless ppl are foolish

madi if your friend got busted he shouldve sued. guilty until proven innocent is not the american way

 

[tomorrowgirl99]

Wow, I didn't think my question would spark a debate about cheating. I just wondered what everyone else would do in that situation. To answer someone's question, I have studied with her on numerous occasions. I think its a mix of her not grasping the material and her not studying properly. It is probably more of an issue because I'm starting to get the feeling that she is using me. Oh well, I will decide what to do closer to next test.

 

[21JumpStreet]

To the OP:

If your school has an honor code, and you signed a statement committing yourself to that honor code, then you may have a responsibility of reporting her. Now, these types of statements are obviously difficult to enforce, because the only way people to follow them is of their own volition. But, personally (an as always, IMHO) signing your name to something (if you did) should carry a good deal of weight ethically and morally.

Before I get flamed by all the "who cares as long as you don't get caught" people that have posted/will post, I've been out of school for a couple years now, and I've come across more than one individual with a less than stellar attitude towards dishonesty in the workplace and even among friends. These are the sort of individuals who differentiate between where it is and isn't ok to cheat, instead of any sort of philosophical approach to cheating as a whole.

Am I projecting a little on the OP's situation? Probably... but I also now wish I had reported a roommate I had in college because I knew she was a habitual cheater. I didn't and now she's in medical school and I doubt she'll stop, and who knows, that might affect a patient down the line.

Well, if she is cheating in med school, she probably wouldn't do well on the USMLE exam and eventually not end up finishing med school.

 

[Apparition]

This is some of the most disturbing reasoning I've ever seen on SDN. Since when does loyalty trump morality? Would you tromp on every moral belief you ever held if it was a friend that wanted or needed you to do it? Once you do it with something small, how do you ever draw the line?

I sincerely hope that I never have to rely upon anyone that follows this kind of logic. How can you ever trust someone when you know that they'll do any immoral act and violate any code of ethics (so central to medicine) that they pretend to subscribe to just because a friend needs it?

Why do you take this to the extreme? In this situation, we're talking about copying a few answers on a test. Everyone should have their own set of values, regarding friendship and everything else. Mine goes like this, the most important on the top:


Not stealing, killing, or otherwise hurting anyone
.
.
.
.
.
.
Helping a friend
.
.
.
Taking great measures not to let a friend cheat off me

 

[madi]

Why do you take this to the extreme?

It's a slippery slope...

 

[IgweEmeka]

Why do you take this to the extreme? In this situation, we're talking about copying a few answers on a test. Everyone should have their own set of values, regarding friendship and everything else. Mine goes like this, the most important on the top:


Not stealing, killing, or otherwise hurting anyone
.
.
.
.
.
.
Helping a friend
.
.
.
Taking great measures not to let a friend cheat off me

Exactly my point...thanks for pointing this out apparition. People its a stupid test...think about all the tests we have taken as undergrads, does it really matter that your friend got a couple of answers from you on this one test...she obviously didnt get all the answers b/c the op got an A and the friend a C. Let it go....a

 

[little_late_MD]

corruption is much more rampant around the world, ours is the most honest country since day 1.

Well, maybe not the most honest in the world: http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2005/cpi2005.sources.en.html

This link compares the corruption in different countries around the world. It's pretty interesting, and Transparency International is well regarded in academic circles for this work.

 

[gujuDoc]

make sure you never sit next to her during an exam from now on.

Well first off, I would make sure never to sit next to her again. Then I'd tell her that you can't study with her and tell her not to sit near you in the future, because a true friend would not cheat off of you.

 

[gujuDoc]

Not to mention what the situation says about your friendship. My friends are people I respect highly, and I value them as people, advisers, confidantes - in addition to bar-hoppers and sky-divers. One of my friends cheats off me? I know they don't share my values or the emphasis I place on honesty, integrity, and hard work, and I reconsider that friendship, seriously.

My friends are struggling in a class we share? They are all great people, who would be able to tell me that upfront, and as I respect them, I would do all I can to help them out. None of this let-me-just-look-at-your-paper crap.

Agreed with this post.

To those saying to casually let it slip by that her friend cheated off of her, take into account that if someone cheats off of you, you ALSO get in trouble. So its not worth continuing something that could cost you a FF grade in the class and other punishment by the university.

 

[gujuDoc]

Lol, I wish more premeds had as much common sense as you. To the OP, if someone ever caught your friend cheating on you and you were minding your own business and as shredder said "claimed ignorance" you would not get into any trouble at all. Just mind your business take your test if she copies your paper and is caught, it is her problem not yours. As long as you do not aide her in her cheating then you will be clear of any trouble.

Agreed.

BTW, sorry I'm posting post after post, but I just saw this thread and it is like few pages long already.

But this is a good post as so is dilated's post.

However, that said......I wouldn't take the chance with doing anything that may let her cheat off of you in the future because if caught you'll be in trouble too. Not worth the risk.

 

[gujuDoc]

Why do you think she deserves to pass the class if she doesn't understand the material? Maybe she should get a tutor or read the book or attend lecture so that she can pass. I don't think anyone who doesn't understand the material well enough to pass a class deserves to pass the class.

Yes and honestly if you semiunderstand the material you should be able to get at least a C. I think this person doesn't study cuz I know which institution they are at. And at said institution, it is possible to pass in the first try with the curves and all, with some degree of understanding of the material.