What do medical schools look for in "research experience?"

[DoctorOrdinary]

I'm currently a junior at a state university and just started doing research with a graduate student in a faculty's lab. The research itself is based on marine organic chemistry and I had an easy time getting in due to my fish keeping hobby, but it looks like I will just be working on small tasks for the graduate student's research project for 6-7 hours a week and don't know if I'll actually get my name on a publication or anything. Finding a research position is very difficult since people never respond or show much interest in undergrads like myself so I'm really thankful that I was at least able to land this one. If I want to aim for top and mid tier med schools that are inclined a little more towards research, will this type of research experience be good enough given I have their target numbers and appropriate leadership/shadowing/volunteering? Or should I try looking for a lab that is a bit more medically/biologically involved where I might have a shot at getting my name on a publication (while still working at this lab)? Note: I have a 3rd author patient case study publication from a place I shadowed/volunteered at but I'm not sure if it will affect my chances.

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[puahate]

They want to know that you understand the scientific method

 

[DoctorOrdinary]

They want to know that you understand the scientific method

That's what I've been seeing but will my experience (now until next summer) suffice for a "proper" understanding of the scientific method? How do adcoms interpret proper understanding of the scientific method? Will it be just your interest and knowledge in that particular research? Like in poster presentations? Or more of your contributions towards it such as time commitment? It's probably a combination of both but I just want to make sure that I'm in the right direction.

Thank you for the response btw.

 

[deleted887473]

Will you be involved in extensive background reading, designing experiments based on what’s been established in the literature, and developing hypotheses catered to your specific interests?
Will you carry out the experiments and understand why these experiments are designed the way they are, what every step is meant for? Will you encounter problems along the execution and will you learn how to get around them? Will you have to troubleshoot and consider whether the data would be compromised and if so how?
After the experiment is done, will you analyze the data? Will you try to sort through the potentially complex pile of data and make sense of the story behind? Will you be able to draw a conclusion from the process, as well as explain the limitation of the kinds of information you’ve collected? Will you see how your project fit in the grand scheme of the field?

 

[DoctorOrdinary]

Will you be involved in extensive background reading, designing experiments based on what’s been established in the literature, and developing hypotheses catered to your specific interests?
Will you carry out the experiments and understand why these experiments are designed the way they are, what every step is meant for? Will you encounter problems along the execution and will you learn how to get around them? Will you have to troubleshoot and consider whether the data would be compromised and if so how?
After the experiment is done, will you analyze the data? Will you try to sort through the potentially complex pile of data and make sense of the story behind? Will you be able to draw a conclusion from the process, as well as explain the limitation of the kinds of information you’ve collected? Will you see how your project fit in the grand scheme of the field?

So far it seems like I will just be helping out with menial tasks. Hopefully I'll be doing more over the year. Maybe I can get a head start and ask the graduate if I can be more involved in the literature and understand the research to understand the process better? Any advice or experience with this would be appreciated. But in all, your response makes sense and I should definitely ask myself those questions

 

[Lucca]

Even if you are doing menial tasks it is your responsibility to understand why you are doing them, why this expt and not a diff one, etc. When they ask you about your research and you are able to articulate how and why you approached a problem a certain way that will show you understand the scientific method

 

[DameJulie]

Hours, duration, your role (and whether you can explain your research on paper and Interview), possibly PI letter and productivity from your research (i.e. poster, publication, honor/awards)

But don't worry, productivity is not a requirement when applying to med schools.

 

[DoctorOrdinary]

Hours, duration, your role (and whether you can explain your research on paper and Interview), possibly PI letter and productivity from your research (i.e. poster, publication, honor/awards)

But don't worry, productivity is not a requirement when applying to med schools.

I will most likely have around 200 research hours by the time I apply, and twice as much by the time I graduate. Throughout this year, I feel that I will be able to understand exactly what is going on in the lab and hopefully be given the opportunity to do a poster presentation of the work being done.
I'm working with the pHD student and we're getting to know each other really well. I am currently being given training for different chromatography methods and also in queue for 400mhz NMR training. Would it be appropriate to ask for a letter from this person later on after about two semesters of research?The PI sits in his office and I don't know how I'll get to know him if he doesn't see any of my work in the lab. Maybe a letter from the pHD student signed off by the PI? Any advice on establishing good relations will be nice.

 

[DameJulie]

Maybe a letter from the pHD student signed off by the PI? Any advice on establishing good relations will be nice.

This is the better option in my opinion. It's ok not to know the PI well, assuming you work in a big lab with many other students and your PI might not be directly doing research.

 

[ClimbsRox]

In academic research, you are generally expected to drive yourself. If you want to make the most of your experience, involve yourself in the lab. Introduce yourself to the other graduate students. Ask questions about their projects. Attend lab meetings, even if you are not required to as an undergrad. Try to get face time with your PI, even if its asking your graduate student to sit in when they meet face to face so that you can learn more about the research. Often times, the more drive and competency you show, the more you will be able to do. Once you have shown that you can handle the work load, ask if there is a project you can get more deeply involved in, maybe even one of your own. Pipetting solutions for a graduate student is nice little introduction, but if you really want to go to a research-driven school, it will show immediately that that is all you did. If research isn't really your thing though, get your feet wet, get some hours to check off on your application, and get out of the way. There is nothing worse than an undergrad in the lab that clearly is only interested in going to medical school. On the flip side, almost every undergrad in my undergrad lab has left with a first or second author publication in a major journal because they were driven, committed, and put the work in. The ones that weren't got shuffled out the door. Forget what medical schools want, what do you want out of your research?

 

[DoctorOrdinary]

In academic research, you are generally expected to drive yourself. If you want to make the most of your experience, involve yourself in the lab. Introduce yourself to the other graduate students. Ask questions about their projects. Attend lab meetings, even if you are not required to as an undergrad. Try to get face time with your PI, even if its asking your graduate student to sit in when they meet face to face so that you can learn more about the research. Often times, the more drive and competency you show, the more you will be able to do. Once you have shown that you can handle the work load, ask if there is a project you can get more deeply involved in, maybe even one of your own. Pipetting solutions for a graduate student is nice little introduction, but if you really want to go to a research-driven school, it will show immediately that that is all you did. If research isn't really your thing though, get your feet wet, get some hours to check off on your application, and get out of the way. There is nothing worse than an undergrad in the lab that clearly is only interested in going to medical school. On the flip side, almost every undergrad in my undergrad lab has left with a first or second author publication in a major journal because they were driven, committed, and put the work in. The ones that weren't got shuffled out the door. Forget what medical schools want, what do you want out of your research?

This is great advice, I will keep this in mind the next time I'm in the lab.

 

[BabyDaddy]

It seemed to me like research is more of a box to check in the application process. I did quite a bit of actual basic science research as a full time job, got published, etc. Only 1 interviewer actually asked specific questions. The rest just asked something generic like "explain your research experience." If you can explain it in a sentence, no matter your role, you'll probably be fine.

Be well-read in the literature related to your project and understand what the "why". That's enough.

 

[Robin-jay]

It's an opportunity to invent science. Not just herp-derp memorize it.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

As a graduate student, let me remind you that we aren’t dangling a check-box in front of you, especially not to “test” you, or make you miserable.

To be perfectly honest, you probably are fairly forgotten- not in an existential or mean way, but in the way thay you are by no means the center of attention. Or concern.

As I tell all premeds, please remember that research- especially basic research- costs money and training you takes time. And time = money is all too true in research.

So again, this really isn’t about getting YOU into med school. It’s about accomplishing research. All too often, premeds will ghost when they realize how unglamorous the daily research life is, how hard troubleshooting is, etc. That is extremely frustrating to a graduate student or postdoc who has invested time into training you.

So many times, new undergrads go through a period of time where you do menial labor. This isn’t to make you miserable or “see if you got what it takes to get into med school”. It’s about seeing if you GENUINELY have interest and dedication to a lab and doing research before we sink too much time and money into ya.

That said, PIs/postdocs/grad students love nothing more than teaching undergrads about their research, and training them! It’s a joy and honor to be able to train a younger student, especially if they are bright and excited.

And finally, some tips:
1) Show up when you agree to- don’t ghost.
2) Bring a notebook and write down what you are told to do, so you don’t forget as easily. And clarify any steps you are confused about. DON’T continue with something you are uncertain about.
3) Attend lab meetings. Period. (unless you have class, etc)
4) Talk to your grad student about their work, and slowly try to integrate yourself into the lab.
5) ASK your grad student what they expect out of you: hours, write ups, etc. It feels weird but seriously clears up wishy washy issues before they start.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

And more thoughts:

If it feels like you won’t get anywhere further besides washing dishes, remember you can always switch labs after a semester/year. And postbacs programs exist!

 

[Robin-jay]

As a graduate student, let me remind you that we aren’t dangling a check-box in front of you, especially not to “test” you, or make you miserable.

To be perfectly honest, you probably are fairly forgotten- not in an existential or mean way, but in the way thay you are by no means the center of attention. Or concern.

As I tell all premeds, please remember that research- especially basic research- costs money and training you takes time. And time = money is all too true in research.

So again, this really isn’t about getting YOU into med school. It’s about accomplishing research. All too often, premeds will ghost when they realize how unglamorous the daily research life is, how hard troubleshooting is, etc. That is extremely frustrating to a graduate student or postdoc who has invested time into training you.

So many times, new undergrads go through a period of time where you do menial labor. This isn’t to make you miserable or “see if you got what it takes to get into med school”. It’s about seeing if you GENUINELY have interest and dedication to a lab and doing reseaecu before we sink too much time and money into ya.

That said, PIs/postdocs/grad students love nothing more than teaching undergrads about their research, and training them! It’s a joy and honor to be able to train a younger student, especially if they are bright and excited.

And finally, some tips:
1) Show up when you agree to- don’t ghost.
2) Bring a notebook and write down what you are told to do, so you don’t forget as easily. And clarify any steps you are confused about. DON’T continue with something you are uncertain about.
3) Attend lab meetings. Period. (unless you have class, etc)
4) Talk to your grad student about their work, and slowly try to integrate yourself into the lab.
5) ASK your grad student what they expect out of you: hours, write ups, etc. It feels weird but seriously clears up wishy washy issues before they start.

90% of pre-meds were horrendous in my chemistry lab.

It's rare to find a competent pre-med that can do more than memorize.

As a chemistry grad. student, I would cry due to sheer joy when I saw a competent pre-med doing research.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

90% of pre-meds were horrendous in my chemistry lab.

Eh. I try to not be too down on premeds, though the stereotypical ones that cross my path test that resolve...

My other least favorite undergrads were the staunchly “I hate premeds” vErY SeR IoUs pre-PhDs in the lab. Highly confident, inflated ego, etc.

Speaking of chem, that’s where they seemed to concentrate. Lol.

Learning how to do research is an important skill for premeds, though it seems intimidating. I’m always down to help undergrads who don’t have the PhD passion (doing one can be a mistake anyway IMO), or the desire to stick around forever, or who don’t know what to do, so long as they have a good attitude and work ethic haha.

 

[Robin-jay]

Eh. I try to not be too down on premeds, though the stereotypical ones that cross my path test that resolve...

Many of them don't understand the scientific method, have little creativity, and boast rote memorization skills.

Admittedly, maybe 1 in 10 pre-meds that have come through my chemistry research lab have provided me with excellent results.

My other least favorite undergrads were the staunchly “I hate premeds” vErY SeR IoUs pre-PhDs in the lab. Highly confident, inflated ego, etc.

Ya, I have seen these types too. But they are at least valuable in research lab and have more of a novel skill set than pre-meds.

Learning how to do research is an important skill for premeds, though it seems intimidating. I’m always down to help undergrads who don’t have the PhD passion (doing one can be a mistake anyway IMO), or the desire to stick around forever, or who don’t know what to do, so long as they have a good attitude and work ethic haha.

I've taught every type of student. All have their pros and cons. Pre-meds were usually very poor with time management. They would enter the lab once every couple weeks to do an experiment, of sub-par quality, and essentially do little to help the grad. students.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Many of them don't understand the scientific method, have little creativity, and boast rote memorization skills.

Admittedly, maybe 1 in 10 pre-meds that have come through my chemistry research lab have provided me with excellent results.

Ya, I have seen these types too. But they are at least valuable in research lab and have more of a novel skill set than pre-meds.

I've taught every type of student. All have their pros and cons. Pre-meds were usually very poor with time management. They would enter the lab once every couple weeks to do an experiment, of sub-par quality, and essentially do little to help the grad. students.

I like converting med students into researchers, public health people, etc, away from what their parents told them to do, esp since I’m doing my PhD at a private institution.

The attitudes of the eye roll inducing know-it-alls are actually worse imo. They break **** or confidently do a year’s worth of work that ends up being useless...

Both ends are bad haha

 

[Robin-jay]

I like converting med students into researchers, public health people, etc, away from what their parents told them to do, esp since I’m doing my PhD at a private institution.

I was a chemistry grad. student who planned on doing med. school after graduating, so I understood the desire to be a physician.

But when pre-meds would do like 10 hours a week, or less doing research, it makes you question why they were even trained in the first place. I'm not kidding when I say I would work as much as most pre-meds in our lab over the course of one weekend (I was able to get more done in 1 weekend than most were able to get done in a month).

The attitudes of the eye roll inducing know-it-alls are actually worse imo. They break **** or confidently do a year’s worth of work that ends up being useless...

"a years worth of work" is grossly exaggerating the amount of work they actually did. Our lab had excellent PI guidance, and graduate student guidance, so the undergrads were always doing a useful batch of reactions (either precursors my grad. reactions, or doing more important reactions as they got more competent (rare). However, many students never even got past the training stages of research, and when they did the precursor reactions, it usually took them 20 times longer than if I had done it myself.

I had maybe one competent pre-med undergrad. that actually did useful reactions for me. All the others either never truly completed training or were stuck trying precursor reactions for the grad. students (lack of competence to do more than that).

I enjoyed teaching and mentoring though.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

I was a chemistry grad. student who planned on doing med. school after graduating, so I understood the desire to be a physician.

But when pre-meds would do like 10 hours a week, or less doing research, it makes you question why they were even trained in the first place. I'm not kidding when I say I would work as much as most pre-meds in our lab over the course of one weekend (I was able to get more done in 1 weekend than most were able to get done in a month).



"a years worth of work" is grossly exaggerating the amount of work they actually did. Our lab had excellent PI guidance, and graduate student guidance, so the undergrads were always doing a useful batch of reactions (either precursors my grad. reactions, or doing more important reactions as they got more competent (rare). However, many students never even got past the training stages of research, and when they did the precursor reactions, it usually took them 20 times longer than if I had done it myself.

I had maybe one competent pre-med undergrad. that actually did useful reactions for me. All the others either never truly completed training or were stuck trying precursor reactions for the grad. students (lack of competence to do more than that).

I enjoyed teaching and mentoring though.

Did you finish your PhD? Or just apply into med school from the graduate program? Just curious.

Yeah, the hours is exactly the kind of crap I was referencing in the first post, lol. It’s unnerving. When you spend more time training than they work...haha

My ungrad university was pretty underfunded in a lot of departments, so it wasnt too rare to see labs without grad students or postdocs. Oof.

 

[Robin-jay]

Did you finish your PhD? Or just apply into med school from the graduate program? Just curious.

I opted for a masters into med school route.

Yeah, the hours is exactly the kind of crap I was referencing in the first post, lol. It’s unnerving. When you spend more time training than they work...haha

I have a natural tendency to like teaching and mentoring so it didn't bother me too much. Plus, it always looks good to say you mentored so-so students in a CV or academic setting to help buffer your applications.

But I do know what you mean, 90%+ of those mentored don't do much past the initial training TBH.

My ungrad university was pretty underfunded in a lot of departments, so it wasnt too rare to see labs without grad students or postdocs. Oof.

We had graduate students in every lab that I can remember. I'm sure there are times when they may have not been the case. Labs without grad. students would definitely be challenging. You would have no one to show you how to do "publishable" level research first hand (PI's usually too busy to show any reactions).

 

[DoctorOrdinary]

This thread is actually great insight into what research really entails. Nothing about it is clear cut and it's only up to me to want to accomplish something in the lab. I can now tell that I'm an investment in the lab right now, no matter how small my tasks are. They will allow me to do bigger and better things once I finish proper training and show true commitment to the goal of the research. With that being said, you guys can resume your conversation so I can keep gaining insight lol

@Lost In Transcription @Robin-jay

 

[Catalystik]

And finally, some tips:
1) Show up when you agree to- don’t ghost.
2) Bring a notebook and write down what you are told to do, so you don’t forget as easily. And clarify any steps you are confused about. DON’T continue with something you are uncertain about.
3) Attend lab meetings. Period. (unless you have class, etc)
4) Talk to your grad student about their work, and slowly try to integrate yourself into the lab.
5) ASK your grad student what they expect out of you: hours, write ups, etc. It feels weird but seriously clears up wishy washy issues before they start.

6) Ask if you can have a copy of the original grant proposal. Read the cited background papers.

7) (For others reading) If you are helping with an IRB approved project, ask to read the application.

 

[MyOdyssey]

@Robin-jay and @Lost In Transcription

How did you deal with requests for LORs from poor performing premeds and/or pre-PhDs in your lab? Did you refuse to write them, damn them with faint praise or damn them with seering truth?

 

[Robin-jay]

@Robin-jay and @Lost In Transcription

How did you deal with requests for LORs from poor performing premeds and/or pre-PhDs in your lab? Did you refuse to write them, damn them with faint praise or damn them with seering truth?

Anyone who asked me for a letter, I generously declined (in either my research lab or classes that I taught). Although I would have loved to practice writing LORs for many individuals!

The reason was because I was in "the process" of graduate school. Usually you want post-docs or PI's to write your letters. This is because PI's are professors who participate in research, who have a PhD. You want post-docs to write you letters because they also have a PhD.

However, if you're in the process of earning your PhD (such as being a PhD candidate in status), then your letter might have less weight than someone with PhD (post-doc or PI).

Most likely the PI is the best option.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Lucca]

PI is always the best option. If they don’t know you well, the person who supervised you should help comment on the letter

 

[Lost In Transcription]

@Robin-jay and @Lost In Transcription

How did you deal with requests for LORs from poor performing premeds and/or pre-PhDs in your lab? Did you refuse to write them, damn them with faint praise or damn them with seering truth?

As Lucca said, PhD students usually don’t write letters.

That said, the school of thought differs on whether secretly warning a program about a student is better or just flat out telling them you won’t write one. I think the latter is better as it saves everyone time. But that’s the job of the PI (with input from the PhD student)

 

[wholeheartedly]

6) Ask if you can have a copy of the original grant proposal. Read the cited background papers.

7) (For others reading) If you are helping with an IRB approved project, ask to read the application.

This is great advice! It can really help you get a solid understanding of things in an efficient manner.