what do you think of howard?

[ItsGavinC]

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Like Sprgrover said, let's keep it clean in here.

 

[JohnUNLV]

HBCU's are not rooted in discrimination, the mission is to educate and train African Americans, and there is a subtle difference between preference and discrimination. I seriously doubt you have ever encountered one of these institutions or have a close relationship with anyone from one. The only reason you are even cognizant of these institutions is because there are only 54 dental schools, and you wanted to use Howard and Meharry as one of your safety schools. I am not speaking of Affirmative Action, all I am saying is that these PRIVATE institutions have the right to decide if they want to further the education of a certain segment of the population which was neglected until 40 years ago overtly and is still neglected today subtly as drhobie pointed out, then let it be.

Could you be any more wrong or ******ed?

Once again, for the 3rd or 4th time in this thread, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH JUST THE DENTAL PROGRAM! We are talking about the entire universities, can you people please pay attention? The entire school is racist and blatently discriminates. There is no way to justify that except with more racist ignorance.

I am cognizant of these racist schools because I have always strongly opposed them. I have never and would never apply to any racist school.

By your thinking, you would be ok with every other private school only accepted whites huh? Yeah right, you and everyone else would have a **** fit and you know it. Try being consistent and drop the contradictions.

 

[JohnUNLV]

Why are you so hostile? I doubt that your "toughness" and name calling would happen in real life. I guess it is the built in anonymity of a public forum. Some things people say in here would never be said in real life with that person sitting in front of you.
How can you tell me I don't know what I am talking about? You act as though you are a black male, and have lived the life that I have. I don't care what you went through as a child, you don't know how it is to live as a "black" person in the US. I'll be damn that someone that wasn't even born in America can tell me what issuses I faced as I grew up, and what I still face today!!

I'm not hostile at all. If I am speaking sternly it is because I believe strongly in my principles.

Did you just become an "e-thug" LOL. You doubt my toughness, yet you dont know me. You assume I'm the "e-thug" yet I'm not bullying anyone. And how the hell do you know I wouldnt say this to your face? As a matter of fact, I brought up this very discussion in my Gender, Race and Class class just yesterday, and I said the very same things in a room mixed with every race, including several black males. In fact, those black males mostly agreed with me and they admitted they dont want a CRUTCH as you seem to want. They actually had pride and wanted to make it on their own and without handouts.

I act like a black male? What the hell are you talking about? I never said anything to insinuate that I was a black male or even trying to be black. You are the godfather of assumptions bro, constantly ASSuming things about everyone with a differing opinion.

And 786 doesnt have to be born in America to feel racism and give her opinion. It seems like you would rather live in a dictatorship where no one else's opinions could be heard. By the way, this is a public forum where anyone can be heard, so if you dont like what she is saying, ignore her or at least respond with SOMETHING intelligent for once.

 

[JohnUNLV]

I don't see how Howard can justify having race be such an overwhelmingly large factor in their admissions however. If there goal is to get minorities to become doctors then it would be much more appropriate for them to work from the outside as advocates. To take a whole dental school and declare that its purpose is predominatly inclusive of some races and predominatly exclusive of others, well, it smacks of racism.

Brilliant point. I am all for organizations helping certain people do certain things. For instance, most schools have pre-health professional committees which write letters on behalf of students and guide them through their coursework and give them tips. Well, why cant there be a proactive group for certain people who would help them with the cost of applications, preparing personal statements, study materials for the DAT and so forth. Hell, I WANT one of those groups for me! How much easier would everything be for all us pre-dents if we had some help in coordinating everything?

 

[JohnUNLV]

Wow this is such an interesting discussion. I do agree that often HBCUs don't become appealing to the "majority race" until medical school, dental school, law school and other professional programs. Often the tuition is cheaper than other private schools and I may be wrong but it seems like these schools are appealing to a good portion of the "majority race" only when other options have been exhausted (meaning you couldn't get in anywhere else). I hope that we can always look to HBCUs like Meharry and Howard to give Black students a chance to pursue their dreams just like everyone else.

Maybe the reason the majority race isnt as interested in going to these schools is because they dont want to be outcasts and discriminated against. Why would I apply to a school where I have less than a 10% chance of getting in?

Also, black students DO have the chance to pursue their dreams just like everyone else. What country do you live in? Because I live in America, where anyone can do anything they desire, IF they try hard and persevere.

 

[JohnUNLV]

All I can say is that I am glad Howard and Meharry exist.... to some extent. Come on guys, "regular" dental schools denied admission to hispanic/black people to based on their race for a long time.... at the same time, the population of Blacks and Hispanics is continually rising, and people from underserved areas are still not receiving oral health care because of the lack of black/hispanics dentists in those areas and for other reasons... From what I know, the only way to try to reduce those health disparities was for Howard and Meharry to have their OWN schools....since they know that people who tend to graduate from their schools will go back to their communities and practice.

Is there some statistic I dont know about which explicitly states that a majority of their graduates work in urban/low income areas? Why does everyone assume that just because you are a minority that you will work in the ghettoes and slums and provide care to people who might rob you the next day? Why isnt it safe to assume then that students who graduate from HBC will actually want to practice in nicer areas where they can have greater success?

If there are studies or statistics on all of your assumptions, I would love to see/read about it.

 

[JohnUNLV]

"I hope that we can always look to HBCUs like Meharry and Howard to give Black students a chance to pursue their dreams just like everyone else."

Yeah...it is good. The idea tough to swallow, because it presumes that black students need a helping hand to get in. But hell...if I had someone offering to make it easier for me, I would take it.

Exactly, why would anyone want a crutch? That is embarrassing. I would think that intelligent, college educated students would have more pride then ask for a handout and be spoon fed.

 

[JohnUNLV]

...and in the end, these students will have to take (and pass) the same qualifying exams as everyone else in order to practice. Some may disagree with who HBCUs accept into their programs but none of these schools are in the business of handing over doctoral degrees. These students earn their degrees through hard work and determination just like everyone else and if they truly don't deserve to be there and can't cut it academically, then they will not make it to the end.

Just taking the same classes and exams does NOT mean that every student who graduates will have the exact same skills/knowledge. If you get C's or even worse on all of your exam and barely graduate with a 2.0, yet I get all A's and a 4.0 does that mean we are equal? Hell no, the 4.0 student is probably going to be a much better clinician with far superior knowledge and skills. Yet, they will each have the exact same degree.

Let me ask you all this...would you go to a dentist who you know did poorly in school and barely graduated? Or would you go to the guy who was top of his class at a non AA school? If you say the first guy, you're kidding yourself and lying to all of us.

 

[JohnUNLV]

My lack of knowledge? thats hillarious you HICK. Ive done more in Dentistry in the past three years than you will accomplish in your ignorant lifetime. Your attitude only perpetuates ignorance and breads hatred. Sadly theres more people like you than there should be but thats life.

So, let me get this straight. I want freedom and equality for everyone, and a level playing field for all races, yet I'm a hick and have a racist attitude? Can you read or even comprehend?

I dont really know what you've done in dentistry, nor do I care. I havent done anything in dentistry, so what does that mean? Absolutely nothing. Because I will be a dentist in 4 years and I will be a fantastic one and do a great job. Thanks for your concern though 🙂

And again you throw "ignorant" out there. I thought I already gave you the proper definition to that word, however it seems you 'cant reed good'. Try calming down and actually making good points about a serious topic and not attacking me, tough guy.

 

[JohnUNLV]

howard is a school established to bring more african americans into field of dentistry because they are under-represented in the profession.

that's that.

what's up with all these useless arguments and counter-arguments that boils down to pretty much nothing but another anti-racism/pseudo-racism paradigm?

Howard was not established for that reason. Howard was established by racist whites who believed in segregation and didnt want blacks at their schools.

Howard and other HBC did once serve a good purpose, because blacks used to be invisible and never got anything. However, times have changed. I am NOT saying that there isnt still racism, of course there is, but thats not the point. The point is that today people have the ability and chance to do what they want without being held down by the white man. So, man up and take Super C's advise, he makes great points.

 

[JohnUNLV]

Let's not get into semantics here. You can call it whatever you want but when an institution has an agenda that clearly prefers and admits based on race, that's discrimination....period. Even if it is for "good" reasons, it's the wrong thing to do and is taking our society in the wrong direction. I'm not talking about recruiting or having workshops that help prepare black applicants by improving their GPA or DAT scores or actively reaching more black individuals and encouraging them to apply. That's fine and I think is an extremely viable possible solution to the under representation of black dental students.

The fact that Howard is a private school is completely irrelevant. They can not do whatever they want and admit whoever they want. If a private school openly preferred white applicants they would get crucified!

As far as people "losing spots" to AA. Anytime you take race into consideration and give it any weight whatsoever to the process of selecting an applicant into dental school, you are taking away spots from people who should have got in. I base this fact on my belief that race should not be considered a relevant attribute and should be completely thrown out of the decision. In fact, it shouldn't even be on the application.. along with sexual preference, height, eye color, penis size, number of birth marks, finger nail length and a myriad of other completely irrelevant statistics a person has that has no bearing on his/her ability and desire to complete and/or succeed in dental school.

Now, if you disagree with this then you believe in discrimination based on race. You may even have a "good" reason for doing so but at least call it what it is and don't let "diversity", the buzz word of the last few decades, confuse you to what's actually going on.

Another fantastic post. You either agree with racism and disrimination based on race or you dont. Pretty simple.

 

[Drill2Fill]

Howard was not established for that reason. Howard was established by racist whites who believed in segregation and didnt want blacks at their schools.

Howard and other HBC did once serve a good purpose, because blacks used to be invisible and never got anything. However, times have changed. I am NOT saying that there isnt still racism, of course there is, but thats not the point. The point is that today people have the ability and chance to do what they want without being held down by the white man. So, man up and take Super C's advise, he makes great points.

Funny how you say that racist whites established howard and meharry, now whites are the ones angry that they can't get a equal chance to get in. If you look at the whole picture howard and meharry can only accept a small fraction of all the blacks that apply to dental school each year. So how can it be a crutch for all blacks applying? You act as though all blacks that apply get into dental school, when the fact is only 12% do.
And to your statement that all the graduates are subpar and that you would never go to one. Do you know what you dentist's board score is? Most people don't, they don't even care what school they went to!!! If they pass the boards they are competent.

 

[Drill2Fill]

Can anyone see my avatar? I keep getting a red "X" in it's place. I have replaced it twice, but it keeps doing that after a few post.

 

[howui3]

Can anyone see my avatar? I keep getting a red "X" in it's place. I have replaced it twice, but it keeps doing that after a few post.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/announcement.php?f=17

 

[JohnUNLV]

Funny how you say that racist whites established howard and meharry, now whites are the ones angry that they can't get a equal chance to get in. If you look at the whole picture howard and meharry can only accept a small fraction of all the blacks that apply to dental school each year. So how can it be a crutch for all blacks applying? You act as though all blacks that apply get into dental school, when the fact is only 12% do.
And to your statement that all the graduates are subpar and that you would never go to one. Do you know what you dentist's board score is? Most people don't, they don't even care what school they went to!!! If they pass the boards they are competent.

I never said it was a crutch for ALL black applying. That was you sticking words in my mouth yet again and ASSuming wrong. It is a crutch to expect a free handout JUST because you're black and you're "being held down by the white man" blah blah blah.

I act as though all blacks that apply to dental school get in? When the hell did I say that or even insinuate as such? You are out of your mind bro, I don't know if you are actually reading my posts or not because I have never said anything even remotely similar.

Again, I never said that ALL the graduates are subpar. God, can you not read either? Jesus. I said IF one student graduates with poor scores and another with good scores who would you rather see. Its called a hypothetical question.

And the fact that most people dont know what their doctors' board scores are is completely irrelevant and besides the point.

If they pass the boards they are EXPECTED to be competent, that doesnt mean its a guarantee. Someone who paid more attention in class, did better on tests and has a great capacity to learn and understand will probably be MORE competent.

Please do not continue to put words in my mouth and say I said things that I didnt. If you want to quote me, please feel free to do so but at least respond to things i actually said.

 

[JohnUNLV]

Wow, 12 hours and no irrelevant responses? lol

 

[PDizzle]

Wow, 12 hours and no irrelevant responses? lol

Yeah!!!! We win!!!! LOL j/k

 

[JohnUNLV]

Yeah!!!! We win!!!! LOL j/k

I'm going to call the game at the 24 hour mark! haha

 

[Drill2Fill]

"If you are the son of a man who had a wealthy estate and you inherit your father's estate, you have to pay off the debts that your father incurred before he died. The only reason that the present generation of white Americans are in a position of economic strength...is because their fathers worked our fathers for over 400 years with no pay...We were sold from plantation to plantation like you sell a horse, or a cow, or a chicken, or a bushel of wheat...All that money...is what gives the present generation of American whites the ability to walk around the earth with their chest out...like they have some kind of economic ingenuity.

"Your father isn't here to pay. My father isn't here to collect. But I'm here to collect and you're here to pay."

-Malcolm X

Do I win????

 

[JohnUNLV]

"If you are the son of a man who had a wealthy estate and you inherit your father's estate, you have to pay off the debts that your father incurred before he died. The only reason that the present generation of white Americans are in a position of economic strength...is because their fathers worked our fathers for over 400 years with no pay...We were sold from plantation to plantation like you sell a horse, or a cow, or a chicken, or a bushel of wheat...All that money...is what gives the present generation of American whites the ability to walk around the earth with their chest out...like they have some kind of economic ingenuity.

"Your father isn't here to pay. My father isn't here to collect. But I'm here to collect and you're here to pay."

-Malcolm X

Do I win????

"Malcolm then proceeded to attack and beat a group of innocent white men"

No, you lost about 8 hours ago, the match was called, sorry.

Malcolm was excommunicated from the nation of Islam for a reason. Actually, many reasons. He is an extremely poor example or face for your cause. You would be much better off choosing the brilliant Dr. King. Not some angry, violent racist like Malcolm X.

"The common enemy is the white man."
-Malcolm X

 

[Drill2Fill]

No, you lost about 8 hours ago, the match was called, sorry.

You must have no life. Is this the only thing you have to look foward to everyday? Go find a hobby.

 

[Drill2Fill]

"Malcolm then proceeded to attack and beat a group of innocent white men"

-Malcolm X

Where is the proof for that? Or is that your sorry attempt at a joke. I believe that it was your people that went around killing innocent people durning civil rights.

 

[786mine]

JohnUNLV, wow you pretty much responded to every comment related to you.
ElDentistFuturo, ...

I think we are all getting sidetracked. Let's get back to the main point of AA. So far I have not seen a single example of how AA is either beneficital to the soceity or the person who gets the benefit of AA. ElDentistFuturo, would you care to give me a decent example on how AA is benefitial?

I act like a black male? What the hell are you talking about? I never said anything to insinuate that I was a black male or even trying to be black. You are the godfather of assumptions bro, constantly ASSuming things about everyone with a differing opinion.

And 786 doesnt have to be born in America to feel racism and give her opinion. It seems like you would rather live in a dictatorship where no one else's opinions could be heard. By the way, this is a public forum where anyone can be heard, so if you dont like what she is saying, ignore her or at least respond with SOMETHING intelligent for once.

I don't know your race, and I asked you before what your race was.. now I find it that I should not have been open about my race as it is nothing more then a means to "put the other one down". Anyhow to respond to your comment, racism does exist. And I believe, I never said that people don't face racism. Blacks, Latino, Asians, Arabs, and believe it or not, even White people; we all face rasim. Whenever a group is outside it's own, it WILL face difficulty and crap. Do you think all Arabs or all Muslims are terrorists? Do you think all LDS are poligamists? Do you think all Christians are Evengelicals? The point here to note is this, AA is not the answer to people who have suffered from racism. Like is has been said before, AA is a form of reverse decrimination.

I am asking for people who are pro-AA to give me solid examples about the benefits there are of using AA in giving out positions based on one's creed, race or gender. A large chuck of the student body here at the UNLV SDM are are white and prodominately LDS. For some reason it is looked down for not having enough "diversity", I think it's all a bunch of bull. Diversity is one thing, but having the best student out there is another thing. So far we only have one black studnet in the entire school, so what? That does not mean the school is pro-white, it just means that out of all the students who applied only one black guy was qualified enough to meed the merit. Let me remind you, UNLV is not all that perfect either. UNLV's adcom gives very special preferrance to female instate, and if you are a female of nevada resident and are a mintory on top, you are guarenteed to get in. Seeing the class of 2009 and the the females of that class, majority of them are not even worthy of being a student, much less a dental student, anyhow that is alltogether a different topic. Let's see what responces we get to this.

 

[colt]

"Your people"---he must be an 89 yr old former leader of the KKK 😆 You've seriously lost some credibility with your recent post. The "your people" did this or "your people" did that are statements which add division amoung races.

 

[Drill2Fill]

Sorry. Some of my best friends are white. (lol). I just took offense to him saying that malcolm x killed white people, when he advocated self defense, at a time when many blacks were being killed, beaten, etc.

 

[JohnUNLV]

Where is the proof for that? Or is that your sorry attempt at a joke. I believe that it was your people that went around killing innocent people durning civil rights.

Actually it was a very funny joke, except it flew right over your head. MX was extremely violent and was in many brawls/riots, a lot of which HE started. He was a racist and did nothing for your cause. Dr. King is who you should look up to and have as your avatar.

 

[JohnUNLV]

Sorry. Some of my best friends are white. (lol). I just took offense to him saying that malcolm x killed white people, when he advocated self defense, at a time when many blacks were being killed, beaten, etc.

except this isnt a thread about the civil rights era. You brought malcolm into this.. which you shouldnt have, because he was a violent racist.

Lets get back on track. You were trying (desperately) to give a single example of house racism is good? And "sticking it to the white man" is ok?

 

[JohnUNLV]

You must have no life. Is this the only thing you have to look foward to everyday? Go find a hobby.

I'm not going to insult you back because you've already proven your level of intelligence, or lack thereof. However, in defense of myself (as if i actually needed to), I enjoy this debate because it is personal to me and I enjoy seeing your responses, however pathetic they may be. Preach on...

 

[Drill2Fill]

Actually it was a very funny joke, except it flew right over your head. MX was extremely violent and was in many brawls/riots, a lot of which HE started. He was a racist and did nothing for your cause. Dr. King is who you should look up to and have as your avatar.

You say that, where is the proof of all the brawls and riots? You say things as if I am suppose to take your words as truth.

 

[Drill2Fill]

except this isnt a thread about the civil rights era. You brought malcolm into this.. which you shouldnt have, because he was a violent racist.

Lets get back on track. You were trying (desperately) to give a single example of house racism is good? And "sticking it to the white man" is ok?

AA isn't rascism, in fact plenty of white females have benefitted from AA. Take a look at pharmacy, the application pool is 40% female, and 60% male, but the average class make-up is 50% each.

 

[Drill2Fill]

except this isnt a thread about the civil rights era. You brought malcolm into this.. which you shouldnt have, because he was a violent racist.

Lets get back on track. You were trying (desperately) to give a single example of house racism is good? And "sticking it to the white man" is ok?

From the apa

Does present-day racism justify maintaining affirmative action?

Psychologists and other social scientists have documented the many forms of racism that continue to mar marketplace employment decisions. Today these forms of racism are more evident in less overt yet widely held beliefs, attitudes, and prejudices than they were in the past. The subtle nature of these forms of racism suggests that passive EEO programs may not be sufficient to prevent discrimination.

Contemporary, more indirect, forms of prejudice can be divided into two types (Dovidio and Gaertner, 1995).

* Aversive racism refers to negative feelings that lead to avoidance but are likely to be justified by some other reason. For example, a white male television station manager fails to hire a black applicant for the position of news anchor because he fears the audience will not respond to a black news anchor, but he justifies his decision by saying it was based on economics.


* Symbolic racism refers to the development early in life of negative feelings people have toward members of other groups. Such feelings persist into adulthood and are associated with beliefs that are expressed symbolically rather than overtly (e.g., in opposition to busing).

Aversive racists typically do not evaluate Blacks more negatively than Whites, but they usually rate Blacks less favorably than Whites (Dovidio and Gaertner, 1995).

* Discrimination is more likely to occur when Blacks compete for jobs or promotions with Whites who hold similar qualifications. The same holds true when highly qualified women compete with highly qualified men.


* Aversive racism is more likely to affect minorities adversely when the latter attempt to advance to positions superior in rank to those held by Whites.

Affirmative action is essential for combating the effects of subtle forms of racism for a number of reasons (Dovidio and Gaertner, 1995).

* Affirmative action is outcome-based; issues of intention are not central to the issue.


* Affirmative action involves systematic monitoring of disparities in employment practices toward different groups.


* When they are successful, affirmative action programs lead to the establishment of clear norms by organizations and institutions regarding the importance of full equality for everyone in the workplace.

 

[Drill2Fill]

I'm not going to insult you back because you've already proven your level of intelligence, or lack thereof. However, in defense of myself (as if i actually needed to), I enjoy this debate because it is personal to me and I enjoy seeing your responses, however pathetic they may be. Preach on...

I believe you were the first one to show your immaturity, by calling me names. I believe it started on page 3, maybe 2.

 

[Sprgrover]

This thread has ceased to be productive. Closing.